Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - BRYAN KOHBERGER WORE PLASTIC GLOVES TO GROCERY STORE AFTER MURDERS?

Episode Date: May 13, 2024

Ashlin Couch, former roommate of the Idaho students killed, is speaking out. Couch transferred her lease at 1122 King Road to Xana Kernodle just six months before Kernodle, Ethan Chapin, Madison Mogen, and Kaylee Goncalves were slain in the home. Couch remembers getting an alert from the University and immediately reaching out to friends still in Moscow. Couch’s last text to Mogen before learning of her death was “Are you OK?” Couch followed up in a group chat with friends, “Has anyone heard from Maddie?” Couch says the thought that the murders could have happened earlier is unsettling, commenting that ‘you never know how long someone is watching your house.’ We also learn a friend of an officer working on the Bryan Kohberger murder investigation says Kohberger was very careful in the days before his arrest. The source says the cop followed Kohberger in Albrightsville, Pennsylvania, and observed him wearing plastic gloves while picking up groceries at a local Giant store. The cop also said that Kohberger’s cellphone pings matched the movements of the victims for weeks before the murders. Joining Nancy Grace Today: Mark Tate - Trial Lawyer / Legal Analyst - Tate Law Group- TateLawGroup.com Caryn L. Stark – Psychologist, Renowned TV and Radio Trauma Expert and Consultant; Instagram: carynpsych/FB: Caryn Stark Private Practice Chris McDonough – Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective, coldcasefoundation.org,  Host of YouTube channel: “The Interview Room”  Joe Scott Morgan – Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, “Blood Beneath My Feet,” and Host: “Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;” Twitter/X: @JoScottForensic Dave Mack- CrimeOnline Investigative Reporter   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Breaking news tonight. Did Idaho slave suspect Brian Koberger actually wear plastic surgical gloves in the grocery store for weeks after the quadruple murders to avoid leaving a trail of evidence? And did Koberger's cell phone pings track along with the victims for weeks before the murders? This as the victim's former roommate breaks her silence to reveal a final text to slave it to Maddie Mogan in an eerie premonition. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. I texted like our group of friends and I just had said, has anyone heard from Maddie? And I remember like my last text message to her was

like, are you okay? And I feel like right then and there, I kind of just knew that something was wrong. That emotional sound of the former roommate from our friends at KXLY, you were hearing Ashlyn couch as she desperately tried to reach Maddie Mogut, having no idea what had happened. Again, thank you for being with us. A lot happening in the Brian Koberger case. Joining me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now. But first, listen to this.

Ashlyn Couch transferred her lease at 1122 King Road to Zanner Cronodal just six months before Cronodal, Ethan Chapin, Madison Mogan and Kaylee Gonzalez were slain in the home. Couch remembers getting an alert from the university and immediately reaching out to friends still in Moscow. Couch's last text to Mogan before learning of her death was, are you OK? Couch followed up in a group chat with friends. Has anyone heard from Maddie? Couch says the thought that the murders could have happened earlier is unsettling, commenting that you never know how long someone is watching your house. Wow. Again, you are hearing from KXLY. That was Ashlyn Couch speaking, trying again desperately to get in touch with we now know murder victim Maddie Mogan. With me in all star panels, straight out to Dave Mack, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Dave, explain to me

the time sequence as to what we are hearing from Ashlyn Couch, the former roommate there at King Road. Well, Ashlyn was talking about how six months before this happened, she actually was moving. And so Zanna Cronodal took over her part of the lease on the King Road home, got her room. But Ashlyn was still in contact with her friends from there. And so during that time period when the murders happened, an alert from the college went out and said, we've had a homicide near campus. And immediately Ashlyn Couch thought of her friends in the King Road house.

That's why she was reaching out right away. Guys, this young girl, Ashlyn Couch, now speaking, will she be a witness? What can she tell us? Anything about the King Road address at all? And, you know, to Chris McDonough, director of the Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective with over 300 homicides under his belt and host of the popular YouTube channel, The Interview Room. You know, Chris McDonough, the issue here, as far as Ashton Couch goes, the fact that she had a premonition, that's probably not going to be admissible at trial. The fact that she tried desperately to reach anybody at the King Road address,

specifically trying to find out what was happening with Maddie Mogan, and Maddie would not respond. That may not come into evidence. However, her knowledge of the home, and I found it very curious what she said, when she said, you never know how long somebody has been watching your house. Yeah, Nancy, that statement in and of itself is fascinating. I mean, the fact that she has a premonition as well, you know, post the homicides here that, you know, she's thinking when I was there, could somebody have been watching me and or obviously her roommates there. So that in and of itself, I think the authorities, you the authorities need to dig into that if they haven't already.

That that's pretty telling, you know, hand in hand with what you were talking about is potential evidence. phone was traveling along with his wife, Maggie Murdoch, before her phone was thrown unceremoniously out of his vehicle the night of the murders. Now, reports that we're going to hear evidence that his phone, Brian Koberger, was spotted in cell phone pings in and around where the victims were in the weeks leading up to the murders. To Mark Tate, joining me, high-profile lawyer out of Savannah, partner with the Tate Law Group. Mark, thank you for being with us. It's my pleasure. I know that it has been stated over and over now, contrary to what was first put out there by some of the victims' family members, that Koberger did not there by some of the victim's family members,

that Koberger did not specifically stalk any of the victims. But what do you make of that potential evidence that where they went on several occasions, his cell phone would ping as well? You think that's just a coincidence, Mark Tate? Well, it may be. You remember he went to school just eight miles away. And if I was defending this case, I would say, you know, if you're going to use cell phone pings to prosecute him, then you have to look into the fact that he has put forth and acceptably under Idaho law that he has an alibi, which is he has to state a specific place where he was and the witnesses who will put him there. The witnesses here are the cell phone pings. So the problem that we have here is that the prosecution is going to use cell phone pings to put him stalking these victims. Then they're going to have to deal with the fact that he says those same pings put him in the woods stargazing or whatever thing it is he's going to claim he's

doing. And so I think that the cell phone pings may be helpful to and interestingly so to both sides, because remember, the defendants here, the defense counsel has a job to maintain that this man is innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And they are fighting very hard. They have not made this easy for the prosecution. When you're between a rock and a hard spot, do you just immediately regurgitate innocent until proven guilty? We all know that everybody watching this program right now is a legal eagle. They want to know the very latest in every single case. We all know he's presumed until proven innocent. And my question to you, which you very skillfully evaded is if his cell phone is moving along where they go, if they go to this food truck, there's his cell phone. If they go to that restaurant, there he is again. I mean, isn't

it true, Dave Mack, that at one bar he was actually asked to leave because he was making female patrons feel totally skeeved out by asking them questions such as, hey, what's your home address? Oh, yeah. He freaked out. He actually scared people or women in this bar to a point where they actually made a note on the tickets when he had been there previously. It wasn't just one time, Nancy. He had been to this bar several times. And each time it got progressively worse to where none of the women wanted to wait on him anymore. So, you know, to you, Karen Stark joining us. and boy, do we need a shrink. Karen Stark joining us, our renowned TV radio trauma expert, psychologist, consultant. It's KarenStark.com. Karen with a C. Karen, I'm going to

circle back to the pings potentially traveling along together. And Karen, I haven't even gotten to this dude wearing gloves to the grocery store. I don't mean gloves because it's cold outside. I mean, surgeon gloves. Okay. To the grocery store, Karen Stark. This is not during COVID where people would, you know, spray 409 on their canned goods before they touch them. This isn't now. They're here and now. For weeks after the murders, this guy, Brian Koberger, was wearing surgical gloves everywhere he went. I'll go back to that. But what do you make?

And I'd like to hear the roommate, the former roommate, one more time. This is Ashlyn Couch on a very emotional statement. And this is from our friends at KXLY. Listen. I texted like our group of friends and I just had said, has anyone heard from Maddie? And I remember like my last text message to her was like, are you okay? And I feel like right then and there, I kind of just knew that something was wrong. Karen Stark, how many times have we heard that, where a victim's family member or friend would know instinctively that something was horribly wrong? And there's the whole issue of survivor's guilt. Karen Stark, if I had called her earlier, if I had asked her out that night, if we had been at what,

fill in the blank, if, and then fill in the blank. That's what a lot of the friends are going through. Of course they are, Nancy, because we all know what that's like when you think, if I had only been able to. And what's interesting, we all have, I'm pretty sure, that experience of you have a feeling you have an instinct that something is wrong and I know it happens to me we used to happen with my mother all the time it happens with my brother my husband sometimes you are so connected to people that you just have a feeling that something is going on with them I think it's even happened between the two of us.

I've had that with you. You've had it with me. When you know somebody really well, you are connected to them over distance and you can feel it. And that's what she's describing. We can all relate to that. Wearing the gloves, that's him protecting himself. This is a man in total control, has to be on top of everything. And now he's wearing gloves so that you can't

get near his DNA. I'm not surprised about that. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Joe Scott Morgan joining me, Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of the hit series Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, thank you for being with us. I know in your line of business, having been to over 10,000 death scenes in your career, you have had many people say, I knew something was wrong. And it's one thing to embellish the facts as you look back retrospectively. But this young girl, Ashley, was actually frantically trying to text all of her friends, trying to find out where is Maddie. Because, Joe Scott, you and I review a lot of evidence, it was atypical of Maddie not to respond.

And that struck concern as the hours ticked by. It gives you pause, I think, when you're conducting an investigation. If someone deviates from their normal day-to-day routines, and particularly when you're talking about responding to friends that are considered to be within your intimate circle, that's something that would give an individual pause. But Nancy, I have another kind of chilling little side note about this.

And this young lady, you know, she moved on from her lease. And do you know when she moved on from her lease and turned it over? It approximates almost the same exact time that Coburger shows up in Washington. This goes back to, I think, probably June, May, perhaps. And that's another little chilling piece to this. Can you imagine now, retrospectively, that Ashlyn is sitting back and thinking about this, that, you know, almost one of those there but for the grace of God go I moments. And again, it adds another layer of horror to this, Nancy.

You know, one thing I've really hated throughout this, just got Morgan, is the way that some of the victims have been portrayed as like party girls, tramps, staying out too late, drinking. That's not true. Yes, they were out that night. They were heading into the Thanksgiving weekend. They were not out any later than any other student would be on a party night. None of these girls have arrest histories. Nothing like that. They're all making good grades. They're beloved by their family. And you know what, Jessica Morgan, as I always say, birds of a feather flock together.

When I look at Ashlyn Couch and I hear her speak, that tells me not only who she is, but who her friends are. I mean, Joscott, I don't see you hanging out with the dope dealer down at the corner. Why? Because you have nothing in common. In college, in law school, people go, hey, did you go to that party Friday night? I'm like, no, I was studying. I got two jobs and I've got to get through law school and I got to pass the bar on the first try.

That's not what I was doing. I had my eye on a different prize. When I look at Aisling Couch, the good girl, that tells me who these victims were. And I've had it about up to here with people trashing them or their parents or their mom. I think it's so wrong. And that is going to happen at this trial unless the judge wakes up and pays attention. One of the things I find fascinating about her interaction and particularly where she was domiciled in this location.

And, you know, you were mentioning earlier, could she testify? This is what I think personally that she's going to testify to kind of the standard rattle and hum of what it was like living in that home. Remember, as you had mentioned, talking about party and all this sort of thing. One of the things that came out early on in this case was this thought that this was party central, right? No one knows the codes to the door. It's always open. The sliders are open. People can come and go as they please. Well, Ashlyn, I think, kind of from a historic standpoint, she will be able to talk about that as she lived there. And this is not something that perhaps just occurred out of the blue. If this was a party location, it had been a party location for a while. And I think that that's going to be rather probative in this case.

Hey, and another thing about that, Joe Scott Morgan, I will never forget. I moved into off-campus housing with some other co-eds. This is an undergrad. And I had my parents come visit. I got it all ready and cleaned it, everything. Well, wouldn't you know, this was on a Saturday night. They were coming Sunday after church. I was waiting on them. Little did I know that the guys below me, I lived on the top floor, the SAEs, I had no idea who they were. I never knew them. Had had a huge kegger in the front yard

and had somebody had spray painted curse words all on the interior of where my parents walked in. I'm not even going to say what they were, but they alluded to sex acts. And my parents walked in and see this in red spray paint. I had not even seen, I was, you know, mortified. So I think you're right. This girl, Ashton Couch, could testify to, you say, the hum and the flow of living there. But I was thinking about something else, Joe Scott. I was thinking about, you know, that sliding glass door that Chris McDonough and I kept looking at, wondering if that was the point of entry. I wonder if she could testify if it locked, if it was easily accessible. And there's one on each level. Were there ever alarms in the home? So many things also during these parties, could somebody sneak in and out that wasn't

invited? You see where I'm headed? She is really a Pandora's box of information about the murder scene. Yeah, she is. And, you know, you talk about the functionality of the stores, access and opportunity. Of course, she's going to be the only one to be able to tell that tale now, isn't she, Nancy? Because we can't go back to the physical structure. Well, you've got the two roommates that survived, remember? Yeah, we do. But I think that perhaps in this particular case, you know, when it gets down to it, can she actually, and again, this goes back to history, if the door was not functioning, the lock did not work, how far back in time does she go as like this place, her place of residence?

How long had it been, for instance, if it was, how long had it not been functioning? I'd like to know the answer to that question. And the points of access. Could someone be heard coming in through that door? Again, acoustically, she's going to be able to testify to that. A friend of an officer working the Brian Koberger murder investigation says Koberger was very careful in the days before his arrest. The source says the cop followed Kohlberger in Albrightville, Pennsylvania and observed him wearing plastic gloves while picking up groceries at a local giant store. The cop also said that Kohlberger's cell phone pings matched the movements of the victims for weeks before the murders. Oh, just wait till the jury hears this. Listen, you cannot under the law,

under the U.S. Constitution, as it has been interpreted through case law, cases that have occurred after the Constitution, of course, you cannot bring in a suspect, a defendant's bad reputation. You cannot bring in evidence of bad acts unless they can be verified. And they are similar to the case in chief and were in a timely manner. But here, when the police surveillance, if this is confirmed, police surveillance are following Koberger and they see him wearing plastic gloves into the grocery store, apparently wearing plastic surgical type gloves for weeks after the murders. Why? And you're going to hate this Mark Tate, which makes me super happy. Mark Tate, renowned defense attorney. You know what I love to tell a jury?

If you don't know a horse, look at his track record. Number one, while these same cops were watching Koberger, they knew they were going to arrest him. They were trying to get DNA evidence. They already had some DNA evidence. Now they needed the dad's DNA evidence. Driving along with Koberger, the dad's just chatting away like nothing's wrong. The Koberger is like, what the hell? Why are the cops pulling us over? Okay. Stay with me. They're watching Koberger and they see Koberger outside putting the family trash in the neighbor's trash cans, the dumpster, wearing gloves. Wait, not done yet.

Not done yet. There were other times he's seen wearing gloves. Why? Why is he wearing gloves all the time, Mark Tate? And how do you think that is going to affect a jury? Oh, I know what it was. It came to me. Wait a minute. I, I know what it was. It came to me. Wait a minute.

I got to tell you one more. So when they arrest Koberger, when they arrest him, when they go into his parents' home in the Poconos, they go in,

it's like two, three, four o'clock in the morning. Koberger's standing there in the kitchen. Why is he up and everybody else is asleep

in the middle of the night in shorts and surgical gloves? I don't know, Nancy. Didn't you tell me you got up at 3.30 this morning Why is he up and everybody else is asleep in the middle of the night? And shorts. I don't know, Nancy. Didn't you tell me you got up at 3.30 this morning? Well, no one's checking out what you're wearing at 3 o'clock in the morning. I can tell you this much. I didn't have all surgical gloves. Wasn't gloves.

So here I've got three instances, and that's just off the top of my head. What if the cops can tell me about more instances? You've got three instances of him wearing gloves. And wait, wait, in one instance, he was throwing trash away. Can you think of a better reason to wear gloves now? Yeah. In the other instances. So the cops can't get my DNA after a quadruple murder. That's a good reason. Yeah, I understand that. No, I got you. But maybe throwing trash away, it's okay to wear gloves. I

don't know. That's not something I think I'd rest my hat on as a prosecutor. However, every single time that you mentioned, well, then you might have a problem in this case. I mean, you know, you're not prosecuting it. So every single time that a prosecutor comes up with a new piece of evidence that requires witnesses to get in, as a defense lawyer, I find that to be wonderful because that gives me a whole nother opportunity to ask questions that may or may not help me argue that there is a reason to have a doubt about the guilt of this man. And every witness is vulnerable. And some of these people are going to rely on are not experienced in handling the cross-examination that I intend to bring them. And if I'm able to say at the end of the case that the prosecutor relies on this person who's unreliable, then why should you convict? We saw it happen. You

and I saw it happen together when a man who murdered a woman and the man who was driving his Ferrari around town walked because a glove didn't fit. And I'm just saying that there is no foregone conclusion in any jury trial. And these defense lawyers are going to put this prosecution team to the test, clearly. To Chris McDonough joining me, veteran homicide detective and star. No, no, no, no. I'm going to somebody that's, let me just say, a little less impeachable. Chris McDonough, have you ever heard, which apparently they did not teach this to Mark Tate in moot court in law school, it's SDSU, sit down and shut up. Okay, that's just one of those things you should learn as hard for us lawyers to do that because we think we can just keep talking and then suddenly everybody's going to agree with us. Uh-uh. You tell 12 people

that this guy has got on surgical gloves in the grocery store. You know why he did that, right? If this can be confirmed, because he's heard about all those cases we've been talking about. Wait till Joe Scott Morgan jumps in on DNA, where cops can get your DNA off a beer can, a coffee cup, a pizza crust. This guy was wearing gloves when he was getting rid of trash in the neighbor's Dixie dumpster when he was sorting through trash and putting it into plastic zip lock bags in his kitchen, his parents' kitchen. And it just goes on and on and on. I can't wait for a

jury of 12 regular people like us to hear this guy about his surgical gloves all around the time of the murders. Yeah, absolutely, Nancy. I mean, it just happens to be a coincidence that, you know, he decides to throw his trash out in his neighbor's bin. And then, of course, you know, he takes these 4 a.m. drives, or at least he's awake at 4 a.m., you know, every moment you think about this guy. If you look at all of his phone pings, you know, does the guy ever sleep? You know where we're not seeing these gloves, though? One, all of these glove incidents show up post-incident. But you know where we're not seeing it?

We're not seeing it in the classroom before the incident. We're not seeing it in any of the photos of traffic stops where he stopped before the homicides. And guess what? We're not seeing it in the courtroom today. So I don't know what the deal is, you know, that a jury wouldn't, you know, say, why is this guy wearing gloves at 4 a.m.? And, you know, good a jury wouldn't, you know, say, why is this guy wearing gloves at 4 a.m.? And, you know, good luck for the defense on trying to sell it. Hold on. Let me throw this

to our DNA expert, Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics. You know, all of this is just anecdotal. My back and forth with Mark Tate, that anecdotal telling a story. OK, can we talk about hard evidence? If it's true to look at the horse's track record, you know what that would tell me that he wore surgical gloves at some point that night. Okay. When he was in that home murdering those four people. And you may ask Joe Scott Morgan, then how would his DNA be on the knife sheath? I'll tell you why. How many times do you think an anal compulsive like Brian Koberger had practiced opening that knife and fiddling with that knife and playing with that knife and admiring that knife?

That's how the DNA got on there. I think you wore surgical gloves that night, and I would be very surprised if we find his actual fingerprints anywhere in that home. It'd be tough to find, I think you wore surgical gloves that night. And I would be very surprised if we find his actual fingerprints anywhere in that home. It'd be tough to find, I think. And we probably would have an indication of that. But yeah, I've held throughout this, you know, when they found that sheath and that contact DNA was there on that, the snap. I always had this idea of him actuating the button, you know, sitting there with that snap, trying to flick it back and forth to see how smoothly he could do that.

And some people have said, and I've had people say this to me about this, well, why wasn't his DNA found on other locations on the sheath? And this is what I submit. I think that he may have wiped that sheath down at some point in time, but the devil is always in the details, Nancy. That little hidden underneath side of that snap, which I think is where they probably recovered it,

is not a place that you would commonly consider to wipe it down if you're looking to, you know, get rid of anything that was there that would be an identifier for you. It's an area that he may have missed and he left it behind in that one tiny area. I'm also interested in what type of gloves he had at his home. Did they find other gloves? So that's going to be a big tell in this case, Nancy. Part of the hearing on the 14th is to talk about the different parts of that video that we've received and how we need the whole context. This is the video that they say places this car near the residence. We've received little tiny pieces of that. And we think Brian's right to a fair trial means the public needs to know that they've withheld the audio from a great portion of that and that it starts a long time

before the little clip that we've received. Man, is she burying the lead. She's complaining about the audio not being attached to the video. Here's the bombshell. There you're hearing the defense attorney for Brian Koberger, Ann Taylor, talking about the existence of video that places Koberger's car, the white Elantra, near the crime scene. Yeah, that's a big deal. We believe that there's going to be two different video clips shown to the jury, one near the home and one near the gas station there at the corner. And I'm going to let Chris McDonough describe the gas station video, what he believes it will portray and what the video at the home we believe is going to portray. Guys with me, an all-star panel makes sense of

what we know right now. Go ahead, Chris McDonough, everybody take off your gloves. I promise not to collect your DNA. Well, not during the show anyway. Go ahead. Yep. So, Nancy, right next to the murder scene, there's a house right on the corner there. And outside in the light socket for the front porch was an active surveillance camera. I believe that the evidence will show that that car comes up that street multiple times. And those are the clips that they're holding back, as well as the additional piece of evidence that they're going to show is away from the scene. They're going to show that that vehicle was either A, coming into the crime scene area and or B, leaving. And I don't know if they're going to be able to correlate that in relationship to some of the phone pings, because remember, he turned his phone off. So, you know, that in and of itself is going to be interesting. Now, what's one other thing I just want to make a point on here is, you know, the defense is saying they need to see this video. Yet they held the alibi for over

a year. So my sense is they're still working on that particular forensic side of the evidence that's going to be presented. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Justice Scott Morgan, forensic expert and professor at Jacksonville State University, I was listening to every word she says, and she's saying that they've gotten tiny pieces of the car near the residence. You know what that tells me also? Tiny pieces of the car, and she wants it in context. That tells me there may be more than one surveillance video around the King Road murder scene that's catching the car. Do you remember the photos of Dulos

prosecution where missing Connecticut mama finds Jennifer Dulos went missing and there was a copious amount of blood, her blood found in the garage. You couldn't survive the loss of that much blood. So we know she's dead. And then the police there in Connecticut put together, it was pretty incredible. Let me just say, yes, yes. A whole scene, a whole timeline via different video of what Fotis Dulos, the husband, now dead, was doing. You see him leaving. You see it pick up with a red light cam, seeing him cutting through. You see him from a business cam, surveillance video, going by. And all the time he's going straight to the car wash to get the car detailed, but yet still, and even replacing the back seat, which still had Jennifer's hair on it and blood,

as I recall, even when a public bus door opened, you see his car go by because a lot of the buses have cams in them and they put together a collage to show his movements. That's what I'm hearing right here is Ann Taylor is complaining about little tiny pieces of the video placed in the car near the residence, according to police. And she doesn't like that. And she thinks that's not fair. But what it is, is different video cameras picking him up along the way. Did you decipher that? Or am I feeding you? Spoon feeding you? No, here's the thing.

You know, these ring cams and CCTV, obviously, they're more prevalent today than at any other point in time in history. And so we don't necessarily know about where all of these clips are coming from. We do know the area that he was in, allegedly, this car moving back and forth, is going to be the most densely populated area in this geographic location. You know, you get out in these areas that are far flung. Remember the loop that they talk about that where they collected, they were trying to collect images off of these gas station cams and wherever else the car may have passed. This is going to be the target rich area, though, around that residence at that point in time, because you never know.

You know, and you think about just for instance, you think about one of these cars like a Tesla, for instance, that has an indwelling cam that can pick things up. Did they shake the bushes enough to collect enough of this data out there to piece this thing completely together apparently she thinks they may have nancy mr coburn has at least now stated that his alibi is he was out driving around that night we knew that already and that's his alibi, so be it. What the defendant has still failed to do is to comply with item 19-519 and item report rule 1221 that specifically requires the defendant to provide identified names of witnesses who will be called to support the alibi along with their addresses. Okay, the alibi was ripped apart by the prosecutor in the last hearing, and there's a very good reason for that. Just as the state has to hand over all of their witnesses and how to contact their witnesses for the defense to have the opportunity to interview them prior to trial. The defense has to do that, too. So why is it that the only corroboration, Mark Tate, that Koberger is bringing on is a set of cell phone pings? But there's nothing wrong with that.

The prosecution has indicated they're going to rely on cell phone pings. And the rule, the law about alibi in Idaho is anytime after arraignment, you're allowed to tell the defendants, tell the prosecutors rather, that you're going to rely on alibi and you have to disclose your witnesses. However, here, the witnesses are cell phone pings, just like the prosecution's relying on cell phone pings, so is the defendant allowed to rely as well. Now, of course, that's going to be put in front of a jury, just like issues about whether he wore gloves and how strange that is. All of that will be admitted by witnesses, all of whom are subject to a sifting cross-examination.

And so now the prosecution knows there's going to be an alibi defense, and when there is, it has to be supported by admissible evidence. And so with each witness comes a chance to demonstrate reasonable doubt. Oh, you're just reading the criminal code on evidence to me. I got it. Hey, Liz, could you put up... So that's what the defense lawyer has to do. Let's give Mark Tate a little bit of his own medicine. They have to hold the prosecution's feet to the fire. Can you put up that graphic about the cell phone pins?

Do you have to be wearing gloves? I've got a pair here for you. But maybe you could borrow Kohlbergers. Oh, wait, no, they're in evidence. You know, as we were talking earlier, joining me, Chris McDonough, you were talking about the pings and you didn't get to say it on air. But Tate is all about, oh, the pings are going to help exonerate him. Wait a minute. Okay. He's at home 242. He's at home back at home at 527. He's at home at not

932 AM, but wait a minute. 450 phone ping 448 phone turned back on. Wait 247 AM right before the murders in the middle of the night while he's out stargazing, he decides to turn his phone off from 247 to 448. Wow. Chris McDonough, isn't that exactly when the time the murders occurred? Yeah, absolutely, Nancy. And what's interesting about that, and you pointed it out, was, you know, the one thing we learned about this alibi as well is all four of the victims are sound asleep. And, you know, the 12 other times that he was seen around that neighborhood, they were also asleep.

But in this particular case, you have the phone pings that get up to the point where they turn off. And then all of a sudden, the video picks it back up in the neighborhood, i.e. the car. So, you know, to try to sell that, you know, from the defense, whenever you hear a defense attorney say, you know, the public has a right to know and there's a gag order, that's usually a clue that there's something coming. Yeah, I don't I don't think the public has a right to know. I think the defendant has a right to know. There's nothing about this that says the public has a right to know. I think the defendant has a right to know. There's nothing about this that says the public has a right to know. That's the defendant's right to know to defend himself.

So I don't really care about the public and defending this guy. I'm just saying that, you know, if the prosecution can use pings, the defendant can use pings. Koberger has spent over 500 days in jail awaiting trial. Every day in the jail costs $194, totaling nearly $100,000 so far. Koberger's defense team bills over $500 an hour. The hours police spent cost nearly a million dollars. Idaho left with a massive bill spending $1.4 million on increased security and another $200,000 on counseling and vigil. Its estimated taxpayer spent roughly $3.6 million as a result of the murders. Dave Mack, what did I just hear? For Brian Koberger's defense team to pretty much spend at will. I've never heard of anything like this in my

life, Nancy Grace. Okay. A total of $3.6 million the taxpayers have paid for Koberger. When they say the taxpayer money, I wish they would actually send me a questionnaire about what I'm willing to pay for, you know, ahead of time, because this is ridiculous. $3.6 million on Koberger and all of his defense attorneys and experts. We're now learning about Koberger bringing on another expert to try and shore up his alibi. Cha-ching! Listen. The document filed serves as Koberger's official alibi and claims, quote, Mr. Koberger was out driving in the early morning hours of November 13, 2022. Okay, Chris McDonough, what is a CSLI expert? That expert, Nancy, will be an individual that will be able to tell the investigators and

or the jury what the signature is of that phone, i.e. the information coming out of that phone to the nearby cell towers. You know, to you, Karen Stark, I know, I hope the state doesn't get bogged down in a lot of scientific evidence. That's what happened in the Tottenham Casey Anthony trial where she killed her daughter, Kelly, and was acquitted. But that evidence was true, but it did get bogged down. You know what? Once the jury hears that after the murders, this guy went everywhere wearing plastic gloves. I mean, you know, I don't need an expert to tell me that's evidence of guilt. And I don't mean just that Karen Stark, not just that, of course, the DNA on the knife, the fact that he ordered the exact same knife and sheath

from Amazon, but what it's missing, nobody can find it. The cell phone, the video string cobbled together where we see his movements that night. There's so much evidence, Karen, much less this. You're talking about a guy who needs complete control and dominance, Nancy. I know this is going to come out. I mean, how telling is it that the phone is on and right before the murders, he turns it off? And that to me is completely compelling. And this guy, he has a history of staring at women to the point where they throw him out of restaurants. He's been complained about. He's been said that he's odd.

He takes control in a classroom. He has he studies how to do murders. Well, you know, Karen Stark, it hasn't come out yet. And I don't think that it will be part of the evidence because it will be very inflammatory. But when I was in Moscow and around Pullman speaking to people there, several female students came up to talk about how angry he would act at them, graded them much more severely than he did men. I mean, it was very compelling evidence that this guy hates women. I mean, I had to be a shrink to figure out why. But I bet the jury will never hear all that. Everything changing every day in

the lead up to this trial. Let's stop and remember American hero, Captain Jack Casey, just 26. Casey passed away with four other Marines in a helicopter crash this February. A U.S. Marine, he earned the National Defense Service Medal. He has survived by grieving wife, Emma, his mother, Catherine, and his father, James. American hero, Captain Jack Casey. Everyone, I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Thank you to our guests as well. Nancy Grace signing off. Good night, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.