Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Bucks Co. murders update & Will OJ Simpson go free?

Episode Date: July 17, 2017

Horrific details emerge in the murders of 4 Pennsylvania men, but prosecutors have reportedly taken the death penalty off the table in exchange for info from a suspect about where he buried the bodies. Reporter Jamie Stover and forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan discuss the case with Nancy Grace. Cheryl Kane, whose book details how police think OJ Simpson carried out a double homicide, talks about the possibility Simpson will soon be freed from prison. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. A shocking confession in the case of the four missing men in Bucks County. Cosmo DiNardo says he kills them all. What do you have to say to these families, Cosmo? Anything to say? Do you have anything to say? I'm sorry.

The four men have been missing since last week. Cosmo DiNardo's defense attorney says that his client admitted his guilt and told investigators where they can find the bodies. Mr. DiNardo confessed to the district attorney. The DA promised him the death penalty would be off the table despite confessing to killing and burning the bodies of four young men. Did he act alone? We're hearing this morning there is a second person of interest.

The facts become even murkier as we continue to learn about the disappearance and likely deaths of four young Bucks County boys. As I said, scrubbed in sunshine. One on the Dean's List at Loyola. He and three other friends go missing. And now we learn likely dead at the hands of a pot dealing schizophrenic. Now we understand that the four boys were killed. The killer using a pig roaster to burn the bodies.

That's the latest out of Bucks County. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. We are also learning that the local district attorney has agreed to take the death penalty off the table. This as one of the boys' sweethearts writes a heartbreaking goodbye to him, saying, you'll never know how much I love you and could it be true you can kill four people put their bodies in a pig roaster ride over them while they're still alive with a backhoe and you don't get the death penalty you don't even try for the death penalty I don't know I feel like I'm Alice in Wonderland. Something's upside down.

Straight out to Jamie Stover with WFMZ-TV. Jamie, first of all, what do we know? How did a pig roaster, a pig, P-I-G roaster, what is that? And what does that have to do to get rid of the bodies after this what he called a pig roaster. Okay. Also to Jamie Stover, WFMZ TV. Who is the second killer? Is it a cousin of Cosmo DiNardo? So that is the term that he is using to describe the co-conspirator in this. He called it a cousin of Cosmo DiNardo? So that is the term that he is using to

describe the co-conspirator in this. He called him a cousin. What's interesting, though, is we're still not really entirely sure if they're actually family. Speaking to one of the prosecutors on the case on Friday, they said that they didn't know if that was an art term they were using to describe their relationship, but they did put it in the court documents. So that is what they're referring to Sean Kratz as, as his partner in crime and his cousin. We are told to Joe Scott Morgan, death investigator and instructor at Jacksonville State University. We understand that evening he meets up with Mayo and Sturgis. DiNardo shoots Mayo.

Sturgis then, seeing what's going down, tries to run for it. DiNardo shoots him until he runs out of ammunition. This is like he thinks he's in a movie. Then he drives over Mayo, who's likely still alive, with a backhoe. We understand he basically crushes Mayo with the backhoe, then uses that same backhoe to pick up the bodies and carry them and drop them into the so-called pig roaster, add gasoline, and set it on fire.

They're then dumped 12 feet down into a common grave. The remains of Patrick were recovered from a separate location. That's what we know right now, Joseph Scott Morgan. What do you make of that account? I'm kind of taken aback. Let's go back to what you said in the beginning, Nancy. You know, the death penalty is off the table at this point. Are you kidding me? I mean, based upon your background and what you know about prosecuting cases like this, you're talking about serious, aggravating circumstances here that, you know, just it smacks of death penalty because if this kid was still alive and he runs over him with a backhoe, that's a torturous, torturous death.

That's going to come out in the pathology findings. We'll find out if these crushing injuries that he has, if in fact he does have them, if there is some type of anti-mortem event. That is, was he crushed while he was still alive? Did he suffer? And again, that's an aggravating circumstance. Now he takes these bodies, piles them can only imagine that he did, back to a location where he purchased that. The idea is to try to put everything into his hand and to the hands of his accomplice as well. The bullets, if they're still in the bodies, which I would imagine they probably will be, will be contained in this area as well. I can't imagine these bodies are too far gone at this point, but everything is contained.

And so that's kind of a saving grace. But this is just a horrific set of circumstances. Yeah. Jamie Stover, WFMZ-TV, what about the other bodies? So three of the bodies were in that pig roaster that we talked about earlier. And then kind of going back to the death penalty being off the table, the district attorney said that because of that confession, because of that agreement and deal that he made with Cosmo DiNardo, they were able to find the fourth body, which was, if you look at the timeline and how they're laying this out in court records, would be the first victim who would have showed up to DiNardo's In fact, in one of his news conferences, the district attorney said that when they were

going to this other location on the property where they eventually found his body, that he felt sick because of how far away it was from these other three men that they had discovered in the ground. So it's the DA's belief then, and I'm paraphrasing, he would never have found the fourth victim's body had he not cut the deal, Jamie. Correct. That's, yes, that's essentially what he said in his news conference after this all came to light last week. Well, this is my concern. I'll tell you right now, Joe Scott Morgan, we already see them dragging the victims through the mud, trying to claim, right or wrong, that the boys were buying pot. All right. That has nothing to do with the fact that they were murdered.

That's what I'm concerned about. A mass murder. And now, trying to sling mud at the victims. I don't like it, number one. And number two, I see this shaping up as a mental defense. Somewhere along the line, I guarantee you, DiNardo is not going to want to go down for life behind bars. And then you got the cousin. What are we going to do with him? Give him 20 and let him walk out in 10 years?

Uh-uh. I don't like where this is heading at all. All the media is calling him schizophrenic. What about the fact he's got the wherewithal to sell pot, to meet up with people to sell pot, according to him. He has a history with the law, 30, as they say euphemistically, brushes with the law, no arrests. I mean, if he can lie, kill, and hide a body, I don't think he's legally insane. Let's think about this.

This is higher-level thinking that's going on here, Nancy. This is not like this is these are not the actions of somebody that is out of control of their faculties here. You've got a person that has thought this out to drag these people out here, attract them out here and then kill each one of these people. And not only that, he went to great lengths in order to do this. He dug a 12-foot deep ditch. He entered into a, you know, I don't know what else to call it other than a conspiracy with this other person to facilitate their deaths, put them into this so-called pig roaster,

then tried to dispose the bodies vis-a-vis setting them on fire and then burying them on top of it. And in addition to that, they showed up with weapons to this thing. This is not something that was just done kind of harem scarum or shot from the hip. This is something that required thought and higher level thinking. I think that this is going to be a real hard sell if the defense is looking to paint this guy as a complete lunatic. Well, what about the co-defendant, Kratz? What about him, Jamie? What is he looking at?

Because it's my understanding he, DiNardo, conspired with Kratz to rob Finocchiaro. And then Kratz is the one that actually rob Finocchiaro. And then Kratz is the one that actually shot Finocchiaro. So Cosmo DiNardo is pinning that shooting and only that one of the four killings directly on his cousin. While his cousin, you know, according to the court documents, while his cousin does say that he was there when three of these killings took place and was aware of the burial, he does not step up and take ownership for actually doing the killing. huge discrepancy and it'll be interesting to see how that plays in court on on whether or not they actually can can tie it the the killings to uh any one of the specific of those of the specific you know what jamie you're right because they're pointing the fingers at each other but the reality is is it doesn't matter it's one for all and all for one under the law even if dinardo had shot them all if kratzikired for this to go down,

and even didn't intend a shooting to occur. It was the commission of a felony and a death occurred. So there you have it. And Kratz is going to be hard-pressed to say he didn't know what was going on. I mean, Joe Scott Morgan, you're the death investigator. After the Batco attack, then we hear that the two, DiNardo and his cousin, douse the bodies of these innocent boys, douse the boys inside a pig roaster with gasoline and try to burn the bodies. That's highly likely the bodies were burned.

That's really hard to do, to burn a human body beyond identification, Joe Scott. It's very, very difficult, Nancy. And a lot of people that have never been around cremains, as we refer to them, and having burned bodies, it takes an extended period of time. It takes a steady heat source in order to facilitate this. That is, in some of these cases that I've worked in both New Orleans and Atlanta over the course of my career, if people try to get rid of bodies with fire, it has to be a sustained fire. That is an area where you can burn the body for sometimes up to 48 hours extended where everything is gone and intense heat, these bodies will not be completely destroyed.

However, however, they will be destroyed to the point where they're unrecognizable, except vis-a-vis probably dental records, I would imagine, and quite possibly... I cannot believe this. Oh, it's horrible. It's absolutely horrible. recognizable except vis-a-vis probably dental records i would imagine and quite possibly not believe this oh it's horrible you've got an honor student at loyola you've got one of these kids that likes to sit around the house and play the guitar in his family's home they're dead they're shot they're run down with a backhoe they're doused with gasoline and try to burn them their remains in a pig roaster and buried on a corn farm and they're not getting the death penalty i mean i i can't even imagine it i mean joe scott you know how much you love your son you think these parents didn't love their boys

just as much as you and i do yep Yep. Oh, dear Lord in heaven. Horrible, horrible. And these boys, your boy just turned 16, right? These are just two years older than him. I know. It's heartbreaking. Think about it. Yeah, I mean, I've been working on this case the entire week, listening to all of these stories.

And every little piece that comes out, it just absolutely drives me to tears even further and further. Where were DiNardo's parents? Why was he out with a gun for Pete's sake? And why does he have 30 so-called brushes with the law over this period of time? Has anyone tried to interdict this guy over the period of time? What I have heard is that, yeah, it is money. And he has been pushed down the line and shuffled off to other people over the period of time and i have to say this is a failure on the part of the

mental health system in my estimation if this guy hey hey hey hey hey yeah before you start taking a swing at the mental health system the mental health system did not kill these four boys. No. All right. DiNardo did and his hinky cousin, Kratt. So they're going down, but no matter what they do, they're not going to get the death penalty. Jamie Stover, WFMZ-TV, Joe Scott Morgan, death investigator and instructor at Jacksonville State University. Thank you for bringing us the latest out of Bucks County. July 22nd on Oxygen, the new network for crime. the latest out of Bucks County. Follow Kelly as she takes real cases from cold to closed. What you will always see on Cold Justice is real.

To get the guilty person put away. There's not a better feeling in the whole world if you're in law enforcement. Cold Justice returns July 22nd at 8, 7 central on Oxygen, the new network for crime. We now head across the country where in just a few days, actually 72 hours from now, a double killer could walk free. Repeat, a double killer could walk free. The two victims were found on a bloody crime scene. The female victim's head remained on her body only by the thin skin on the back of her spine. She was, by all intents and purposes, decapitated in her driveway, lying there in a little black dress in a pool of blood. Her friend, a young man with his life before him, also brutally stabbed dead.

But the killer walked free. Of course, you know by now I'm referring to Orenthal James Simpson, who walked free on a double murder of Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman. For most of the country, there's never been any doubt that Simpson committed double murder and it was only many years later when again thinking he was above the law goes and busts into a location where sports memorabilia is being sold with a gang of thugs with him his flunkies guns the works and takes away memorabilia he He insists as he is. Well, he went down for that. And he's been sitting in love lock CI ever since. But that may all change in 72 hours. This Wednesday, this Wednesday, Orenthal James Simpson up for parole. And joining me, in addition to forensics instructor at Jacksonville State University, death investigator

Joseph Scott Morgan, is a special guest joining us, Cheryl Kane, the author of a hot new book on the subject, O.J. Simpson the Killer, a minute-by-minute account of the homicides of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman, available on Amazon. You know, I'm completely fascinated, Cheryl Kane, A, thank you for being with us, but B, for the way you detail the hours immediately following that bloody double homicide till Simpson makes it to his alibi where he claims he's flying out of town that night.

Why did you feel compelled to write this book? Well, this is all about the upcoming parole hearing. We're hoping this book will keep O.J. Simpson in jail. I was so impressed with Detective Pembroke's 400-plus page manuscript that he did independently. Over the course of years, I put everything on hold to complete this book. It's about the night of the murders. What happened in those three hours, Cheryl? Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown Simpson were brutally murdered by one person, O.J. Simpson. If I could read a page, page 85.

This is chilling. Lying on the sidewalk, he could feel his own loss of blood. He moved his left hand back and forth in acute pain in a futile attempt to keep going long enough to find help. His fingers pushed a pool of blood from his neck to the top of his head and back alongside his neck again. His blood formed the silhouette of his face on the sidewalk. 10.35 p.m. Ron Goldman again desperately tried to struggle to his feet. He lost his balance and fell over to the right side of the sidewalk. He was now lying on the right side of his face with

the blood still flowing from the knife wound on the left side of his neck, leaving a 12-inch stream of blood now running down the sidewalk. He fought to push his trembling body up to his hands and knees. Once in the kneeling position on his knees, he grabbed the left side of his neck with his right hand, trying to slow the bleeding. He then became aware of Nicole's dog barking loudly at the intersection of Dorothy and Bundy. Instead of crawling over to the large palm tree to support his efforts to get to his feet, Ron Goldman leaned toward the lily of the valley, the Nile plants, now ready to stagger down the sidewalk to Nicole's dog.

Still holding the left side of his neck with his right hand, he lifted his right foot off the ground and planted it on the sidewalk by the lily of the Nile plants, hoping to stagger down the sidewalk toward the dog. He tried to steady himself in a kneeling position before he got to his feet. A large drop of his blood dripped between his fingers and landed on the sidewalk. The bleeding continued, leaving several large drops of Ron Goldman's blood on the sidewalk by the lily of the Nile plant. I don't know if I can even take it, Cheryl, to the thinking, imagining Ron Goldman trying to stop the bleeding in his neck. I mean, how severe?

We know, Joe Scott Morgan, that Simpson nearly, other than the skin at the back of her neck, cut the head off of his wife, the mother of his children, Nicole Brown. But what was the major injury to Ron Goldman? His wounds were not as immediate as Nicole's were. You know, Nicole was stabbed multiple times in the chest, obviously in her neck, and not just stabbed in the neck, but her throat was slashed down to the point where it went through all of the soft tissue, as you've already pointed out. With Ron's, he had fatal wounds, but they weren't immediately fatal.

And so he lingered for a time. So the picture that she is, that has been painted. Like Cheryl is saying, he actually tried to walk oh so cheryl the wound ron goldman sustained to his neck was the one he was trying to staunch the flow of blood from right yeah he was trying to apply pressure to it more than likely to try to stem this flow that's that's you know that's just you know eking the life out of his body very very slow to cheryl kane who has written this book, O.J. Simpson, the Killer, minute-by-minute account of the homicides of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman. Cheryl, to whom did you send the manuscript?

We sent copies of it to O.J. Simpson in jail. We have inside information. He went berserk when he received it. We sent copies to the head warden. Tell me this. How are we going to get around the fact, Cheryl, that he's not in jail for the double murders? He's in jail for armed robbery. How much longer can they keep him? I know, but this monster should never be released, and I will stalk him with this book should he get out. I will go to every public appearance he puts on in this area, and I will bring the book with me. He's an explosion waiting to happen. This guy walked free from a death sentence,

but the civil case proved he did it. Let me tell you something that happened, Alan Duke, also with us, Alan. After the verdict, I was still prosecuting in the city of Atlanta, homicide, felony prosecutor, and my old buddy, Geraldo, at that time, had a day show, kind of a talk show with a studio audience. And he asked me would I fly to New York.

And having grown up in the middle of soybean fields and tall pine trees, I wanted to see what New York was. And so I said, sure. And I flew up there. Well, I appeared on a show with three of the lady jurors that were on the O.J. Simpson murder trial. I think it was three. It was at least three or more. And they had written a book about it. And I tried to be respectful as best as I could during it. And would try to confront them with the evidence that in my mind was just

damning it's like nothing I said made any sense to them you know they didn't want to hear it and so I remained friendly I mean they didn't commit the murder but I you know was stunned that they could let the guy go well I think everybody was over and we walked out to the car and they were going and i walked out behind them right behind them and they started talking to me and very friendly very civil and nice to me even though i vehemently disagreed with them and a big old white stretch limo came up and it picked for them, okay? I was standing there hoping I could get a taxi. So it came, this big stretch limo came up, Alan, and one of them turned around.

She had her hand on the car door. She turned around. She said, Nancy, I tell you what, this murder has been the best thing that ever happened to me. I mean, we have gone on shopping sprees. We have gone to the best restaurants. We have stayed in the best hotels. I mean, it has really been something. That's what happened.

She said, now, bye. I'm not through with my story, Alan. Can I just finish my story, please? So then I just stood there looking at her, and she slammed. They shut the door, and they drove off, and I was standing there. And, of course, I had on a coat of what you could call a coat from Georgia. It was nothing to hold up in New York. And I remember shivering, and it started to snow at that moment.

Snowflakes started coming down, and I watched the taillights disappear and they turned off to the right and I just thought about what she said this murder trial has been the best thing that ever happened to me yeah that's what she said well you know it it launched it launched it launched a lot of careers it launched shows it changed the way that television is done the way that we cover trials it was talking about that but it just got can anybody hear me here yeah just got what i'm saying is a person on the jury said she was being honest with you trial was the best it's true i'm honest. She had her 15 minutes of fame. But something seems...

Well, the trial dragged on for nine months. It should have been six weeks. It was ridiculous. Do I still have Joe Scott Morgan with me? Okay, Joe, can you speak? Do you not see the problem with this, the irony of eating at the best restaurant, staying at the best hotels, going on shopping sprees, being on TV, and saying the murder trial is the best thing that ever happened to you? That's not what a murder trial is about.

No. And, you know, I use this case now. This is 12 years, 12 years, you know, downrange from my career working death investigations in Atlanta and in New Orleans. And I use this case repeatedly in my forensics class. This is the case that actually changed the way we process death scenes now. I use this case repeatedly in my classroom. And I tell them that, listen, this turned out, this was obviously a rich man's game. The defense wore the jury down with hyperbole and science that was way above their head. And they don't want to hear anything else. And it's a real shame.

I want to get back to Cheryl Kane, who has written this book about the murders. Cheryl, many people believe, including some of Simpson's former lawyers, that he will make parole, and it's all going to go down on Wednesday. What do you think, Cheryl? He's a monster. He should never be released. He's a ticking time bomb. He'll get out and do something else. He's incapable of being a normal human being. And what he did, which is outlined in our book, if the dog hadn't come back to the crime scene at 1204 with the neighbors he would have well OJ Simpson's plane was still sitting on the tarmac at LAX he would

have got away with murder with the alibi of distance when he was in Chicago the dog saved the day and the dog saved the young children at the time, age 5 and 8, from finding their brutally butchered mother and Ron Goldman when they came down for breakfast the next morning. I just wonder how much the parole board is going to take all of this into account when they make this decision, the decision going down in 72 hours. So let me ask you this, Alan Duke, will Simpson himself appear at the parole board hearing? I'm sure he'll be there. Why wouldn't he be there? Yes, he'll be there. We expect, and by the way, it be televised we're going to we're going to be able to see this is as it should be so Cheryl Kane who has written this fantastic book Cheryl he's not up for parole on the double murders he was never convicted on that but do you

believe those murders will weigh in the minds of the parole board, Cheryl. We're hoping they do because he does not deserve to be paroled. He's a butcher, and he's incapable of fitting back into society. Even the things he did in Florida were ridiculous. What things in Florida? Well, I won't go into that. Let's concentrate on the book. When anybody reads this book, they will not want O.J. Simpson on the street. I mean, it's brutal. Alan Duke, if they look at the armed robbery in isolation, It was brutal. He acted like he was above the law, that he could just do whatever he wanted and there

would be no consequences. Then he lied about it. In front of the judge at sentencing, instead of finally coming clean after a jury finds him guilty, Simpson tries to tell the judge that what really happened, he was trying to reclaim family heirlooms, family heirlooms and other items stolen from him and that he had no idea all of his buddies were carrying guns. I mean, after a jury finds you guilty, you're caught red-handed, right? Then you get up and lie to the judge's face. I mean, does that mean nothing to nobody but me? Oh, oh no, uh-uh, oh no, you don't get up and lie to me. Uh-uh. After I put you through a jury trial

and you put me through a jury trial, do not stand up and lie up in my face Alan yeah you're right lying to the judge is the last thing you ever want to do when it comes to sentencing but yeah the the Nevada jury obviously they they had this OJ Nicole Brown Simpson Ron Goldman murders very much in their minds when they found him guilty. Why? He's caught red-handed in an armed robbery. Right, but there was no way. You have the wrong side of a gun in your face, and see how you feel. It was wrong. Okay, but you're darn right it was wrong.

If it hadn't been O.J. Simpson, and if he hadn't been notoriously acquitted in the Los Angeles case, I don't think he ever would have been given all of this time. Really? No, I don't think he would have. Are you trying to say you don't think I took people to trial on an armed robbery and put their rear ends in the can? Yeah, with a jury. And they convicted.

You pull out a gun and rob somebody, you are going to jail if I have anything to do with it. And you're going to sit there as long as possible. He didn't have the gun. Because when you get out, you'll probably do it again. And you know what? I heard Cheryl say, and she didn't want to talk about it, all of what, quote, happened in Florida. Right.

I mean, how many times could that ex-girlfriend of his show up covered in bruises? Yeah. I mean, really? And she finally, finally broke up with him. Well, there's no question. I guess she fell down the steps like Nicole Brown did. There's no question that OJ Simpson is a lifelong problem child and a murderous problem child. Stop it.

Stop it. And he'll, you know. Stop it. He is not a, please stop. How old is he now? 70 what? Problem child. A problem child is now? 70 what? Problem child. A problem child is somebody that won't eat their broccoli.

This is a double killer and an armed robber. All right? He's not a... You just made me mad. A problem child. Well, I mean... This is a double killer. Haven't you seen those crime scene photos of Nicole laying in a pool of blood?

You know, I covered it quite closely when it was going on. Well, you need to go back and look at those photos. He is a killer. In the L.A. case, they did not win the case because the LAPD messed up, messed up royally. And the poor prosecutors just didn't realize it until it was too late. Nancy, let's listen to a little bit of what Simpson told the parole board in 2013, the last time he was asking to get out early. Okay, listen to this.

Not had any incidences, despite all the stories and the tabloids and everything. I haven't had one incident since I've been here. I think on a daily basis, I'd speak to more inmates and COs than anybody here. Inmates tell me their stories. Some of them tell me their crimes and as far as burglary, which I'm here for, robbery I should say, they've told me every kind of story you can hear. Guys who have robbed banks, have robbed casinos, even one guy who robbed a gun shop, which I thought took a lot of guts.

The difference between all of their crimes and mine is they were trying to steal other people's property. They were trying to steal other people's money. My crime was trying to retrieve from my family my own property, property that had been stolen from me and property that since I've been here at Lovelock, the state of California's judiciary has ruled was my stuff and I have it back now. Make no mistake, I would give it all back to these guys. They can have it all to get these last five years back. They've been somewhat illuminating at times and painful a lot of times. I've missed my two younger kids who we worked hard getting through high school. I've missed their college graduations. I've missed my daughters, my sisters I should say, at the funeral. I missed all the birthdays and various things. When I went to that place that night, I had already discussed it with my kids.

I spoke about it with my sister and brother-in-law, older sister and brother-in-law, who were originally going to go with me up until the last hour. I even talked to two lawyers about it, one the night before that I knew and had a conversation with a lawyer that day who I didn't know. I had no intention. My intent was not to rob from anybody. I knew both of these guys who had my stuff. I was a little upset with them, and I think I wasn't as civil as I should have been.

I brought some guys with me who I didn't really know and one I didn't trust and that's on me. For that, I've been here for five years and all I could do about it since I've been here is be as respectful and as straightforward as I could be with the staff here at Lovelock and do my time as best as I can do it. I am sorry for what has happened. I have spoken at length to both of the victims. They've apologized. I've apologized. I know their families. They know my families. And I just wish I had never gone to that room. I wish I didn't. I wish I had just said keep it and not worry about it. Other than that, you know, I'm just sorry that all of this had to happen. Let's get down to it.

The parole board scores an inmate on multiple factors. The higher the score, the greater risk involved in releasing them. A person with a score of 0 to 5 is deemed low risk. 6 to 11, medium. 12 or more, you're high risk. All right? In 2013, Simpson scored three points. All right?

That's low. I don't like it. I don't know where they got low three points. He's an old man. He's not the same. You know what? I prosecuted a man for child molestation, and he was 73 years old. That's a little different.

All right? I mean, murder and, you know. No, it's not different. It's a felony. You don't think Simpson's going to get out and beat somebody up or rob somebody or do some horrible thing? I think he'll get beaten up. Actually, I think he's going to be a target.

I think he better watch his back. Funny how he hasn't been a target behind bars. Everybody predicted, oh, he's going to get jailhouse justice. Oh, no, he's got a butler behind bars. Love letters, the works. He's got somebody working for him behind bars. Yeah, we'll see how he survives. I'm wondering if he'll ever show up to LA and come out here. See how

he survives. He's gained weight. He's living like a king. That's how he's surviving. I don't have to wait and see. I already know how he's surviving. What has happened to you? Have you lost your mind? No, I haven't lost my mind. Simpson is up. That sounded weak.

No, I haven't lost my mind. It makes me think maybe you have lost your mind. Okay, all right. Okay, okay. All right. Okay, Alan, I'm going to eat a dirt sandwich and apologize for fussing at you, although in the words of Lego Batman, I disagree with everything you just said. So how is it that O.J. Simpson is still getting an NFL pension while Ron Goldman took him to a civil trial where it came out that he did own Bruno Mali shoes, those bloody footprints.

They matched his shoes that he denied having. It came out that he made a negative something. I want to say a negative 40 on his polygraph. All that came out in the civil trial. That was not in the criminal case. But that aside, Ron Goldman never got, Ron Goldman's dad, Fred Goldman, never got a penny,

one penny from that civil judgment. So how is it that Simpson still has an NFL pension check every month? Yeah, there are technicalities involved. And I might add, by the way, in that civil trial, the difference was, of course, we heard from OJ, and he did look kind of guilty on that. I mean, he wasn't able to put on a glove. Looked kind of guilty.

Well, he wasn't able to just testify like he did in the criminal trial where he just put the gloves on and said, Hey, they don't fit. I, you know, must acquit. Well, first of all, he didn't testify like he did in the criminal trial where he just put the gloves on and said, hey, they don't fit. I, you know, must acquit. First of all, he didn't testify at the criminal trial. Number one. He did a deposition at the civil trial and he testified. He did not testify at the criminal trial.

He stood up in a very, very ill-conceived in-court demonstration and pretended that the glove didn't fit. That's what he did, okay? And that served as he was able to testify without being cross-examined in that sense. Cheryl, what were you saying? Anyone who has any doubt that he did it will read this book and know that he did it. It's a brutal account, and Ron Goldman's family is suffering for the rest of their lives. In fact, my publicist, Ed Lozzi, asked me to send a copy of the book to the Goldmans, and I said, I don't want to do that.

It would just bring more pain to their lives. Would you send a copy of the book to the Goldmans, Nancy? No, I would not, because they've already been through so much. to their lives. Would you send a copy of the book to the Goldman, Nancy? No, I would not. Because they've already been through so much. I mean, they know what happened. They've been through just so much pain and torture. And no, I would not. I don't think I would do that.

You know what's interesting to Joe Scott Morgan, death investigator and forensics investigator at Jacksonville State University, there's no doubt that he flat out flunked his lie detector test. I have to agree, Nancy. There is no doubt. And again, that stood out in the civil case. I think that in addition to that, back to the criminal trial, I think that DNA points to OJ. And going back to what's going to happen on Wednesday and what Carol had mentioned just a few moments ago, I think that this is going to dis-event these two deaths, these brutal butcherings, as Cheryl had pointed out, I

apologize, Ms. King. I think that in my estimation, those are going to play into the thoughts of this board. This is not going to be like a criminal trial. This is going to resonate with them. They're going to have that in mind. It's impossible to escape it. So I think he's in a prison of his own making right now. I'm betting that they're not going to cut him loose. I don't know how much longer that they could. I hope not. I don't know how much longer they could actually keep him in on the charges that he went down on because He wouldn't be up for parole again for another five years. Our eye on that parole board hearing, Joe Scott Morgan and Cheryl Kane, author. Thank you for being with us.

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