Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Bundy Defense Lawyer Talks Bryan Kohberger

Episode Date: June 7, 2023

BUNDY & MOSCOW: Two of a kind? Since the November 13th attack on four coeds in Idaho, there have been many comparisons between alleged murderer Bryan Kohberger and notorious serial killer Ted Bundy. Bundy's attack on the Florida State University Chi Omega sorority house in 1978 is eerily similar to what happened on King Road. Be sure to join us for our investigation into the similarities between these gruesome attacks in, 'Parallels of Evil: The Bundy and Idaho Killings,' now streaming on Fox Nation, here. Joining Nancy Grace Today: John Henry Browne - Ted Bundy’s Former Defense Atty. and Author of “The Devil's Defender: My Odyssey Through American Criminal Justice from Ted Bundy to the Kandahar Massacre" Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst (Beverly Hills, CA); Twitter: @DrBethanyLive Dale Carson - High Profile Criminal Defense Attorney (Jacksonville); Former FBI Agent; Former Instructor at the FBI Academy (taught the case of Ted Bundy); Former Police Officer (Miami-Dade County), and Author: "Arrest-Proof Yourself;" Twitter: @DaleCarsonLaw Bill Warner - Private Investigator                                      Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet," and Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" Twitter: @JoScottForensics Audrey Conklin- Crime Reporter for Fox News Digital; Twitter: @audpants  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Pure evil. That is the way that not one, but two men have been described. What else do they have in common? Well, allegedly, many, many dead bodies. I'm talking about, of course, Ted Bundy, who immediately springs to mind whenever a serial killer or pure Evil is named. But now, according to many parallels between Ted Bundy, who is called the Chi Omega Killer, but he actually killed many, many more women than those murdered in the Chi Omega house. Many parallels are being drawn between Ted Bundy and Brian Koberger, now accused of murdering four beautiful young Idaho students,

we believe, in their sleep. In their sleep or falling asleep or in bed in the early, early morning hours around 3 a.m. When Ted Bundy was finally caught after two escapes, by the way, and convicted and put in the penitentiary, many people thought it would never happen again. Wow, were we wrong. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. Take a listen to Parallels of Evil, the Bundy and Idaho killing. I can only imagine what was going through his mind, the plotting, the planning, the scheming.

It's very evocative of the Ted Bundy case because we know now that those victims were spied on and stalked upon just like these victims. There's really no doubt about it. The comparisons and the parallels between the MO's modus operandi method of operation, between Bundy killings and the Idaho murders are eerie. Actually, very eerie in their similarities. Take a listen to who I now consider to be my friend, Cheryl Thomas. When you read the headlines out of Idaho, what did you think? I was really saddened to hear about the news that that happened.

That news brings Cheryl Thomas. It then and there unlawfully attempted to kill a human being to wit Cheryl Thomas by beating her about the head. Back to the darkest moments of her life. The night she was attacked in her own bed by serial killer Ted Bundy. I could relate. It was a click immediately reaction to that scene. Take a listen now to the neighbor of Cheryl Thomas who was attacked that night by Ted Bundy. This is Debbie Ciccarelli. We had been sound asleep.

We'd come in that night from being out together. And I had heard this, our house was up on blocks and I heard this loud banging. And it startled me. I woke up and I listened for a little bit and then woke my roommate up. And I said, there's something going on next door. And the thing is, the wall between Cheryl's side and our side was so thin that we could actually talk to each other through the wall. And we had a system that if there's something we're not feeling right about, we're going to call you. You need to answer your phone no matter what.

Well, I called over there. I could hear the phone ringing. I could hear Cheryl whimpering. But I just had this real unsettling feeling, sick to my stomach. I had no idea what was going on. We thought maybe our cat was having kittens and there was all this commotion in Cheryl's room for that. With me, an all-star panel to analyze and decipher what we're learning as more and more evidence comes in about the Idaho murders. But first, I want to go to Fox News Digital investigative reporter Audrey Conklin. Now, just then, so much like what Dylan Mortensen said,

that she heard something and she wasn't quite sure what it sounded like. Now, here, Debbie says it sounds like she heard a cat mewing. But what she heard were Bundy's victims moaning during and after the attack, Audrey? Yes, I mean, we've heard similarities from the murders in Moscow that screaming or other kinds of noises, banging, could be heard through the walls. We know that there was a dog in the building. It's unsure if the dog made any noise. But both of these communities in the 1970s and then last fall were close-knit college communities, close in their relationships and close in proximity. So there are a lot of similarities between these two crimes.

To Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet and host of Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan, who, by the way, is commemorating the 100th episode of Body Bags this week. Amazingly, congratulations on that, Joe Scott Morgan, all the good you have done in this world. Joe Scott, the words of Dylan Mortensen just keep coming to mind. What we know of her words anyway. Guys, Dylan Mortensen is one believe, actually saw the murderer who had just slain four sleeping or sleepy college students in Idaho and described him. Good for her. She went back in her room and shut her door and locked it, not realizing, I don't think anyway, what she had actually seen or what had actually happened upstairs.

But then you've got Bethany Funk also. We don't know what she's going to say. He may very well have slept through the whole thing. But remember the words of Dylan Mortensen and how that compares to what Debbie Citrulli heard. It's almost identical. It is. And thanks for having me on today, Nancy.

Yeah, it really is. And in such close proximity to evil, and it is pure evil. You know, when we begin to, and as you've talked about these parallels relative between Bundy and Koberger and these events that have gone down. And you have people that are, you know, just in the eye of the storm they just they just get brushed by it but they've wreaked havoc uh in their wake these monsters along the way and these people are all that are left behind to bear witness to this at least potentially as an ear witness or an eye witness in dylan's case in particular, you know, she's actually the person that we get that identifier,

that big identifier. Do you remember back those months ago where she talked about the bushy eyebrows? You know, and that was the one thing that kind of resonated in this particular case. Hi guys, Nancy Grace here. Please join us now on Fox Nation for a brand new investigation, Parallels of Evil, the Bundy and Idaho Killings. In this gripping special investigation,

we bring together an incredible panel of guests who analyze disturbing similarities of evil between these horrible crimes. We speak with two female Ted Bundy survivors, Karen Pryor and Cheryl Thomas, who described their life before and after they were victims of Ted Bundy. We also speak with the renowned private investigator Bill Warner, who worked in the cases, and Ted Bundy's defense attorney, John Henry Brown. We travel to Moscow, Idaho, to speak with Washington State University students and interview neighbors of Brian Koberger. One neighbor shares exclusive insights about the suspect in the Idaho killings, Brian Koberger. Don't miss Parallels of Evil, the Bundy and Idaho killings, streaming now exclusively on Fox Nation. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. You know, I was just thinking, I want to go to John Henry Brown.

Guys, I know you've heard that name before. He is a renowned lawyer and was Ted Bundy's former defense lawyer. That must give you nightmares at night. You can find John Henry Brown at jhb, for John Henry Brown, lawyer.com. John, thank you for being with us. John, do you go by John or Henry or John Henry? Oh, either one's fine. I have to do a lot of things.

I'm going to go with John. Okay. John, I'm thinking about all the literally thousands of criminal defendants that went before me as a prosecutor in inner city Atlanta. Very, very high crime volume. I mean, I would get 150 new felony cases a week. And many of those were, it sounds like a lot, many of those were theft by taking, theft by receiving a stolen car, cop pulls over a stolen car, there's four guys in it, they all get charged. All right, that's easy to deal with unless they're, you know, have a bad record. Or a simple possession of marijuana or cocaine, you know, straight to rehab for you and next.

There's so many cases that are easily disposed of. But there are those, John Henry Brown, that when the person walks in the room, the particular judge I had would want me to meet with a defense attorney and bring in the defendant in the conference room. He could be charged with mass murder, serial rapist, didn't matter. And we would go through the case and I would explain what the state had at that juncture against them

and offer a plea deal or just say, no deal, you're going to trial, you big a-hole. So long story short, there were those defendants that when they would walk in and then walk out later, you just had the creepiest feeling about them. Did you ever have that feeling about Bundy? Oh, yeah, constantly. Oh, gosh, okay. I didn't know if you were going to go to your grave going, he's innocent. But that's it. Okay, I didn't know if you were going to go to your grave going, he's innocent. But that's it.

Okay. I want to hear about the creepy feeling. Are you listening, Dr. Bethany Marshall? Okay. You're not going to find any of this in your psychoanalytic books. This is true. Okay, John Henry Brown. I want to hear about the feeling.

Well, when I first met him, he came across as kind of a caricature of a preppy sort of guy. What really got creepy was he was out of custody after he'd been released in Utah. Oh, my stars. Wait, wait, wait, wait. That's right. He was out of custody, free to continue killing people. And you said he was like a caricature of a preppy person. What do you mean by that? Oh, you know, he was trying to blend in with the Republican folks in Washington.

We had a really great governor back then. Dan Evans was our governor, and I ended up working for Dan. That's how I got to Ted. Somebody in Dan's staff recommended me to Ted. The really creepy thing started happening when I'd meet with him on Saturday, and then the next Wednesday he'd show up to be wearing the exact same clothes I was wearing. And he'd ask me where I hid my clothes, where I hid my shoes, what kind of car I drove, what kind of women I was with. Okay, wait, wait, there's just, wait.

John Henry, you're telling me so much. To the rest of the panel, please soak this in. Okay, because I've got to ferret this out. Wait he'd ask you where did you get that jacket where'd you get that shirt what car do you drive what women do you date i find that interesting he just throws the women in like you can buy one at the mall where'd you get that shirt who where'd you get that day where'd she come from okay that's a whole nother can of worms but then he'd show up wearing like the same outfit essentially that you were wearing right and then one of the creepiest i don't know if you know but i wrote a book wait wait no i did not know about you but what is the name of your

book it's called the devil's defender the devil's defender is that on amazon oh yeah actually amazon editors voted it the best non-fiction of that year. Best what book? Best nonfiction of that year. The Devil's Defender. Oh, okay. I know what I'm going to do on vacation. I'm reading The Devil's Defender. So one of the creepiest things in the whole Bundy adventure was he told me in Tallahassee,

in the jail there, when I secured a plea bargain for Chad. I don't know. A lot of people don't know that. But I secured a plea bargain for Ted. I don't know. A lot of people don't know that. But I secured a plea bargain to save his life. And one of those meetings in the jail in Tallahassee, I'm walking out of the jail cell. They gave me free access to him. And he said, the reason you've been my advisor so long and attorney at times is because we're so much alike. But that made you feel good.

I remember looking in the mirror in this cheap hotel in Tallahassel tallahassee and saying you know why are you doing this this is you don't want to be around this kind of evil i i never believed people could be born evil until i met chet so my attitude about that changed um dramatically okay wait wait wait do you think he's haunted you i don't think so I was ready for a good ghost story right now, and then you just blew it. Thank you. No, I think you and I have some similarities. In 1971 in Washington, D.C., when I was in law school, my girlfriend was in Berkeley going to graduate school, and she was murdered.

So I have this kind of dual role of zealous criminal defense attorney and at the same time being a victim of a homicide. She was in Berkeley and I didn't, of course, didn't get anything to do with it. I could never live with myself. But he did tell me later on in communications that he was active in California as well as seven or eight other states. And if I could jump to something that I think is kind of interesting between he and Kohlberger is, Kohlberger goes from a state, Washington, where there's no death penalty and an insanity defense to a state 10 miles away where there's no insanity defense and there's a death penalty. When Ted escaped the first time in Aspen, I flew when he got arrested and went to him in the Pitkin County Jail in Aspen. The Pitkin County Courthouse, have you been there Nancy? Yes, and

not only have I been there, I have interviewed a sheriff, a rookie sheriff that transported Bundy. What a story I was told. Yeah, I visited him a couple of days. That's after his first escape. Anyway, so I go down to the holding cell in the basement, which is the old-fashioned kind with the flat bars. Ted's sleeping on the floor, and one of the guards kicks the gate,

says, you've got a visitor, Bundy. And then Ted wakes up, looks at me, and he goes, John, did you figure out which one of those guys pushed me out of the window after his escape for those of you that don't know bundy escaped out of an upstairs window in the courthouse i believe it was the law library wasn't it john henry yes during that meeting with him or one of those meetings over the few days we are I advise them to waive extradition from Utah where they kill people and all the time and we've got some of the cases to go to Colorado because I thought the Colorado death penalty statute was probably unconstitutional so I told him

that and tend to ask me he said well John where would I go if I really wanted to get that penalty and you know what I said? Texas or Florida? Florida or Texas. And then he escapes a second time and goes to a number of states and ends up in Ann Arbor, Michigan, which did not have the death penalty at that point. And he's watching the Rose Bowl. And there's a little ticker tape on the bottom. Ted Bundy escapes.

He's already been gone for a day and a half. But he goes from state to state where there is insanity offenses and no death penalty and goes to a small college town in Florida. And so Kohlberger goes from Washington state where there's really no death penalty and there's active insanity defense to a state where there is no insanity defense, and they have the death penalty. Well, and hey, don't rush through your stories. What you're telling us are things many people don't know, have never known. So Dale Carson with me, a high-profile lawyer out of Jacksonville,

former fed with the FBI FBI instructor at the FBI Academy who taught the case of Ted Bundy and author of Arrest Proof Yourself. You can find him at DaleCarsonLaw.com. Dale, what about that? I've never heard that story where John Henry Brown walks in, they wake Bundy up up and he goes, hey, who pushed me through that library window? He had tried, he escaped. I mean, right, the anecdotal stories that emanate out of people like this is pretty incredible, really.

And it surprises me some that, you know, these attacks, both the Chi Omega House and in Idaho, you know, were done basically at the same time, not out investigators, police officers who identified everybody in field interrogations that were wandering around Tallahassee during that period of time, you know, from 10 p.m. until 5 a.m. And we found that roughly 60% of the people who were walking around in Tallahassee back in 74 were convicted criminals. So that was something that my takeaway from that all was that people who wander around in the middle of the night, even in a college town, really are causing trouble and looking for trouble. And certainly that was Bundy, you know, who went in as an anger, excitation rapist and killed two girls and injured severely some others. I mean, it's similar to what Koberger did in terms of his anger, excitation, which, of course, we recognize now he was able to slaughter five people.

It's horrible. There were four of them tonight. don't know five yeah yeah you know i want to go to dr bethany marshall and then bill warner joining us dr bethany marshall joining us psychoanalyst out of beverly hills at dr bethany marshall.com dr bethany hearing john henry speaking about Ted Bundy, it reinforces what we have been told about Bundy, that he could be charming and witty and funny and blend in. So these women meeting him were immediately put at ease. He was really good at it. Of course, Nancy. And this is how we learn about sociopaths. It's not from reading out of a textbook or looking at the research or even walking through a jail. It's through hearing stories from people like John, where he has this up close and personal

experience, like we're going to have with Koberger in the upcoming trial and the clothing aspect is so fascinating to me. I could pick apart all these details but I'll just pick up on a couple of them. One detail is the clothing. He wanted to dress like John. He wanted to charm and impress John and I'm thinking about a male sociopath who came to my office in Beverly Hills, who was about to be unguided for this multi-level marketing scheme, where he had taken millions and millions of dollars from people. It was like a cult. People would gather in this huge room and kind of worship him. They would all do this laying on of hands ceremony where this crowd would ripple from the back to the front and, you know, send positive energy and light towards him. They would all do this laying on of hands ceremony where this crowd would ripple from the

back to the front and, you know, send positive energy and light towards him. And the first thing I noticed when I opened the door to my waiting room in Beverly Hills was his clothing. He had like Gucci pants, Prada sunglasses, some kind of fancy shoes. I mean, he was really dressed like he was going to be out on a photo shoot. And I knew in a second I had this creepy feeling of he's trying to impress me. He's like a chameleon. It's like the clothes make the man. He thinks that if I see all this beautiful clothing, I'm not going to see through to the heart of who he really is.

So the clothing aspect doesn't surprise me. The idea of, I think you said, 64% of people wandering around in the middle of the night in a college town being criminals of some sort. And the fact that with Kohlberger and Bundy, both these crimes took place in sorority houses. This doesn't surprise me, this parallel, because women between the ages of 18 and 22 or 23, they're young, they're beautiful, they're out and about. They are readily available to the sociopath. The sociopath can walk up, talk to them, charm them, figure out where they live. And typically they have very low levels of security around them. And I could go on and on, but these girls are like sitting ducks. And I think this is one of the most prominent similarities I see is in the victim selection and the profiling of the women that two of these two men murdered.

Guys, we explore all of this in Parallels of Evil, which is running right now on Fox Nation. It was a Herculean effort. We all went to Idaho in the snow, in the cold, retraced Koberger's steps, visited the crime scene. Take a listen to Parallels of Evil, the Bundy in Idaho killing. Standing right here, I can see straight in the sliding glass doors, and I can see inside, and it's not even illuminated right now. This makes it very clear to me how easy it was to get to that downstairs sliding glass door. We've been asked many times, how close is this to campus? Well, there's a Sigma Chi house right there. I can see in their windows. Right behind that is a hill that we have been seeing people walking back and forth to classes.

The campus water tower is right there. And all along this street in front of 1122 King, all day long and into the night, students with their backpacks have been going back and forth to classes and to campus. So this is a vantage point with a bird's eye view. I wonder if by the time this goes to a jury, if the jury is going to be brought here. If they're going to stand here, just like I'm standing here. Just like where I think Brian Koberger stood here. At night, in the cover of darkness, looking in at the girls. It's a bird's eye view into their bedrooms.

Everything we could think of to explore and investigate this case to Coburger's apartment, to his neighbors, to his school, everywhere we could think of that Coburger was, we went. Listen to this. We are off the pavement now. We're on a dirt top road, seemingly in the middle of nothing, following Coburger's route from the so-called murder house back to his apartment in Pullman. And as you can see, there is nothing. No lights, no homes, no businesses as far as the eye can see. I just got out out there. You can't see a thing past 40 feet in front of your car. And there are a million places to hide a knife. You don't just fall onto this back road right here. You got to know where you're going. Between two snow drifts on either side,

you've got to know where you're going. To Bill Warner joining me, private investigator, you can find him at WBIPI.com. Bill, thank you for being with us. Bill, have you ever encountered a client, a defendant, a suspect, who just oozed evil? Oh, of course not. But what I find most interesting, though, is what John mentioned about Bundy. During the trial in Tallahassee, Bundy never really would admit to his guilt.

Even when he was offered a plea deal for 75 years in prison, he passed on it and went ahead with a trial and, of course, was found guilty and went to Old Sparky. But I'm seeing sort of a parallel with BK already. When he was arraigned recently, the judge asked for, you know, guilty, not guilty plea. He wouldn't talk. And the attorney for him or two attorneys for him didn't weigh in with a non guilty or guilty. The judge had to give the not guilty plea. It looks to me like Kohlberger is trying to overtake his attorneys already. He's going to make a show of this, which, of course, Bundy did big time. Looking into both

of these guys, Kohlberger, does he want to be Bundy? I think he does. Kohlberger, to me, I see this clone of Bundy. This is John Henry. Let me jump in here because there's been a lot of discussion about why his attorney, Kohlberger's attorney asked the judge to enter a plea and there's no insanity defense in Idaho, which is interesting because I thought it was constitutional under McNaughton. But anyway, when I've tried over 300 cases and been doing this for a long time, if I have a client that I think is incompetent, is incompetent,

legally incompetent, I will not allow them to enter a plea. I don't see that here at all. Well, wait a minute. John Henry Brown, I see what you're saying because mental incompetency, everybody different from insanity. Insanity under the old McNaughton rule, which was brought to the U.S. from Great Britain

where we get our common law, is did you know right from wrong at the time of the incident if you didn't you're crazy incompetency means you can you're so out of it for whatever reason you cannot assist your lawyers at trial now this jurisdiction Idaho does have incompetency if he can enter a plea and stand up and say not guilty, that indicates he can help his lawyer, which would, as John Henry Brown is pointing out, defeat an incompetency claim. That's very astute. Right. I think ethically a defense lawyer can't allow his client to make a plea if the lawyer has reasonable belief that they may be incompetent. Now, it may be the only card to play in Idaho.

It may be, but what they'll do is send him to a hospital and get him, quote, well, unquote, and then he'll face trial. Yes, exactly. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I want to follow up on something to Audrey Conklin and Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, first to you, Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University. Joe Scott, we're talking about how charming Bundy was. All right. Well, describe what he would do post-mortem after murdering his victims. Well, one of the things that he would do is he would he was actually somewhat of a necrophile,

Nancy, which means that he was intimate with the dead. Why do you talk like that? He had sex with dead bodies and dead body parts. That's what you're saying. Yeah, he did. That's not charming. Well, no, I don't think that it's charming at all certainly and i've seen cases like this uh involving serial serial perpetrators in the past uh particularly when they get into areas like the posing of the

dead this kind of fantastical thing that they get into tk he was a freak yeah the victims put makeup on them and he would actually go back and disinter the dead as well and so yeah there's there's that kind of thread that runs through this and it's almost like a continued destruction of the dead uh to be able to manipulate them play around with them those sorts of things which adds a completely a different layer of horror to all of this and it really goes goes to how deeply sadistic he was and you know one other other fact about Bundy is that Bundy derived quite a bit of pleasure from a very specific thing and that's biting he enjoyed biting his victims because he could actually experience their discomfort and their pain as a result of driving his teeth, you know, for instance,

into their backside, into their shoulders, into their back. And of course, back then, bite mark was still held in very high esteem and it was actually used. Well, Bundy did have an unusual set of chompers. He did. I always compare it to biting into jello. I don't put a lot of stock in forensic dentistry. No, no. In Bundy's case, his teeth marks were so unusual that I think it can be trusted in Bundy's case.

Come on, the bite mark is not really persuasive. And it wasn't jello, Nancy, it was pigs that the odontologist had people bite into, which I had some fun with him at one point. It was Margaret Bowman that had the bite marks. Thank you, John Henry Brown, for telling me that. And the other thing to keep in mind, one of the things that I find striking about Culver and Bundy is that there was no sex involved in the death of the women at Chi Omega. And there was no sex, as far as I know, as far as the situation at night. No, there's not. You're right. And I talked to Ted about these things at night.

He would more often than not, not have sex with his victims. But there are times when he would. I guess he was more into having sex with them after they were dead and their body parts. What about it, Joe Scott? The fact, again, playing with the dead, you know, where you have this inanimate individual that they can manipulate. And you see it in a lot of these cases. You just look at Dahmer. You know, he wanted to create these kind of zombies that he could manipulate and do things with them.

And otherwise, an uncontrolled life, perhaps. I don't know i'm getting into dr bethany's area but suffice it to say that uh you know it was uh a depraved mind certainly in his particular case and we see a lot of these and that's one of the things that really goes to coberger for me nancy because he had had access to this particular dwelling. We don't think that at this point in time that there's any kind of sexual assault, but that doesn't mean that these were not a sexualized event. And he could be living this stuff out in his mind. I've always been interested, very interested since that apartment, since that home in Idaho

was so easily accessible. Had he been in there before? Did he have a hide, perhaps, in one of those closets? Did they look for touch DNA? Did they look for old seminal stains in those closets where he could sit there and observe individuals, perhaps the victims that he targeted, and watch everything they were doing without them knowing that he was there? Joe, what about the stab wounds and their appearance? Where were they?

Well, the stab wounds are through over multiple surfaces from what we're understanding right now. And, of course, there's a lot of people that allege, this is people in academia, that there is a close correlation between stabbing and sexualization of the dead. It's the thought of thrusting with a knife over and over and over. It's a penetrative event. And again, you're wreaking just incredible havoc. There's an awareness of it too. There is an awareness certainly on one of the victims that we know of because she's got

defensive wounds on her where she was aware that she was being stabbed. And I think you probably derive pleasure from that. Guys, I want to circle back to Audrey Conklin joining us, investigative crime reporter for Fox News Digital, who has been on the Koberger case from the get go. Audrey, again, thank you for being with us. In our special investigation, Parallels of Evil, where we go back to Idaho and retrace steps and visit every location that we can think of to shine a light on the investigation, we about how Bundy could be very charming and could blend in, even with his own lawyer, John Henry Brown, who's with us right now? I'm thinking about Koberger and how he tried to insinuate himself in the victims' lives on social media. So he was stalking them long before they were murdered, based on what we've been told anyway.

We don't know if the girls read it or not. But trying to insinuate himself in their lives, but he did not have the natural charm that Bundy had. He couldn't turn it on and turn it off. Listen. When I met his dad, he was like, um, so I was talking to his dad outside first because his dad was out there. Brian must have been organizing the house, the apartment. Um, he was like, I want you to meet my son Brian.

He has some trouble making friends sometimes. And then he came down and uh, he was a little odd, you know, but I'm kind of odd to some people so I didn't think much of it. Remember how he almost, odd, you know, but I'm kind of odd to some people, so I didn't think much of it. Remember how he almost, well, not almost, he did get thrown out of bars for walking up to women and trying to, I guess, flirt with him, and his opening line would be, hey, what's your home address? Yeah, well, that didn't work. The emails or the social media didn't work so I wonder if he then escalated to spying on them in some manner the way Joe Scott Morgan is describing so what do you make of his just innate unsophisticated and somewhat of a stumbling bumpkin approach to women Audrey Conklin that's a stark difference between the

two. It is. And that's kind of the difference between a crime in the 1970s. And today, we have social media is a huge part of it, right? And there's speculation that he followed the victims on social media. They were in sororities, as we know, they had social media presences that were public, they had pretty pictures on Instagram and other accounts. So yeah, their, their social lives were out there for him to see. And if he was not having luck with them online, because a lot of flirting takes place online, or even just talking communication nowadays between college students. We know from the affidavit that he drove by the house before the crimes and after the murders, or allegedly. His car was picked up in that area.

So we know that there was a fascination there with the victim. And we also know that he was a PhD student studying criminology at a nearby university. That was about a 10-minute drive away. To Dr. Bethany, what about the fact that was just brought out, Dr. Bethany, that neither Bundy nor Koberger had sex, raped these victims. And I'm not talking about all the victims. I'm talking about the Chi Omega victims and the Idaho victims. I think that Coburger and Bundy were so perverse, so depraved, that normal penetration, asking a girl out, wooing them, taking them to dinner, courting them, maybe eventually marrying or having sex. These normal interactions between adults, they were too far gone.

They were too far down the depravity scale. So the fact that they didn't penetrate doesn't mean that it wasn't sexual in nature. It could be, as Joe Scott Morgan pointed out, as they were as a cobra or perhaps hanging out in the closet, watching these students masturbating to thoughts of them and not just thoughts of caressing them, having sex with them, penetrating them, but masturbating to the thoughts of plunging a knife into them, which as another panelist pointed out, is kind of a pseudo-sexual type of act, plunging the knife, like plunging the penis. And remember, Koberger, there was another victim where he took a suitcase out of her car, rummaged the items out, took a pair of underwear, and then stuffed it into a cup holder, which I also thought was sort of a depraved pseudo-sexual act.

And, you know, rage, anger, sadism, all kind of coalesce in the mind of the serial killer. So it could be that Koberger was stabbing the victims, and then he was in a sexual frenzy, stopped to masturbate. You know, I know it's hard to imagine all of that happening at once or masturbated on the way home. So we can't think of it as sex in the normal way. Many of these offenders have sexual erectile insufficiency and can't do it anyway. That's part of their dilemma, which makes them, for some of them, crazy as they are.

That is Dale Carson speaking. John Henry Brown, quick question. As you have watched the Koeberger case unfold, what memories has it brought back to you regarding your time with Ted Bundy? And how do you compare the two? I would like to say, Nancy that and everybody should know that Ted actually gave me a release of the attorney client privilege otherwise I would not be having this conversation okay

what creepy is you remember I'm sure Nancy you've seen the composite drawing done by witnesses at Carobaca of the guy going up the stairs with a stick in his hand and now anybody in the task force in washington or idaho i certainly or utah or colorado would immediately say that's ted bundy but we didn't have

social media back then we didn't have communication between police authorities the way we do now because any of the task force members in this area or Colorado or Utah would say that's Ted Bundy. It would be solved immediately because that's a strikingly similar composite of Ted. What I find is, you know, I think all I can say is that both incidents and the ones we know about with Ted are the ones that are alleged against Koberger are rage. And being a sociopath is not being crazy. Sociopaths don't always have to be criminals. I mean, sometimes they're, let's say, politicians. The rage is what the first thing I thought about when I heard about Koberger was the rage and how the rage was similar to Ted's.

And the reason for that, I don't know. He was a sociopath. There's no question about it in my mind. I don't know about Koberger. I'd be speculating at this point. But the rage is really scary. And I don't, you know, I wonder, I wonder whether the authorities are investigating the possibility

of other homicides with COVID. Yes, yes. Guys, we explored this and so much more in Parallels of Evil, playing now on Fox Nation. I want to thank all of my guests that joined me today. And I'll see you again, lady and gentleman, in round two. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.