Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - BURN NOTICE: A DOZEN DEAD, THOUSANDS HOMELESS, SUSPECT FILMED FIRE FIGHTERS AFTER SETTING DEADLY PALISADES BLAZE

Episode Date: October 9, 2025

An arrest made in the arson fire that burned down the Palisades earlier this year, killing 12 people, destroying more than 6,800 structures, both homes and businesses, and damaging over a 1,000 more buildings. 29-year-old Jonathan Rinderknecht, after dropping off an Uber passenger in Pacific Palisades, parked his car, tried but failed to contact a former friend. He gett out of the car, walks up a nearby trail, takes iPhone videos, and listens to a rap song. Its music video, includes objects being lit on fire. Then twelve minutes into the new year, a fire is started.    With weak cell service, Rinderknecht walks back down the trail, continually calling 911 until he finally connects, only to find out other residents already reported the fire.   As Rinderknecht drives away,  he passes firefighters, and turns back to watch them on scene. He records while firefighters quickly extinguish the blaze, or so they thought. The dense underbrush makes it difficult to see, and the roots underground continue to smolder. A week after the 911 calls reporting the Lachman fire, the Santa Ana Winds create an explosion of deadly fire, spreading the remains of the Lachman fire across LA, freshly named the Palisades fire.   Investigators question Rinderknecht as he repeatedly called 911 about the January 1st fire. During those calls, Rinderknect asked ChatGPT, "Are you at fault if a fire is lit because of your cigarettes?"  Rinderknecht gives conflicting statements about whether he smoked near the trail that night and where he was when he called. Rinderknecht claims he was at the bottom of the trail, but location data shows while speaking with 911 he’s just 30 feet from the fire’s origin.   Ultimately Rinderknecht is charged.    Joining Nancy Grace today:  Stephanie Lydecker -   Executive Producer & Host of True Crime Tonight, Founder & CEO of KT-Studios.com    Alexandra Pfeifer - Victim   Dr. Bethany Marshall  - Psychoanalyst, Author: "Deal Breaker,”  featured in hit show: "Paris in Love" on Peacock, www.drbethanymarshall.com , Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, Twitter: @DrBethanyLive Dina Doll  - Attorney, Trial Consultant, Mediator & Legal Analyst, Doll Amir Eley, LLP, website: www.dollamir.com  Moses Castillo  -  Private Investigator for the Dordulian  Law Group, Former Supervisor Detective from The Los Angeles Police Department, website: MosesCastilloInvestigations.com   Nicholle Brock -  Firefighter, EMT, and arson expert   Dr. Kendall Crowns  -  Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth), Lecturer: Burnett School of Medicine at TCU (Texas Christian University)   Shannon Butler  -  Investigative Reporter  WFTV Channel 9  Florida Sydney Sumner - Investigative Reporter, 'Crime Stories'   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Breaking news tonight, burn notice. A dozen dead that we know of, thousands left homeless. And now we learn the suspect filmed firefighters after setting the one and only deadly palisades, blaze that just ate up property, homes, churches, synagogues, and people. I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime stories.

I want to thank you for being with us. People said there's a fire in your area. And that's when I ran upstairs to see if I could see anything and saw flames everywhere and realized that we didn't really have a second longer. And this is the most devastating night. any of us have covered. Nothing left and people dead. You start a fire and a death occurs. That's a felony and I am not going to be happy until these these perps are apprehended in charge to the max. Is that finally happening tonight a bombshell in the

Palisades fire case? I want you to hear the US attorney. As the world watched in horror as the Palisades fire burned victims perished in the smoke and flames. Homes were cherished family memories and belongings were turned to rubble in ash. The iconic Pacific Coast Highway along Malibu looked like a war zone. Thousands of people were forced to evacuate. Though homes and businesses cannot be rebuilt. It's one thing to hear the U.S. Attorney speaking about what happened. It's another thing entirely to hear from an actual victim,

I'm straight out to Stephanie Leidecker, Stephanie, formerly of L.A. She is the executive producer, host of True Crime Tonight, founder, CEO of KT. Studios. Stephanie, with your background, this must have felt like a movie production, except it was real, and you have your son. You're a single mom. You've got a son you have to say. What happens, Stephanie? You know, I was just working from home.

I lived right off of sunset at the time, and I started noticing cars basically backing up in front of my house, and that's very unusual because it's a dead end. And I was on a work zoom, and I went outside, and sure enough, you could see the blaze coming, and if anyone knows that area, sort of by Temescal Canyon and sunset, it is gridlock on a good day.

So suddenly everyone's trying to evacuate, and, you know, people were abandoning cars in front of me and running on foot, which I understood because it felt as though there was a chance we wouldn't get out. Yes, and my son, you know, thankfully, we're all good. He was evacuated from his school and we were the lucky ones. You know, the structure that I was living in remained by the grace of God. But I can promise you, so many of the people and neighbors and loved ones, you know, people who have lived in their home for 45 plus years, this is it. They are wiped to the ground, and there's no real way to start over. And to say it was an apocalypse, it's an understatement. So my heart goes out to everyone

who is still sort of going through the ashes and picking up the pieces because it really hasn't stopped yet. You know, people are still living with those who they evacuated to. Can you imagine? So, yeah, hopefully there's some justice to be had. Stephanie Leidecker, you stated that you noticed cars were beginning to back up, bumper to bumper right outside your home. And that's odd in a residential area to suddenly see a parking lot outside your front door. Completely. And then you look out and see flames. Where were the flames? I was slightly like kind of really near ground zero. There were just up ahead on the top of the hill, I was, you know, fairly new to the area, too, so I was so ill-prepared for this. I went out, saw the flames, and realized everybody who was backing up on

my street was literally trying to evacuate. There's only one way out. And remember, as people abandon their cars, fire trucks can't get in. And then residents can't get out. So, you know, it took, you know, over six hours to get, you know, a mile and a half because as the time progressed, it went from clear sky to smoke to straight fog. You know, your phone isn't working because you don't have satellite reception. You know, it's harrowing kids and pets. And you just grabbed your phone and went out. In my case, I didn't assume I would be back in maybe 15 minutes

and that this was just a little something. And boy, was I wrong. The devastation is really unmatched. And listen, we're firefighters and law enforcement and the people who really put their lives on the law. line to keep all of us safe. I'm so grateful. You know, Stephanie, you stated that your son, your beautiful boy, was evacuated from his school. Yeah. And see, that would throw me over the edge, not knowing, did the twins get evacuated? Where are they? When can I get to them? How can I

get to them? That's one of my greatest fears being separated from them and a time of emergency, and I can't get to them. What was going through your mind is you can see the fire. Yeah. And you don't have your son. And you can't really communicate, right? So I'm so grateful that the middle school he was attending, they really went above and beyond and were able to evacuate the entire school to a further location.

But again, you don't know where that location is because you're struggling with communication. And I will say this, you know, people say this. I can attest to it now, you know, that is all that mattered was getting to him, nothing else did, and I put my money where my mouth is on that one. You know, stuff is stuff, but safety, people lost their lives. 12 people were killed in this fire, you know, and the devastation isn't over yet. So yes, just getting to my son, seeing him and wrapping my arms around him, I felt in my heart, we were divinely guided. and continue to be so to some extent. You know, to psychoanalyst joining us out of the California jurisdiction, Dr. Bethany Marshall, she's the author of Deal Breakers. She's currently on Peacock, and you can find her at Dr. Bethanymarshal.com. Who are these people?

You hear Allison is still trying to get everyone out of her house, trying to save them. There's six people that she's got to evacuate two children, two elderly parents, herself, her husband, and all the pets, all of this, all of that. And she looks up and she sees guys pulling up to start looting houses. She's not even out of the house yet. You know, Nancy, this happened so quickly. And Nancy, this happened so quickly. It was like a giant was standing over the Pacific Palisades with a blow torch.

This was not a fire. This was the whole area being torched. And that these looters had the time to get there tells me that, you know, after every, like, a riot, a demonstration, a fire. criminals move in very quickly afterwards. And I think it's a group of people who are actually wanting to loot and they're just waiting for the right opportunity. And Nancy, one more thing to place this into context, it wasn't just the Palisades.

It was out to Dina because I have an office nearby. And I have colleagues and friends who are sitting with their patients and they saw the fire coming over the hill. I have patients who want to move back home. They could rebuild the fires, the house. they've lost. But there's no infrastructure. There's no churches. There's no synagogues, no running water, no neighbors, no community. So it's not just the destruction of each individual home. It's the destruction of everything. And I have one patient who had a million dollar home. The insurance,

the insurance company offered her $200,000 to rebuild the home. And she can't do it with that. In addition to all the property damage you're hearing about, at least 12 people die. And now, who did it? Just, I hope you're sitting down. Listen. Today, we are announcing the arrest of 29-year-old Jonathan Rindernecht for igniting a fire that ultimately burned down the Palisades earlier this year, killing 12 people, destroying more than 6,800. structures, both homes and businesses, and damaging over a thousand more buildings. Who is this guy? And why? Why? Burn notice. How can we prove an arson? First, it's very

difficult to do. You have to prove, first of all, that a crime occurred, that this was not some sort of an accident, but then intent, that a crime was intended. Who in the world would cause such an incident claiming the lives of at least 12 and ruining literally thousands of acres ripping people from their homes and they can never go back. Who is this guy? Growing up in France, Renderneck is now living in Pacific Palisades

working as an Uber driver. In the fall, Renderneck feeds Chad GPT, a detailed prompt, blending imagery of a dystopian painting divided into parts that blend together seamlessly. Fire, fear, rich people, and the poor. A month later, he tells a family member he burned his Bible and describes it to chat GPT as liberating. As the year comes to an end, his last passengers of 2024 described the 29-year-old as agitated and angry. I don't understand what I'm hearing.

He tells a family member he burned his Bible and he said it was liberating and he is relentlessly searching chat GPT. He blends an imagery of a dystopian painting divided into parts. Fire, fear, rich people, and poor. And the fire is looming down on all of them. That's his work. He created that. Sidney Sumner. That's absolutely correct.

Investigators found that Renderneck created a concerning chat GPT prompt. So he asked Chat GPT, this AI service, to create an image of a city essentially burning down. So it created 12 different shots and you see the fire tearing through this city and people running out of the city into the woods for cover. It's very, very disturbing. It is disturbing and I would say probative that it proves something. But to Dina Dahl joining us out of this jurisdiction, trial lawyer, attorney, trial consultant, Dina, if they want to make these charges stick, they're going to need more than a dystopian painting depicting a fire looming down on all parts

of some dystopian city. They're going to need more than that. Absolutely. I mean, the fact that he wants this image and also the fact that he listened to a song, which I'm sure you'll talk about as well, you know, people's art aren't great. you know, motivation in court, you know, presenting a picture and a song somebody listened to. As you said, arson is going to be very difficult to prove. And this, you know, how somebody enjoys their music or what images they like to see, that's going to be hard to connect the dots to a jury. This is what the U.S. attorney says happened. Let's hear it from the horse's mouth.

After dropping off a passenger in Pacific Palisades, Rinderneck parked his car and tried and failed to contact a former friend. He exited the car, walked up a nearby trail, took iPhone videos at a nearby hilltop, and listened to a rap song whose music video, including objects being lit on fire. The defendant had listened to this. song and watched its music video repeatedly in the days leading up to the Lockman fire. Twelve minutes into the new year, environmental sensing platforms indicated that a fire had started. Isn't it true, Sidney Sumner, Crime Stories, investigative reporter, that he listened to this song over and over and over, and it's all about burning, burning things down? Yes, Renderneck listened to this song repeatedly in the days.

leading up to the Lockman fire. A song that he was playing on Loop, let's listen to it. He played that over and over and over on Loop. That from at Jocelyn. So the state's going to need more than what he was listening. to in his ear pod, and they're going to need more than some wacky dystopian painting. They're going to need hard evidence to prove an arson case. Guys, joining me right now, Shannon Butler investigative reporter, WFTV Channel 9, Florida.

She just walked out a federal court a few hours ago where she observed the suspect at his first court appearance. Shannon Butler, what happened? Yeah, Nancy, we just got out of this federal courthouse here in downtown Orlando. this was a detention hearing. And what the judge decided is that he is too much of a flight risk to be allowed bond. So he will remain behind bars here in Orlando until he has transferred then back to L.A. There is another hearing now on October 17th.

Well, they will present some more of that evidence, not preliminary hearing. But today the judge was concerned about his mental state and his living arrangement. He had been living in Florida for about the last five months, living with his sister and brother-in-law. But in the last month, two 911 calls were made from that home. The first call came about September 17th where the family members told them there was a disturbance inside the home where he threatened to burn their house down. Now, just a week later, another 911 call from that home where his father said, said that he had a gun and was threatening to shoot his brother-in-law if his brother-in-law started to come towards him and he needed to do that in self-defense. So the family really

put painting a picture for us here of a declining mental state. Okay, uh, Shannon Butler, don't move. Shannon Butler joining us, investigative reporter WFTV, Channel 9, Florida. You said the judge stated the suspect is a flight risk, which leads to me to my first, question. What's he doing in Florida? If he can make it all the way from California to Florida, he clearly is a flight risk. What did he drive his Uber car there? Well, he did drive his car from California to Florida, but the judge said he also has ties to France. It's where another brother and his father live. He lived there for some time. He even speaks French. They were concerned about that. They were also concerned because he made some comments that he may go try to live in Bali.

All of those things. Oh, another thing, Nancy, he told investigators that he could not find his passport. It was lost. That, of course, raising quite a concern for the judge when you don't know where your passport is. They said, well, what is lost could be found. Shannon Butler, joining us outside the courthouse. You're absolutely correct, Shannon. He grew up in France. He lived there many, many years. Then he goes to Pacific Palisades. I don't know what occurred in between that, France and Pacific Palisades. Now he's in Melbourne, Florida. And he's been working as an Uber job. driver, as a matter of fact, according to the federal government, just before he started the fire, the pallet that turned into the Palisades fire, he had just dropped off his first Uber passenger of the year. He lives on chat GPT, which is going to be a treasurer trove for prosecutors. But let me understand he's not getting bond. Is that right? That is correct. He will will remain here in Orlando until another hearing where he has for evidence here on October 17th. After that, it remains to be seen when he will then head back to California to face these charges.

Remember, Nancy, these are just the beginning of what could be more and more charges right now, facing a mandatory minimum of five years up to 20 or so. But now they're looking at the possibility of 20 to the death penalty. Because remember, a dozen deaths there in California. Yeah, you know what? A dozen deaths. If that doesn't qualify for the death penalty, I don't know what will. And I'm going to get into it with Dina Dole in just a moment regarding felony murder.

But Shannon Butler, what was your observation of him in court? So he walked in in a red jumpsuit. He was a little bit disheveled. He has long hair. He was disheveled. He did engage with his public defender quite a bit, sometimes smiling, shaking his head a lot at what the prosecutors were saying. The prosecutors had some conversations with the courtroom about him breaking up with a girl

just before he allegedly started this fire that he broke up with her and he was in kind of a bad state, didn't have any friends, didn't have a network, and that's kind of when things started to go downhill. Shannon, stop, stop right there. You think I care? He broke up with his girlfriend. who on this panel has never been dumped, at least once. We've all been dumped by somebody and we've all dumped somebody. So what? Wait, he is, what, in a bad place? What, what are you saying to me he was in

a bad place? He had a car. He had ear pods. He had a full stomach, a place to stay, gasoline in his car. You know, people around the world, that means he's in the top one percent of people in the world. So what do you mean he's in a bad place so bad? He had to kill 12 people and destroy the lives. Did you hear Stephanie Leidecker? Her whole place gone. Her son evacuated. She didn't even know where he was. Yeah, that's what the prosecutor has basically said that what has happened to him was not, didn't really give a good excuse for what happened here. They said when they approached him and started to interview him back in January, that he told a lot of lies to those investigators. They wouldn't, he wouldn't answer questions like, what kind of cigarettes do you smoke?

And today in court, they found out not only did they know he had one gun that he was keeping Nancy in a bear with a zipper on it, a child's toy. That's where he was keeping this gun. But today, the special agent got on the stand and said just today they got some evidence. back that he had a second gun in his possession that they knew nothing about. They said he wasn't very honest in those original interviews, and that was another reason they thought he should stay here behind bars. Straight back out to Shannon Butler, WFTV, Channel 9, who has been in the courtroom observing the defendant.

This is a huge break in the case. It's very hard to determine first whether a case is arson because the evidence is all burned up. And then if it is arson, intentional, who did it? The last thing you want is a firebug, a pyromaniac with two guns wandering around who's threatening people. So the judge did the right thing, keeping him behind bars. But you stated that he was, you said, shaking his head.

I assume that means shaking his head, no, not nodding his head, yes, correct? Correct. Did he say anything in court? No, he didn't. The only thing that he said. said was the judge asked him again how to pronounce his name and he gave him the pronunciation of his name but that's all all he said in this about an hour and a half hearing this morning Shannon Butler you said that he was disagreeing with what the prosecutors were saying

yeah he shook his head when they started talking about his ex-girlfriend that on New Year's Eve right before this fire started he had text his ex she did not answer he had text somebody else that said, no, I don't want to hang out. I need some space. And then a third person he texts to try to hang out with on New Year's Eve said they didn't remember him. So he was shaking his head during that and a couple of other times when they were talking about those incidents inside the home where he was living. Nancy, let me point out too that the brother-in-law and the sister were so afraid inside their home. They wanted to get him out. And police said, you know, you probably should leave. Here's how you evict somebody, but they were so scared in the meantime, they moved out of their

own home, and he was living in that house by himself because the brother-in-law and the sister did not want to live with him anymore with their kids. They thought he was just not in the right state of mind given the last couple of things that had happened. Wow. His sister and her husband and children move out of their own home rather than live with him. They're out of fear. Okay. I see a case beginning, the building of a case. It's not just a sub-dispopian painting he created on chat GPT. It's not just listening to lyrics where you see a guy burning up money, starting a fire in a trash can and you watch it over and over and over.

And the guy singing is just totally miserable. But we're getting more evidence. We're getting more evidence. I want you to hear what the U.S. attorney has to say. It took the defendant several tries to contact 911 to report the fire. He fled the scene in his car, but turned around after passing fire engines driving in the opposite direction to fight the fire. While the Lockman fire burned, the defendant walked up the same trail from earlier that night to watch the fire and firefighters, using his iPhone to take short videos of the scene. To Dina Dahl joining us, veteran trial lawyer out of this jurisdiction, you've got the alleged

perp calling 911 over and over and over from the scene where the fire started. That speaks to me. That means something. In fact, one of the biggest arson cases I ever investigated and prosecuted, the perp himself called 911. He's a millionaire. there. When the fire trucks arrived, he was lying, oh, a Romanesque, on the lawn across the street from his home, which was in flames. After about four or five minutes, he goes, oh, yeah, my wife's in

there. Yeah, he called 911, just like this guy's calling 911. What about it, Dina Dahl? Well, I think what you said there, alleged, we've got to remember here, you know, he's innocent until proven guilty, and that's not nothing, right? This applies regardless of how bad we think the crime is. And just because he called, I mean, to your point, what you said earlier, arson has to be intentional. It has to be malicious. The fact that he called so many times, his defense attorney, I am sure, will argue that if they can, if they're even going to concede that he lit the fire, it was accidental. And that is the evidence of him trying to call so many times was him trying to get the fire stopped.

showing guilt, but actually showing his innocence. Oh, okay. Stephanie Lidecker joining us. She and her boy were evacuated after the fire threatened their lives. Did you know in between calling 911? He was video. He was leaving. He was leaving the scene. Then he sees fire trucks coming went, oh, I want to video that. He turns around, follows the fire trucks and comes back and videos them risking their lives to fight the fire. So I don't know if I could add a felony count of purve, but you're leaving the scene of a fire you allegedly started. But you see, oh, here come guys and women about to risk their lives. One may die. I better get that on video and goes back. While all this is happening, people have been evacuated, they're dying, and he's

videoing it. That doesn't bother you because it bothers me. Yeah, it bothers me a lot. Imagine what kind of a sicko would actually set a fire intentionally, if in fact this is what he did, allegedly, allegedly, allegedly, allegedly, then to offer to help firefighters to help fight the blaze that he potentially started for himself. Is this an idea that he'll be a hero? Well, he'll be a hero. Well, he be the guy that is now suddenly relevant because he's destroyed so many lives. I personally would like him to come talk to you about it. I'll hide behind you as backup. But if this is true, it is so devastating that one person could do this to so many.

You know, Stephanie, you just brought up the idea. Did he want to pretend he was the hero? Let's analyze his acts. So he goes to the scene before the fire starts. He's there before the fire starts. the fire starts. He tries to call 911. Then he leaves. He then sees fire trucks coming and decides, I'm not leaving. I'm going to go video them while they fight the blaze. And he stays there and takes video. As his rap song plays over and over, and he can see in the video a guy starting

fires. And we've heard from Shannon Butler about how distraught he was. He had no one to hang out with on New Year's Eve. Really? Whoa. I mean, tell that to everybody who's lost absolutely everything. And also the loss of life, it's unimaginable. And this guy got dumped by his girlfriend and suddenly that's enough. He was feeling lost in the sauce about what life was meant for him. He had a job. To your point, he had ear pods, if in fact this is true. And it really goes to show that we are that disconnected that on New Year's day, the start of a fresh year, this person decides that he's going to take matters into his own hands and have some dystopian photo of, look at these videos right now. The destruction is unimaginable. It's a town

that's been completely wiped off the mat. It's literally just chimneys and abandoned cars. And, you know, the ripple effect is real. Everyone is still traumatized by the event. I can't tell you how many neighbors and friends I speak to, that are just lost because there's nowhere to go. There's no money to start over. So if you're lucky enough, and listen, I'm one of them that was like, I'm out. There's a new life someplace else

because I'm too scared to look over my shoulder at this point. But imagine those who have lost absolutely everything. Their life is an ash, and they have to now stay and figure out how to push on in this town that is now still very far away from being habitable.

Crime stories with Nancy Grace. During calls, Renderneck asked Chat GPT, are you at fault if a fire is lit because of your cigarettes? Renderneck gives conflicting statements about whether he smoked near the trail that night and where he was when he called. Renderneck claims he was at the bottom of the trail, but location data shows while Speaking with 911, he's just 30 feet from the fire's origin. He lied about where he was when he first saw the Lockman fire, claiming he was near the bottom of a hiking trail.

Geolocation data for the 911 call showed that he was standing above the fire in a clearing merely 30 feet from the blaze as it rapidly grew. Asking JAT GPT, is it my fault if I started a fire with a cigarette? straight out to Moses Castillo joining me, private investigator for the Dordulian Law Group, former supervising detective with the LAPD. And you can find him at Moses Costillo Investigations.com. Really? Starting a fire. Is it my fault if I kill 12 people with a cigarette, started a fire, then I ran from the scene, then I decided to video the cops and the firefighters because I thought maybe one of them would die.

I mean, what is a jury going to make? of this. Do you believe that's going to be the defense? Moses Castillo? I accidentally started a fire with a cigarette with all this other extrinsic circumstantial evidence. Okay, Nancy, this is no fireworks, no lighting, no power lines. Just one man, one lighter, and a trail of digital bread comes. He filmed this fire. He chased the fire trucks, and he asked AI and be liable. That's not remorse. That's rehearsal. What do you mean by that, Moses Castillo? I mean that he pre-planned this. He intended to do this. what I do believe it's going to be very challenging for the government to prove their case

is the fact that the fire department, they thought they put this fire out, and seven, six or seven days later, the wind reignited. I think that's going to be a bigger issue for the government's case. So let me give you a comparison, Moses Castillo. I shoot you in the leg. I aim for your heart, but I get your leg. And you linger in the hospital for six days, and then the gunshot wound to your leg causes a pulmonary ambulism, and it goes to your brain, and you die.

So what? I'm not going to be charged with murder? Think about it, Moses. Answer. Well, you bring a very good point, and yes, that person should be charged for murder because it was me. But in any event here, I do believe that there are enough evidence, circumstantial evidence, and digital footprints that can get him convicted.

I'm just saying that the defense is going to argue, you know, if the fire department would have done their job properly, this wouldn't have happened. I think it's going to be a defense. I don't buy it. I think he definitely has the profile of somebody who would do something like this. And this is just, this should be treated as a violent crime, not just arson by itself. Okay, I want to get back to what Moses Castillo, who is a private eye there in California, is saying. Listen to what the U.S. attorney said. Although firefighters suppressed the blaze, the fire continued to smolder and burn underground within the root structure of the dense vegetation. So that fire started on January 1st, and it smoldered underground for about a week until on January 7th, heavy winds caused this underground fire to surface and spread above ground, causing what became. known as the Palisades fire. One of the most destructive wildfires in Los Angeles

City history. Joining us, Nicole Brock, she is a veteran firefighter and EMT. Arson expert of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Nicole Brock, what is a hold over fire? Well, hold over fires, Nancy, are firefighters' worst nightmares. They are the fires that once we believe that they have been out, we've extinguished the fire, they have a way of rekindling. And a lot of jurisdictions, like mine. We called them rekindle fires. Nicole Brock, the theory is, according to the defense, this was an accidental fire started by a cigarette. How do you prove arson? So again, arsons are difficult to prove and to link it back to one cigarette is going to be hard. The big overwhelming thing with looking for arson in this particular situation is the ignition piece. How many

ignition points? The things that they're going to be looking for are fuel. Was there fuel that was used. And that's easy to detect too because you'll see a different charing that comes differently than you would see with something that just started with natural vegetation. I believe that unfortunately with this particular suspect, I think he's going to have a hard time with trying to prove his case and that he used a cigarette or he accidentally started a cigarette. All of his actions point back to arson activity. Arson, these are things that arsonists do. Straight out to a special guest joining us, Alexandra Pfeiffer, her home destroyed in the Palisades fire.

Alexandra, thank you for being with us. Thanks for having me. I appreciate your coverage. Alexandra, what happened that day? I've been listening to you guys discussing just the fire and the seven-day gap. So in the morning, just before lunchtime around 11, those of us, I live on a bluff below where the fire started. And if you looked up to the top of the crest of the hills that were behind us, you could

see smoke. And fire in our neighborhood is not uncommon. We've had a lot of brush fires. This felt different. And the thing is, is from that fire from the first that they put out, there had been warnings all week that we were gonna have. I mean, the Santa Ana wins are a thing. We know about them, we were being warned.

So I mean, if in fact this is arson, and I kind of agree with the firefighter who said seven days is a long time for a re-ignition of a fire, but the winds were horrible, even in the earlier part of the day. And the fire started at around 11 and change, and by the late afternoon, I mean, it was everywhere.

So I left, fairly early because I've grown up there. I know our community and the fire just felt different this time. And you're now seeing images of what remained of my home and my entire neighborhood. I mean, every house was gone by the evening, by 10 or 11 at night. Alexandra, what did you mean when you said this felt different? Something about the speed. When I walked outside and my driveway sort of if you looked north, you could see the mountain.

fairly clearly and you could see the movement of the fire coming down the hill and it was already windy it just had there was just a feeling of of a greater threat and people usually with us we have a fire warning we all tend to evacuate if we know there's a brush fire people were running around in our you know in their putting their animals in their car and I just looked around and it just felt different it felt a little more more ominous. The smoke was darker. It just, I don't know, I think growing up there, you just know it was, I knew it when I was leaving that the devastation was going to be more than we had seen. I certainly didn't think this would happen, but it just, the winds were

already strong, and usually the winds pick up at night, and it was already windy by midday. So I just, I don't know. I think those of us who lived there, we just had a feeling that it was. You knew. Yeah. Dr. Bethany Marshall joining a psycho analyst in this. jurisdiction. Dr. Bethany, I think it's instinct. For instance, when you are driving down the interstate, you look over there and you see a brush fire, and you're not afraid. It doesn't put you in fear, as opposed to what Alexandra is saying, she knew in her bones this was different and immediately started to evacuate. It was just a feeling. It was instinct, Nancy. It's a survival instinct. You know, I was in my Santa Barbara home, which is about an hour and a half north of the

Pacific Palisades, and I felt it psychologically up here. The winds were so horrendous. I was afraid they were going to blow the roof off of my house. I had a very eerie feeling, and then I turned on the news and I heard about the Palisades. And this perp, this alleged perp, Nancy, you know, what I think is so terrifying about this is that he did rehearse, like Moses said. I think this was sexually exciting to him. Pyromania is a compulsion, just like compulsive masturbating, compulsive gambling, compulsive binging and purging. Often there's a buildup of feelings that the perpetrator cannot self-regulate.

And the only way to neutralize the feeling is to engage in the act. And in this case, it is pyromania. Alexandra, Fifer, joining us, who lost her home. happened you see the fire you realize people are evacuating you know in your bones i could die my family could die what did you do well i was my my biggest regret is i just left i had more time than i realized but listening to you i think you're right i i am a pretty strong-willed person i i i trust my instincts i did feel that it was not going to end well and i i we had My daughter had bunny rabbits.

I put them in my car and I just drove away. But I also had friends who lived. So there are a lot of different pockets of the palisades for those people who don't know the palisades. Everybody thinks it's just a small little niche neighborhood in LA. It's pretty vast and there are different neighborhoods and some people live up on the hill.

One of my friends who lived up on the hill called me as she was driving down the hill and her car caught fire. So I didn't want to wait, but I, because I didn't wait, I lost all of my belongings. I had no time. I just put our animals in the car and I drove away. And my assistant who worked for me was stuck in traffic and couldn't get out.

So, I mean, I feel like it was about for me, I just felt it was more important that I got out than I got my things out. And so everything perished except for our animals. Other people waited a little bit longer and were able to get some of their personal belongings out, but, you know, their lives were at risk. I just felt like it was more important to leave. Dr. Kimmel Crowns joining us, Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County, Fort Worth, esteemed lecturer Burnett School of Medicine at TCU, and star of a hit new podcast, Mayhem in the morgue. Dodger Crowns, in my experience of investigating and prosecuting arsons, which are

a highly technical case to prosecute, you have to have a certain expertise to do that. Typically, victims die in three ways. They either suffocate, they actually burn to death, or an object falls on them, and they die because of blunt force trauma. Dr. Kendall Crowns, people that die of smoke inhalation, they live for a period of time. They know they're dying, Dr. Crowns. Yes, that's correct. when the smoke is building up, as many of the people that testified to today, that your eyes burn, your throat's burning, you're starting to get mucus production, you're coughing, you're hacking, you're gagging, and as you're breathing in this smoke, you're also breathing in carbon monoxide. The carbon monoxide is causing you your body to displace oxygen and now you're no longer getting proper oxygen to your tissues. And eventually you'll not get enough.

oxygen because of the carbon monoxide and your tissues will die and then you die and this takes place over several minutes to even a half hour or so depending on how high the smoke is how much carbon monoxide there is so yes you're very aware of what's going on during that time period trying to get out trying to escape coughing you know gagging whatever but you can't get out and then you're correct the other ones are things collapse fall on you and pin you and then you burn to that, or you just get surrounded by the fire and you burn from that as well. And then the fire itself burning you is extreme pain and you're in pain for several seconds to a few minutes until you finally succumb to shock and pass out.

Alexander Pfeiffer joining us who lost her entire home in the Palisades fire. That could have been you, what Dr. Kendall Crowns just described. I hope you never feel remorse about not getting your things. Makes me so emotional, Nancy, but here's what a lot of people don't say, and I said this earlier on when this happened, is that this happened in the day. If this had happened at night and the fire had started at 6 p.m., not 11 a.m., think about how many people have no landlines, take sleeping pills, don't check their turn their cell phones off at night. I mean, of course, any loss of life, nobody should have died in this fire, but imagine if it had happened at night and if it had burned and escalated in the middle of the night, I think about it constantly. I'm very grateful that I don't, I'm here and that I can, you know, have time with my family following this and the things don't matter. You're right.

But it's still, it doesn't leave your head. And now we remember American heroes, the heroes that evacuated saving their lives and the lives of others, the firefighters who risked their own lives to save the lives of others in the Palisades fire. And tonight, we not only wait as justice unfolds, we pray that justice unfolds. and rains down on this case. Good night, friend.