Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Can an undertaker sell your body parts? You might want to check! 13 kids suffer parents' house of horrors

Episode Date: January 17, 2018

Is it legal for a funeral home to sell your loved one's body parts and gold teeth? Nancy Grace is surprised to learn that it is legal in many cases in some states. Funeral law expert Wendy Weiner, lawyer & child advocate Ashley Willcott, forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, and reporter John Lemley look at what a Colorado undertaker is accused of doing. A California couple is jailed after police found a dozen of their children chained to beds in malnourished in their suburban home. Nancy and her experts discuss the case against David Allen Turpin and Louise Anna Turpin, who are charged with torture and child endangerment. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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plus indicator strips to see how Super Beets works for you. And free shipping! 800-516-0683 or go to nancysbeats.com today crime stories with nancy grace now online at crimeonline.com and on sirius xm 132 Having just gone through my dad going to heaven and then out of the blue, completely unexpectedly, my husband's mother and father pass away within a few months of each other. All this happens in a 24-month period. I am overwhelmed trying to even think back on everything that happened and trying to explain to the children and just trying to process my father being gone and then Mr. and Ms. Lynch, who I've known for so long.

And amazingly, people, for all of you that have maybe wondered, do you know my mother and father-in-law never said a crossword to me, ever. They accepted me just the way I am. Exactly. Never tried to tell me how to raise the twins. I can't say that from my mother, but I can say it from my mother and father-in-law. And I think about them every single day. So when I read and learned and began to investigate this case, where a funeral home Funeral home is running, allegedly, a side business selling human body parts and made so much money selling dead people's gold teeth, the owner's mother took the whole family to Disneyland? Are you kidding me?

I just, oh, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. And I am not going to rest until this case is resolved in a satisfactory manner. To any of you that are listening right now, have you ever lost someone so dear to you, you can barely think about it? Well, I have many times. Straight out to John Limley, Crime Stories investigative reporter, joining me along with Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert and professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, Ashley Wilcott, lawyer and child advocate, and our death care law expert.

Special guest joining me, Wendy Wiener. Thank you, everyone, for being with us. First to you, John Limley. Please tell me I had the facts wrong. Unfortunately, you are absolutely correct. And I'd love to begin with one specific story involved in all this. It's the story of a man named Rex Dunlap. He was a frugal Colorado man, 78 years old. He had been battling brain cancer. And before he died in 2016, the man was able to save $200 on cremation by agreeing to pledge parts of his body to a

company named Donor Services. This is a what's called a body brokerage operation that sells body parts. Okay, wait, wait, wait, right there. Hold on, hold on. Hold your horses, John Limley. I'm just visually imagining, you know, Wendy. Now, I know this is not your area of expertise, but I want you to imagine with me. A guy, an elderly guy, who's trying to save money and decides to go with cremation to save $200 and donate his organs. Wendy, I'm just imagining that guy planning his own funeral. Nancy, that's actually one of the touch points in this story. Very, very prevalent these days are the body donation companies. The story we're talking about this morning really touches on two major issues

happening in the death care industry right now, which is what to do with what are called recyclables and what we're just speaking about right now, which is the body donation companies where a family is. Wendy, you know how I feel about you and your daughters. And I guess I'll throw your husband into that pot. We met in a swimming pool. She was barely dressed when I first met her.

Okay, I'm just putting that out there. But Wendy Wiener is one of this country's renowned death care law experts. Wendy, did you just call human parts recyclables? Did you actually say that? No, no. The recyclables that I'm referring to are what you mentioned earlier in the story, which is the gold and the teeth and other metal that comes from human remains. But what you're referring to... Okay, God bless you.

God bless you. I'm so glad you did not refer to this poor man's heart as a recyclable because I was going to do a backflip if I could still do one. Okay, Wendy, go ahead about the recyclables. I want to hear that. Hold on, John Limley. I know you're chomping at the bit. Hold on.

Let's hear from Wendy. No problem. So two issues. Let's talk first about the second issue that we were just speaking about, No problem. this marketplace, the death care marketplace, should be targeting families offering free cremation services in exchange for the donation of the human remains. Once those human remains are donated, then there are some death care licensees that do not provide what they've promised to the families. And as in this case, it looks like potentially at least there's the allegation that the human

remains or portions thereof were sold for profit. Now, hold on, Wendy. You're starting to sound a little too much like a lawyer for my taste. Hold on a moment. You're telling me that they strike a deal with the soon-to-be deceased person where they give free cremation in exchange for recyclables such as gold teeth and metal implants but then they don't live up to it no no they give free cremation in exchange for the actual human remains. And then those human remains are donated sometimes for scientific and educational purposes,

other times for organ harvesting, lots of different schemes and ballot programs that do exist. But there are those occasions where licensees that have the human remains in their possession are profiting from those human remains. Okay, something just doesn't seem right to me. Ashley Wilcott and Joseph Scott Morgan, but I don't quite know what it is, but I know this, I know I don't like it. Now, does that mean it's illegal? No, it does not. And I want organ harvesting and go ahead. People hate me, but I want stem cell research too,

because my brother-in-law has been suffering with MS as long as I can remember now. And stem cell research is one of the only ways that he could be helped in my mind among other advancements but this organ harvesting i like the idea but somehow the way it's playing out doesn't seem exactly right i smell something fishy okay john limley crime stories investigative reporter let's just start at the beginning again the frugal 70 plus year old agrees to have cremation in exchange for take it away right rex dunlap this man in colorado agrees to pledge parts of his body to this company donor services that sells body parts for education and research he paid the owner of the business me Megan Hess, $495 to take his body.

He left one specific request, one specific instruction. The glass eye that he had worn since he was a child, an accident when he was a child, should be removed and sent to his best friend. Now, that friend was then to place the glass eye in an urn containing half of Dunlap's ashes and bury the urn on top of the grave of Dunlap's father in Telluride, Colorado. Now, this shows Rex Dunlap had a great sense of humor because along with his ashes and the glass eye was to be a note reading, here's looking at you. The rest of his ashes would be buried with Dunlap's mother. You know what? I love this guy. I love this guy. I love his sense of humor so much. So Ashley Wilcott, he clearly, clearly was a deep thinker and soulful to come up with this.

He wanted to be buried with his father. And he actually had a sense of humor about meeting his maker. And those were his wishes. Right, Ash? Right. Completely agree. Here's what's missing. Any respect for our deceased. This entire scenario, there's no respect for our deceased.

And that's why now it becomes a crime and the way they've treated these last wishes. John Limley, I still don't get the crime part in the Disney. The all expenses included Disneyland trip. The owner throws. So get me to the crime. Sure. This is a good time to point out that Megan Hess was running more than just a body brokerage firm. Out of this very same facility, she operated Sunset Mesa Funeral Home and Crematory. This is where the family of Rex Dunlap was told that the staff of Sunset Mesa could not find the glass eye

just a day or so after his death. Not only that, the employee who picked up the body and brought it to the facility claimed that the glass eye couldn't be removed before Dunlap's head was severed, embalmed, and shipped to researchers. What's more, the company had no idea how to get in touch with the researcher who received the head. This Sunset Mesa employee's name is Shirley Koch, and she just happens to be the mother of the owner, Megan Hess. Now, after Hess was threatened with a lawsuit for losing the eye, she wrote the family a check for $500, a refund of the money that Dunlap had paid to donate. I don't want the $500. I want the glass eye. Right. To hay with the $500. In the scheme of things, it didn't hurt

Megan Hess one bit to part with this half a grand because she was making big bucks selling off Rex Dunlap's body parts. And as you pointed out, even more astonishing is that this practice is not against the law in Colorado or anywhere else in the U.S. for that matter. So also, let me understand this family tree here. We've got Megan Hess is the owner of Sunset Mesa Funeral Home and Crematory in Colorado. Her mother is Koch, Shirley Koch. Now, is it true that there are allegations that Koch would pull teeth from the corpses to extract gold in the crowns or fillings and would actually to sell them? And she would actually show her collection of gold teeth. She would show off the collection and she ended up taking the whole family to Disneyland on the gold teeth that they cashed in.

I don't think that's what the donors had in mind. No, one ex-employee said she was especially troubled by the practices of Hess's mother, Shirley Koch, who embalmed and dismembered bodies, pulled teeth from many of the corpses to extract the gold and crowns and fillings. Koch showed this woman a collection of gold one day and said she sold a different batch the year before. And that was when she and her daughter, Megan Hess, had taken the whole family to Disneyland in California on the gold that they cashed in. No! Oh, that is hurting me to think that someone could possibly do that to my father. Oh, dear Lord in heaven.

Oh, I don't want to hear that, but I've heard it now, and I cannot unhear it. Is it true? Tell me what you think about this. Wendy Wiener, death care law expert. Wendy, there is also the problem, and again, I don't know that this is illegal. I don't know that any of this is illegal, and all of these are allegations as of right now, as of yet unproved. But this Hess person that owns Sunset Mesa Funeral Home and Crematory allegedly also owns donor services. That is a body broker operation and has a crematory.

Both are from the same building. Now, is that ethical? Ethical versus legal, you know, that's a difficult line to draw. To my knowledge, particularly in Colorado, where they are located, it was not illegal. It's not typical for a funeral establishment to be actually operating one of the body brokerage or organ donation businesses from its own facility. Much more common for those businesses to contract with a separate body donation company to provide those services to the families that desire them. But, you know, it does happen. It does happen. Well, I believe that it is legal in Colorado. Right now, the Colorado Department of Regulatory Agencies has stated it has nine open complaints about the business,

which they say is, quote, higher than average. I'm concerned. To me, it's kind of akin to a hospital running an organ, a human organ business. I mean, can they at least wait for you to be declared dead before they take your organs to sell them? Just go ahead. Nancy, the key here really for the death care industry, and I think it's what one of your other guests was getting at, is that there is a level of disclosure that is required for the family so that families can make informed choices. And it is really the gold standard in our death care industry for the companies that

provide the free cremations in exchange for receipt of and use of the human remains. And similarly, it's the responsibility of the death care licensees who operate the recycling programs where they collect the gold from teeth or the metal from implants, and then they sell that metal to a recycling company. The key is that the family interacting with the death care licensee should know exactly what it is that they are getting. You're right. Exactly what they're agreeing to. You're right. It's all about disclosure to the client. I mean, I doubt pretty seriously this guy, Rex, had any idea his teeth would be pulled for the whole family to go on a trip to Disneyland but for all I know he may have said with his sense of humor who cares

you know I'm getting a break on my cremation I don't care what they do with my teeth so you know I don't know the answer to that what concerns me Joseph Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, is how many people are there that have passed through that funeral home or any funeral home that may have had, for instance, their teeth pulled or their organs harvested without them knowing. And the only way to figure that out is to exhume the bodies. And that's not going to happen, Joe Scott Morgan. No, it's not. And most of the general public is completely unaware that any of this goes on. As you remember, Nancy, I worked at the coroner's office in New Orleans and the medical examiner in Atlanta.

And in addition to being a medical legal death investigator, I've also prosected over 7,000 human remains. I've spent a lot of time in the morgue. I've spent a lot of time around people in the funeral industry. And this is a dirty little secret that goes on. Let's think about some of the precious metals that are involved in here. Everything has a price point, Nancy, everything. We're talking about things like titanium. We're talking about things like gold.

We're talking about things like silver. In addition to that, you have pacemakers that are being removed from bodies. Any kind of other medical appliance, as they are referred to, can be removed and recycled and sent down the line. Families are not fully aware of this most of the time, and it's almost like a shell game when you think about it. She's offering roughly half a grand service that is probably valued in reality at about $200. And then what they make, where they really make their money here, is that they piecemeal out human remains. It's really very disgusting. I've come across any number of things like this over the course of my career that have literally caused me to regurgitate in my mouth when I think about it. Because let's face it, Nancy, we know that we represent victims on this show. And who

is a real victim in this? You've got a person, as all of us can identify with, that is at the lowest ebb and flow in their life. They've lost somebody that they love. They're just going to almost childlike turn themselves and the services and the care of their loved one over to somebody, a total stranger, and it's a business transaction. And that's what the general public doesn't realize. It is a business transaction.

Now, the funeral industry will try to tell you. They will try to tell you, oh, we're going to be there for you in your time of want and woe and your grief. How many television advertisements have we seen like this? And it's got a real air of distaste. Most of the time, in my experience, the general public is sold something that they don't need. They don't need in the first place. And then you essentially have someone that is, for lack of a better term, and I don't mean this in the consumption viewpoint, but literally bodies are being cannibalized relative to what value they

have. And it's a very sad commentary, very sad commentary. Well, I know that when my dad passed away, they could not have been nicer to us at Snow's. It's a little memorial chapel in Macon. And I remember when my mother and father-in-law passed away all together and they were at Moelle's, they could not have been nicer to us. So it's the exact opposite of what I'm hearing about right now. But when I think about families out there that have no idea what's happening, and living through that is bad enough. But then to find out this is what happened, it's just devastating.

What we are talking about are all allegations. Nothing has of yet been proved. But I know this. The FBI is on it, the Federal Bureau of Investigations. And the last thing you want to see is them pulling up in your driveway. I can tell you that much. Nancy, can I jump in? Go ahead. To say, you know, let's be careful about painting the death care industry with too broad a brush. I can say unequivocally with 25 years of experience representing funeral home owners and operators and cemetery owners and operators and the professionals that work in that business.

For many, many, many of the people that work in the industry, it is truly a calling, like a calling to the ministry, and they are there to serve families. But just as in every industry, there will be actors, there will be participants who do not do the right thing. And in this case, it appears from the allegations that the families were not told what they were getting, they were not told what they were agreeing to, and they were misled. And that is, in fact, against the law. It's against the statutory scheme in every state to mislead the funeral buying public. country do their best to prosecute and pursue regulatorily those members of the industry that don't do the right thing. You know, Wendy, Wendy Wiener is with me, a renowned death care law

expert. Wendy, I'm glad you said that, because I think that what you're saying about the funeral industry is kind of reflective of people in general. I really believe that most people are good. I do. I believe most people are good and good hearted. The ones that are not are the ones we hear about and we read about and make the headlines. But for the most part, I think you're right about the funeral industry because what they did for my mom and my husband's family at such a horrible time in our lives, it's irreplaceable. And I think it is a calling. I really do. And our prayers with

this guy's family for what they're going through right now. I want to pause and thank our partner making our program today, exposing what is happening allegedly at this funeral home. LegalZoom, what's your story in 2018? The holidays are over. There's no excuse left. Now, let LegalZoom make this a memorable year before other distractions take hold. Make this the year you get serious about launching and running your business. Or, rest easier knowing your family's future is squared away with the right estate plan. LegalZoom has been helping people just like us take care of dreams and responsibilities over 16 years. They're not a law firm, but they have a

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LegalZoom, thank you not only for what you do for Americans across the country every day, but for being our partner. We are headed now to Paris, California, where starving children beg police for food when they are found chained to their beds. Police rescuing 13 children. 13 children starved and chained to their beds by whom else other than their reclusive and bankrupt parents. 13 children. Straight out to John Limley, Crime Stories investigative reporter. John, what happened? Well, one of the first reports, Nancy, was from the end of October

when a woman who lived nearby, Wendy Martinez, called police and said she saw four children kneeling in the front yard of a single-story ranch-style house looking emaciated and pale. They were on their knees, four little kids, and they were just rolling on the grass. And she thought it was very odd, especially at that time of night. Their mother was standing in the archway, and she said she remembered the mother and said hi. There was no movement, not even to look over to see who's saying hi, like if they told someone not to speak to anyone. She asked whether she thought the children needed help, and the woman just did not respond at all.

Others said they had seen the children digging for food in garbage bins, but had not taken notice as it didn't look sinister. Another neighbor said she had seen the children before, joking that they were like the vampire family in the Twilight books and films because they were really, really pale and only came out at night. The couple had been living in this house for quite some time, did not socialize with any of their neighbors. And it was just this past week that the siblings were found chained to their beds in their family home, begging for food.

Oh, dear Lord in heaven. Wait, wait, wait. Ashley Wilcott with me, lawyer and high-profile child advocate. Ashley, I've been investigating this, and just then my mind flashed where I did not want it to go, and that is to my own children. And imagining the brutality of chaining beautiful children, innocent children, chaining them to a bed, starving them. I've just overcome Ashley.

Don't you want to chain the parents to a bed and let them starve to death? I hate to say it that way, but I do. Twelve siblings. Twelve. Do you know how many people can't have children that I know? And this family has twelve children they then torture for their lives. Some of these children are now adults. They're over 18, and they were also padlocked to the bed. It's horrific torture.

Well, the thing is, Ashley, it reminds me of a case when I was busting a child prostitution ring and we hit the streets. It was cold outside and I was so broke as a prosecutor working two night jobs. My coat was so thin and it was cold outside and we would be outside all day, Ashley, going from flop house to flop house to here to there to find this one girl that was 13. And we finally found her. And I went in to the motel room. And there were like five women sitting around, I came back out to my investigator said, Ernest, there's not a kid in there. They're all like 35 years old. He went, no, go back in. It's the girl in the white boots. I went in this girl who was 13 with the weave and the eyelashes and the high heel boots. She looked like she was 35.

I'm not kidding. In this case, it's the exact opposite. When police break into that home, the children are so starved. There's a child in their 20s that they think is about 10 years old. I mean, Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert joining me, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. How can a 20 somethingsomething look like their 10? Well, Nancy, when we are deprived of everything that we need in this world, water, food, hey, even sunlight and movement, it wears on the body. It wears. It actually accelerates to a great degree aging.

And can you imagine these precious children being held captive in this environment, essentially, deprived of all of these things that, you know, that keep us going at a scientific level, at a biological level, but also just this soul-crushing environment where it's just, I mean, can you imagine? It's like being a prisoner of war where there's no hope. There's absolutely no hope whatsoever. You know, they were they homeschooling? I mean, how did they how do you have this many children? And nobody notices. They only come out at night and no offense to the the neighbors but if i repeatedly see children digging through trash i'm gonna report it ellen duke could you please roll the neighbors the older kids they i thought

they were like 12 because they look so malnourished so pale i'm surprised there was 13 people there like i didn't even know that i thought they had like three kids they're small they're they didn't like they didn't even know that. I thought they had, like, three kids. They're small. They didn't, like, they didn't try to communicate with other people. They weren't looking around. They would look down. It's heartbreaking. And to, now to know that there was that much kids in there and not even know about it, then it's like, I wish there was something this community could have done.

Guilt. You can't but feel that. Who knew that this was going on? I mean, if we had known, we would have turned this in a lot sooner. You darn right I'm going to report it. John Limley, Crime Stories investigative reporter, what did you say about a neighbor saw them digging through trash but thought they looked like they were having fun? Yeah, it was just so out of place in this neighborhood that they couldn't even fathom the fact that they might really be searching for something to eat. Nice front yard, perfect grass, perfect shrubs. The, you know, the kind of a red roof with the individual shingles up there, like Mediterranean, a two-car garage, an enclosed front door, a big window in the front, manicured.

I mean, but now I know it's anything but. What would you say to the parents? Um, that they should go to hell, to be honest. They should. They shouldn't even. I don't think anybody like that should even be parents. You know, before I head back to Paris, California, I've just got to ask Ashley Wilcott. You have children. You work all the time, just like me. Are you ever tired, Ashley? Are you exhausted? All the time. All the time. We have kids. Of course, we're always tired. Okay, me too. I live on hot tea. It's everywhere. That's what, by the way, according to me, that's what I have in my Yeti, according to me. It's hot tea to keep me going. Well, I have an answer for you, Ashley. Super Beets. S-U-P-E-R-B-E-E-T-S. And I love them. I didn't know about them. I had been hearing about, quote, superfoods. Every time

I go online, something pops up about now it's quinoa. Now it's sunchokes. What are they? Every time I go online, I find out about a new superfood, nutritionally dense foods that are really good for you and your body. Well, one of the most powerful superfoods, beets. We all know as we age, our bodies change. You have less energy. You get fatigued. Often it's because of a decrease in circulation. But if you give your body what it needs, it increases your natural, healthy circulation. And that is why I drink Super Beats. And I've even given it to some of my female relatives.

And they love it. My husband is next. Super Beats promotes your body's own natural ability to produce healthy circulation that gives you increased energy and stamina all day long. Circulation allows your blood to take oxygen to all the parts of your body. Only Super Beats made from beets grown to very exacting standards. They're then concentrated into superfood crystals. You just add water. If you want to give your body what it needs, call 800-516-0683 or go to nancysbeets.com. N-A-N-C-Y-S Beats. B-E-E-T-S dot com. With your first order, you even get a 30-day supply of Super Beats for free. And they give you indicator strips to see how Super Beats working for you, plus free shipping. That's 800-516-0683. Or go to nancybeats.com today. It has worked for me.

I now believe in superfoods because of Super Beets. Super Beets, thanks. Back to Paris, California. Police rescuing 13 children. It's a house of horrors. And I don't understand how outwardly it could look so normal, but inside the children are starving and they're ch chapel and slow dancing. I'm overwhelmed, Ashley, because I was reading about it and began investigating this case, and I wouldn't let

myself think about my own children. I mean, just today, I practically had to chase John David to make him put chapstick on. I had to chase him, Ashley, because I was so worried that his lips might hurt during school. Okay. And these children are chained to their bed. I mean, how could relatives not know, Ashley? No, somebody knew. I do not, absolutely do not believe that no one knew. Or like you said, the neighbors.

When you see these things happen, this is what kills me. So many people say, oh, DFACS dropped the ball. The state agency didn't do what they were supposed to. Well, guess what? If nobody reports these things to them, they don't even have an opportunity to step in and investigate. All of the things that have already been said before emaciated the neighbor said they looked emaciated i'm like you a i can't imagine any of these things happening to my children much less doing them b if i see children like that i call and make a

referral because it's the right thing to do to protect children. And nobody did it. I do not believe relatives didn't know. There's no way you do not torture 12 children like this without somebody knowing something's wrong in that house. And everybody failed to protect. Let me understand something else. How does a homeschooling thing work exactly? And let me tell you something. I have a cousin who lives in Florida, and she homeschools her children because she did not think they were getting the education she wanted them to get in public school. These children can quote Shakespeare. They're in elementary grades.

And, I mean, they're way, way educated past their grade school. Okay, so I'm not knocking homeschooling. That's not where I'm coming from. But this is my question, Ashley Wilcott. How do you homeschool and nobody ever comes from the state to check it out? I mean, I could say I'm homeschooling and we could, you know, lay around and watch Murdoch mysteries all day on Amazon. I mean, how do they regulate homeschooling? I'm amazed at what they don't do to regulate. So in the state of Georgia specifically, you go in Nancy Grace and say, I'm going to homeschool my children. Okay. Fill out this form. That's one page. Okay. I'll do that. Lucy and John David are now going to homeschool my children. Okay, fill out this form that's one page. Okay, I'll do that. Lucy and John David are now going to be homeschooled,

and that's what I'm going to do, and I'm going to do it well. That's it. That's the end of it. There is no regulation. There is no checking to see what are you teaching them. There is no curriculum that is one that you have to confirm or verify your teaching. So at least in the state of Georgia, anybody can say they're homeschooling their children,

whether they're actually educating their children or not. So I would not assume that these 12 siblings that were padlocked to beds have been educated. You know, I'm just overwhelmed. Some of the neighbors didn't even know that the family had children. Hello, there's 13 of them. Now, the reason you're hearing some of us say 13 and some of us say 12, because when cops got there, there were 12 there, which I'm going to explain to you. But John Limley, investigative reporter, how is it some neighbors didn't even know that there were children?

Hello, there's 13 of them in there. This is testament to how little these children, some of these adult children, were let out of the house. They were essentially prisoners in their own home. And it was not until their 17-year-old sister, who fled the home and alerted cops, it was not until she took this brave move that there was any idea that anything was really wrong. And that's when the police found this family of children padlocked to their beds, dirty, starving. Padlocked and filthy, filthy, filthy and starving. Alan Duke, could you please roll, please? A 17-year-old girl called 911 from a deactivated cell phone

and reported that her siblings were being held against their will and some were chained. Deputies met with that 17-year-old nearby, and she explained that she had escaped through a window from that residence. The 17-year-old also showed some photos that led the deputies to believe that the information she was provided was accurate. Deputies and a supervisor responded to that location, conducted a welfare check to check on the additional siblings in that home.

There were a total of 13 siblings located, six of which were under the age of 18. Deputies, when they arrived inside the house, they noticed that the children were malnourished. It was very dirty, and the conditions were horrific. Allen, when the 17-year-old girl made it to police, they thought she was 10 years old, Allen. Yes, she was emaciated. She did not look like she was 17. As Joe Scott Morgan said, you deny them water and food, they're going to age very quickly. I mean, I'm looking at these, the photos of their bowel renewal, it's not actually a wedding, but they were renewing their bowels. They look like they were happy and having a good time, which makes me think, did this horror just start in the last year or two? Oh, no, no.

There's no way. Because remember, the neighbors that had lived there for years had no idea the children were even in there. So, Ashley Wilcott, I want to go to you and Joseph Scott Morgan. First to you, Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor of Forensics at Jacksonville State University. Joseph Scott, what do you have to do for a 17-year-old girl to be starved down to have the appearance of a 10-year-old? Well, it's deprivation, deprivation of basic necessities, Nancy. And I agree with Alan. This is not something that, you know, just kind of occurred

in a vacuum in a short period of time. This is something that has gone on forever. And the reason when they're talking about her appearance as a young child, I think at least that they're talking about the fact that she appeared diminutive. And as we all know, if we have children, there is a growing curve that these kids are on. There's an expectation that you're going to meet nutritionally to help them grow. And my suspicion is that they had not met these. If they're keeping food away from her and these other children, they might very well appear to be diminutive.

They're not going to be muscled. Their bone growth is going to be compromised. And even down to things like their teeth, I'm not just talking about miscare where they're rotten. I'm talking about where bad nutrition promotes things like teeth falling out. And there's all kinds of other health issues here that it just really, it makes you sit back and just scratch your head. How can you sit there? How can you sit there living in this house and watch this happen to your kids? And they were filthy, filthy,

starved and chained to the bed. And Ashley Wilcott, I hope you're sitting down. You may need to lie down for this one. Ashley, they're not like people that don't know better. The husband had actually worked as a successful engineer and was earning about $150,000 a year. His wife was listed as a homemaker. I mean, these are educated people, Ashley. It's almost like they had a break with reality. So I know that the records indicate they declared bankruptcy. They have become sadistic tortures of these children that clearly it doesn't happen in isolation. These are not, I can tell you statistically in the many, many cases that I've worked in that I've seen, this does not happen one time and, oh, one night we padlocked our children to the bed and this is how the children now look.

This is years of statistic abuse by these parents. And so one of the lessons to be learned from this is child abuse crosses all demographics. It can be educated individuals, rich individuals, poor individuals. It crosses every demographic. And here's a prime example. They're educated earners and look what they're doing to their children. So to you, John Limley, Crime Stories investigative reporter, what's going to happen to these parents? I hope they rot in hell, chained to their beds and starved. Well, they have been charged with torture and child endangerment. David Allen Turpin, the father, is 57 years old. His wife, 49-year-old Louise Anna Turpin, as it's been revealed, the parents filed for bankruptcy.

He had gone through a couple of engineering jobs. It's interesting to point out that even family members didn't realize what was going on. David's parents, James and Betty Turpin, said they were surprised and shocked at the news about their own grandchildren. This couple, they live in West Virginia, said they had not visited the family for four or five years, but, quote, spat on the floor twice in front of the cops when they arrived to raid the home and save the children. And those children would still be in that home starving right now as you and I go about our business today, working, taking care of our children, planning this and that. And those children just sitting there with their stomachs in pain, the gnawing hunger,

chained to a bed. She spat on the floor as the cops showed up at her door with a smirk on her face. Well, maybe that smirk will be wiped off her face behind bars. Right now, it's a $9 million bail. And I can only say I think it's too low. We do need to acknowledge the courage of a young girl who escaped from that residence to bring attention so they can get the help that they so needed.

Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.