Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - CAN BEE POLLEN SOLVE GIRL-IN-SUITCASE MYSTERY?

Episode Date: June 28, 2023

A terrifying find by a Texas man cutting grass: a suitcase with baby clothes, pampers, and the remains of a little girl, inside.  Forensic testing identifies the girl as a 2 to 5-year-old. The tot's body is underdeveloped, and medical supplies with the body indicated she suffered from a serious medical condition. The remains were recovered in Texas, but pollen found on the belongings points to somewhere further west. The hope is that the pollen, medical equipment and sketches will help unravel who she is and what happened to her.  Joining Nancy Grace Today: Irv Miller- Criminal Defense Attorney, The Miller Firm, Legal Analyst: CBS2 Chicago WBBM-TV and legal technical advisor to “THE GOOD WIFE” and “THE GOOD FIGHT”-CBS productions Dr. Carla Manly - Clinical Psychologist, Author of “Date Smart: Transform Your Relationships & Love Fearlessly”  Dorian Bond - Former Detective in Arizona, Private Detective and Owner of Bond Investigations Inc. in Dallas, TX, (largest African American-owned private investigative firm in the United States); Twitter:@bondinvestigate Dr. Tim Gallagher - Medical Examiner State of Florida; Lecturer, University of Florida Medical School Forensic Medicine; Founder/Host: International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference   Daphne Young - National Chief Communications Officer, Child Help, Childhelp.org  William Johnson - Arizona KAGS News Anchor; Twitter: @Willjohnsonnews See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A man out cutting grass comes upon a gruesome discovery. A little girl in a suitcase. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. Listen to our friends at KTRK.

A man cutting grass here in this pasture off I-45 found a container. Inside were baby clothes, pampers, and the remains of a little girl, just left out in the middle of nowhere. You know, when you open a container, the skull was definitely identifiable. The jawbone was in plain sight, and it's not an animal. And so that's when your heart sinks. You think, oh, mercy, what in the world here? Investigators believe someone from out of town left that little girl's body here in Madisonville,

and her remains have been hidden in that desolate pasture for more than six months. I think the big city came to the country. On a Tuesday evening here in this small town of Madisonville, 105, the local barbecue restaurant is packed. I mean, everybody knows everybody. Everyone at dinner talking about the mystery baby. It's pretty much on everybody's tongue today.

We don't have these cases very often. The shocking discovery made over the weekend. Finding a child is just heartbreaking. With me and all-star panel to pick apart what we know right now, the remains of a little girl believed to be between two and six years old, stuffed in a suitcase, found by a stranger out cutting the grass. First, let's go to investigative reporter with KAGS News anchor, William Johnson. William, thank you for being with us.

Tell us about the discovery of this girl in a suitcase. The body was found on September 17th. And from what I can understand, the little girl was somewhere between two to six years old. They really didn't make that definitive. But she had dark brown hair and she was somewhere from the southwest region. Joining me right now, Daphne Young, National Chief Communications Officer with ChildHelp at ChildHelp.org. Daphne, thank you for being with us. I know you see this type of scenario every day, but I want to try to analyze what we know right now. We know the little girl is folded

over inside of a suitcase. We know that this happened around Madisonville, Texas. We also know that it was out in a pasture off a major highway, and I find that significant. First of all, Daphne, let's talk about the fact that this little girl, we believe is five years old, but could be anywhere between two and six, in a suitcase off a major highway. Let's talk about the conditions under which the little girl is found. In an attempt to solve this mystery, what do you make of the fact that she's so near a major highway? And that tells us that there's a high likelihood that she was pitched out of a vehicle like trash. She may have been transported over a long area. She was wrapped up and concealed. That tells me, obviously, that there's a great deal that whomever was involved put into trying to hide this little child's identity, trying to wrap her up, but also wanted to potentially hide where they were from.

And throwing this little tiny child in a suitcase and throwing her out of a moving car on a highway would allow them to get right back on that major thoroughfare and get to their next location or even return home. Let's talk about Madisonville, Texas, because Daphne Young just touched a nerve. Who would put this child, a five-year-old little girl, in a suitcase and leave her out in a pasture to decompose? First of all, Madisonville is the county seat of Madison County. The population is only about 5,000 people. That greatly reduces the number of potential suspects. Straight out to Irv Miller joining me, renowned defense attorney with the Miller firm. He also is legal advisor to The Good Wife and The Good Fight by CBS. And you can often find him on WBBM-TV.

Irv Miller, thank you for joining us. The fact that there's a population of 5,000 people, that's a significant factor in the investigation. I think you have to add on a lot more people to that because you have to add on all the people that may be driving down the highway that could have just stopped, pulled over and took the suitcase and dumped it on the side. Shasta and Dillon Gros-Nee case in Coeur d'Alene Idaho which is if you look down on it from above which I have it's completely green you can't even see the home where Shasta and Dillon were were kidnapped where they were kidnapped because the perp was driving by on it very busy interstate and happened to look through and see Shasta and the above ground pool. It was not a local.

It was a very small area, rural, but it was near that thoroughfare, just like this Irv Miller. And I don't think that's by chance. So if I had to make a guess, my guess would be it's not a local. It's somebody driving down the highway and looking for some nice deserted spot to dump their suitcase off and continue on their journey. That would be how I would look at this. I mean, and another thing, Madisonville

is about four and a half square miles. It's not big. It's not big at all. So everybody in Madisonville knows everybody else. You'd have to know that a little five-year-old girl had suddenly gone missing, at least from school or pre-k. Guys, we're talking about a five-year-old little girl, we believe she's five, stuffed in a suitcase and thrown out

into a pasture. William Johnson joining us, KAGS. Was the suitcase thrown or was it buried? From what we understand, it seems like it was thrown. And so that's what made this story just really interesting, at least from a journalist perspective, because you don't often come across a story, at least with missing persons cases, you're usually looking for someone actually who has gone missing. You rarely find a case where you find a remain to someone and you just don't know how to respond after that. And from there, it just becomes about picking up pieces and puzzling it all together. Guys, we also know that Madisonville, Texas is about 100 miles north of Houston. Would someone drive all the way from Houston to dump this suitcase with a little girl in it?

I mean, to you, Dr. Carla Manley, joining us, clinical psychologist and author of homicides, very often you find a killer dispose of a body, dispose of evidence, commit any nefarious activity in a location with which they are comfortable. instance, Scott Peterson. He didn't drive five hours away to dump Lacey's body. He went to his fishing hole. And that is where he dumped Lacey and his unborn son, Connor. He was familiar with it. He felt comfortable there. He knew his way around. Let's think. Okay, here's another example. We all remember the case of Vanessa. Vanessa Gim, the beautiful young soldier at Fort Hood right there in Texas. Where did her killer dispose of her? Where he was familiar with the area, not too far from Fort Hood. He dismembered her and tried to burn her body and hide her body in a place with which he was familiar. I mean, you know, think about it, Dr. Carla. If you want to get rid of evidence, where do you go? Somewhere you think is obscure. So, while this person, we keep thinking the killer, the person that disposed of this little girl's body could have been from anywhere, that person knew about Madisonville, Texas.

So they've got to have some connection with it. Absolutely. It could be that because we are certainly creatures of habit. And we do tend to, when we're familiar with our environment, we tend to think it's safer, more secure, and it's more accessible. If it were a passerby, somebody traveling through, that indicates a different scenario altogether where somebody may have just been, they killed their daughter, killed the child, was on a journey and disposed of it like trash as they went on to their next destination. Could be either case. Or it could be a complete stranger that took her and raped her and threw her there. Although

there would have been a missing persons report like William Johnson, K-A-G-S, pointed out and there wasn't one. Absolutely. In either case, it's chilling and heartbreaking. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, for those of you just joining us, a guy cutting the grass finds a horrible, makes a horrible discovery. Out in the middle of a pasture, he finds a suitcase with a dead little girl inside. You know, another danger right there, and I'm going to go back to Irv Miller on this very quickly. We'll never forget that Mr. Ray Kronk found the remains of Kelly, the daughter of top mom Casey Anthony, bagged up and thrown out in a swampy area about 10 houses down from the Anthony home. He came under suspicion because he found the body.

He called multiple times to police to come look at what he had found. And then he came under suspicion. He was there, by the way, rightfully. He that was part of his job that he was in that location and he happened to see this bag and then of course he became a target everyone's suggesting he was the killer and that was a line of suggestion by the defense at the trial so this guy out cutting his grass he has to be on the ready irv miller before he gets blamed. Oh, no question about it. And if I could throw out one other example for you that's typical over the years,

and that's people dumping bodies in rivers and hoping the current of the river will take the body far away from where the body was placed in the river so it aids in their escape. And obviously the person who finds the body is the first suspect that has to be checked out. And I'm sure that's the very first thing that the local authorities did to see if there was any connection. Probably put the guy on a polygraph, took DNA samples, questioned him to try to clear him or to try to continue on with the investigation, considering him as a suspect. Can you imagine the shock this guy endured? Probably still has nightmares about it. to clear him or to try to continue on with the investigation considering him as a suspect. Can you imagine the shock this guy endured? Probably still has nightmares about it. Finding this suitcase, opening it up and finding a little girl folded over inside.

Guys, take a listen to our cut five, our friends at KPNX. Investigators say the little girl's remains had been there for a few months before being discovered. They're now hoping new composite sketches will help identify her. In this pasture just off I-45 near Madisonville, Texas is where they found her. The skeletal remains of a little girl, her pink dress and blankets, all dumped on the side of the road like trash. She was found inside some garbage bags that had been placed inside of a zippered suitcase. of the road like trash. Ashley Rodriguez is a forensic case manager for the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. You know, I find every, every bit of information is a clue. Joining me right now Dorian Bond

very well-known private detective owner of Bond investigations also in Texas you can find him at Bond investigations.com Dorian thank you for being with us I find it probative it proves something to me, that this little girl was wrapped in several garbage bags, then put into a suitcase, and then of course thrown out in the middle of this pasture. Number one, the garbage bags are a great purveyor of fingerprints. They really can hold a print. That's been my experience getting prints off garbage bags. And it tells me something else. If you'll remember, Kelly Anthony was wrapped up in garbage bags, but also disposed of with her favorite blanket. This little girl had on a diapy and a little pink dress and was wrapped up in

garbage bags and then put into the suitcase. What does that tell you? That tells me that probably a person that has never done this before. They don't understand forensics. They don't understand exactly how the police work. To Dr. Tim Gallagher joining us, renowned medical examiner for the state of Florida, lecturer, University of Florida Medical School in Forensic Medicine, founder and host of the International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference. Dr. Gallagher, it's a real honor to have you with us today. What would be your procedures at the medical examiner's office when you get this suitcase inside, you see garbage bags, inside that is the little girl? This is a very good question and it does happen more than is reported. Generally,

when we get something like that, we bring in the entire suitcase with everything intact and we go through it layer by layer, meaning that we remove the lid. Before we remove the lid, we try to find a trace evidence. We may look for fingerprints. We may look for hair samples, plant samples, et cetera, on the outside of the suitcase. And then as we open it, as we go through the layer and layer of garbage bags, you know, we are saving

everything and we are submitting all of that for DNA evidence, for trace evidence, fingerprint evidence. And it's a very slow procedure. And it's a very careful and exacting one because we don't want to lose anything. We don't want to contaminate anything. So after we are done with the surrounding garbage bags or plastic or anything like that, then it's time to examine the exterior of the body and see if there are any injuries, if there are any types of devices on the body, and then we'll do the internal examination to find out the exact cause of death. Wow, that was a lot of information, Dr. Gallagher. We know that the bag was a black fabric roller board like so many of us carry not the hard type of luggage but flexible again that is a fantastic surface to get fiber evidence hair evidence touch DNA dr. Tim Gallag, medical examiner joining us out of Florida. How do you go about

preserving a rollerboard suitcase? Kind of looks like a backpack on wheels, you know, with the expandable handle that you can pull it through the airport. That's what it looks like. How do you go about preserving that evidence? And then to Dorian Bond and Irvin Miller, how can we also track the make and model, so to speak, of the suitcase? But first to you, Dr. Gallagher. Well, that's going to be very important to do. The first thing is to remember to transport it, you know, without contaminating any of the things on the outside. So the person who's doing the examination would have to be in a hazmat suit or a very protective suit. And then the other thing is it has to be taken to a special drying room where a lot of the moisture, you know, is removed from it.

And then from there, you can start processing. You can start going over, looking for, as we were talking about before, touch DNA evidence, fingerprints, and other trace evidence there. So the important thing is not to contaminate it and to get it dried and into a state where they can start doing the examination. Wow, that's a very elaborate process. You know, I want to talk about how that suitcase itself can be traced. Irv Miller where it was sold, what part of the country, not just where it was sold, what store, but what part of the country in which it was sold. A lot can be learned from that suitcase. I hope they're doing it.

I think it depends on the type of suitcase it is. Is it the one that's in general distribution throughout the country? Is it something that perhaps is sold by Amazon, which could go to anywhere in the country? They're looking for that point of sale, of where the potential retail store was that could have sold this suitcase to somebody, that could have put it into the hands of the person that eventually used it to transport this child in. What about it, Dorian Bond? Yeah, tracking that suitcase, like you said, is going to be very important.

I've kind of done this before when some items have been included in the evidence and contacting the manufacturer to see who they distributed to. When it's distributed to a Walmart, you can narrow it down by the style sometimes the colors and if it's a small store at the local regional store that's that's the best that you can track it down to then you can see where you can track the sales who purchased them they have a suspect let's say the suspect is a truck driver or something like that, they would go to that truck driver's log to see if he was in that certain area when that certain suitcase was purchased. In the midst of all this, a very unusual clue emerges.

Take a listen to our cut 11 KPNX. The skeletal remains of a little girl, her pink dress and blankets, all found dumped in a pasture on the side of a Texas highway. Most likely, the person responsible for placing the remains of the young child on the side of the road, they are not from our area. Chuck Flieger with the amber alert network has been digging into the case the pollen analysis has indicated at least a tie uh to the southwestern united states particularly the southeastern part of arizona or the northern or northern mexico he says someone know something. Guys, pollen emerging as a clue to the name of this little girl, this unidentified baby Jane Doe stuffed in a suitcase and found in a very small town, Madisonville, Texas. Take a listen now to our friend Mike Gonzalez. While she was found in Texas, a closer look at the pollen grains on both her remains and the suitcase suggests she was from somewhere in the southwest United States or just below that region. It's even more likely she was from southeast Arizona.

DNA tests show she could have been Caucasian. How in the world are we going to go about figuring out this case? Figuring out who this is and why this happened, how this happened. Leaving us with more clues than answers as investigators continue to try and figure out who this little girl is. To Daphne Young joining us, National Chief Communications Officer at ChildHelp.org. Daphne, I've seen cases cracked on even more unusual clues than this. But don't you agree that, for instance, soil samples found on a child's shoes, bugs even found on their body and the extent of maturation of those insects, much like pollen, twigs, foliage found at the scene, in the suitcase, in the trash bag, on the child, are emerging as very, very solid clues, Daphne.

Absolutely. Nature is on the side of the victim in this case because that is evidence that can be imperceptible to the human eye. Most people don't even think about it. We heard earlier that this is not an experienced criminal. Pollen grains can get into clothing, bags, shoes, under fingernails. At ASU, I checked into it and researchers are doing geocomputation to identify. Hold on, hold on. Geocomputation. Explain.

So that's where they try to identify the footprints of the pollen. There's apparently a mathematical model where you could determine where a certain plant blooms, its regional bearings, all of this. So we're located in Arizona where there is potential that this pollen comes from. This is Wyatt Earp country, Tombstone, Bisbee, the remote Chiricahua Mountains. There's a huge, moving into Mexico, there's a huge swath of space in Southeast Arizona. But it is fascinating that this information

can be a clue on the side of this little child to say she was here. Someone has to know her. To you, Dr. Tim Gallagher, how does it work? You find pollen on what, the clothing, the hair? And then how do you match that pollen to somewhere else? Here we're thinking parts of California, Arizona, New Mexico, but most likely the bottom right hand area of Arizona on the New Mexico border. That's where we're thinking, Arizona. How do you do that? And how do you as a

medical examiner say, oh, there's pollen, I'm going to collect it? Well, if the person was laying outside for any length of time pollen will naturally settle on them you know so if you were able to determine this person was outside for any length of time you would certainly collect for pollen now how pollen works is that each specific plant has its own specific pollen it's as though the it's the it's as though it's the fingerprint of the plant. So no two pieces of pollen are the same from different types of plants. So horticulturists have cataloged each and every type of pollen that they're aware of. So you would look at the pollen under the microscope,

and you would see the structure of that pollen. And then you would reference it through the horticultural atlas and find out you know what plant this is from and then determine what part of the country that plant is native in and then you will be able to determine the area of search as these people apparently did the southwest part of the United States. So just based on the type of pollen, the microscopic structure of it, and then referencing it against the catalog, that'll give you the approximate location for the native area where that pollen may have came from. And how do you collect it? Off the clothing or the hair? There's several ways you can do that. You can use

an adhesive based plastic or you can use a vacuum vacuum type system either one of them is just as effective but there are just several different ways i did was involved in one case where a honeybee was actually uh in the person's clothing and we were able to get the pollen from the legs of the honeybee in that particular case you You know, so you'd be surprised. You have to go in with an open mind. You can find it, as the other person said, anywhere, anywhere on the body. That is amazing to me. And I don't understand how you can collect it with an adhesive such as tape or a vacuum

without destroying it. Doctor? Well, pollen is released into the atmosphere by the plant and it could travel several miles and bump over several things. The structures are of the pollen. The microscopic individual pollen grains are almost indestructible. I mean, there's not really a whole lot you can do to them outside of burn them that would destroy them. So they are very, very robust and very easy to collect. I think of it as like baby powder. I mean, is it that substantial or is it even more fine than baby powder?

Well, generally you find them in clumps, you know, so they would either be a very brilliant green color or a very bright yellow color. So that helps then of course you would go over the clothing with a very high powered not microscope but sometimes a magnifying glass and with high lighting different types of lighting and that will illuminate you know different types of material one of those materials being pollen what light would that be that illuminates pollen there are different wavelengths of light that you can use. And of course, each pollen will have a slightly different wavelength.

But we have machines that go through a series of wavelengths. And one of them, it'll definitely hit on one of them that will reflect back a positivity for pollen. Dr. Gallagher, that is amazing and your depth of knowledge. I mean, that's amazing to me. We now know that a DNA profile has been done for the little girl. Take a listen to our cut seven, our friends at KPNX. While her remains were dumped in Texas, pollen found on her belongings point to her being from somewhere further west. to our cut seven, our friends at KPNX. While her remains were dumped in Texas, pollen found on her belongings point to her being from somewhere further west. She was either from Arizona

or spent some time in Arizona prior to her death. While it's still unclear what led to the little girl's death, Rodriguez is hoping the pollen and pictures are the first steps in unraveling the mystery of who she is and what happened to her. We really want to be able to help to give her her name back and find some justice for her. The agency does now have a DNA profile for the little girl. It's being run through national databases.

If you have any information on who this little girl is, you're asked to call the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Back to Daphne Young, our special guest joining us. She's the National Chief Communications Officer with Childhelp.org who helps thousands and thousands of children every year. It's amazing. Daphne, it sounds to me that just running this child's DNA through the database, that's not going to cut it because someone in her immediate family would have to have their DNA in the system, like a perp, for instance, or a government employee that had to give DNA.

An ancestral DNA chart, tree, must be done to find out who the parents are of this little girl. An ancestral, let me give a good example to make sense. Think about the Golden State killer, Joseph D'Angelo. We had DNA, but couldn't find him in the system. So DNA experts built out an ancestral DNA family tree. They had to go all the way back to, I think it was the 1800s, and follow the great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather of connected to this DNA down to the next set, the next set, the next set, and then find out who connected to the most recent DNA was in the area

and that it wasn't like a three-year-old little boy or a 90-year-old woman had to be someone that fit with a killer slash rapist. And they got Joseph D'Angelo, bam, just like that. And you know what he said when he was arrested? Oh, wait, wait, wait, I've got a roast in the oven. Yeah, he's convicted. That's building an ancestral family tree. Is that being done? I think it's so important because as the expert said before, I don't think we're looking for career criminals. The psychology of that child wrapped and the blankets and the personal effects with this little girl seem to indicate this is a intimate caregiver, a parent, somebody who is connected to the child. We know from the psychology of abusers that if you are close to someone,

even when you've done the most horrific thing to them, you create almost like a makeshift burial or cover their face or eyes. You don't want that little soul looking back at you. And so I definitely think we're looking for someone in the family. And to your point, if that's not a career criminal, then we definitely need to find out who gave birth to this little child and who was connected to this family. Absolutely. And statistics definitely show the most likely perp is someone related to or connected to this child. And let's remember, wherever the mom and dad are, they haven't reported her missing.

Are they the perps? I mean, we have to look at the harsh facts. In addition to the heartbreaking nature of a five-year-old little girl, dead, wrapped in blankets and garbage bags, put in a roller board and thrown out in a pasture. This little child had some sort of an ailment. Take a listen to our Cut 8, our friends at 12 News. Investigators are releasing a picture of a feeding tube that was found on that little girl's body. The skeletal remains of a little girl, her pink dress and blankets, all dumped on the side of the road like trash.

Now, this picture of the little girl's feeding tube is being released publicly for the first time as investigators in Texas try to figure out the girl's death. Madison Sheriff Travis Neely was at the scene. It was a weekend. I think it was a Saturday. I was at home doing odds and ends. At home doing odds and ends when the sheriff, Sheriff Neely, is called out to this pasture. Significantly, this child had a feeding tube. The most vulnerable and helpless. A little, taut, five-year-old girl with a feeding tube, now dead. Take a listen to more from our friends at 12 News.

The call came in about skeletal remains in a pasture off a highway on Interstate 45 between Dallas and Houston. Experts say the girl, who was between the ages of two and six, likely suffered from a condition called micronathia, affecting her ability to eat on her own, and she needed lifelong medical attention. Forensic artists from the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children used a CT scan of the girl's skull to create these images of what she may have looked like to help jog someone's memory. A CAT scan on this child's head to create a composite.

I have personally commandeered composites of unidentified murder victims. We did not have use of a CAT scan. That is amazing. But now we know this little girl found with a feeding tube. I want to circle back Dorian Bond, Irv Miller with the idea of whether a feeding tube or medical paraphernalia can be tracked with some sort of a, for lack of a better phrase, a VIN number on it, like on a pacemaker or an AFib device. They have numbers on them and you can track to whom that particular device was given. But I want to find out about micronathia. What is that, Dr. Gallagher? Micronathia is a developmental delay in the formation of the jaw. So generally it's a very, very small jaw, maybe incapable of chewing.

But typically what causes it is sometimes it's an injury to that area, you know, at a very young age. Or there are some genetic diseases that have micronathia or poorly developed jaw, you know, as part of their genetic makeup. It could be a genetic problem, much like Down syndrome is a genetic problem. There are certain other diseases and conditions that have that feature to them, micronathia. It could also mean that instead of an injury or developmental problem, the child could have been exposed to a toxin at a very early age or even a caustic agent such as Drano bleach, something in that area, you know, that would cause that poorly developed jaw, you know, to express itself. Micronathia. Is that what you're saying, Dr. Gallagher? Right. Yeah. Micronathia. Micro meaning small. Nathia meaning jaw. So basically small jaw. But it's because of a developmental problem with it that that is what this child is experiencing

and most likely why they needed the gastric tube or G-tube or feeding tube well it seems to me if her ailment is simply a malformed lower jaw couldn't that be fixed with reconstructive surgery uh well it could be a a one of it could be one of the problems she has in a larger genetic um problem that she has in a larger genetic disease there are certain diseases called Patou syndrome or Edwards syndrome that there's many many other problems they have including the jaw so just fixing the jaw isn't necessarily going to fix the problem so reconstructing the jaw no not at somebody who's that age because they're still growing you know so it would be

surgery upon surgery upon surgery you know as they get older you know into their teenage years into their adult years so it would be um it would be serial surgeries to get that corrected um in the right way what more do we know about the evidence as it relates to this tiny girl's micro naphthia take a listen to our friends KTRK. Forensic testing shows the girl was between the ages of two and five. Her body underdeveloped and she suffered from a serious medical condition. Inside of the bones in the container was a peg tube, which is a medical tube that is inserted medically through the ribs for feeding in the stomach to feed liquids with.

The sheriff says that feeding tube is the biggest lead right now. The stock number was still on it. Investigators tracked down the company who made it to see what hospital it was sent to. Hopefully, hospital records will reveal who the little girl was and who left her here. I find it really hard to believe, Daphne Young, that we've got the age, an approximate age, a rollerboard, her clothing, a blanket, and a feeding tube that was inserted through her ribs with a stock number on it, and we can't identify this child? It's downright bizarre because she was in a health care system for a spell. Doctors, nurses, techs, people who clean the rooms. She had a very visual disability that would have been made her easy to remember. She was tiny and to describe such a petite little girl, she may have had issues of failure to thrive that medical professionals would be paying attention to because the body may be smaller.

She may be even older but had trouble eating, and the nutrition piece of this may have been difficult. And also, we know that children with disabilities are four times more likely to be abused, and 33% of those have medical conditions. So often, folks working in hospitals have been properly trained or also being very careful about assuring the bonding with an infant that has special needs during those early pregnancy times where they're just trying to make sure that things are copacetic with the mother and the father and the child in these circumstances. So it felt like there should have been so many eyes. And I'm just wondering why no one is coming forward. Irv Miller joining us, renowned criminal defense attorney. You've handled a lot of cases, Irv. What happens? Do parents just get tired of taking care of a sick child and they just kill it? You know, as a former prosecutor like you and then a criminal defense attorney that I'm doing now, I think it's fair to say that debt is one of the possible causes in this particular case. Don't forget that the cause of death was undetermined

by the medical examiner in this case. We don't know that the child died as a result of foul play or of natural causes. And I have to tell you, this thing with the illness and the feeding tube tells me one thing, that she was not a local child, because I guarantee you that the law enforcement authorities checked hospitals within, I would say, several hundred miles of this town of Madisonville to see if they had any patient care with these particular things, the disease itself and the insertion of a feeding tube. I guarantee you that that was done, and nothing apparently has come up in all these years that would lead them to believe that they were able to find somebody

based upon a local ill child that they would now be able to identify. Let me throw a legal phrase at you, Dorian Bond. Dorian Bond, joining us from bondinvestigations.com. You just heard something Irv Miller say, and here's the legal term. Natural causes, my rear end. If this child had died of natural causes, don't you know, they would have taken her to the hospital to try to save her life, given her a burial. That's total BS.

Sorry, Irv Miller. This child did not die of natural causes. And they thought, oh, oh, that's just like top mom Casey Anthony going, oh, yeah, Kelly drowned in the pool. So what? You had your dad or you put her in a garbage bag and throw her in a swamp? That's a lie. This child did not die of natural causes yeah natural causes is kind of uh it's uh you can just add a lot of a lot of things to it

natural causes if you fell off of a building it's a natural cause but of course blunt force trauma but it could be natural causes because they had a heart attack when they stand on the edge of a building or something you never know so that's i's, I mean, I think once you wrap a child up in a garbage bag, put it in a suitcase and put it in a field and things like that, we want to understand what happened before it got to that point. And the medical issues and the feeding tube, things like that, that's a good place to start an investigation. Oh, man, you are so right, Dorian Bond. And Dr. Carla Manley, I just think about this little child, this little five-year-old girl who's already struggling with a malformed jaw in life.

She can't eat properly, and now she's dead. Why do parents pick on, torture, and abuse the child that is disabled? It's such a good question, Nancy, and this is not meant in any way to say it's appropriate to ever abuse a child. Children who have disabilities, child abuse neglect is reported to be 3% to 10% higher in that population. And I believe that there are several reasons. One, the child, especially child with

disabilities, can't report what is happening. They often are so compromised they can't report it. Second, we often see in abused children, and I worked in juvenile probation for several years, that they are not able they can't afford it. Second, we often see in abused children, and I worked in juvenile probation for several years, the children are so afraid that even if they are able to explain what's going on for them,

they're afraid of losing that primary caregiver. When we look at the parents, the parents are often so compromised in mental health ways. And children who have disabilities, depending upon the nature of the disabilities, often so compromised in mental health ways. And children who have disabilities, depending upon the nature of the disabilities, it can be extremely tiring and taxing. And the parents often do not have the resources and the support they need to get stable. And in some cases, what they do is to harm the child, react, take their frustration out on the child, and the child ends up dead like this poor little thing. Dr. Carla Manley, not what I wanted to hear, but true.

If you know or think you know anything about this poor little girl, please call 936-348-2755. Repeat, 936-348-2755. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.