Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Can psychic detectives really solve crimes?

Episode Date: January 1, 2018

You'll never see a psychic detective testify in a criminal case, but many investigators have used their special skills to find clues and even solve criminal mysteries. Nancy Grace explores their stories in this New Years Day Crime Stories show. Her guests in include psychic detectives Noreen Renier, Gale St. John, and Allison DuBois. Forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan joins the discussion to add some healthy skepticism. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. Welcome to a special New Year's Day edition of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We start 2018 by looking at psychic detectives who help solve crimes. Believe them or not, their stories are fascinating. I never once introduced a psychic into court. Because, A, it's not hard evidence. B, the defense would cross-examine those witnesses to H-E-double-L and back. So in my world as a felony prosecutor, if I can't see it, touch it, smell it, hear it, it doesn't exist in the world of hard evidence. And my job was to put

hard evidence in front of a jury to prove somebody needed to go to jail for the rest of their life or worse. But then everything changed. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. What do you think about psychics and specifically about psychic detectives? Because today we have an all-star lineup of some of the most well-known psychics in the world to talk about not just does another realm exist, but what they have done to help solve criminal cases. With me, Noreen Renner, Gail St. John, Alison Dubois, and of course, death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan, forensic expert to weigh in on the, let's just say the world of here and now, and Alan Duke, Jackie Howard, we're all here.

And again, thank you for being with us. I'll tell you, Joe Scott Morgan, since you and I deal in harsh reality and cold, hard facts, before I get to our ladies, Joe Scott, come on. If I tried to bring a psychic into court, I would be laughed down the courthouse hallway, right out the front door, and I could be looking for a job. I don't know. Door to door vacuum cleaner salesperson, I guess. I don't know what I would be doing with that law degree because there would be enough skeptics to ruin a verdict. And I could never risk that. Yeah, Nancy. I'm a forensic scientist and I concur with much of what you had said relative to being able to not just qualify but quantify those things that we see before us in the field and in the laboratory, that sort of thing.

And it's very hard to get that into court. Exactly. But I'll tell you what changed my mind. This is when it all changed for me I'd been out of the court for courtroom for a year or two and I got drafted by the Larry King staff and to be not just a guest but to be Larry's regular guest host for about five years and it was an honor and a privilege to do that and I remember one time Larry had to go somewhere. He was out in California and I was in New York. He had to go somewhere out of town. He couldn't

tape that day. He couldn't go live. We went live that night on psychic detectives. And I got to tell you, I'm like, Oh, okay, whatever. I'll do it. I'll do it. So I started preparing for the show. You know, I would do hours and hours of preparation and listen to this Joe Scott Morgan, Mr. Nonbeliever. I started reading about a Burbank woman who had never had a psychic vision in her life. And she allegedly has a psychic vision. And I'm putting that in quotas, that leads detectives to the body of a murder victim. Now, this is what went down. This woman, Etta Louise Smith, out of the blue, says that she had a vision about a body out in the middle of like a canyon, a rural area. And I think, as I recall, that she saw white.

Okay. Two days. She keeps having the vision, and it's so overwhelming. She gets members of her family to go with her and they go driving around Joe Scott they find the body of a beautiful young nurse it was two days after the nurse's very highly publicized disappearance as I recall it the nurse was coming home from work one evening. You know, they have crazy shifts at a hospital. She's at a red light and a bunch of guys that she didn't know drove up beside her.

And they kidnapped her and ended up beating her and dumping her body in a rural area above Lakeview Terrace. Okay. About 45 minutes after she finds the body with her family members, they call police and the police are there. Now, she is there with two of her children and a niece. And they find the body and they lead police to the location in Lopez Canyon. Out in the middle of a canyon, Joe Scott, she finds the body. Well, the police get there, and guess what they do?

They arrest her. After hours and hours of interrogation, they arrest Etta Smith. Nancy, let's listen to what Etta Smith told Oprah Winfrey about how she followed her psychic instincts and got arrested for it. Well, what really brought it about was I was listening to a news broadcast on a radio and the night before a girlfriend had called me on the phone and asked me if I had heard about a nurse who had been kidnapped. You felt what? Well, what really brought it about was I was listening to a news broadcast on a radio and the night before a girlfriend had called me on the phone and asked me

if I had heard about a nurse who had been kidnapped and was missing in our area and I said no I hadn't heard about it so that day at work the following day at work I listened to the radio and they said that they had found the lady's vehicle on a dead end street and that they were making a house to house search for her and as soon as they said house to house search it was as if I heard someone speaking to me said she's not in a house and as soon as they said house to house search, it was as if I heard someone speaking to me, said she's not in a house. And as soon as that thought registered, I saw exactly where she was. It was like there was a picture in front of me. Whoa.

I didn't know the name of the street, but I knew the area. I knew how to get there. And I just knew. So what did you do? Call police? Well, this was about 3 o'clock in the afternoon. I was at work. I'd get off work at 3.30,

and I'm arguing with myself all the way home because when I get to a certain intersection, I either turn right to go home or I can turn left, and I'll be right in front of the police department. So I'm saying, I should stop, and I'm saying, no, I should go home. Well, when I got to that intersection, I said, let them think I'm nuts. I have to stop.

And it's exactly what I did. I talked to a homicide investigator, told him exactly the area. I said, I knew that it's on the right-hand side going up this canyon road and that there was a dirt path going towards this person and with the hill behind her. He said they had not checked that area, but that they would. And I said, well, you know, I have a feeling I will also. Inside, I wanted to be wrong. But I also felt that if I didn't check, I'd never know the truth.

I'd never know if they checked, or I'd never know for sure whether I was right or wrong, and I wanted to be wrong. I was hoping I was really wrong. So you went there yourself, or you went there with them? No, by i didn't go with them i went home i told my children why i was late coming home and they wanted to go with me i told them i was going and uh i feel bad about that now because at the time i wasn't thinking properly i wouldn't have taken the children out to look for someone. But as he was saying, when you get in an area- How old were your children?

Nine, ten. I took two children with me, plus a niece who was 21 at the time. And you found the body? Ultimately, yes. You found the body. And you were saying what Charles was saying, that what? When you get close, because I knew when we got in the canyon, I could feel the terror. I could feel vibrations of something that wasn't normal. I felt scared myself. You know, I could feel it. Just like he sensed Jennifer. You sensed her. You said you felt her.

Absolutely. That is amazing. That is amazing. Police later arrested you because? Well, they said I knew too much about it not to have been involved because I had described in detail where she was, up this canyon road, on the side, on the right side, with a dirt path going to her and a hill behind her. I said I had to have been there to have known that. So long story short, Jo Scott, she didn't take kindly, as you can imagine, getting arrested after hours and hours of interrogation. She sued LAPD. And she got a huge settlement from LAPD. Now, when I read this story, and I read several more like it,

and I did the Larry King show that night, and I was questioning the cops that were on the case. Cops, Joe Scott, police officers. And they're like, we don't understand it, but it happened. And Joe Scott, we did several shows like that and we would have three or four cases on each show. And I got the opportunity to talk to the psychics, which I had never done before, to question the police officers, some of the victims' families. And I walked away going, okay, this does not make sense in my head. But it happened. It's just like the telephone and the TV and the radio and the cell phone. I don't know how it happens.

But I know that it does happen. I know when I flick the light switch, the light comes on. I don't have to think about, wow, how did we harness electricity? How do we get it into the room without burning the house down? I don't think about that. But I know that it happens, Joe Scott. And this happened. I think that for us in investigations, we're so pragmatic about everything. And we spend so much of our time trying to cut through what is fact and what is fiction.

We are lied to a lot, I think, in our field, trying to get to the truth. And we're biased in that sense in that we assume many times that most of the people that we're talking to are trying to deceive us in some way. Well, I hear what you're saying, and that may be true. And I'm not saying that's not true. true your point what I'm saying is if I can't understand it if it's not two plus two equals four I'm not putting in front of a jury bam end of story if I can't prove it at a crime lab or I can't see it hear it taste it touch it or smell it it's not in my world until I spoke to Etta with With me right now, three of the most well-known psychics literally in the world. Noreen Renner, Gail St. John, Alison Dubois. First to you, Alison Dubois.

So great, ladies, to have all of you. Alison, tell me how you became a psychic. When did you first have any psychic vision or experience? It started when I was really little. I mean, I was six years old and I went to the first funeral I ever attended and it was my great grandfather's. And I came home from his funeral and my mom tucked me into bed and I looked at the foot of my bed and he was standing there and he actually looked like he had no lines on his face and he looked happy and he said, tell your mom I'm not in pain anymore and I'm still with her because he had died of intestinal cancer, a very painful death. So I got out of bed and I

told my mom, grandpa's in my room, and he says to tell you he's not in pain anymore and he's still with you. And she told me to go back to bed. So it was the 70s. I didn't know what to do with kids like me at the time. So that was my first experience. You know, I'm looking at a photo of you right now. Allison Dubois at AllisonDubois.com. And I already know you, but I'm just looking at you.

And when people think of mediums or psychics, they think of some crackpot dressed in, I guess, a gypsy outfit over a fake crystal ball in a dark room. That's what they think of. If you guys look up these three ladies, Noreen, Gail, and Allison, they're beautiful. And I don't mean this as an insult. They're normal. They're regular people like you and me that have had an event in their lives that took them down the road of psychic medium. So tell me when your next vision was or your next, I don't know if I call it a vision or experience, Allison. You know, I had experiences through my whole childhood.

I guess when I was a teenager, when you get really turned up because of the hormones and all, I moved my bed from against the south wall over to the east wall. And my friend Barbara, who was spending the night that night, was like, what did you do that for? And I said, you know, that voice that I've heard my whole life told me to move the bed. And I said, so I moved the bed because it had already saved my life once before when I was 11.

And that night a truck drove through my bedroom wall, and if I hadn't moved the bed, Barbara and I would have been under the truck. So my friends always just chalked it up to, well, that's just Allison, you know? So I thought everybody could do what I did. They just didn't talk about it, like wink, wink, nod, nod. But it wasn't until I was interning in homicide to be a prosecutor that I realized that other people didn't necessarily see or hear what I was seeing and hearing. And that was news to me. Allison, Jackie Howard, my buddy here in the studio.

It's Alan Duke's counterpart. We're both holding up our arms to compare goosebumps. Okay. Also with me in addition to Allison Dubois at allisondubois.com, Noreen Renier and Gail St. John. Noreen, if it's not too intrusive, again, ladies, thank you to all three of you being with us. Noreen, when was your first, I don't know what else to call it, but psychic experience? I was all grown up and I was pretty much a skeptic. I thought all psychics told clients

they would marry a tall, dark, handsome man and they stole chickens or something of the sort. So I was very surprised when I started meditating. I didn't believe in psychic phenomena and I went almost immediately into a trance and gave a Winnebago Indian who was at the table with my girlfriend who was also skeptic, an ex-nun, information which I could hear. Hold on. I've got two skeptics and one is an ex-nun. You know, that just reminds me. Let me tell you, Noreen, when I was a Fed, before I became a felony prosecutor,

I was prosecuting some people with the Federal Trade Commission in the Consumer Protection and Antitrust Division. And it was a weight loss product, which I knew from examining and speaking to scientists had nothing in it at all. That would be a weight loss, something called GWAR, G-U-A-R. I've never had a chance to work that into a conversation since that time. But GWAR kind of expands in your stomach and makes you feel full for a minute and then basically no nothing to make you lose weight then I started sifting through all the letters of complaints and I found one letter from a nun that swore she lost 40 pounds using whatever it was I don't even

remember the name of it and I took it into my boss's office. I was holding it. I'm like, we're screwed because this nun says this worked, and she used it for six months. And let me tell you something. You put this nun up on that witness stand, it's over. Okay? We've got to rethink this whole thing. You're telling me you're sitting there with an ex-nun, and what happened? Well, she was a disbeliever and everything, too.

So after the episode, we got rid of Joanne and said, do you a disbeliever and everything, too. So we, after the episode, we got rid of Joanne and said, did you believe this stuff? I said, no. She must have done something to us. So we decided to meet that night. Her husband worked late.

She was out of the convent now like 10 years and had been in the convent for about 10 years. And we started doing what the books were talking about. We would practice. So that's how it began.

And then at work, I couldn't think. I just wanted to see if it worked. And I was in PR and advertising, so I could bring clients to Hyatt Hotel and show them in case they wanted to rent a lecture hall or something. And I would rush them to lunch and say, look, I really don't believe in this, but I read if you hold a person's rings or watch and you put it to your forehead, you can. And so I'd be grabbing their watch or ring off to practice on people I didn't know, and it was working. And of course, I got

fired, I think, not a very good psychic three months later, and so that's when I went full-time, dressed like a gypsy, and started in the nightclub. I was still trying to prove that this really was real, and then science got involved, Duke University, a lot of testing at Ryan Research. And I still love testing my mind of what it can do.

And I do still a lot of work, and I'm working a lot now in South Africa of all places. Okay. I'm just taking all of this in. Gail St. John also with me in addition to Allison Dubois and Noreen Renier. Gail St. John, you and I have spoken many, many times. Although guys, on professional level, I have not consulted with Gail St. John. Okay. I'm still clinging to the fact that this may not exist, even though I know that it has actually happened. Gail St. John, I want to hear your first so-called, I don't know what else to call it unless you ladies can enlighten me,

psychic experience. Well, I vividly remember I was about four years old. My mother was outside talking to the neighbor. We're talking about the 1960s, so you can kind of picture how that is. I'm two houses down playing with the other little girl. We're just having a great time like real little kids are doing and watching our moms talk. And I look up at her house and it was on fire. And I'm at an age where, you know, comprehension isn't the greatest, but I, so I look down, I look up again and the house is on fire. Now at this point, I'm scared.

I'm running home. As I'm running back, you know, just quickly, I glance again, the house is not on fire. And I'm running up to my mom and I'm yelling, mom, mom, mom, mom. And she's trying to, you know, keep me quiet for a minute. And she shuffles me into the house. I think she said what are you hollering about fire I said I saw the house on fire I saw the neighbor's house on fire she said it's not on fire and I insisted I saw it but I know it's gone now she said you like what exactly did you see and I said it was burning there was smoke uh I saw people there and then I said then it was burning. There was smoke. I saw people there. And then I said, then it was all gone. She said, she said, you know, you need to not say these things. I'm like, I mean, I can't say these things. And my grandmother came out of the other room. She goes, we don't talk about this. This has been in our family. You don't say these things.

I was so confused at that point. I let it go. Three days later, their house burned down. And then that left me with the strangest of feelings at such a young age of like, what if somebody would have, and thank goodness nobody got hurt in the fire. They all got out. But what if? What if somebody had gotten hurt and I would have been responsible because I knew I could have warned them. And I lived with a guilt for quite some time in trying to deal with this ability. and where's that line? With me, Noreen Renier, Gail St. John, Allison Dubois, Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator

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Super Beats, thank you for being our partner today. We are speaking with three renowned so-called psychic detectives, Noreen Renier, Gail St. John, Alison Dubois. With me, death investigator Joe Scott Morgan, Alan Duke, and Jackie Howard. I want to go to Noreen Renier. Noreen, do you recall a particular case that you worked on? This case dealt with a victim that is last name Sullivan that was ultimately discovered dead. It was a missing person case, and an agent with the Montana Department of Justice, the DOJ, contacted you way back after watching you on television.

He was skeptical, he says. He met you, flew to Florida to meet you to see if you were the real deal. He says he gave you no information about the unsolved case and wanted to find out if you could possibly help find a Montana State Auditor, Walter Sullivan. Noreen, do you recall the Sullivan case out of Montana? Yes, I do. What happened? I got a phone call from them.

They had, Detective River, UB, had seen me on television and wanted to know how I worked. And I told them that usually the police, because I worked all over the United States, would send me something off the victim that wouldn't interrupt their crime, like a shoe or belt buckle or something, and they didn't want to send the evidence they had, so they flew out. And usually I do things over the phone, so I was surprised to see them with a camera,

and they videotaped the session, and they would give me no feedback. Usually on the phone, I just ask if it's a homicide or a missing person case. I don't ask for their name because the skeptics always say that we look it up and we know everything about the person. So I never know the name of the victim until I start the case. So they told me the name of the victim, and I described him to make sure I was tuned in. I think I was holding something of the victims, did a bunch on him, and they were very bad at giving me feedback. And usually I just like to know if I'm in the right zone.

Did he have the ball here, however I described him, but no feedback whatsoever. And then they gave me the projectile, the bullet that he had been shot with, and then I got all sorts of new pictures. I saw three men, and I remember my head hurting terribly. I was outside of a blue building walking towards it when these men jumped me, and they started hitting me, and the one in the head hurt me the most. There was two Mexicans, and then the third man would just... I have an artist.

I always work with an artist when we have homicide cases, so it helps the police with the elimination of suspects. So the artist was drawing the faces I was seeing. But I remember my head hurting so badly, even after I came out of my trance, I was still hurting. After describing the three men, the two Mexicans and the other older man, they just started asking me questions, and then I would respond to the questions, how he was killed, you know, why he was killed.

I saw a lot of numbers around the victim, and it turned out that he was into finance a great deal. Don't remember everything, but they were just very pleased with what I gave them. I forgot what else they wanted to know. Oh, I had to draw things for them. Oh, they wanted to know what the gun looked like. And I was trying to tell them that you had to use two hands on it, and they still couldn't understand. So I got a piece of paper and a pen and drew it.

It turned out it was like a K-9. I still don't know guns, but I drew it just like it was. So they were very happy with all the evidence. Wow. I mean, I did a lot more, but I can't remember everything. And I don't feel that I ever solved crimes. I think that I'm like a, giving them more, I'm a tool. And if they know how to use me right, and a lot of police don't,

if they know how to use me and I try to write how best I work, I'm just a tool for them to get more evidence, and that's what they bring to court. Wow, wow. Back to our skeptic, Joseph Scott Morgan, homicide investigator and professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. OK, Joe Scott, did you hear that? Oh, yeah. I heard it, Nancy. Heard it loud and clear. And for all I know, it could just be a random shot in the dark.

So you're going to have to prove it to me. And I'm not buying it. I'm not. There's too much. There's too much at risk here. There's too much at risk. Joe Scott, hold on. You know what? That's what they said the first time somebody brought up the idea of fingerprints. I'll let you chew on that for a few moments. Alison Dubois, Gail St. John, Noreen Renier with us.

Alison Dubois, you also have worked on particular criminal cases. Let's talk about Jackie Hartman. And remember, everybody, Allison Dubois actually worked at the Maricopa County District Attorney's Office in Arizona. In fact, one of her tasks was organizing crime scene photos. I want to talk to you about a particular case, Jackie Hartman, a 19-year-old. What do you recall about that case, Alison Dubois? Well, I was taken to the last place she was seen, which was kind of like a gas station convenience store. And the first thing that I picked up was that she went willingly. So then the next piece of information that I wrote down was date rate gone wrong. She'd been missing about two weeks at this point. I said, you can hear helicopters overhead where her body is. So they're looking in the right area. I said, there's a small barbecue nearby where you have

like a cookout. Her body was rolled down a hill outside the city limits. I said,'s a small barbecue nearby where you have like a cookout. Her body was rolled down a hill outside the city limits. I said the cell phone tower would be how they find her. And then I let them know that they would find her body in two weeks, which they did find her body in exactly two weeks. Allison Dubois is referring to the case of Jackie Hartman, a 19-year-old nursing student. Jackie's body was found in 2007. Within hours of the time, Dubois said it would be found. date on the night of her disappearance was ultimately convicted of killing the young girl,

Jackie Hartman, 19-year-old nursing student. Now, very interesting that she tells police that this was, that the victim, Jackie, went with her killer willingly, that it was a date rape to find the victim through cell phone records specifically that she would be found in two weeks. She was found 13 days and 20 something hours from the day the moment that Allison spoke with police. I mean, it just goes on and on and on. the moment that Allison spoke with police. I mean, it just goes on and on and on. Now, what do you have to say to your critics, Allison? You know, half of my friends are cops and county attorneys, prosecutors, so I'm critical of myself. So I know what information they need that can actually be helpful and what's just fluff that some psychics give

and they get pulled into the emotional state of the victim. I try to go through the killer myself instead of the victim. But for people who don't believe, it really doesn't change my life if they don't believe. At the end of the day, we all die and everybody finds out that there's life after death and that what we're doing to help the police when they hit a wall, we're just a last resort. We don't want to be their first choice of weapon. It's a lot of work for us and it takes an emotional toll on us. I've never charged to work a case because I've been so blessed in life. It's a lot of work for us and it takes an emotional toll on us. I've never charged to work a case because I've been so blessed in life. It's just kind of how

I've given back, but that's just personally how I've approached it. So, you know, as far as working cases, there was no monetary gain. And I guess one could say, well, you got a television show about you because of it and you did well. And I would argue that, well, you got a television show about you because of it, and you did well. And I would argue that, well, then you're just proving that I'm a psychic, because then I knew I was going to become rich off of working cases, you know. So they can't have it both ways. And usually skeptics like to argue it so that no matter what we say or what we do, it's never going to be enough evidence or impressive enough.

And so for those people, I don't really, I don't bother. You know, many people say that murder made Alison Dubois famous. Their well-known series, Medium, starring Patricia Arquette, playing a fictional Dubois. Well, Patricia Arquette solved a murder a week for seven seasons. I don't think that any of your work is that regular. No. And I don't know if you ever saw a dime off that, because TV series, people can use your likeness or the idea of you. Believe me, I know.

And I never know about it until somebody tells me about it, that they've seen it on TV. Nancy, I've got a clip I can play from the television show, The Medium. In fact, this is from the premiere episode. We just got a call. Apparently he's struck again. He takes their hearts, carves it right out of their chest. Doesn't have anything to do with sex. It's biblical. All I know is that they called an ambulance for Mr. Push sometime after three this morning.

You came to visit me in my bedroom. It was around 3.30 in the morning. I thought that I was dreaming. Alice, they're related. You must have died for a minute or two. What's related? The murders, the victims, the ones he chooses. It's not random. I'm going now to Gail St. John. Gail St. John, a renowned psychic as well, along with Noreen Renier and Alison Dubois. Hold on, Joe Scott Morgan, you're chomping at the bit.

All right, weigh in, Joe Scott. Try not to be so negative because I'm getting some kind of a, I'm getting a vibration, I think, from you. It's not a good one. Oh, wow. Are you having a vision right now, Nancy? Is that what's going on? My vibes are traveling your way. Yeah, I got to tell you, you know, you mentioned fingerprints a moment ago.

Somebody said, hey, you know, we can't use these. You're right. You can't use them, because it can't be quantified, and it can't be proved. You have to be able to replicate this over and over and over using the same test. And that's how we validate things in forensic science and in science in general. You know that as a former prosecutor. As a former prosecutor, I know what I need to do to prove a case, but my mind is open. I firmly believe that there is a lot more in the world of criminal investigation than I know, a lot more in the world than I know. In fact, what I don't know could fill up a million libraries compared to what I do know about this world. I'm pretty sure. Now, I want to speak with

Gail St. John, who is a renowned psychic, and she was actually drawn to the spot where little Kelly Anthony's body was found months before the body was found and even has video to prove it. She came forward to say she was not surprised Kelly was found in the woods off Suburban Drive, that she had been in that area and drawn to that area months before. Gail St. John and her search team, the so-called The Body Hunters, went to Orlando to search for Kelly, and on their very first day, out of nowhere, she leads them on a blind drive to this spot.

Okay, Gail St. John, can you even explain what's going on in your mind when you have this sort of experience? You know, I'm not sure that there's anything in a sense that you could say is totally going on, except for it's almost your sort of trance-like, semi-trance. You're hearing, you're feeling things from the other side, as well as, obviously, if you're driving, you have to be very conscious and aware of your driving. But it's something I've always done is that blind drive. I get to an area and I go to where the person was last seen. And then I pick up on what happened. How do I get to their body?

And I just allow myself to drive where the feeling gets stronger. If you've ever played that hot and cold game when you were a kid. Yes. That's what it feels like. Really? I'm going left, left. Nope, nope, not losing the feeling, losing the feeling. Go the other direction. Yep, yep. It's getting stronger going this way. And you follow. Yeah. What can you tell me about Stephen Hoff? Stephen Hoff was a person that they suspected he had left suicide and had left a note. They had had searchers out several times looking for him. He'd been missing around eight weeks at the time that our team was called out. Now, this was a team case.

So you have to tread lightly on this because you're going out as a canine handler. Called out by police. Sort of a conflict of interest with the two. They don't see the psychic and they don't know that I'm psychic. They don't have any information on this. They're calling us out to do a search. They don't even know if he's in this area. And it's a very large preserve area.

And we get out there on that case. I run my canine. I got some information off of my canine. If people don't understand, there's a lot to running a canine. You just don't turn your dog loose and go, hey, yeah. You got to understand scent theory and how it all works. He gave me some signs in an area that I was told to go over into. And I had two other backup handlers with me. And he kind of told me a story

in what he was doing. But my feelings were overriding some of this. Now, by this time, the park is getting very busy with people walking on trails. I'm thinking, okay, let's think about logics here. I'm going to turn a canine loose. We've got people walking in this area over here, and they're walking dogs. It's going to be a problem. It's going to be a problem.

So what finally happened? I turned and looked at the two girls with me and they sort of kind of knew that I did some psychic stuff, but listen, we're all about canines right there. You know, that's the bottom line. So, and I said, I'm going to put my dog up. And they said, what? I said, yeah, I'm going to put my dog up. I want to walk around on foot over here. Okay. So we put the canine up and I'm walking around and I knew, you know, I said, I got to turn this on. This has got to happen. I got to, you know, nip this in the bud right now. We got to find this guy. I just turned it on. I said, I don't know what to, you know, I'm not even going to say anything to my, my backup handlers. I just turned it on,

went with my feelings, began walking, going in different places. And they're running behind me going, Gail, what's going on? What's going, what are you doing? Slow down. I couldn't, I couldn't slow down by that point it was so strong the pull I just went and kept walking I can't hold back what happened I walked right up on his body walked right up on him

okay guys Noreen Renier, Gail St. John Allison Dubois Allison Dubois. Alison Dubois, could you tell me, you told me your first experience, but what was your most powerful psychic experience? I heard a voice say, your dad's going to die at 67 of a massive heart attack. So I sent my dad to all the heart specialists trying to intervene and save him.

And he had been a professional ballroom dancer for 50 years. He was in good shape. And he died at 67 of a massive heart attack. And I think that one was probably the most profound because it was my father. Wow. You're really hitting a nerve. I lost my dad two years ago and I just miss him so much. It's just, he was my soulmate. I miss him so much and I can only imagine what that must have been like. Noreen Renier, go ahead, Allison. I was just going to say it's an indescribable ache that never goes away, no matter how many years pass, even though you know they're there and

you know that every day you wake up's a good day because you're a day closer to seeing them again. All of that aside, it still aches. I'm sorry that you lost your dad. I am. Thanks. I still have my mom. And you know, she's 90 pounds of tiger meat. Noreen Renier, what was your most powerful psychic experience? Mine was, of course, my police work. For the first five years, all I did was homicide because I'm really bad with left and right, and I can get lost in a Kmart. So I never tried to find people.

I just told everybody I'm homicide. Well, an FBI agent's wife that knew about my work contacted me, and her brother was missing in an airplane. And at first I didn't want to do it. I kept saying, no, I don't do that. And then finally she brought me some um stuff that he had touched a wallet and a coin thing and uh i did the case and i gave longitude and latitude uh and the initials of the cities uh and they they found uh in the plane that it hadn't it was in a

plane of course and it hadn't exploded and i I remember visually seeing somebody carrying something and place it under a tree and then walking away. And then I opened my eyes and said, no, you just want him to be alive. I'm not doing this anymore. And when they found the airplane, it was they had this woman sitting under a tree like somebody had carried her there. And her brother had walked several yards away. But that was my most because I'd never had been into missing people. And it was a whole new, and I'm really good at it now. Wow. Gail St. John, you told me how you initially realized that you had this extrasensory perception.

What was your most profound, your most powerful, I guess, psychic experience or vision? I really got to say it concerned my grandmother. She was living with us at the time. And two days prior to her passing, I was told about it. And it was a semi dream state. But I was very conscious of what was going on and I think because at the time I was I was 14 years old I really fought it and it was painful and I and I didn't and I wanted to ignore it and and two days later, I held her arms and she passed away. And that was very, very powerful and painful and so many things all at the same time. With me, renowned psychics, so-called psychic detectives, Noreen Renier, Gail St. John, Allison Dubois, and skeptic Joseph Scott Morgan.

Ladies, thank you for sharing with us. You know, Joe Scott, I guess you and I, the two flat feet here, will continue putting forth hard evidence, as we call it. But it's very hard to put on blinders and try to ignore the stories that have been factually corroborated from Alison Dubois, Gail St. John, and Noreen Renier. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. As Crime Stories with Nancy Grace begins 2018, we would like to thank you for helping us grow from our first podcast barely a year ago to now being a national radio show heard on Sirius XM channel 132. And we are also one of the top rated news podcasts. Every weekday, we publish a new episode.

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