Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - 'Capitol Hill thugs should be charged with felony murder: It will be over my cold dead body these deaths are forgotten!'

Episode Date: January 12, 2021

Five people died as a result of the pro-Trump riot on Capitol Hill, including Police officer Brian Sicknick. Who were the individuals who stormed Congressional Chambers and what happens now?Joining Nancy Grace today: James Shelnutt - 27 years Atlanta Metro Area Major Case Detective, Swat officer Lawyer www.ShelnuttLawFirm.com  Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Beverly Hills, New Netflix show 'Bling Empire', www.drbethanymarshall.com  Robert Crispin - Private Investigator “Crispin Special Investigations” www.crispinsinvestigations.com  Katherine Maloney - Deputy Chief Medical Examiner, Erie County Medical Examiners Office Emily Larson - Reporter, Washington Examiner Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. In the last days, one of the worst assaults on our country has taken place. As you all know by now, the attack on our capital, one of the symbols of our country, is still playing out on a national stage. Who are these people that thought it was okay to storm our capital? Who has died in the name of America because of this assault? hospitalized during Wednesday's riots has died. They're looking at a line of police officers in front of the Capitol honoring Officer Brian Sitnik. He was a 15-year veteran of the force, and the 40-year-old died overnight from a stroke he suffered at the scene of the riots.

How dare they storm our Capitol, one of the symbols of our great country. Who are these people that seemingly have risen up out of normal everyday lives? I'm talking about law enforcement, firefighters, stay-at-home dads, you name it. One guy that lives in his mom's basement for Pete's sake. Who are these people? And what do they have to look forward to in the courtroom? With me, an all-star panel. First of all, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, joining me out of Beverly Hills at drbethanymarshall.com. James Shelnut, 27 years, Metro major case, SWAT, now at ShelnutLawFirm.com. Robert Crispin, private investigator at CrispinInvestigation.com. Catherine Maloney, deputy chief medical examiner, Erie County in Buffalo.

But first, to Washington Examiner reporter, Emily Larson. Emily, tell me about the D.C. Capitol Police officer in 2008. And these Capitol Police officers are people that lawmakers, reporters, people who work in the Capitol see every day. And so a lot of times you don't necessarily know these people's names, but you see them around, you banter and he's one of the people who he he he was engaged with the rioters who breached the building there was reports that he got hit in the head with either a fire extinguisher or a pipe we're not really sure he he had texted his family that he got pepper sprayed twice he went back to his office or engaging with the rioters and collapsed. And there were reports from his family that he had a blood clot and had them alive.

And he sadly passed after that. Not only did we lose Officer Brian Sicknick, but others are dying as a result of the Capitol assault. Speaking of Sicknick, you just heard from our friends at WJZ 13. Take a listen to Brian LaShawn, WSA 9. 42-year-old officer Brian Sicknick, a 12-year veteran of the force. His family says he always wanted to be a cop. He served his country in the New Jersey Air National Guard, deploying repeatedly to the Middle East. But his brother says he always saw that as a stepping stone to joining the police. Friends say he was an outspoken supporter of President Trump. But when pro-Trump insurrectionists invaded our temple of democracy, he did his best to hold them back. He did his best and lost his life doing that.

I want to go straight out to James Shelnut, now a lawyer, but former SWAT officer for nearly 30 years at ShelnutLawFirm.com. James, I get the sense that this first appeared to be a protest and that the Capitol Police Force was letting people exercise their right to assembly and to protest. But then everything went sideways. What went wrong with the crowd control? You know, looking back on it, it's easy to look at it in retrospect with 20-20 vision. But, you know, so admit it, that's the place I'm coming from with this. But, you know, they were inadequately prepared. You look and you see the number of people that are out there. They get intelligence reports.

They get intelligence briefings at the executive level of this department. And they knew that this was coming. This had been building for weeks and even months. And arguably, even over the last year, you know how much divisiveness and how much radical rhetoric is going on from both sides and how inflamed people are. They were just severely undermanned. And they underestimated the situation that they had on their hands, and I don't think that they were fully prepared. You know, Emily Larson, joining me from the Washington Examiner, Emily, I understood that one person had a fire, a big tank of a fire

extinguisher thrown at them, and it was that same extinguisher that ended up being used in the attack? Yes. I don't have confirmation of that, but there were not only attacks on this officer, but there were plenty of officers. There was one who was crushed by the mob, was trying to get through a doorway, and he got stuck in sort of the mob trying to get through the doorway. There's a terrible video of that. There were other, one officer when I was in the Capitol building and in the basement when this happened, and I talked to one officer who told me that there were a lot of head injuries with other officers, that there were socks filled with metal objects like batteries that were being swung at officers' heads.

And so, yes, these people who breached the Capitol were coming in fully prepared to attack. You know, it's amazing to me how this protest turned into a riot and how somehow Dr. Bethany, the new star of Bling Empire, Dr. Bethany Marshall, there's one thing. It's one thing to march. It's one thing to hold up a sign in a protest. I've done that. It's another thing to attack the Capitol Hill police force or any cop for that matter, or anyone, not just a cop, as part of your protest. How do you cross that line?

Nancy, you cross the line when powerful political figures are fueling conspiracy theories and stoking the fires of aggression and rage. Hold it just a minute right there. Look, I think I've been very clear about this, Bethany. I'm not a Democrat. I'm not a Republican. I hold all politicians in the same degree of contempt because I think they're all lying. OK, so I'm not for or against Trump or Biden. I'm for America. And under the law, Dr. Bethany Marshall, you can't blame anybody else for your actions unless you're under threat of death. You can't sit there and blame Biden or Trump or anybody else for what these people did.

Oh, H-E-L-L-N-O. Okay, Nancy, I don't ever want to be on the other side of the courtroom with you. And let me say, let me just take a mental health perspective with these attackers. These attackers stoked their negative belief system with conspiracy theories. These types of attackers have a certain psychological profile. Usually they have a low tolerance for ambiguity. They live in a black and white world. They have high levels of anxiety that are independent of what's going on in their lives.

I think they generate all that anxiety themselves. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Right now I'm talking to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst out of Beverly Hills, trying to figure out how a protest turned into a riot and we have body bags. Dead people. Dead people. And we have body bags, dead people, dead people because of this ridiculous riot with people running around in Halloween costumes and painting their faces and grown people dressed up in camouflage and zip ties running through our Capitol.

A lot has been made that we're the laughingstock of the world. You know what? I'm not concerned about what they think right now. What I'm concerned about is how these people, everyday people, turn into a mob that attacked a symbol that I hold dear. Our capital. Bethany, you were trying to give me some, let me just say, psycho mumbo jumbo about how that. I know what you're saying. They listen to Trump and they use that as an excuse.

They thought it was a directive to attack the Capitol. Again, I'm not for Trump or Biden. But that's the same thing as John David coming and telling me everybody else is doing it. I'm not buying it. You listen to some guys sitting up in the White House saying, grab your guns, and then you think it's okay to do it? Nancy, this is a universal question. I'm on two Zoom international chat groups with other psychoanalysts, scholars, authors from around the world. And we've all been debating, how did it go from a group of people being brainwashed to aggression?

And the Jewish members of my group. What? Wait. No, no, no, no. How did it go from that? They were not brainwashed. They chose to travel. You know what? I need backup. Emily Larson,

will you help me deal with Dr. Bethany Marshall and her international panel of what remarkists you're remarking on what happened? Emily, from what I can tell, these people were across the board. Firefighters, law enforcement, off-duty cops, a stay-at-home dad, a guy that lived in his mom's basement. He's the one wearing the furry hat with the horns. These people knew what they did was wrong because they took off running and basically hid out. So was this theory they were, what, brainwashed by watching somebody on TV tell them what to do? Well, I will say the man with the furry hat, his name is Jake Angeli. He is a well-known conspiracy theorist from Arizona. He lives in his mom's basement, doesn't he? Well, yeah, but he is a known figure. And so I think that looking at him might help explain how some of this violence happened and how it goes from looking at these theories online, believing that the country, I mean, a lot of the motivating factor for the people who breached the building. They're caught on video saying that they believe

that they are helping to save the country because the motivating factor is sort of like it's a revolution, the second American revolution, keeping it from falling into a stolen election into the wrong hands. So for a lot of these people, this was a patriotic act. And they believe that they were really helping to save the country from an election that was stolen from Donald Trump. And if you're on the- Wait, wait, wait. Let me understand something. Emily, I hear what you're saying, and I'm not negating it at all. But I'm getting to a legal issue of whether they knew right from wrong.

Saving our country from what they perceive to be a rigged election, how does that make it okay to beat a cop in the head with a fire extinguisher and run off with Nancy Pelosi's lectern and put it on eBay. What does that have to do with saving the country? I hear what you're saying, Emily, and I don't disagree. But it's just like people protesting for a reason and then running in and looting an electronic store and running out with a TV. Two plus two does not equal five. but you correctly brought up Jake Angeli.

Let's play cut 20. This is Erica Stapleton, News 12. The name he uses is Jake Angeli, and when I spoke to him over the phone this morning, he said he didn't have time to answer my many questions and was planning to head back home to Phoenix. Standing out in an already surreal sight. Jake Angeli, also known as Jacob Chansley, the horned protester with face paint,

now wanted as a person of interest by D.C. police after photos capture him inside the Capitol, even standing at the Senate dais. He's from Arizona, a regular at all kinds of protests and rallies from pro-Trump events to BLM marches, claiming to be part of QAnon, usually shouting about conspiracy theories with a sign that says Q sent him. Jake Angeli is just one of many people. And while he's being talked about as if he is some folkloric icon, he lives at home in his mother's basement. If I've got the right, the right guy. Take a listen now again to Erica Stapleton, 12 News Phoenix.

A yearbook photo confirms he graduated from Moon Valley High School, class of 2006. We tried his home in Phoenix, where neighbors tell us they've seen him outside with the horns on. A relative tells us over the phone she's not surprised or worried. He appears to be involved in the Capitol unrest. 12 News capturing him in his distinct getup as early as November 2019 in downtown Phoenix, again at a Trump rally in February 2020, and another months later in June 2020. Again that same month at an anti-mask rally in Scottsdale. And here he appears to be filming himself yelling at Arrowhead Mall in September 2020. I want you to ask yourself.

It's not clear if he traveled alone to D.C., but GoFundMe confirms he started a fundraiser to help him get out there in December for the MAGA Million March. A GoFundMe spokesperson says it only raised $10. Guys, I know it sounds bizarre that this guy who is walking around town, literally without a shirt on and a pair of pants and a furry cat with horns on it, has somehow come to the forefront of these protesters. I'm calling them the Capitol thugs. Take a listen to what it really means. This is Bruce LaShawn, WUSA 9, our cut 8. Now, the FBI and a top federal prosecutor declined to offer any more details in Officer Sicknick's death today.

Investigators tell me that if the medical examiner finds that he was hit in the head and that contributed to his death, that would be murder. And because it happened here on federal property, it would be charged as a federal crime. The North American Building Trades Unions has stepped up with a $100,000 reward. All of their get-ups and their rhetoric boil down to death, murder. And frankly, I believe that each one of them could have been charged or can be charged with felony murder in the death of Sicknick. Back to Emily Larson, reporter with the Washington Examiner. You said that you were there in the basement at the time? Yes, I was reporting from the Capitol basement. As soon as the Capitol perimeter was breached, the building went on lockdown.

We couldn't go in or out. And as soon as the rioters entered the building, we were not able to leave our media area. And at one point, I was trying to go see what was going on. And two police officers came walking towards me. One of them had gotten pepper sprayed in the face, he said, by one of the people who broke into the building and they needed water. I gave them my water bottle and then he flushed his eyes out over a trash can in our media area. And so that was a bit rattling. Another figure that's standing out amongst many is Aaron Mostofsky, the son of a Brooklyn Supreme Court judge arrested by the FBI in connection with the riot. He's been photographed. He was wearing fur pelts and a bulletproof vest quoted as saying he believed the election was stolen.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. As of right now, is there any evidence the election was stolen? And how does that play in, if at all, to what happened at the Capitol? Joining me, private investigator, former law enforcement, Crispin's investigation.com. Robert, we are now learning that some of the Capitol thugs were actually off duty cops. Can you believe it? Sure. Yeah. Explain. There's a lot of law enforcement. There's a lot of firefighters. There's a lot of doctors. There's nurses that are getting caught up in this movement. They're getting caught up in.

Will you stop calling murder a movement? I don't care about what they thought. When you hit a cop in the head with a fire extinguisher and he dies, that's murder. I don't care what you think about the election or Trump or Biden. Don't care. This is murder. I mean, it is 100% murder. But it is 100% murder.

Jackie agrees that you guys are the crazy ones, not me. All right. Now, what did you just agree with me? Or were you intimidated into that opinion? Not at all. It's the temperature of what's going on right now in society. These guys didn't go down there with the intent to kill a police officer. Well, I agree with you. I agree with you that they did not go with the intent to kill a cop. But as you know, Robert Crispin,

you're a cop for a long time in different jurisdictions. Now you run your own high-class investigations firm, Crispin Investigations. But you know that murder can be formed in the blink of an eye, the intent to commit murder. You don't have to travel. I mean, Emily, Emily Larson,

Washington Examiner, there are also reports that one of these women flew to the attack in a private jet. Is that true?iner, there are also reports that one of these women flew to the attack in a private jet. Is that true? Well, there were people who got there from all kinds of places. There were buses that shuttled people. There were planes full of people. There was a video of some of the people who were going to the protest, unclear if they participated in breaching the Capitol, but yelling at Senator Mitt Romney because he was not expected to do what they were helping him to do.

So, yes, I think it's I haven't heard that, but I think it's plausible that, yes, people came from all over the country and they were planning this for weeks. From all over the country, from all walks of life, we've told you about Jake and Jelly, the guy with the horns and the red, white, and blue face paint and the bare chest with Thor's hammer tattoo on himself, not judging, who lived in his mom's basement, did not hold down a job, and walked around town blasting various conspiracy theories. Okay. Then we told you about the pampered judge's son, Aaron Mostofsky, who was whining about the election. Then we've got Doug Jensen, our Cut 22. Take a listen to KCCI. New this morning, the Des Moines man seen in the deadly riots at the U.S. Capitol has been booked into the Polk County Jail.

41-year-old Doug Jensen is being held there for now. He is one of several people wanted by the FBI in connection to Wednesday's riot. Forrest and Associate Masonry in Des Moines says Jensen no longer has a job there. He was seen in videos and photos inside the Capitol building with rioters. The man seen with his feet up on Nancy Pelosi's desk is now under arrest. 60-year-old Richard Barnett of Arkansas is facing three federal charges for his role in the riot. Authorities say Barnett took a letter from the House Speaker's office and bragged about it on camera outside of the Capitol. I want to go back to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst joining me from Beverly Hills.

She's the star of a new Netflix show, Bling Empire, January 15th at drbethanymarshall.com. Dr. Bethany, now that I've gotten your resume out, do you hear this? These are not people, as you attempted to suggest at the beginning, that have been, quote, brainwashed. Brainwashed is under the law, for instance, like a Stockholm Syndrome situation where you truly have been subjected to torture or mental or emotional torture that has totally changed your way of thinking. These people have not been indoctrinated forcibly. They choose what they do. As you heard, this one guy we were just listening to from KCCI goes out with a letter from Pelosi's desk. And again, I don't like her or dislike her. I don't have a dog in the fight on the politics. But on this guy coming out and waving a letter and bragging about how he stole it from the speaker of the House office, from her lectern, bragging about it shows he knew what he did was wrong. Bethany?

Nancy, let me reformulate my thinking on this there's a difference between a criminal element an angry murderous mob and peaceful protests there's so much research that backs that up with that black lives matter here in los angeles we had all these peaceful protests and then criminal gangs flooded in afterwards bashing in store windows and stealing things. They were two distinct groups. This group appears to be somewhere in between. It's like a whole new animal. It's very mysterious.

And what I think is the best analogy is a gang rape. So when there's a gang rape, you often have like a strong, usually male leader, always male leader, who is inciting a willing group who shares the same murderous or lustful intent. And they all act in kind of a pack mentality. And you keep talking about the willingness of the group. And I will say I totally agree with you there. There were a lot of so-called innocence that said oh what I was just on a girls trip and I I just went to the Capitol to see what was happening but I think even those people while they may paint themselves as innocent had to have known

that you don't breach a building you don't break in windows these people trampled other people bashed in this police officer with a fire extinguisher. So I think that the common thread through this angry mob, you know, we're talking about conspiracy theories, but it's actually some kind of aggressive, murderous intent. And it's on a spectrum from like murderous thoughts and feelings that don't get acted out to actual action where it gets acted out in the community and they all incited's right and some of it mass hysteria. These people were not hysterical. To go in and grab Pelosi's lectern and run off and try to put it on eBay, that's not hysteria. Hysteria is when you are out of control. You're hysterical. These people knew darn well exactly what they were doing. And I think by bandying about terms like brainwash, hysteria, it's taking personal

responsibility off of them. And you've got people saying they're Trump supporters. They're not Trump supporters. They're Antifa. They're QAnon. They're this, they're that. It doesn't matter what they were or what they claim they believed in. They were not brainwashed. In fact, isn't it true, Emily Larson, Washington Examiner, now we've got a West Virginia State House member, Derek Evans, 35, arrested for taking Molotov cocktails. Or was he the one with the zip ties? It's all running together now.

A lawmaker, Molotov cocktails at our Capitol. Emily? Yes, and Derek Evans actually live streamed a video on Facebook of himself breaching the Capitol. And he was, I'm not sure why he thought that was a good idea because he was easily identifiable. He said at one point we're going in. He was wearing a helmet. Oh, is he the one that said we're in, baby? We're going in?

Yeah, he said we're going in. He's the one who said we're going in. And he was live streaming it. He told at one point in the video, he told a Capitol Police officer, God bless you. We still respect you. But obviously, if you're a lawmaker and you're breaching the U.S. Capitol building, that's not really ground for you to stay in office. And so he is no longer going to be yeah i guess not crime stories with nancy grace guys we're talking about one death in particular that has resulted from the Capitol thugs, and that is Officer Brian Sicknick. Take a listen to Alexandra Lyman, K-A-I-N-6, our cut nine. Officer Sicknick was

attacked by rioters at the Capitol Wednesday. Police say he collapsed when he returned to his office and was taken to the hospital where he died on Thursday. Congressman Tim Ryan says more than 50 other officers were also injured and 15 were hospitalized after being attacked by the pro-Trump mob. I mean these guys were hitting the Capitol Police in the head with lead pipes, a number of the injuries are head injuries. Some of those pipes and other weapons were disguised as flagpoles. In other cases, fire extinguishers were openly carried and used to attack officers and property. Let me go straight out to Catherine Maloney, Dr. Catherine Maloney, Deputy Chief Medical Examiner, Erie County Medical Examiner in Buffalo.

Dr. Maloney, thank you for being with us. Can you explain what happened to Officer Sicknick? It sounds like right now the medical examiner's office in Washington, D.C. is trying to figure that information out. There are reports that he was hit on the head with a fire extinguisher. He was also, there was tear gas, I believe, that was applied to his face. So it could be that he suffered a traumatic brain injury from the blow to the head from the fire extinguisher, or it's possible that the stress of the situation caused him to have some type of cardiac or neurological event such as a heart attack or a stroke, which again, because this activity, in addition to being a legal activity, is beyond what we would consider the so-called stress of daily living, which is normal things that happen to you in your daily, everyday activities, would most likely be considered a homicide. But again, it's up to the medical examiner's office to do a full investigation

and see what comes back. I find it very hard to believe that if you get hit in the head with a fire extinguisher tank and then you die afterwards that the two are not related. But we'll wait and see what happens. With me, Dr. Catherine Maloney out of Buffalo. To Emily Larson reporting with the Washington Examiner there at the Capitol when the attack occurred. The name Victoria Burgesson is burned into my memory.

The Connecticut woman arrested because of the riot who said she didn't know she was at the Capitol. Help me out, Emily. Yeah, well, one thing to keep in mind is that there were people who were leading the breach on the Capitol. One of my colleagues talked to a number of people who were going in and out of the Capitol at a certain point. It wasn't really possible for police officers to stop them from getting in. And so at a certain point, they were trying to keep them in a certain area. They were hoping, trying to shuffle them out of the building so one of my colleagues talked to some of the people who kind of just walked in after and said that they thought that they were allowed to go in there whether they actually believed that or they were just saying that is something else but

perhaps she falls into that category that she thought that you know she was just sort of following the crowd but you know, she was just sort of following the crowd. But, you know, maybe she was also just saying that because she doesn't want to make aware that she knew she was committing an illegal act. Well, she, many of these people are caught on video. So it's going to be very difficult for them to claim that they didn't know where they were, or they didn't know what was going on. Very different than shell nut. There's been a lot of talk about it being an inside job, so to speak. What do you make of that? You know, I'm not sure what to make of it. I will tell you, I've looked at that,

and there are a lot of ways that people can find out information about the Capitol building online. You know, there's photos that people have taken, photos posted. It's not that hard to develop what the floor plan is, what the entry and egress is to these buildings. You know, people who have been in there before, if you've ever gone in there and walked through, you know, you know where the security checkpoints are at. So I'm unsure how much of an inside job that it was. I'm not buying the whole inside job thing because if it were an inside job, I don't think that Capitol Hill police would have stood by and let their fellow officers be bludgeoned in the head and attacked and tear gassed. Oh, I agree. That just doesn't make sense to me. We also know about a stay-at-home Florida father of five, last name Johnson.

What can you tell me about this guy? A stay-at-home father of five. He is the one who was smiling by Nancy Pelosi's lectern. Emily Larson, who's this Florida dad, a stay-at-home dad? Well, he is somebody who went into, obviously went in. He's from Florida. He's 36 years old. He wore a Trump hat with the number 45 on it.

He has a tattoo that says God Wings Cross. So he was charged with knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted grounds and disorderly conduct. But yeah, I think he's also an example. From this guy, Adam Johnson, to the guy who was wearing the Viking helmet, to the Air Force, the veteran, the woman who died on, was shot by Capitol Police. very wide-ranging set of people who traveled to Washington, D.C. and protested and turned into a violent riot and insurrection. One rioter, a 58-year-old Christopher Stanton, has been found dead in his home in Alpharetta. Not only that, a suicide of a Capitol officer has taken place. Take a listen to our friends at Fox 5. More tonight about the Capitol police officer who died by suicide in the days following the Capitol riots.

Officer Howard Liebengood was a 15-year veteran of the force, a former race car driver who grew up in Virginia. Fox 5's Lindsay Watts is live at the National Mall with more. Lindsay? A family spokesman confirming tonight, Officer Howard Liebengood died by suicide Saturday and was on duty at the Capitol Wednesday. A brief statement says his death is a tragedy that has deprived all of us a dedicated public servant. His family has suffered a devastating loss. They're asking for privacy.

During the entire time I've been in the Senate, his face has been a very, very familiar face, the Senate. He's been in the Senate for a long time. He's been in the Senate for a long time. He's been in the Senate for a long time. He's suffered a devastating loss. They're asking for privacy during the entire time I've been in the Senate. His face has been a very, very familiar.

Face virtually every morning that I've come to work. Virginia Senator Tim Cain is among lawmakers who knew him well. Lieben Good interacted with countless people visiting the capital over the years. This photo has been the one used by news outlets around the world. Liebengood with three children of a former Senate staffer. Back to you, Emily Larson, Washington Examiner.

I'm now keeping a tally of those dead as a result of the attack on our Capitol. Of course, Brian Sicknick, Levin Good, Ashley Babbitt, who was shot, Kevin Greeson, Roseanne Byland, and Benjamin Phillips. Now we've got Christopher Stanton. Have I missed anybody, Emily? That's all that there was so much chaos and so many attacks on police officers and so many confrontations that it's really amazing that more people weren't fatally injured. And, you know, the haunting thing is that these people were looking for lawmakers. They were looking for Mike Pence.

They were saying, hang Mike Pence. There was a person with zip ties. What were they going to do with those? Were they planning to cuff these lawmakers. It was really haunting and it was very quick that right, right. It was, but the lawmakers only got out of the chamber just, you know, minutes before the, the rioters intruded into this House and Senate chambers. You know, to James Shelnut, 27 years Metro Major case, SWAT, now lawyer at ShelnutLawFirm.com. You know, there's a very tried and true legal theory, felony murder. When you're part of a felony and a death

occurs, intentional or not, you can be charged with felony murder. You know, I taught the other day, James, I was talking about the Capitol attack. I didn't realize the hornet's nest I was poking because immediately the person said, oh, they were not Trump supporters. They were not Trump supporters. You know what? Whether they were or they were not, in my mind, is irrelevant. Either you're Antifa or you're QAnon or you're a Trump supporter or a Biden supporter, it doesn't matter.

Or a Russian spy, doesn't matter. This was an attack on our Capitol and deaths have resulted, James Shelnut. I don't care what crazy theory you have for dressing up and attacking our Capitol, doesn't matter why you did it. No, I agree with you 100%. I'm sitting here listening to this conversation with some very intelligent people on this show. Every single one of them are superstars in their fields.

Yeah, fortunately, just to be in the presence of a lot of the people on this show, including you, but I sit back and look, and I look at it from a lawyer and I look at it as a former detective and I look at it just as average everyday guy. And if you look at this country over the last two or three years, we have become completely desensitized to violence, to destruction, to rioting. We just went through one hell of a year in 2020 with the coronavirus, with the George Floyd, with the protests. And this has somehow become, I believe, what some people consider to be normal, to go in and destroy, to just have insurrection. Insurrection has been occurring continuously for the past two years. This is a disgusting act by radicals. It is a crime, Shelnut.

What they did is a crime. And they all need to be identified and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Over my dead, cold body is this going away. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.