Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - CARNIVAL CRUISE TEEN CHEERLEADER "FOUGHT FOR HER LIFE," STRANGLED DEAD, WHY NO CHARGES?

Starting point is 00:00:00 This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The Carnival Cruise teen girl, the little cheerleader, we now learn thought for her life, strangled dead, a mechanical strangulation. What is that? And why no charges? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

Starting point is 00:00:30 I want to thank you for being with us. Teen girl, Anna, dead on a carnival cruise. Her body is found stuffed under a cabin bed. Life vests stuffed on top of her to hide her dead body. In the last hours, Anna Ketner, the teen girl cheerleader, going to that Titusville Christian school, already had her future mapped out, very organized. planning to join the military and ultimately be a police officer in the K-9 unit.

Starting point is 00:01:07 That little girl, the one scrubbed in sunshine. Let's see a picture of Anna, please. There you go. That's Anna Ketner. She's dead. Yes, the first photo was her experimenting with blonde hair. She's dead, stuffed under a cruise ship bed, wrapped in a blank. mummy style, we've been told, and then with life jackets crammed on top of her to hide her body. Listen. Anna Kepner's death on board a carnival cruise ship now ruled a homicide. Her autopsy stating she was mechanically asphyxiated by another person or persons. The medical examiner finds two bruises on the side of Anna's neck. She may have been held in a bar hold, meaning her attacker held an arm across her neck. See her in her little dive shirt.

Starting point is 00:02:02 She loved to scuba. She loved to snorkel. She loved to fish. Loved being out on the water. Joining me at the scene, private investigator, Robert Crispin with Crispin Special Investigations, former Federal Task Force for the Department of Justice.

Starting point is 00:02:20 That's the U.S. government. He has worked his entire life in this jurisdiction. It is a floating crime. scene. And now, Robert Crispin, that we learn it was a mechanical strangulation. I'm going to go to Dr. Kimball Krause in just one moment. The crime scene. The crime scene. When you were living in close quarters with someone sharing a small cramped space, the DNA processing of that scene becomes even more vital. I mean, it's like a peachy dish of DNA. And now it's all gone. Can you refresh everyone's recollection about the cruise ship investigators that first process that scene?

Starting point is 00:03:07 Well, scary enough, those guys aren't crime scene tech guys, and they're not former law enforcement guys. These are guys who took a test on the internet, got their license, and all of a sudden they're protecting, you know, 4,000 people on a cruise ship. But what's critical about this homicide is going to come down to DNA. It's going to come down to DNA. and what the medical examiner says in the autopsy, the cause of death, et cetera, et cetera. More importantly, did the victim fight, DNA under her nails, did she scratch the suspect? In all of these cases, Nancy, these victims fight for their life. They're clawing.

Starting point is 00:03:48 DNA is under their nails of the suspect who's trying to kill them. This is going to be very, very, very important critical evidence to go towards. an arrest, an indictment, or something to get this guy arrested and put in jail. It's going to take a little bit of time now because obviously we don't have a confession because if we had a confession, he'd already be in jail. So the FBI slowly and methodically... You know what, hold on just right there. Robert Crispin, I heard you referring to cause of death and MOD manner of death as

Starting point is 00:04:24 etc., etc. Okay. I remember reading one of my own transcripts of a trial. I tried, a felony, and I was writing the appeal to hold the conviction on appeal. And I must have been very, very tired by the end of that trial because I was arguing to the judge and I was making my legal argument and said, and judge, blah, blah, okay, like you're, et cetera, et cetera. I know one person, aside for myself, that will take issue with the cause of death and man. of death being called, etc., etc. Dr. Kendall Crowns, joining us, Chief Medical Examiner, Tarrant County, host of a hit-new podcast, Mayhem in the Morg. He is an esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU. Dr. Kendall Crowns, thank you for being with us. Got a lot of questions for you about mechanical strangulation. What is it? So mechanical asphyxia is basically some sort of compression on the chest or neck that makes it impossible for you to breathe. Specifically, mechanical strangulation, what they're referring to as a bar hold or choke hold

Starting point is 00:05:35 is where the arm is placed across the front of the neck and then drawn back with the other arm from pressing your trachea and making it impossible for you to breathe. The other situation is the carotid sleeper hold where they put your neck in the crook of the arm and then compress both sides of your trotid, causing the blood not to flow to your brain, and you pass out. So either one of those scenarios could be what they're defining as mechanical asphyxia or mechanical strangulation. Okay, let me understand something.

Starting point is 00:06:07 You put your arm across your neck to demonstrate mechanical strangulation. But we have learned tonight that Anna had two bruises on the side of, her neck, not the trache, not the front, the side of her neck. What does that mean? So it could mean when they're compressing the neck with the arm, that they're placing pressure with the other arm along the side of the neck, and the arm is kind of to the side causing the bruising. It could also mean that he placed her in a carotid sleeper hold and using the crux of his arm, both sides of his arm compressed on either sides of her neck, compressing her carotid and Karadids and caused her to pass out and die from lack of blood to her brain.

Starting point is 00:06:56 You know, another thing, and let me check with Shannon Butler on this. Investigative reporter, WFTV, Channel 9 in Florida, who's been on Anna's case from the very beginning. Shannon, we are being told that while the entire autopsy is not complete, specifically, toxicology and other lab work, that there was no sign of. sex attack. Have you learned that as well? Yeah, that's what we understand. I mean, remember, most of the information that we had been getting came mostly from family members, but that death certificate and at least preliminary information does suggest that that's the case

Starting point is 00:07:34 dancing. Okay, I'm looking at the death certificate. What part of the death certificate tells you there was no sex attack? Well, the death certificate does not, but information that we've received from sources, from the family members, have indicated that that is not this situation. Really? Really? Okay. Because you refer to the death certificate as proving there was no sex attack, and there's not one word on this death certificate, according my reading, that says anything about lack of sex attack or sex attack. So it's not on the death certificate. So we're getting the no sex attack knowledge from the family. Is that correct? the family and from other sources that are close to this investigation.

Starting point is 00:08:20 But that doesn't mean, Nancy, we're still a long way from having all of the answers that we need in this case. And I don't know that anybody is satisfied with the information that's been released so far. You know, Dr. Kendall Crowns, I want to follow up on what Shannon Butler just told us from WFTV. Dr. Kendall Crowns, if we don't have the toxicology report, yeah, then how am I to believe that we have a DNA result from a rape kit? Well, toxicology reports can take up to six to eight weeks, so you potentially don't have the DNA report back from a sexual assault kit or a rape kit because there hasn't been enough time passed.

Starting point is 00:09:06 So again, there'd have to be a little more testing done, a little more stuff done by the crime labs before it's all back. My answer to that is maybe there is still DNA out there waiting to get done and we just don't know about it yet. Dr. Kendall Crowns, how long did you say it would take for a talks report? Can't there be a rush on it? There can be a rush on it, but typically it can take 6 to 8 weeks, depending on what drugs are on board, especially if there's some sort of synthetic or designer drug being looked for. It can take up to two months.

Starting point is 00:09:37 What do you mean by synthetic or designer, please? Like synthetic marijuana, bath salts, those kind of. of designer drugs that every so often show up that we don't have a lot of specific testing for, so more has to be done. Every day that the drug chemists are making new variations on drugs that the toxicology labs are constantly having to test for to try and keep ahead of. You know, another issue, straight up to Sydney, Sunra joining us, Crime Stories, investigative reporter, Sydney, the word is getting put out that there was no sex attack and that drugs or alcohol did not play a contributing factor in her death.

Starting point is 00:10:16 We don't even have the talks report. We don't have a DNA report. So where is this coming from? It's premature. I agree. It's premature. It's coming from family members who have seen a more detailed death certificate than has been released to the public.

Starting point is 00:10:32 But how do they know this information if those reports have not been made official? There are so many confusing details about this case, Nancy. You know, Sidney, I think that people very often, they project what they want to be true. There was a lot made at the get-go. And this is on a court video. We have it on video where a civil attorney stated that the teens had been drinking. Now, Carnival Cruz says, oh, no, they were absolutely not drinking. But again, Robert Crispin, the proof.

Starting point is 00:11:09 will be in the pudding. Everybody can say whatever they want to say right now. No sex attack. Sex attack. No drugs or alcohol. Drugs or alcohol in the system. We don't have any of those results. And again, remember the bands that everybody wears on cruise ships? They will tell whether you, I said earlier, had a bag of chips, much less a drink. Now, I don't know that Carnival Cruz would give a minor a drink. So it may very well not show up on a wristband. Again, they're denying any alcohol was served to a minor. But could the minor get the alcohol in another way? Haven't you ever driven up to a 7-Eleven?

Starting point is 00:11:47 And you see a bunch of teens out there and they're paying people or asking people to bring them out beer? Absolutely, I've seen it. As a matter of fact, Carnival's blanket statement has to be that, Nancy. They can't come out to the public and say that they serve minors at sea.

Starting point is 00:12:00 They can't do that. And any of this information that's coming out is being released from the family. And don't forget, Nancy, They had at least 24 hours before that ship got back to the Port of Miami that that family was able to get together, concoct their story, and see or decide what they're going to release. They had a lot of time for family protects family.

Starting point is 00:12:26 And that's why this family may not want to release that she was sexually assaulted. If she was, they don't want that out there. Hey, Crispin. Yeah. I learned that Anna was feeling badly. She felt poorly. It was because of her braces were hurting her. And she asked to go back to the room early during dinner.

Starting point is 00:12:49 She went back, but then she got dressed up and reemerged. And what were you learning is she had on this cute little outfit. But in one report, Crispin, just one, it said, Anna was wrapped only in a blanket with life vest stuffed over her. Only, only in a blanket, which led me to believe that she was naked under the blanket. That's yet to be borne out. But if that is true or if she was partially clothed, why else would she have been partially clothed stuffed under a twin bed or naked wrapped in a blanket unless there had been a sex attack. What I'm saying is just because there's not DNA, just because there's not sperm on or in her body,

Starting point is 00:13:44 does not mean there was not a sex attack. Correct. And if you go back and you listen to one of the statements that was made from Anna's ex-boyfriend's father that the stepson had climbed on top of her one night when she was in bed. You know, I know that Project Innocence and the Poverty Law Institute and all the defense bars, you're going to get mad when I say this, but they can just chew on this. When you don't know a horse,

Starting point is 00:14:16 look at his track record. Listen. She just didn't feel safe around him. She's scared to tell anybody because she was scared that he would do something to her. Joshua, too, says Anna's close relationship with her stepbrother was one-sided. The 16-year-old is obsessed with Anna and made her uncomfortable with romantic advances. He once even caught him trying to climb into Anna's bed while the two were on FaceTime, Anna already asleep.

Starting point is 00:14:44 He says, Dad, I tried to tell the parents that this was happening, and they didn't want to believe me. He's like infatuated, attracted to her like crazy. He's always wanted to date her. Chris doesn't realize it's his fault. This whole thing is his fault. If he would have taken the warnings that Anna's ex-boyfriend gave him, then she would still be here. So keep that in mind, Christopher.

Starting point is 00:15:16 I blame you. That from Inside Edition and at Just Mom, 1984 on TikTok. That's Anna's bio, Mom. So explain to me Shannon Butler, Investigator Reporter, W. FTV. According to what we're learning from her ex-boyfriend, Joshua 2, it's not just what she said happened. He was on FaceTime with her. They were FaceTiming late at night. Anna fell asleep, but the FaceTime was still going. And he, according to reports, saw the 16-year-old stepbrother crawl on top of her. He saw it. It's not just her saying that happened to her.

Starting point is 00:15:57 And then he goes on to state, she did not feel safe around him. She was scared to tell anybody because she thought he would, quote, do something to her. That is what he said to reporters here. He also told his dad that. And his dad told reporters that there was always this fear Anna had of her stepbrother. But it wasn't just something that she talked about. The boyfriend said he knew about it. And then he saw that when it happened on FaceTime and even said, like, get off of her.

Starting point is 00:16:27 So there are a lot of questions about exactly what Anna told him and if that really happened. But that was his statement to reporters just after she was found dead on that cruise ship. To Dr. Janie Lacey, licensed psychotherapist, CEO of Life Counseling Solutions. She's an author. She's a star of her own podcast on YouTube. Dr. Janie Lacey, thank you for being with us. Why wouldn't she tell her parents? Why did everybody else know she was afraid of the teen stepbrother?

Starting point is 00:16:56 Well, Nancy, I think this speaks to a larger issue that I see in blended families, especially. Sometimes adults minimize concerning behaviors because acknowledging them, Nancy, would mean they have to confront deeper problems in the family structure. And there's often like this pressure to present this unified, happy family image. But when children don't feel safe and their safety doesn't come first, especially when a young woman says she's uncomfortable when a boyfriend reportedly witnessing an appropriate behavior. I mean, those things can't be dismissed. So I would suggest that she probably didn't tell her parents because of whatever the family dynamics probably could have been minimization, dismissing, or there was no safety there. So she confided in her boyfriend at the time and perhaps friends. But we see this very common in blended families when the picture of the

Starting point is 00:17:47 happy family comes before the safety and the feelings of the children, Nancy. To Spencer Aaronville, known as the cruise lawyer. That's one of his specialties. He's the founder of Aronfield trial lawyers. He's also an author. Spencer, thank you for being with us. Before I take you down the garden path of cruise ship law, you had to confront this at some point in court. One in four women. Look around you. One in four women and or girls have been sex assaulted in some way. Bam. Yet, we know it's not reported. We know that the statistics do not bear out that it is reported. There is shame attached to it. The girl, woman thinks it's her fault. Wow, did I lead him on? Is that my fault? Society enforces it. Why is she out with a short skirt on?

Starting point is 00:18:45 Why is she out at a bar by herself? Ad nauseum. The victim is always blamed. And I wonder, in this case, if this little girl that goes to this Titusville Christian school wants to be a canine handler, that's her aspiration, was afraid no one would believe her or even blame her. What about it, Aaron Feld? Yeah, unfortunately, it's very true, Nancy. Both men and women who are the victims of sexual assault are very reluctant to come forward for all the reasons you just spoke of. The guilt, the shame, the stigma, and all my years of representing victims of sexual assault on cruise lines, both men and women, that many of them have been victimized before. This is not the first time they have

Starting point is 00:19:36 been the victim of sexual abuse. So they have this compounded emotional paralysis that stops them from reporting it. And Nancy, if they do, the cruise lines in my experience are the least hopeful to them in getting them the care they need and preserving the evidence of these types of assaults and the cruise lines are guilty of not reporting them because those reports have to be put on the Department of Transportation website that will list the number of sexual assaults that happen per cruise line per quarter and if they're not reported the cruise lines don't have to report it and if they're not reported and not my stars That's an incredible fact.

Starting point is 00:20:28 Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Now, earlier, Dr. Janie Lacey was describing how some girls may not come forward and tell their own family about a family member or relative that is assaulting them. She brought up that this was a blended family. Well, it's very blended. Listen. By the time Anna is five, Christopher Kepner is having an affair with a teenage babysitter. When Tabitha Donahue turns 18, Chris marries her, and they have two children together. Heather has a hard time maintaining a relationship with Anna due to the bitter divorce with Chris.

Starting point is 00:21:10 We have reached out to Anna's family. We have not heard back, and I want to remind everyone that nobody has been charged tonight. And I'm wondering why. told Dr. Kendall Crowns that she, quote, fought for her life. How do we know that? How could we possibly know that? Tell me, in a nutshell, how would we know she, quote, fought for her life? There's evidence. Often with strangulations, the evidence is trying to get the object off your neck, so you'll see scratch marks on the neck from the individual's fingernails themselves. You can also see injuries on the person who is the suspect in the case as well,

Starting point is 00:21:56 scratches on their face, scratches on their arms. If you see intense particular hemorrhages or small pinpoint hemorrhages on the face, you know that the compression may have been released and then brought back, and it could be that sign of a struggle as well. As well as the bruising on her neck could be from her thrashing about trying to get the restraint off her neck. So there's a number of signs that could show that she fought back to try and get out of the hold. Dr. Kendall Crowns, you're amazing.

Starting point is 00:22:27 You just told me two things that hadn't already thought of. You mentioned that if the stranglehold and put on her and then released and she still kept fighting and it was put back, you're saying that that would result in additional particular hemorrhage, which is all the stress. You know, when you're wearing, you're getting your blood pressure, right? And it feels like part of your arm is going to blow up because of the pressure, it gets so tight, right? That's what happens to your eyes. The pressure is so tight that the tiny blood vessels in your eyes, hemorrhage, they burst. And you see that in asphyxiation, strangulation, be it manual or ligature or mechanical.

Starting point is 00:23:19 So explain to me what you were saying if the pressure had been put on her neck, released, and put back. What would you see as evidence of struggle? So, again, that would be the particular hemorrhages that you're talking about. The little pinpoint hemorrhages you see in the eye, but you also see them in the periocular region or around the eyes as well. It can be throughout the face, the gums. And what happens is it only takes a little bit of pressure to compress your jugular,

Starting point is 00:23:45 which is 4.4 pounds, and your carotid, which is 11 pounds of pressure. And once those are compressed, you do still have a little bit of vertebral artery circulation coming in. But what happens when those are released, all of a sudden that blood comes rushing back into your head. And then if the compression comes back again, that blood is trapped a second time. And then that can cause the particular hemorrhages to become more expressed or more pronounced because you keep getting that blood flow restored and then compressed and then restored and then eventually completely choked off or constricted. And that's why you'll see more and more bursting of the hemorrhages because of the blood keeps coming back in and then getting stopped. That helped me a lot, but I still have one question regarding what does it prove?

Starting point is 00:24:30 Is it probative? Would the original particular hemorrhages look different than the second round of particular hemorrhages? I mean, can I look at her particular hemorrhages and determine that the pressure had been applied, released, applied again? Could I tell that strictly from the particular hemorrhage alone? No. No, there would be no way.

Starting point is 00:24:57 It's just if they're really pronounced. Well, I'm telling you the science, but if it's really pronounced, you can get an idea that there's been more blood flow restored, but if there's just minimal particular hemorrhages that occurred initially, it won't be necessarily different. It's just that the fact that there's more of them means that there was more blood flow. and you said something about thrashing her head back and forth.

Starting point is 00:25:23 I'm trying to look for evidence proving a struggle because we have been told, quote, she fought for her life. You mentioned scratches. Got it. Agree. But what did you say about her thrashing her head back and forth which would indicate a struggle? How can I

Starting point is 00:25:40 tell she thrashed? You put the neck in a carotid sleeper holes and she starts pushing against the pressure on her neck back can cause the bruising. Also, internally, when the skin is dissected up and you look at the neck muscles, you can see stretching of neck, stretching hemorrhages of the neck muscles from them trying to pull out of the hold as well. So you can see that internally, like hemorrhages in the musculature that show that she was violently fighting against the constrictive process on her neck.

Starting point is 00:26:10 Anna excuses herself from dinner early, not feeling well. Surveillance footage shows Anna walking back to in entering the room she shares with her brothers. After eating, the teen boys come back to the room before the youngest sibling ventures out again to explore, leaving Anna and their stepbrother alone. Anna's brother heard a heated argument between them in their cabin the night before Anna was found dead. He heard the stepbrother yelling at Anna,

Starting point is 00:26:35 the sounds of furniture overturning, and screams from inside their room. He heard him yelling at her, like, in a harmful way. I've like shut the hell up and stuff like that. Like, something was, like, banging around and stuff, and, like, the chairs were getting thrown around in the room. From Inside Edition. There's an investigation conducted by the FBI arising out of sudden death of 18-year-old Anna Ketner. The little girl was wrapped in sheets, possibly a blanket.

Starting point is 00:27:06 It was a full 24 hours before her body was found. Anna Ketner, the teen cheerleader, dead on a carnival cruise ship. The cruise ship insisting there was no alcohol served to teens, but in a videoed court hearing, a lawyer says they were drinking. What is the truth? Don't know yet. Because in the last hours, a gag order has been placed. In other words, the medical examiner can't speak. Everybody's clamped down. Nobody can speak. Why? Why is that? That's very, very usual, but we're learning a lot because of divorce proceedings. Listen, court records from stepmom Shantel Hudson's divorce indicate her 16-year-old son and his stepbrother may be a suspect in the teen's murder. The FBI has remained silent. No charges have been filed. I would have difficulty and then putting the 16-year-old on the stand because I don't want anything done that would incriminate the young man.

Starting point is 00:28:14 So I believe what they're saying, Shannon Butler, joining us WFTV on this case from the very beginning, joining us out of Florida. You've got ongoing divorce custody proceedings. And in those, the mom of the teen stepbrother files an emergency hearing saying, I'm not answering any questions, nobody's taking the stand because it could hurt my son's right to a fair trial. A fair trial on what? Obviously, the Anna Kepner murder.

Starting point is 00:28:44 Yeah, that was the first we had heard about the stepbrother being a suspect. We didn't get any of that from investigators, but then you go into this, you know, separate court case, and that's how that information was revealed. And that's what kind of started everybody now asking these questions. And if you, you know, listen to the family members about that brother, they talk about how he was very, very distraught over this, how they had to, He had to be hospitalized. The behavior...

Starting point is 00:29:13 Whoa, boo, boo, whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. The teen stepbrother was distraught, correct? That's what they said. Okay. Was he distraught about Anna being dead or about him being a suspect? That's still the question. The family was very, very clear that he was very, very upset after this happened and had to be hospitalized. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Starting point is 00:29:47 Spencer Aaron Fell joining us, the cruise lawyer. He's handled so many cruise ship cases, typically for the complainant, the alleged victim, not the cruise line. He's got so many, I tried to count them, couldn't count them. Spencer,

Starting point is 00:30:08 we were told that the teen brother was so distraught that he had to go in the hospital. Then he was miraculously released from the hospital. He wasn't wearing a band-aid. He wasn't on crutches. Why was he in the hospital? Was that a delay tactic? Then we were told he was, quote, so upset he, quote, couldn't talk to FBI investigators. sounds a lot to me like invoking your right to remain silent. 100% Nancy, and it also is destruction of evidence because when he went to the hospital, I'm sure that he changed his clothes. I don't know what happened to his clothes.

Starting point is 00:30:51 I'm sure he was cleaned and his fingers and what's under his nails and all sorts of things that would have been invaluable evidence to the investigators and prosecutors in this case were probably lost by that trip to the hospital. It really interrupted the chain of custody of a lot of evidence that would have been left on him, including potentially bodily fluids and things that may have been on his hands or on his clothes. You know, Spencer Irnfield, you are in my own personal chamber of horrors. I hadn't even thought of that yet.

Starting point is 00:31:27 The fact that he goes straight into a hospital setting and his clothes could be, God knows where. Robert Crispin, that's important. I want to see his clothes. I want to look for microscopic evidence. I want to look for blood. I want to look for sperm. I want to look for her blood. And yes, I want to see his underwear for obvious reasons.

Starting point is 00:31:48 It's probably all gone, Robert. It probably is. Nancy, hence the long delay before the ship got back to locking down the crime scene, locking down the people, their clothing, not letting anyone go anywhere, intermingle, talk to people, separating everybody. It's just, it's a recipe for disaster. Those clothes tell investigators and prosecutors and judges and juries so much information.

Starting point is 00:32:21 It's insane the information that comes out of just your clothes. Or what comes from underneath your fingernail? Or what comes from actually on your body? Nancy, come on, how many times have you known or heard where a fingerprint is actually pulled from a body? Somebody else's fingerprint. Also, because of this court hearing, we hear allegations that the teens have been drinking. Is that true? We don't know yet.

Starting point is 00:32:48 Listen. We feel there are some circumstances regarding that the 16-year-old and the mother's judgment regarding that cruise that would affect, you know, obviously that her ability to care for the minor child, the nine-year-old, the 16-year-old was allowed to drink. The teenagers were given their own room in which to stay. Just a lot of circumstances that showed that the mother in this case was not exercising appropriate supervision over this child. And of course the cruise ship is vehemently denying that the teens had alcohol.

Starting point is 00:33:31 of course the family is stunned they've got anna dad stuffed under a bed they've got the 16 year old reportedly a target listen he was a good student played soccer he played soccer very quiet young man he had demons i think in his past and he was trying to deal with those barbara and geoffrey keppner are shocked and a 16 year old stepbrother is being eyed as the suspect in her murder describing them as two peas in a pod, and very close. She says the teen was distraught when he learned and his body was found and couldn't speak during an initial interview with FBI agents.

Starting point is 00:34:10 Barbara says the teen claims he can't remember what happened and was hospitalized for psychiatric observation when they arrived back in Miami. He was an emotional mess. He couldn't even speak. He couldn't believe what had happened. That from our friends at ABC. Did you hear that Dr. Janie Lacey?

Starting point is 00:34:30 he joining us, licensed psychotherapist, he was an emotional mess. He couldn't speak. He couldn't believe what happened. He was in the room when it happened according to circumstantial evidence. Unless we want to believe she choke held herself

Starting point is 00:34:46 and stuffed herself under the bunk. Tonight, no charges. What does that mean to you? An emotional mess. Couldn't speak. Couldn't believe what happened. It means a couple things, Nancy, in that interview her talking about his demons. So did the family know that he had some struggles and they weren't adequately addressed.

Starting point is 00:35:04 And then the critical question to me becomes, then where were the adults? If they were, where are these demons and appease emotionally distressed in these types of things, right? That can be a shock, truly a shock, because we do have situations, Nancy, where when people go into what we would call a narcissistic type of rage,

Starting point is 00:35:22 when they get some type of rejection, or they're not getting the things that they want, that in that moment, the heightenedness of their emotional regulation, goes and they can have these moments where they kind of black out, so to speak. And then when they come to, there's a gravity of what has happened to, in their behaviors in this, in the situation. So, you know, it also could be the consciousness of guilt. When you have the consciousness of guilt, those emotions can come on, come on strong. So I would probably say it's somewhere in

Starting point is 00:35:50 those two realms, Nancy. Then you have the whole other can of worms with the bio mom. What are we hearing from her. He never once tried to call me and get a hold of me in anything when she died. I found out through Google. Heather says on top of discovering Anna died through internet searches instead of her father, Kaptner also told her she wasn't welcome at Anna's celebration of life service. She claims Kaptner threatened to have her arrested. Heather wore a disguise to her own daughter's memorial so she could say goodbye and peace. Heather is not mentioned in Anna's obituary. I'm going to put a wig on and wear some really tall shoes because I'm full. foot nine. Wish to

Starting point is 00:36:30 an inside addition. And back out to Robert Crispin, private investigator, Crispin's special investigations. This is his turf. He's joining us from Port of Miami. Did you hear that? The teen stepbrother is too distraught to speak. First goes into

Starting point is 00:36:48 a psychiatric hold. Then he comes out really quickly. Guess he wasn't that ill. Now he's too upset to talk about what happened in the room where he and Anna were alone, and she ends up stuffed under a twin bed. Too upset to speak. He's too upset about, quote, what happened.

Starting point is 00:37:07 He also told someone he couldn't remember what happened. So what is that, a temporary blackout? So that's not uncommon. They don't remember things. Oh, I feel so bad. I got to go to the hospital. I can't believe what happened. I don't remember.

Starting point is 00:37:24 Nancy, go back in the history of this kid. There's reports out there. that he's had demons i want to know what are his demons i want to know did those demons come to light in that cabin with anna why do i care about his feelings i do not care about his feelings i care about her dead body which by the way she's been cremated so i certainly hope they got all the evidence that they needed to get from her body but that said why do i have to keep hearing about him being upset. She's dead. I'm upset about her death, not about his feelings. I understand, but that's very, very important to a prosecutor and law enforcement. Because how many times,

Starting point is 00:38:10 Nancy, have we had a suspect who killed someone, never went to church in their life? They're a suspect. We can't prove it yet. And all of a sudden, now they found God. They go to church every single day. That's a sign. I'm so glad you said what you just said, because Shannon, Butler, investigative reporter WFTV, you heard what Crispin just said? The teen has not been charged. Why has the teen not been charged? That said, he's not even being held as a suspect. He is walking free. He is, quote,

Starting point is 00:38:47 underwatch. Underwatch by who? Who's watching him? Well, that's the frustration from the family and, frankly, this community along the coast there. That's the frustration like when is something going to happen? When is there going to be an arrest? When are the answers going to come out? There's just so much we don't know about this case because the FBI has not been transparent

Starting point is 00:39:09 with their information, their investigation, which is not unusual for the FBI. But there's lots of information that still is not out there. We can only assume that they're building the case and that something will happen soon. But there is no timeline for that. We don't know how long we'll be sitting here waiting and this family will have to wait for some kind of answer here.

Starting point is 00:39:33 If you know or think you know anything about Anna's murder, mechanical strangulation, please call 754703-2000. Repeat. 754-703-2,000. It could be something that you observed. It could be something your child told you. that Anna said. It could be something

Starting point is 00:40:02 the teen boy said. If you know or think you know, please help with this investigation. It is ongoing. And tonight, still no charges. We remember an American

Starting point is 00:40:18 hero, Officer Alex Sanders, Alamara, PD, California. Just 28, killed in the line of duty, leaving behind a grieving fiancé, American hero officer Alec Sanders. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, a friend.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - CARNIVAL CRUISE TEEN CHEERLEADER "FOUGHT FOR HER LIFE," STRANGLED DEAD, WHY NO CHARGES?

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