Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - 'CESSPOOL PRINCESS' Had 2 Bottles of Wine & DRUGS When Shoved Voice Coach, 87, to her Death, Says Defense

Episode Date: June 22, 2023

The socialite charged with shoving an elderly woman to her death may be getting a plea deal. Lauren Pazienza's attorney says the woman couldn’t possess the intent to commit the crime. Defense attorney Arthur Aidala says his client was using prescription drugs, and had imbibed up to two bottles of wine, and marijuana at the time.  The victim, 87-year-old Broadway singing coach Barbara Maier Gustern, fell and hit her head, after being hit by Pazienza. She was conscious directly after the incident, but fell into unconsciousness and died from her injuries five days later.   Pazienza has already turned down two plea deals from prosecutors. If convicted, Pazienza faces up to 25 years behind bars. Her next court date is July 20.  Joining Nancy Grace Today: AJ Maier Gustern - Grandson of Victim James Shelnutt – Attorney – The Shelnutt Law Firm, P.C.; 27-year Atlanta Metro Area Major Case Detective and Former S.W.A.T. Officer; Twitter: @ShelnuttLawFirm Dr. Angela Arnold – Psychiatrist, Atlanta GA.; Expert in the Treatment of Pregnant/Postpartum Women, Former Assistant Professor of Psychiatry, Obstetrics and Gynecology: Emory University; Former Medical Director of The Psychiatric Ob-Gyn Clinic at Grady Memorial Hospital; Voted My Buckhead’s Best Psychiatric Practice of 2022 Joseph Giacalone - Former NYPD Sergeant SDS and Author: “ The Cold Case Handbook” and “The Criminal Investigative Function: A Guide for New Investigators 4th Edition;" Twitter: @JoeGiacalone  Dr. Michael Baden– Former Chief Medical Examiner of New York City and past Co-Director of the New York State Police Medico-Legal Investigations Unit- Author: “American Autopsy” Tony DeStefano – Special Writer, Newsday; Author: “The Deadly Dob: Vito Genovese” and “Mafia Boss;” Twitter: @TonyNewsDay, Instagram: @Tony.Destefano.Newsday See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The so-called cesspool princess, 27-year-old Lauren Pazienza. I don't know if you remember her name because I'll never forget it. Accused of shoving an 87-year-old beloved voice coach, a voice teacher, to the sidewalk. She died. Now has a defense. And the defense is, oh, she didn't know what she was doing. She had two bottles of wine, drugs, and a ton of weed. That's the defense?

This while her defense lawyer, high-profile lawyer, author Idalla claims his client is overcharged. You know what I say to that? Now, this is a technical legal term. B.S. B.S. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111.

The gall of saying she's innocent, she's not guilty because she had two bottles of wine, drugs and a quote ton of weed. Take a listen to our friends at Crime Online. The attorney for New York City's sidewalk shover, Lauren Pazienza, claims the spoiled socialite was a drunk and high mess the night she allegedly pushed legendary Broadway singing coach Barbara Gustern, causing the 87-year-old to fall and later die from her injuries. Pazienza's defense attorney, Arthur Idalla, standing outside the Manhattan criminal courtroom said, quote, she had drugs, maybe two bottles of wine and a ton of marijuana, unquote.

Pazienza is facing charges of manslaughter and assault for the unprovoked attack on Guston. After Pazienza allegedly shoved her, the 87-year-old legend fell and hit her head. She died five days later from those injuries. The 27-year-old has been held at Rikers Island, but her lawyer said she's close to agreeing to a plea deal. I don't know about that. I don't know why this case should not go to trial. And this young woman, well, she's not that young. She's 27 years old, old enough to know better,

shouldn't get the max. The victim in this case, Barbara Mayer Gustern, was not just a legend in the singing industry. She's a beloved mother and grandmother. Joining me right now in addition to an all-star panel is her grandson, A.J. A.J. Mayer-Gustin. A.J., thank you for being with us. Thank you for having me. I hope you had already heard of the defense, and I definitely put that in air quotas. I don't want to be the one to tell you to break it to you that the defense in this case is that she the defendant the cesspool princess as she is called and she gets that name. I think Tony DiStefano is with us from Newsday. Tony doesn't she get the name cesspool princess? She gets it because her father is a millionaire that digs septic tanks

and all sorts of related products and services that's correct he has a business on long island and uh uh you know it's basically a cesspool uh cleaning and maintenance business and uh i suppose he's done pretty well he's got a a nice home in Port Jeff. So Port Jefferson. So, you know, that's what that's where that's where she gets that moniker. Well, the reality is, is she has been given everything in life on a silver platter. Advantages, schools, vacations, clothes. Most people could only dream up. And this is what happens. Back to A.J. Mayor Gustern.

This is Barbara Gustern's grandson. A.J., what do you make of the defense that she should somehow get leniency because she had had two bottles of wine, drugs, and a quote, ton of weed the night that she shoved your grandmother to her death? Sure. I have been following this case quite closely, and I think it's interesting, actually, that her father recently seems to have changed the name of his business. I think the business had their name in it, and they've since changed it. But I think the defense is completely ridiculous.

You know, I think in particular I saw a mention of Xanax and anybody who's prescribed Xanax should know that when you mix it with alcohol, it leads to aggression, right? It's, it's a common thing of Xanax. Um, and I know plenty of other people who have taken, you know, a little bit of wine and weed and not done this. So people do it every day. It's completely ridiculous that she would resort to this. AJ, were you with your grandmother till the end? I was.

I was holding her hand right when she passed. I read about that and it just brings to mind being in the hospital room beside my dad when he passed away. And I'll never forget that, just sitting in the room after he had already gone to heaven and wondering why that had to happen. He was the exact same age as your grandma. And when I hear this woman's lawyer claim she was, quote, overcharged and that she should not be held accountable because she was drunk and high, that's not working for me. With me right now, you know him well, renowned former chief medical examiner in

New York City, past co-director for New York State Police Medico Legal Investigations Unit, and author of American Autopsy, the famed Dr. Michael Bodden is joining us. Dr. Bodden, thank you for being with us. What idiot would mix drugs, weed, and two bottles of wine? Well, unfortunately, there are a lot of such idiots around that drink alcohol and use drugs much stronger than weed in our culture right now. But the kind of defense, Arthur Adala is a very good lawyer. I used to work with him when I started out with his father. His father was one of the top

homicide prosecutors in the Manhattan District Attorney's Office. That goes back a while in the 70s and all. And he is also a very good lawyer, but the defense doesn't have much merit. It's not unreasonable if a defense lawyer doesn't have any better defense to say, well, my client, my defendant was drunk. He'd been drinking before he shot his wife and he didn't really know what he's doing. And that may be partially true that if you have a lot of alcohol, you don't quite know what you're doing. But as soon as you start, you know, when're taking the alcohol you know when you're taking the weed and those are conscious decisions and they have consequences and I think for that reason usually always in my experience because I've been in another

a number of testimonies where the defense was the person didn't know what he was doing because it was on amphetamines, it was on drugs, he was most commonly on alcohol. And it never works because the legal concept is it isn't just that you're not in possession of all your faculties. It's because you knew that, you should have known that when you started drinking the alcohol in the first place. Dr. Bodden, guys with me, Dr. Michael Bodden, you know him well. You

and I would spend many hours talking, including Arthur Idalla, remember? Back at Court TV. Yes, wow, those were the days. Good times. So we've had many opportunities to question Arthur Idalla, and he is a very, very good lawyer. I guess it runs in the family

because his father was a great prosecutor. But the reality is, and let me throw this to James Shelnut joining me, high profile lawyer out of the Atlanta metro area with a Shelnut law firm, not just renowned lawyer, but was with major case division SWAT. James Shelnut, if the I was drunk defense was legitimate, everybody in the Fulton County jail would be out right now. Everybody would go, yeah, I was drunk. That, I mean, the letter of the law, the black and white letter of the law is voluntary use of drugs or alcohol is not a defense under the law unless it can be proved the defendant was comatose. Truly, truly blacked out. But that wouldn't require you to be laying out flat out comatose. This woman was not comatose. She was angry after a fight with her fiance, had a head of steam, was drunk and high and using drugs according to her lawyer. She was anything but comatose

oh i agree 100 look that's a pretty high hurdle to prove that you did not have the intent to commit a crime you know voluntary intoxication is never a total defense to criminal charges but voluntary intoxication can be used and can be argued under new York law. I read the law on it this morning. It can be used to negate the element of intent for some crime. Can I just break that down? Because that was quite a mouthful. You sound like a law school professor in first year criminal law. Bottom line, it's never a defense. It's not a defense like this was an accident or self-defense, which are both total defenses

under the law. If you can prove a case was self-defense or it was an accident, you're out. You walk free. You're acquitted. Bam. But if you have diminished capacity, it can reduce a case from murder one to let's just say voluntary manslaughter because as James Shelnut is pointing out it can be argued that you had not complete control of your faculties

but from what we know that night she knew exactly what she was doing because she tried to cover her tracks she hid out afterwards and even lied. But I want to put the focus back on Barbara Mayer Guston, who suffered before she finally passed away with her grandson AJ beside her when she died. Take a listen to Ida Siegel at NBC4. A single bouquet of flowers sits on 28th Street tonight where Barbara Gustern was shoved to the ground last week. Today, family announced that the beloved singer and renowned voice coach did not survive. Hearing about it made me feel like I got hit on the head with a hammer. On Barbara's Facebook page, her grandson posted a photo of him holding her hand in the hospital writing today at 1115 a.m. we've lost one of the brightest little flames to ever grace this world the tributes came pouring in and she was so wonderful

she was encouraging she was firm she was the perfect teacher just that sharp clever you know seasoned person you know, seasoned person, you know. It's like, she was amazing. Stephen Shanahan owns restaurant and theater Pangea, where Barbara had recently performed and where she had hoped to premiere a new cabaret show. They sing and they tell stories. It's very heartwarming. And they've done several different shows here.

That's who was killed. That's who was shoved to the sidewalk. And, A.J., isn't it true, your grandmother, Barbara, did not know Lauren Pazienza at all. They were complete strangers. They were complete strangers, yeah. I think it's another telling thing that she targeted my grandmother, of all people. You know, she didn't go after some 200-pound guy. She went after my ba-ba, who, God, was older than she weighed.

So it's incomprehensible. You just really struck a nerve with me, AJ. My mother, Elizabeth, who lives with us, she's going to be 92, God willing, in December. And that's about what she weighs, no matter how much I try to feed her. And the thought of someone pushing my mother to the sidewalk where your grandma hit her head and then died, is unimaginable to me. The cruelty involved in that. I want to understand what happened.

Guys, take a listen to our cut 11. Our friends at NBC4. This attack happened on March 10th on 28th Street in Chelsea on Gustern's block. Detectives gave us surveillance from that night. They say that she stayed in the area for about a half an hour and left only after she saw an ambulance arrive. We now know that investigators tracked her movements through the subway when she met up with her fiancé all the way until they got to their apartment in Astoria. I'd like to stress, innocent until proven guilty. You know, if she did do this, then I would like answers, but this woman deserves her day in court.

Why? If police know they aren't sharing that tonight, they are telling us that the suspect cursed at the victim. And before she died, the victim told police the push was as hard as she's ever been hit in her life. I feel very vulnerable. Look, I'm older, and I have a cane that just screams, start up with me because I can't defend myself. I will to the death, but it makes you feel like you have a target on your back. And to show guilty conscience, which can come into evidence, your actions before, during and after a crime. That evidence is overwhelming. Hiding out, leaving the scene,

lying, deleting all of her social media, stashing her cell phone. Well, as a matter of fact, take a listen to our cut 10, our friend Erica Byfield. The police detailing tonight how they say that she tried to evade capture for weeks. They tell us that she quit her job, deleted all of her social media, got rid of her wedding website. She was supposed to get married in June. They also say that she stashed her cell phone at her aunt's house and then hid out at her parents' house on Long Island. Midday Tuesday, we finally saw 26-year-old Lauren Pazienza, her hair draped over her face, refusing to talk, just after police charged her with manslaughter saying that she shoved and killed 87 year old barbara gustern i think she was a crappy person i mean who goes around shoving an old woman gustern was a beloved broadway voice coach she gave lessons to the greats her grandson is still trying to process losing her and the arrest yeah there is a sense of closure. So if somebody is so drunk and high and on

drugs that they had no idea what they were doing, why did they hide out? Why did she delete all of her social media? And not only that, even thinking to use her fiance's transit card so her movements could not be traced by police including ditching her cell phone take a listen to our cut 14 from our friends at inside edition authorities say pazienza and her fiance who works for microsoft got into the subway at penn station they transferred at times square and then took the train to their apartment in Queens, leaving a digital trail with the fiancé's MetroCard. Pazienza allegedly spent the next few hours taking down all her social media and photos, including the website for her June wedding. Police say the day after Gustern died, Pazienza went into hiding at her parents'

Long Island home. She stayed there for two weeks. Meanwhile, she must have known that police were on her tail. They released video of her at the crime scene and plastered wanted posters across the city. On Monday, two people who knew her well called in to tip detectives went to her parents' home. Her father reportedly told them she wasn't there but wouldn't let them search the house the next day she knew it was over and she turned herself in now claiming she's too drunk high and on drugs to know what she was doing but she sure left a trail a mile wide and tried to cover her tracks to t Tony DiStefano.

Tony, thank you for being with us, joining us on Newsday. Tony, what do we know about what really happened the night that Barbara was pushed ultimately to her death? Well, from the police reports, from the criminal complaint and indictment in the case. We know that they had, she, Lauren and her boyfriend were having drinks in a park. She was drinking a lot from what I understand. They were told to leave the park by a park worker because it was obviously late. She got angry.

Hold on, Tony DiStefano. Got angry about what? What? She got cut off Hold on, Tony DiStefano. Got angry about what? What? She got cut off from booze? After having to leave the park. But, okay, right there. Right there. Tony DiStefano is joining us from Newsday newspaper.

But, Tony, as much as I respect you and I love everything you write, I got to go to a shrink right now. Because I don't get it. It's like you're at a bar and they blink the lights and you get mad and throw a chair because you have to stop drinking and leave. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Dr. Angela Arnold's psychiatrist is joining us. You can find her at AngelaArnoldMD.com. Dr. Angie, help me, because I don't understand the getting angry when you have to stop drinking and go home and go to sleep. Why would that make you angry? Nancy, I think that that shows us the inside workings of this girl's mind.

No one ever tells her what to do. And if they do, she never has a consequence. And if they tell her what to do, she acts badly like this. That's why she got mad because you know what nancy she hasn't lived under the regular rules of other people and that's the part of all of this that we need to look at they keep saying that she's a girl of privilege and all of this nancy she hasn't lived like like other people have lived hold on i'm looking at a picture of her right now on a family vacation as a teen.

She's got on like a leopard skin micro bikini beside a pool with palm trees in the background. And the caption says, appears to have lived a life of privilege and later glamour in New York City's high society. What does that mean? What that means is she's been doted upon and she's had everything given to her at times in her life that she shouldn't have had them. Whoa, wait a minute. Is this her standing in front of a Porsche? Look at those pictures I sent you, Jackie. Is that her in front of a Porsche?

Does Stefano, does she drive a Porsche? I have no idea what you drove. Well, I'm looking right at a picture and she's got car keys. It looks like car keys in her hands and she's pointing toward a Porsche. I mean, I think all you really need to look at, right, is she posted a $500,000 bail, which is 10 times more than the average American family makes in a year, to avoid jail for a month. I'd be curious to see how much her family has donated to the soup kitchen that my grandmother went to that she was murdered across the street from. Guys, you're hearing the voice of Barbara's grandson, who was with her to the end, who was holding her hand when she went to heaven

because of this woman, drunk, high, on drugs, with a silver spoon still clenched between her teeth for no reason, angry because she was cut off drinking in the park, and takes it out

on an 87-year-old woman. And you heard AJ say that's about as much as she weighed. She didn't go shove a 300 pound muscle bound guy that just left the gym. She picked on an 87 year old, literally little old lady, a little old lady. A little old lady. Like my mother. Oh, oh, H-E-double-L, no. This woman does not need a sweetheart plea deal. Hey, Dr. Angie, what were you saying before somebody very rudely cut you off? Oh, it was me. Sorry.

Go ahead. What were you saying? Nancy, people should listen to this story and see and think about what privilege and saving your kids from things and not showing your kids consequences. This is what it leads to. This is the kind of behavior it leads to. And I want to point out something else. Everyone is stating that she was drunk and high. How do we know that? Nancy, she might drink like this on a regular basis. She might not have been touched, fazed by this alcohol. She wasn't drunk like I would be drunk if I had two glasses of wine.

Okay. She may do this every day. So let's not say she was drunk because we don't know that. Because as you said, as you pointed out, she knew exactly what to do after this happened. Okay. She knew exactly what to do. According to reports, when she was told the park was closing and she had to quit drinking and leave, she became enraged and she charged Barbara Gustern on the street, shoving the 87-year-old lady to the ground and calling your grandmother a bitch. She called your grandmother a bitch. Why? Why did she do that? And then stood there and watched as an ambulance crew took your grandma away with blood seeping from her head. And now, then spending the next two weeks hiding and covering her trail.

And now she wants leniency? Joseph Giacalone, joining me, former NYPD sergeant, author of the Cold Case Handbook and the Criminal Investigative Function, the Guide for New Investigators, fourth edition. That means it's been published three times before. Joseph, thank you for being with us. This is your backyard. What do you have to say about prosecutors allegedly offering her a sweetheart deal? Well, it's quite interesting because I look at it from the law enforcement perspective that you could have probably added on some charges.

I mean, when you choose an 87-year-old, there are statutes in New York City that you could even make a claim at that they could have been even a hate crime. So, you know, she called him her name. That's something that you have to look further into. I mean, listen, prosecutors and defense attorneys do what they do, right? So prosecutors, most of the cases, they plead them out.

They rarely go to trial. I know you have a lawyer on the panel today, and I'm sure he would agree with me on that because you can't put every case in front of a jury but you know you have to look at the and focus on what you do have and the investigators did a great job here you know putting the pieces together with video surveillance cell phone records there might even been internet records right we know that the phone was found at the end house or probably singing they followed her

throughout the entire system, on the street, through video surveillance. So it goes to show you that painstaking detail to what the detectives had to go through was pretty amazing when you think about it. They put together a heck of a case. And my question is, why plead it out? Take this thing to trial.

Get the max on this woman who shoves an 87 year old grandmother to the ground and call her a bitch. Then stand by and watch her be taken away in an ambulance instead of focusing on her, focusing on hiding for the next two weeks until one of her friends turn her in after spotting her on TV, seeing that subway, seeing the video of her. But I want you to hear more about what happened the night of the incident. Take a listen to our cut 13, our friends at Inside Edition. We're learning more about the young woman accused of an unspeakable crime, shoving an elderly lady to her death for no reason.

Police say six minutes after the unprovoked attack, the suspect, 26-year-old Lauren Pazienza, walked back to the scene and watched an ambulance take away the elderly woman, 87-year-old Barbara Gustern, a renowned singing coach. The suspect's high-powered lawyer, Arthur Idalla, spoke to reporters after her arraignment and previewed what may be her defense. Whether it was a push or whether it was a shove or whether it was a kick or whether someone tripped, the evidence is not very solid on that at all. Police say the victim remained conscious long enough to tell them her assailant, who she had never met before, crossed the street, then called her the B word and pushed her as hard as she had ever been hit in her life. Can you imagine

calling your mother or your grandmother a bitch? Can you even imagine that? I mean, A.J. Mayor Gustern, this is Barbara Gustern's grandson who stayed with her till the end. I just lost every chance of me believing anything the defense said is over by saying the word maybe she tripped. B.S. Your grandmother did not trip. Nobody tripped. What were her words to you about how hard she was shoved, AJ? I actually wasn't present when I heard those words.

She got back to her building after the attack and the that she was called the b word and uh shoved as hard as she ever was in her life and then she shortly lost consciousness when she got in the ambulance and then i flew out the very next morning and i didn't see her um until i got in the hospital. The last time I talked to her was the Monday of that week. And yeah, I've seen Mr. Idalla say other things, like implying my grandmother had some kind of illness or disability, which is just ridiculous. At her age, she was still teaching voice all day, going out to shows.

I mean, she was comfortable enough to go out at night alone and walk to the show she was on her way to when she was killed. That's how much she loved the city and that's how much she trusted the city. And that's how capable she was. Well, she was on her way to see a show.

What was she seeing? One of her students shows. She was on her way to see one of her students and she was going to talk with another student about a book she was creating at that show. Wow, your grandmother was more cogent than most young people and young adults that I know. Let's go to Dr. Michael Bodden, former chief medical examiner in New York. Dr. Bodden, what happened to Barbara? She was fine.

Well, not fine, but she had her wits about her, was speaking, described to her student what happened, that she was shoved harder than she's ever been shoved in her life. And all of a sudden, she seemingly blacked out and then died. Yeah, that's a good question. Firstly, Nancy, I don't think she was shoved. She was struck very hard in the back. And I think there's a difference between somebody shoving somebody in a subway and just being whacked very hard in the back, which is, as AJ said, is what she said happened to her.

And then when she fell down and struck her head, remember Liam Neeson's wife? Natasha Richardson. Right. Natasha Richardson, when she skied down and fell down and they called an ambulance and she said she felt fine. There's one specific type of head injury, a tear of a little artery, middle meningeal artery, that when a fall occurs, it can get ruptured. But the patient doesn't feel anything for as the bleeding comes from it and many hours later or day later the bleeding accumulates to such an extent that it compresses the brain and causes the person

wait wait wait dr bodden we're not except for dr angela arnold who's not only an MD, but she's a psychiatrist as well. You're in like warp speed for all of us. What? First of all, what artery are you talking about? The middle meningeal artery. It's a little, it's a very small artery that goes to the... Where is it on your head? Like, is it above your ear near your temple? You got it.

That's just where it is. It comes through a little opening in the skull just behind the ear. You know how I know that, doctor? Okay, I don't think I've told you this. My son does track and field, and he was practicing discus. And some other kid came up behind him like 80 feet away and also started practicing discus. And my son, John David, heard somebody say, watch out! And he turned his head barely and a discus hit him in the head on the descent.

And all I could think about was bleeding on the brain. The coach said, hey, you taking him home? I'm like, no, I'm taking him to the emergency room. And if he had not turned his head, Dr. Biden, the hit was about three-fourths of an inch above the medial meningeal artery that you are describing. And it would have required immediate neurovascular surgery to save his life. So I just went through all this. Do you think that's what happened to Barbara?

Yes, and I think you saved your son's life when you brought him right to the emergency room because it doesn't heal by itself. It keeps bleeding slowly, and that's why the person is okay for a while. And while she described what happened, and then it just causes a person to gradually go to sleep and lose consciousness. There's no pain with it. She doesn't have any pain. But it's just the one little area. That's when she fell down.

That's when she fell on that ear area. You know. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Tony DiStefano joining us from Newsday newspaper, who's been on this from the very beginning. And AJ, everybody on the panel, please jump in. As you obviously know, this is not high tea at Windsor Castle with King Charles and Queen Camilla. Jump in when you have a thought. AJ, especially you. Tony, the defense is also arguing that the so-called cesspool princess, Lauren Pazienza, has been overcharged.

I don't understand why she's not charged with a hate crime with enhanced penalties, because when you commit a violent crime on an elder, typically in most jurisdictions, you get enhanced or greater sentences behind bars. And they're looking at a sweetheart deal. What's going on up there? Well, I'm wondering, you know, Ardala is trying to basically diminish the intent to cause injury element of first degree manslaughter. That's why they're arguing about the intoxication, the drug use, etc. Okay, you're actually making my head hurt, Tony. Why is it making your head hurt? The law presumes, and jump in if I'm wrong, anybody on the panel, the law presumes you intend the natural consequence of your act.

For instance, if I take a gun and I point it at Jackie and pull the trigger and kill her, I can't then say, oh, I just meant to scare her. Or you can't take a piece of fine china and hold it above a cement floor and then throw it down and breaks, and you say, oh, I didn't mean to break it. The law presumes you intend the natural consequence of your act. You shove, literally, a little old lady to the pavement, and she hits her head. What do you think is going to happen? There is the element of intent, but there also is the element of recklessness in the law. They're different. If she intended to shove Barbara Gustern to cause her injury, that's a conscious decision. If she did so recklessly, that's another element.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait. Tony, there's something called the abandoned and malignant heart, which means you are so reckless. For instance, if I got my minivan and floored it to 90 mph and then drove through a street market and I just happened to plow down four or five people and they died, that's still murder with an abandoned and malignant heart. Where are you, Shelnut? You're the lawyer on the panel today. Jump in, man. Help me with Tony DiStefano. He obviously knows the law better than you and I, so I need you. So look, this is the kicker to me.

When she shoves this lady and then calls her a bitch right after that she's intending that is clear evidence she is intending to seriously injure this lady that shows her intent right there on her worst day on her on the prosecution's worst day she's guilty of man one under new york penal code she could possibly be charged with a murder charge. To say that she is overcharged is sick. I wouldn't take a man one. That'd be over my dead body clutching the criminal

code. No way. No way. You know what? You're right. Okay, Tony DeStefano, I had to bring in backup to argue with you about the law. So, you know, that's a badge of honor, by the way, Tony. So what do you think is behind this sweetheart deal, if it's even true? Just because Idalla says it does not mean it's really happening.

Well, I think what the argument here ultimately is going to be about is the penalty. The prosecution and Idalla are arguing over negotiations here, and either they're going to stick with man one and get a negotiated penalty of some years in prison, or they might conceivably get down to man two, which will be a low-year threshold. Oh, dear Lord in heaven, no. What, will she get eight years and be out in four?

Well, I don't think she's going to have, at bare minimum, I think she's probably going to have eight years. If it's in the man-two zone. If it's any higher than that, I think she's going to suffer perhaps more substantial time. But Idalla also said outside the courtroom the other day that, look, if we don't get the kind of disposition we want in terms of a plea, indicating we're going to go to trial. Right, right, right.

That's what every defense attorney says. We're going to trial. But guys, take a listen to our Cut 16. Who is this woman? Take a listen to our friends at Crime Online. After graduating high school in 2013,

Lauren Pazienza attended the Fashion Institute of Technology in Manhattan and worked as an events coordinator for a high-end French furniture company. She was seen gallivanting around town, attending swanky parties and art gallery openings before she resigned her position last December. But neighbors at the upscale Astoria condo where she lives with her fiance said she wasn't all smiles at home. Law enforcement sources say that Pazienza was a known nuisance in the Shore Towers and had previously called cops on her neighbors.

A woman who lives in the building says there was always an issue with her and someone in the building. It's always like something with that lady. Another man who also lives in the building described her as definitely not the best tenant. So Dr. Angie Arnold, we've heard about anger management, that she had been a bully since she was in grade school. What does this all mean, Dr. Angie? Nancy, this goes way beyond anger management. Let's just point out, I'm just going to say this, okay? People develop very bad personality disorders starting at infancy. As a matter of fact, we know that it starts in infancy. When you're not treated correctly in infancy, that's how serial killers develop.

Okay? I think that she's going to be a case study for what happens to children. You know what? I really appreciate you going all the way back to her infancy, but let me play a clip of her, the so-called cesspool princess, mocking the death in her adulthood. Listen. stop please i don't want to hear any more of it that's who we're talking about as an adult mocking the deaf aj mayor gustern what is your message to the prosecution and the defense today? I want to thank the prosecution. I understand the pressure that y'all must be experiencing with this case, and I think y'all have done a great job. As for the defense, Lauren in particular, recognize how lucky you are, right? Recognize that you could

have got murder, you could have got hate crime your parents could have gotten in trouble for harboring you all right recognize these things wow you're so much better of a person than me go ahead and and you know from the very beginning she had she had a very good chance of having me potentially be in her corner right if she would have not run if she would have stayed and been like this was me right like i did this like the day she was watching them take her away right i i might i might have been supportive of her instead she's she's pushed the trial back as much as she can. She's done everything in the playbook to draw this out

and get the minimum time possible. I'm not convinced that she recognizes truly what she's even done. We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.