Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - “CESSPOOL PRINCESS” Shoves Voice Teacher, 87, DEAD, SWEETHEART DEAL

Episode Date: October 21, 2023

Barbara Maier Gustern was shoved from behind outside her Chelsea residence. Friends found the well-known and beloved voice coach in the apartment lobby covered in blood. A bicyclist spotted the injured 87-year-old on the street and brought her in. Gustern hit her head during the attack and was taken to a hospital for medical treatment. She ultimately passed away from her injuries after being placed on life support. Police released security footage of the incident, which showed Lauren Pazienza reportedly shoving Gustern before running away. Police, also say the suspect returned to watch, as the victim was carried away by ambulance.  Lauren Pazienza was facing manslaughter charges. Initially, she pleaded not guilty but has now changed her plea to guilty to first-degree manslaughter. Justice Felicia Mennin sentenced Pazienza to 8 years, but then tacked on another 6 months, blasting Pazienza for her “inability to take responsibility for her actions.”  Pazienza had given a probation officer conflicting stories about her involvement in events surrounding the attack, claiming that she simply “ran into” the victim. Joining Nancy Grace Today: AJ Maier Gustern - Grandson of Victim James Shelnutt – Attorney – The Shelnutt Law Firm, P.C.; 27-year Atlanta Metro Area Major Case Detective and Former S.W.A.T. Officer; Twitter: @ShelnuttLawFirm Dr. Angela Arnold – Psychiatrist, Atlanta GA.; Expert in the Treatment of Pregnant/Postpartum Women, Former Assistant Professor of Psychiatry, Obstetrics and Gynecology: Emory University; Former Medical Director of The Psychiatric Ob-Gyn Clinic at Grady Memorial Hospital; Voted My Buckhead’s Best Psychiatric Practice of 2022  Dr. Michael Baden– Former Chief Medical Examiner of New York City and past Co-Director of the New York State Police Medico-Legal Investigations Unit- Author: “American Autopsy” Tony DeStefano – Special Writer, Newsday; Author: “The Deadly Dob: Vito Genovese” and “Mafia Boss;” Twitter: @TonyNewsDay, Instagram: @Tony.Destefano.Newsday See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Let me understand this correctly. A perfectly healthy 27-year-old woman, college degree, great future, born with a silver spoon in her mouth, gets drunk and high and shoves a beloved 87-year-old voice coach standing, minding her own business on the sidewalk, forcefully shoving her to the ground. She hits her head and the voice coach dies. The grandma dies. The so-called Long Island event planner, Lauren Pazienza, says her defense is, I was so drunk and high, I don't know what happened.

Really? If that were a valid defense under the law, every person in the Fulton County jail would be walking free right now. They'd all claim they were drunk and high when they killed somebody. In the last hours, a stunning guilty plea and what many believe to be a sweetheart sentence goes down. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Sirius XM 111. What happened? What? According to police, the so-called cesspool princess, yes, her father digs cesspools and has become a millionaire doing it,

attacks the voice coach. 87 years old. 87 years old. That's like my mom, who's about to turn 92, shoves her so hard. Now, the voice coach lived for a period of time after she succumbed in the hospital, and she said, that's the hardest I've ever been hit in my life, and she's right. She shoves this grandma to the ground, to the sidewalk. She hits her head on the cement and bam, she dies. Now, Pazienza, the heiress to a huge cesspool draining empire, has been at Rikers about a year.

I guess trying to dream up a defense. There's not even a motive for this. But how did the whole thing start? And how did she get a sweetheart deal? Take a listen to our friends at Crime Online. The attorney for New York City's sidewalk shover, Lauren Pazienza, claims the spoiled socialite was a drunk and high mess the night she allegedly pushed legendary Broadway singing coach Barbara Gustern, causing the 87-year-old to fall and later die from her injuries. Pazienza's defense attorney, Arthur Idalla, standing outside the Manhattan criminal courtroom said, quote, she had drugs, maybe two bottles of wine and a ton of marijuana, unquote.

Pazienza is facing charges of manslaughter and assault for the unprovoked attack on Gustern. After Pazienza allegedly shoved her, the 87 year old legend fell and hit her head. She died five days later from those injuries. The 27 year old has been held at Rikers Island, but her lawyer said she's close to agreeing to a plea deal. I don't know about that. I don't know why this case should not go to trial. And this young woman, well, she's not that young. She's 27 years old, old enough to know better. Shouldn't get the max. The victim in this case, Barbara Mayer Gustern, was not just a legend in the singing industry. She's a beloved mother and grandmother.

Joining me right now, in addition to an all-star panel, is her grandson, A.J. A.J. Mayor Guston. A.J., thank you for being with us. Thank you for having me. I hope you had already heard of the defense, and I definitely put that in air quotas. I don't want to be the one to tell you, to break it to you, that the defense in this case is that she, the defendant, the cesspool princess, as she is called, and she gets that name. I think Tony DiStefano is with us from Newsday. Tony, doesn't she get the name cesspool princess? She gets it because her father is a millionaire that digs septic tanks and all sorts of related products and services.

That's correct. He has a business on Long Island, and it's basically a cesspool cleaning and maintenance business. And I suppose he's done pretty well. He's got a nice home in Port Jefferson. So, you know, that's where she gets that moniker. Well, the reality is she has been given everything in life on a silver platter. Advantages, schools, vacations, clothes. Most people could only dream up.

And this is what happens. Back to A.J. Mayor Gustern. This is Barbara Gustern's grandson. AJ, what do you make of the defense that she should somehow get leniency because she had had two bottles of wine, drugs and a quote ton of weed the night that she shoved your grandmother to her death? Sure. I have been following this case quite closely. And I think it's interesting, actually, that her father recently seems to have changed the name of his business. I think the business had their name in it and they've since changed it. But I think the defense is completely ridiculous. You know, I think I think in particular, I saw a mention of Xanax and anybody who's prescribed Xanax should know that when you mix it with alcohol, it leads to aggression.

Right. It's a common thing of Xanax. And I know plenty of other people who have taken, you know, a little bit of wine and weed and not done this. So people do it every day. It's completely ridiculous that she would resort to this. AJ, were you with your grandmother till the end? I was. I was holding her hand right when she passed. I read about that and it just brings to mind being in the hospital room beside my dad when he passed away. And I'll never forget that, just sitting in the room after he had already gone to heaven and wondering why that had to happen. He was the exact same age as your grandma.

And when I hear this woman's lawyer claim she was, quote, overcharged and that she should not be held accountable because she was drunk and high. That's not working for me. With me right now, you know him well, renowned former chief medical examiner in New York City, past co-director for New York State Police Medico Legal Investigations Unit and author of American Autopsy. The famed Dr. Michael Bodden is joining us. Dr. Bodden, thank you for being with us. What idiot would mix drugs, weed, and two bottles of wine?

Well, unfortunately, there are a lot of such idiots around that drink alcohol and use drugs much stronger than weed in our culture right now. But the kind of defense, Arthur Adala is a very good lawyer, but the defense doesn't have much merit. It's not unreasonable if a defense lawyer doesn't have any better defense to say, well, my client, my defendant was drunk. He'd been drinking before he shot his wife and he didn't really know what he's doing. And that may be partially true that if you have a lot of alcohol, you don't quite know what you're doing. But as soon as you start, you know, when you're taking the alcohol, you know, when you're taking the weed and those are conscious decisions, and they have consequences.

And I think for that reason, usually, always in my experience, because I've done a number of testimonies where the defense was the person didn't know what he was doing because he was on amphetamines, he was on drugs, He was most commonly on alcohol. And it never works because the legal concept is it isn't just that you're not in possession of all your faculties. It's because you knew that you should have known that when you started drinking the alcohol in the first place.

The reality is, and let me throw this to James Shelnut joining me, high-profile lawyer out of the Atlanta metro area with a Shelnut law firm, not just renowned lawyer, but was with major case division SWAT. James Shelnut, if the I was drunk defense was legitimate, everybody in the Fulton County jail would be out right now. Everybody would go, yeah, I was drunk. That, I mean, the letter of the law, the black and white letter of the law is voluntary use of drugs or alcohol is not a defense under the law, unless it can be proved the defendant was comatose.

Truly, truly blacked out. But that wouldn't require you to be laying out flat out comatose. This woman was not comatose. She was angry after a fight with her fiance, had a head of steam, was drunk and high and using drugs according to her lawyer. She was anything but comatose. Oh, I agree 100%. Look, that's a pretty high hurdle to prove that you did not have the intent to commit a crime. You know, voluntary intoxication is never a total defense to criminal charges. But voluntary intoxication can be used and can be argued under New York law. I read the law on it this morning. It can be used to negate the element of intent for some crimes. Can I just break that down?

Because that was quite a mouthful. You sound like a law school professor in first year criminal law. Bottom line, it's never a defense. It's not a defense like this was an accident or self-defense, which are both total defenses under the law. If you can prove a case with self-defense or it was an accident, you're out, you walk free, you're acquitted, bam. But if you have diminished capacity, it can reduce a case from murder one to let's just say voluntary manslaughter. Because as James Shelnut is pointing out, it can be argued that you had not complete control of your faculties.

But from what we know that night, she knew exactly what she was doing because she tried to cover her tracks. She hid out afterwards and even lied. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are learning that prior to the random attack on a nearly 90-year-old woman, the so-called cesspool princess, down glass after glass after glass of wine, celebrating 100 days till their wedding, she says she may also have taken a Xanax. Now, according to her defense attorney, he's a well-known defense attorney,

Arthur Idalla. Now, his defense is she had maybe two bottles of wine, drugs, and a ton of marijuana. That's the defense. That makes me dislike her even more. But what more do we know? Take a listen to Ida Siegel at NBC4. A single bouquet of flowers sits on 28th Street tonight where Barbara Gustern was shoved to the ground last week. Today, family announced that the beloved singer and renowned voice coach did not survive. Hearing about it made me feel like I got hit on the head with a hammer. On Barbara's Facebook page, her grandson posted a photo of him holding her hand in the hospital, writing, today at 11.15 a.m., we've lost one of the brightest little flames to ever grace this world. The tributes came pouring in.

And she was so wonderful. She was encouraging. She was firm. She was the perfect teacher. Just that sharp, clever, you know, seasoned person, you know. It's like, she was amazing. Stephen Shanahan owns restaurant and theater Pangea, where Barbara had recently performed and where she had hoped to premiere a new cabaret show.

They sing and they tell stories. It's very heartwarming. And they've done several different shows here. That's who was killed. That's who was killed. That's who was shoved to the sidewalk. And, AJ, isn't it true? Your grandmother, Barbara, did not know Lauren Pazienza at all. They were complete strangers.

They were complete strangers, yeah. I think it's another telling thing that she targeted my grandmother of all people. You know, she didn't go after some 200 pound guy. She went after my my Bob Bob, who God was older than she weighed, you know. So it's it's incomprehensible. You know, you just really struck a nerve with me, AJ. My mother, Elizabeth, who lives with us, she's going to be 92, God willing, in December. And that's about what she weighs, no matter how much I try to feed her.

And the thought of someone pushing my mother to the sidewalk where your, your grandma, hit her head and then died is unimaginable to me. The cruelty involved in that. I want to understand what happened. Guys, take a listen to our cut 11. Our friends at NBC4. This attack happened on March 10th on 28th Street in Chelsea on Gustrin's block. Detectives gave us surveillance from that night. They say that she stayed in the area for about a half an hour and left only after she saw an ambulance arrive. We now know that investigators tracked her movements through the subway when she met up with her fiance all the way until they got to their apartment in Astoria. I'd like to stress, innocent until proven guilty.

You know, if she did do this, then I would like answers, but this woman deserves her day in court. Why? If police know they aren't sharing that tonight, they are telling us that the suspect cursed at the victim. And before she died, the victim told police the push was as hard as she's ever been hit in her life. I feel very vulnerable. Look, I'm older, and I have a cane that just screams,

start up with me because I can't defend myself. I will to the death, but it makes you feel like you have a target on your back. And to show guilty conscience, which can come into evidence, your actions before, during, and after a crime, that evidence is overwhelming. Hiding out, leaving the scene, lying, deleting all of her social media, stashing her cell phone. Well, as a matter of fact, take a listen to our cut 10, our friend Erica Byfield. The police detailing tonight how they say that she tried to evade capture for weeks. They tell us that she quit her job, deleted all of her social media,

got rid of her wedding website. She was supposed to get married in June. They also say that she stashed her cell phone at her aunt's house and then hid out at her parents' house on Long Island. Hey, why did you do it? Midday Tuesday, we finally saw 26-year-old Lauren Pazienza, her hair draped over her face,

refusing to talk just after police charged her with manslaughter, saying that she shoved and killed 87-year-old Barbara Gustern. I think she was a crappy person. I mean, who goes around shoving an old woman? Gustern was a beloved Broadway voice coach. She gave lessons to the greats. Her grandson is still trying to process losing her and the arrest. Yeah, there is a sense of closure. So if somebody is so drunk and high and on drugs that they had no idea what they were doing, why did they hide out? Why did she delete all of her social media? And not only that, even thinking to use her fiance's transit card so her movements could not be traced by police, including ditching her cell phone. Take a listen to our cut 14 from our friends at Inside Edition.

Authorities say Pazienza and her fiance, who works for Microsoft, got into the subway at Penn Station. They transferred at Times Square and then took the train to their apartment in Queens, leaving a digital trail with the fiance's MetroCard. Pazienza allegedly spent the next few hours taking down all her social media and photos, including the website for her June wedding. Police say the day after Gustern died, Pazienza went into hiding at her parents' Long Island home. She stayed there for two weeks. Meanwhile, she must have known that police were on her tail. They released video of her at the crime scene and plastered wanted

posters across the city. On Monday, two people who knew her well called in the tip, detectives went to her parents home her father reportedly told them she wasn't there but wouldn't let them search the house the next day she knew it was over and she turned herself in now claiming she's too drunk high and on drugs to know what she was doing but she sure left a trail a mile wide and tried to cover her tracks. To Tony DiStefano. Tony, thank you for being with us, joining us on Newsday. Tony, what do we know about what really happened the night that Barbara was pushed ultimately to her death? Well, from the police reports, from the criminal complaint and indictment in the case,

we know that they had, she, Lauren and her boyfriend were having drinks in a park. She was drinking a lot, from what I understand. They were told to leave the park by a park worker because it was obviously late. She got angry. Hold on, Tony DiStefano. Got angry about what?

What, she got cut off from booze? Having to leave the park. But, okay, right there, right there. Drugs, two bottles of wine, a quote, ton of marijuana, and angry because she had been kicked out of Chelsea Park. I guess it's a bar or restaurant that was closing when she stomps across the street. And out of sheer anger, I guess, because they wouldn't let her have more booze, she pushes an old lady to her death.

And there's video of her stomping off afterwards. She took many, many actions to hide her whereabouts, to cover her tracks. And then we find out she's said to have watched as the 911 crew, the EMTs, took the frail little old lady away with blood seeping from her head. She just stood there and watched. She spent the next two weeks trying to cover her tracks, quitting her jobs, deleting all of her social media pages, even stashing her cell phone at her aunt's house in Long Island and runs away from her Astoria apartment. Wow. You know, it's

just like Watergate. There's the crime, which is bad enough, but then there's a big, huge cover-up that goes to the highest levels of government all the way to the White House. It caused Nixon to resign. The cover-up. I mean, it's so much indication of guilt. But what happened that night? Who is this woman, the so-called cesspool princess? Dr. Angie, help me because I don't understand the getting angry when you have to stop drinking and go home and go to sleep. Why would that make you angry? Nancy, I think that that shows us the inside workings of this girl's mind. No one ever tells her what to do. And if they do, she never has a consequence. And if they tell her what to do, if they do she never has a consequence and if they tell her what to do

she acts badly like this that's why she got mad because you know what nancy she hasn't lived under the regular rules of other people and that's the part of all of this that we need to look at they keep saying that she's a girl of privilege and all of this. Nancy, she hasn't lived like other people have lived. Hold on. I'm looking at a picture of her right now on a family vacation as a teen. She's got on like a leopard skin micro bikini beside a pool with palm trees in the background. And the caption says, appears to have lived a life of privilege and later glamour in New York City's high society.

What does that mean? What that means is she's been doted upon and she's had everything given to her at times in her life that she shouldn't have had them. Whoa, wait a minute. Is this her standing in front of a Porsche? Look at those pictures I sent you, Jackie. Is that her in front of a Porsche? DeStefano, does she drive a Porsche? I have no idea what she drove. Well, I'm looking right at a picture and she's got car key. It looks like car keys in her hands and she's pointing toward a Porsche. I mean, I think all you really need to look at, right, is she posted a $500,000 bail, which is 10 times more

than the average American family makes in a year to avoid jail for a month. I'd be curious to see how much her family has donated to the soup kitchen that my grandmother went to that she was murdered across the street from. Guys, you're hearing the voice of Barbara's grandson who was with her to the end, who was holding her hand when she went to heaven because of this woman, drunk, high, on drugs, with a silver spoon still clenched between her teeth for no reason, angry because she was cut off drinking in the park, and takes it out on an 87-year-old woman. And you heard AJ say that's about as much as she weighed. She didn't go shove a 300-pound muscle-bound guy that just left the gym. She picked on an 87-year-old, literally little old lady, a little old lady, like my mother. Oh, oh, H-E-L-L, no. This woman does not need a sweetheart plea deal. Hey, Dr. Angie, what were you saying before somebody very rudely cut you off? Oh, it was me. Sorry.

Go ahead. What were you saying? Nancy, people should listen to this story and see and think about what privilege and saving your kids from things and not showing your kids consequences. This is what it leads to. This is the kind of behavior it leads to and i want to point out something else everyone is stating that she was drunk and high how do we know that nancy she might drink like this on a regular basis she might not have been touched fazed by this alcohol she wasn't drunk like like i would be drunk if I had two glasses of wine, okay? She may do this

every day. So let's not say she was drunk because we don't know that. Because as you said, as you pointed out, she knew exactly what to do after this happened, okay? She knew exactly what to do. According to reports, when she was told the park was closing and she had to quit drinking and leave, she became enraged and she charged Barbara Gustern on the street, shoving the 87-year-old lady to the ground and calling your grandmother a bitch. She called your grandmother a bitch. Why? Why did she do that? And then stood there and watched as an ambulance crew took your grandma away with blood seeping from her head. And now, then spending the next two weeks hiding and covering her trail and now she wants leniency

joseph jacqueline joining me former nypd sergeant author of the cold case handbook and the criminal investigative function the guide for new fourth edition. That means it's been published three times before. Joseph, thank you for being with us. This is your backyard. What do you have to say about prosecutors allegedly offering her a sweetheart deal? Well, it's quite interesting because I look at it from the law enforcement perspective that you could have probably added on some charges. I mean, when you choose an 87-year-old, there are statutes in New York City that you could even make a claim at that they could have been even a hate crime. So, you know, she called him, her name. That's something that you have to, you know, look further into. I mean,

listen, prosecutors and defense attorneys do what they do, right? So prosecutors, most of the cases, they plead them out. They rarely go to trial. And I'm sure, I know you have a lawyer on the panel today, and I'm sure he would agree with me on that because you can't put every case in front of a jury. But, you know, you have to look at and focus on what you do have. And the investigators did a great job here, you know, piecing this together with video surveillance, cell phone records.

There might even have been Internet records, right? We know that the phone was found at the aunt's house. We were probably seeing it. They followed her throughout the entire system on the street through video surveillance. So it goes to show you that painstaking detail to what the detectives had to go through was pretty amazing when you think about it. They put together a heck of a case. And my question is, why plead it out? Take this thing to trial.

Get the max on this woman who shoves an 87-year-old grandmother to the ground and call her a bitch. Then stand by and watch her be taken away in an ambulance instead of focusing on her, focusing on hiding for the next two weeks until one of her friends turn her in after spotting her on TV, seeing that subway, seeing the video of her. But I want you to hear more about what happened the night of the incident. Take a listen to our cut 13. Our friends at Inside Edition. We're learning more about the young woman accused of an unspeakable crime, shoving an elderly lady to her death for no reason. Police say six minutes after the unprovoked

attack, the suspect, 26-year-old Lauren Pazienza, walked back to the scene and watched an ambulance take away the elderly woman, 87-year-old Barbara Gustern, a renowned singing coach. The suspect's high-powered lawyer, Arthur Idalla, spoke to reporters after her arraignment and previewed what may be her defense. Whether it was a push or whether it was a shove or whether it was a kick or whether someone tripped. The evidence is not very solid on that at all. Police say the victim remained conscious long enough to tell them her assailant, who she had never met before, crossed the street, then called her the B-word and pushed her as hard as she had ever been hit in her life. Can you imagine calling your mother or your grandmother a bitch? Can you even imagine that? I mean, A.J. Mayor

Gustern, this is Barbara Gustern's grandson who stayed with her till the end. I just lost every chance of me believing anything the defense said is over by saying the word maybe she tripped. B.S. Your grandmother did not trip. Nobody tripped. What were her words to you about how hard she was shoved, A.J.? I actually wasn't present when I heard those words. She got back to her building after the attack and the friends she was rehearsing with met her in the lobby and they were the ones who heard her say that she was called the B word and shoved as hard as she ever was in the ambulance. And then I flew out the very next morning and I didn't see her until I got in the hospital. The last time I talked to her was the Monday of that week. And yeah, I've seen Mr. Idalla say other things, like implying my grandmother had some kind of illness or disability, which is just ridiculous.

At her age, she was still teaching voice all day, going out to shows. I mean, she was comfortable enough to go out at night alone and walk to the show she was on her way to when she was killed. That's how much she loved the city, and that's how much she trusted the city, and that's how capable she was. When she was on her way to see a show, what was she seeing? One of her students' shows.

She was on her way to see one of her students, and she was going to talk with another student about a book she was creating at that show. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Well, in the last hours, we learn a sweetheart deal goes down. She's only sentenced to eight years. You know what she'll serve on that? Probably two. Yeah, probably two years.

What's amazing, just to top it all off, the poisonous icing on the sour cake. She actually said, and her lawyer said, that she was overcharged. What? I mean, people all the way back at school said she was nothing but trouble. The poster child for pure privilege, according to a former classmate, never suffered any consequences enabled by parents who got her out of everything, but she called her own parents stupid and basic. That would break my heart if one of my twins called me stupid and basic. Of course, it may be true, but for them to say it. One acquaintance says that she mocked people,

made fun of fat people, made fun of deaf people, anybody. I mean, this, what a piece of work, but how did she get a sweetheart sentence? Let's review the facts as we know them now. Eight years, man, I'm telling you, she'll be out in two. Let's go to Dr. Michael Bodden, former chief medical examiner in New York. Dr. Bodden, what happened to Barbara? She was fine. Well, not fine, but she was, had her wits about her, was speaking, described to her student what happened, that she was shoved harder than she's ever been shoved in her life. And all of a sudden she seemingly blacked out and then died. Yeah, that's a good question. Firstly, Nancy, I don't think she was shoved. She was struck very hard in the back. And I think there's a difference between somebody shoving somebody in a subway and just being whacked very hard in the back, which is, as AJ said, is what she said happened to her. And then when she fell down and struck her head, remember Liam Neeson's wife? Natasha Richardson.

Right. Natasha Richardson, when she skied down and fell down and they called an ambulance and she said she felt fine. There's one specific type of head injury, a tear of a little artery, middle meningeal artery, that when a fall occurs, it can get ruptured. But the patient doesn't feel anything for as the bleeding comes from it. And many hours later or a day later, the bleeding accumulates to such an extent that it compresses the brain and causes the person. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Dr. Bodden, we're not, except for Dr. Angela Arnold, who's not only an MD, but she's a

psychiatrist as well. You're in like warp speed for all of us. What? First of all, what artery are you talking about? The middle meningeal artery. It's a little, it's a very small artery that goes to the where is it on your head like is it above your ear near your temple you got it that's just from where it is it comes through a little a little opening in the

skull just behind the ear it doesn't heal by itself it keeps bleeding and slowly and that's why the person is OK for a while. And while she described what happened and then it just causes a person to gradually go to sleep and lose consciousness. There's no pain with it. She doesn't have any pain. To Tony DiStefano joining us from Newsday. Tony, the defense is also arguing that the so-called cesspool princess, Lauren Pazienza, has been overcharged. I don't understand why she's not charged with a hate crime with enhanced penalties, because when you commit a violent crime on an elder,

typically in most jurisdictions, you get enhanced or greater sentences behind bars. And they're looking at a sweetheart deal. What's going on up there? Well, I'm wondering, you know, Ardella is trying to basically diminish the intent to cause injury element of first-degree manslaughter. That's why they're arguing about the intoxication, the drug use, etc. Okay, you're actually making my head hurt, Tony. Why is it making your head hurt?

The law presumes, and jump in if I'm wrong, anybody on the panel, the law presumes you intend the natural consequence of your act. You shove literally a little old lady to the pavement and she hits her head. What do you think is going to happen? There is the element of intent, but there also is the element of recklessness in the law. They're different. If she intended to shove Barbara Gustern to cause her injury, that's a conscious decision. If she did so recklessly, that's another element. Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait.

Tony, there's something called the abandoned and malignant heart, which means you are so reckless. For instance, if I got my minivan in it to 90 mph and then drove through a street market and I just happened to plow down four or five people and they died, that's still murder with an abandoned and malignant heart. Where are you, shell nut? You're the lawyer on the panel today. Jump in, man. Help me with Tony DiStefano.

He obviously knows the law better than you and I, so I need you. So look, this is the kicker to me. When she shoves this lady and then calls her a bitch right after that, she's intending, that is clear evidence, she is intending to seriously injure this lady. That shows her intent right there. On her worst day, on the prosecution's worst day, she's guilty of man one under New York Penal Code. She could possibly be charged with a murder charge. To say that she is overcharged is sick. No way.

No way. Take a listen to our Cut 16. Who is this woman? Take a listen to our Cut 16. Who is this woman? Take a listen to our friends at Crime Online. After graduating high school in 2013, Lauren Pazienza attended the Fashion Institute of Technology in Manhattan and worked as an events coordinator for a high-end French furniture company. She was seen gallivanting around town,

attending swanky parties and art gallery openings before she resigned her position last December. But neighbors at the upscale Astoria condo where she lives with her fiance said she wasn't all smiles at home. Law enforcement sources say that Pazienza was a known nuisance in the Shore Towers and had previously called cops on her neighbors. A woman who lives in the building says there was always an issue with her and someone in the building. It's always like something with that lady. Another man who also lives in the building described her as definitely not the best tenant. So Dr. Angie Arnold, we've heard about anger management, that she had been a bully since she was in grade school. What does this all mean, Dr. Angie?

Nancy, this goes way beyond anger management. Let's just point out, I'm just going to say this, okay? People develop very bad personality disorders starting at infancy. As a matter of fact, we know that it starts in infancy when you're not treated correctly in infancy. That's how serial killers develop, okay? I think that she's going to be a case study for what happens to children.

You know what? I really appreciate you going all the way back to her infancy, but let me play a clip of her, the so-called cesspool princess, mocking the death in her adulthood. Listen. Ah! No!

She made me do it. Ah! No! Stop, please. I don't want to hear any more of it. That's who we're talking about. As an adult mocking the deaf. A.J. Mayor Gustern, what is your message? Lauren, in particular, recognize how lucky you are, right? Recognize that you could have got murder. You could have got hate crime.

Your parents could have gotten in trouble for harboring you, all right? Recognize these things. Wow. You're so much better of a person than me. Go ahead. And, you know, from the very beginning, she had a very good chance of having me potentially be in her corner, right? If she would have not run, if she would have stayed and been like, this was me, right? Like, I did this. Like, the day she was watching them take her away, right? I might, I might've been supportive of her. Instead, she's, she's pushed the trial back as much as she can.

She's, she's done everything in the playbook to draw this out and get the minimum time possible. I'm not convinced that she recognizes truly what she's even done. Well, I guess it's a rough cut at justice, but I've got a funny feeling we haven't heard the last of the cesspool princess, Lauren Pazienza. Our prayers with Barbara Mayer Gustern, I'm sure in heaven now, and for her family, who has a life sentence without her. This is an iHeart Podcast.