Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Charles Manson Cult Killer Walks Free: Victims' Kin Distraught

Episode Date: July 14, 2023

Leslie Van Houten was 19 years old when she and other followers of Charles Manson brutally killed Leno and Rosemary LaBianca inside their Los Angeles home. Leno LaBianca had been stabbed 12 times with a knife and seven times with a carving fork. The fork stuck in his abdomen, and a kitchen knife in his throat. The word “war” had also been carved into his abdomen. Mrs. LaBianca had a total of 41 stab wounds on the front and back of her body. Now after 53 years in custody, the convicted killer is free.  Joining Nancy Grace Today: Ava Roosevelt - Friend of victims who had been invited to Sharon Tate and Roman Polanski’s house (and was nearly a victim herself); Former Model and Producer for The Racing Heart Productions; Author: “The Racing Heart” available on Amazon; Contributor to Business Club Magazine Anthony DiMaria - Nephew of Jay Sebring, Director of “Jay Sebring…Cutting to the Truth”  Lis Wiehl - Former Federal Prosecutor and Author: “Hunting Charles Manson;" Twitter: @liswiehl  Dr. Michelle Joy - Forensic, Clinical, and Academic Psychiatrist; Author: “An Illustrated History of the Insanity Defense;" Twitter: @Westphillymorbidart  Karen Smith - Forensic Expert, Host of “Shattered Souls: The Car Barn Murders” Podcast, and Lecturer at the University of Florida Dr. Jan Gorniak - Medical Examiner, Clark County Office of the Coroner/Medical Examiner (Las Vegas, NV); Board Certified Forensic Pathologist Lisa Statman - Author: “Restless Souls: The Sharon Tate Family's Account Of Stardom, The Manson Murders, and a Crusade For Justice;" Twitter: @AlisaStatman   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A cold-blooded mass killer walks free, walking amongst us. And no, the mass killer did not scale the jailhouse walls to escape. There was no elaborate plan to run free. As a matter of fact, she walked out on her own volition and has now turned into somewhat of a media darling. A mass killer has walked free and the governor practically rolled out a red carpet. I'm talking about a Charles Manson cult killer. I'm Nancy Grace.

This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. I want you to take a listen to the Charles Manson cult killer, Leslie Van Houten. Listen. And so then I was supposed to mess her up. And I took the knife and I started stabbing, and I turned into an animal almost. You know, I just completely let out on that woman's back.

And it felt so weird that I blew my mind behind it, if you understand what I mean by blow my mind. I mean, I lost control. I went completely nuts that moment. It was hard to get through. When I thought of stabbing, I didn't really have any idea in my mind um i was supposed to quote mess her up i took the knife and i started stabbing i turned into an animal and more listen it's a real feeling it's not even like cutting a piece of meat. It's much tougher. I had to use both hands and all my pressure, all my strength behind it to get it in. And so once I started, the feeling was so weird that I just kept doing it.

Then I went into the other room and I noticed that there had been things written. On the wall there was pig and rise and helter-skelter. But I know that they were written in blood. It's not like cutting a piece of meat. It's much tougher. I had to use both hands and all my pressure and all my strength behind it to get it in. I just kept doing it. You are hearing the chilling words of a mass killer, Leslie Van Houten, to the shock of many now walking free. She goes on. Listen. and put a hood on her and then wait for him to be confirmed. And at the same time, we'd walk them both off so that they wouldn't feel like they were dying. The woman always had the woman down.

And because he had done it before, it would have been easier for him to have to stab the woman. I understand the text was in the other room. The only key was the woman. All of a sudden she jumped up after having her hands tied with a lamp cord. Rosemary LaBianca's head covered in a pillowcase as she sustained over 40 stab wounds. And this killer is free to the shock of the victim's families. Again, thank you for being with us. Joining me right now, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now.

But first, to Anthony D. Maria, nephew of one of the Manson murder victims, director of J.C. Breen Cutting to the Truth. Anthony, thank you for being with us. What has been the reaction of the victims' families to Leslie Van Houten walking free? Well, I've spoken with numerous of the families and we're in a state of shock. Even though we saw this week, it was announced that this is where the release was headed. It's literally gut-wrenching and mind-numbing nauseating but um all of us

that i've spoken to share that we feel a tremendous sense of betrayal um let down by the justice system and extreme we're extremely disappointed that the governor decided not to file an appeal that did allow the release of les Van Halen. Also joining me in addition to the nephew of one of the Manson murder victims, Ava Roosevelt. She had actually been invited to Sharon Tate and Roman Plansky's home and was an inch away from being murdered that night. She's the author of The Racing Heart, available on Amazon. You can find that at theracingheart.com.

Ava, thank you for being with us. I really paused and thought about whether I should play for you and the listeners the words, in her own words, Leslie Van Houten describing how difficult it was to slice into the victims. But as I've told many, many juries, it's very hard to listen to, but in order to make a true decision or reach a true verdict, you have to know the truth. And that is the truth. What is your response to Leslie Van Houten walking free? It's shocking. It's an egregious, egregious legal faux pas, really. And I think that I just wanted to say to the gentleman speaking before me that Jay Sebring was a very good.

I'm very sorry for your loss. There are no words. I how I feel, really. And if I break down, please forgive me, because I am so sorry for the tragedy, not only of the La Blanca, but also Jay Sebring. Ring, G.B. Folger, Wojtek Sikorski, and of course Sharon. The bigger picture for me here is she's walking. She's going to be supported by this society and received a red carpet like you said.

I wish I had it in my heart to praise i i can't because no amount of lsd at any age would make me commit a crime like as the one she's accused of and convicted of you know what ava you're so right not only only accused of, but convicted of. And at the time that Van Houten was convicted of multiple murders, she was sentenced to the death penalty. Then the state of California reversed the death penalty and her sentence was reduced to not life without parole, but life. Joining me again, as I mentioned, an all-star panel, but now to Lisa Statman, author of Restless Souls, the Sharon Tate Family's Account of Stardom, Manson Murders, and a Crusade for Justice. Lisa, how did this happen? Why did the governor, Gavin Newsom, just lay down and let Leslie Van Houten roll all over him. He said, well, you know what? I don't think the California Supreme Court is going to keep her behind bars. So I just give up. Why? Why give up on what's right? You know, I think it's a couple of things, Nancy. If we look back, history

is literally repeating itself to when Doris Tate became involved in these parole hearings all the way back in 1978 when Van Houten had 900 signatures for her release. And it was right at that moment that Doris Tate, even though Leslie was not convicted of Sharon's murder, she knew that the floodgates were going to open for the rest of them. And what was happening in that moment is that there were no DA representatives. There was a Board of Prison Terms panel that had to do zero research on the commitment offense. Therefore, they never went over it. And as it is now, we had overcrowding in prisons. And so basically what is happening is exactly what happened in 1978.

And sadly, we don't have the political backing that Doris Tate grew and nurtured until it was a victim's right state. And that is slowly, slowly been slipping away. There's also the misconception of the fact that she, you know, at her last parole hearing, they gave her the stipulation, basically, you're qualified for parole because you're part of the, you're elderly, and you've served more than 25 years in prison. That was the only criteria that they gave her to get out. So while I am incredibly disappointed in Gavin Newsom for not fighting the fight, what he is basically saying, I think, is that it is a lost cause in this moment in our state because we are shifting to the criminal's rights as opposed to the victim's rights. Guys, you just heard Lisa Statman mention this woman, Leslie Van Houten, appearing before the pardon and parole boards. But I want you to hear exactly what she's saying in order to get out. I mean,

has anybody on this panel heard? Let me think of a good example. Anybody seen Ocean's Eleven? Do you remember when George Clooney said everything he was supposed to say to the pardon and parole board about how he admits he did it? He's sorry he did it. He'll never do it again. He's a changed man. He was upset because his wife had left him, which is Julia Roberts, who wouldn't be upset. And then he gets out and does an incredible heist. He knew what he had to say.

I'm trying to give you an example. This happens over and over every day. As a matter of fact, take a listen to our Cut 6. This is Sharon Tate's sister, Deborah Tate, speaking to this exact issue on News Nation. She is speaking rehearsed words. Part of the rehabilitation program is they actually teach inmates what to say and how to handle themselves. She has never said she was sorry in a letter or a personal form to the LaBianca family. She will cry phony tears in the courtroom saying she's sorry to the parole board, but not to her victims' families. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Joining me now, former federal prosecutor, author of Hunting Charles Manson, Lise Wheel. Lise, thank you so much for being with us. Lise, is that true? Are inmates coached on what to say when they go up before pardon and parole? Nancy, absolutely. And I'll give you another example. And Anthony was there. That's the Tex Watson parole hearing, the last parole hearing that he had several years ago.

And I was there as the only journalist that was allowed in. I was with the victims. And they were petrified of the fact that because of California law, that Tex Watson could get out for the same reasons that Leslie Van Houten just got out. Can I interject something real quick? This is Lisa Statman. Yes. At Leslie Van Houten's, one of her parole hearings, you know, they have to have a psychiatric evaluation before every hearing. And I would like to give you a quote that speaks to everything that you just said.

This is from a Dr. McDaniel. He said, Ms. Van Houten possesses a degree of personal charm that is very convincing. The obvious question is whether this represents true emotional change and restructuring of her personality or someone who is so smooth in their manipulations that they're barely perceptible. And I'm going to say that that puts a nut on Lassie Van Houten. And to go back to what Ava said is the fact that she has never, and this is a requirement of the Board of Prison Terms for release, she has never taken full responsibility for her actions. She has said, I participated. She has said, I gingerly stabbed Rosemary LaBianca in the back after she was dead. And you know, in those tapes, she says she doesn't know she's dead.

Guys, I want you to hear the words of Leslie Van Houten. Now, this is after Sharon Tate's sister claims, and I agree with her, that Leslie Van Houten is simply reciting words that she's been coached to say in order to get what she wants, and that is release. Why is she released when the victims are still in their coffins?

They're still dead, but she is out enjoying life and as a matter of fact has turned into a media sensation. She's like a little pet or a mascot while they're still dead and their families have somehow moved forward as best they can, limping and hurting, and now this. But this, I'm playing for you, is how Leslie Van Houten really feels in her own words. Take a listen. Hour cut 11. Could you tell us how you feel now about what happened to the Blah Biancas and all the other people that were killed?

Well, I can't really feel sorry, because I did it, and I did it with every intention of it being right. I heard that Mr. T sort of blew his mind when he put on a yippy hairdo looking for the people that did it to his daughter. I feel sorry for those people. How about the people that are dead? Don't you feel sorry for them?

I really don't, to be honest. No. Why don't you feel sorry for the dead people? Well, all it is is a body. What you were doing was right, I really, to be honest, no. Why was she concerned with you? Well, all it is is a body. What you were doing was right, and if you did, why was it right? I thought it was perfectly right. No remorse whatsoever. None. In fact, Van Houten says, I thought it was perfectly right.

Back to Lise Will joining us. Author of Hunting Charles Masson. It took her two years to research and write the book. Now on Amazon. Is it true Van Houten to this day has never expressed remorse? She admits she did it. She goes into gruesome details about how it was so hard to cut human flesh, describes every single aspect of it, we think, but never shows any remorse, no tears, no upset, nothing. No, and you hear it. They were just bodies. Can you imagine saying that

they were just bodies? There's no remorse. It's coaching. Justice Tex Watson was coached and had to look at a list of the victims as he rattled them off. He had to actually look at them because he couldn't remember them. So, you know, these people have both been coached. And the legal standard, this is what's so terrifying to me. The legal standard is whether she's a danger to the community. That's one of the prongs, right? Yes. I think she still is. This person is a cult follower.

And, you know, with Tex Watson and his hearing, it was, I've found Christ and I'm going to be, you know, I'm going to follow Christ. Well, he gets into a church and does whatever the preacher says, you know, the pastor says. You get a, you know, wacko pastor or preacher, same thing. I mean, she gets out. She's a cult member. She's going to find another type of cult, whatever that is in our day-to-day life, and join that and do whatever that cult leader says. I mean, it's just incredible to me that the court system didn't see that,

that she is still a danger to the community. Another danger in the release of Leslie Van Houten is that it releases the floodgates. They're open now. Are all the Manson killers going to be released? And because of this release, can other killers now say, will you let Leslie Van Houten out? Why can't I get out? Because under our jurisprudence, under our Constitution, there is, quote, equal protection under the law. In other words, one person is not to be treated differently than another person in our court system. So if Van Houten can walk free, why not everybody else? That is a serious

threat. Now back to Van Houten herself. Take a listen What's happening? And we kept saying, he's all right. He's all right. And then Katie tried to stab him. And the knife wasn't even bending. So we kept asking. And I can't remember which one of us did it. It could have been me. And we said, you know, text.

Come in. The knife won't bend. But normally she was dead within minutes, you see. She didn't make any decisions like that. Some of those words were hard to hear. She says, I can't remember which one of us did it, stab Rosemary. It could have been me. And we said, Tex, come here. He comes in and the knife is all bent. Mr. LaBianca was dead and Tex wanted to see.

One of the other victims was making gurgling noises, and another Manson cult member told Van Houten to stick the knife in Rosemary's throat, and she said it wouldn't go. And I remember seeing her lying flat in front of the closet, all bloody on her stomach. This is who has just walked free. Speaking from my own personal experience, it's a hurt you never get over to Anthony DeMaria, when you see, when you learn the one that murdered the one you love the most, walk free. It's so debilitating because it feels like there is no justice. I want to hear your thoughts, Anthony. Can I respond to that? But I'd like to

circle back to some very important points that you've made with regard and all the guests here with regard to Leslie Van Houten's words. And what you played is the actual Leslie Van Houten. Now, I've been to dozens of parole hearings, six of Leslie's as a LaBianca family representative. And I think it's important to, I would like to share actual quotes of hers that shows the Leslie Van Houten in the parole room. And this quote, it's, I'm going to quote now in Leslie's words, quote, the autopsy report verifies that there were superficial stab wounds in the lower back of Miss LaBianca. I have consistently testified and taken responsibility for those. Those wounds were post-mortem, end quote. I want to get to this most recent quote where she states,

quote, I know it's my responsibility that I allowed this to happen to me. I take responsibility that I allowed myself to follow him. End quote. These are not the words of a rehabilitated killer. These are the tactical ruminations of a very cunning narcissistic sociopath. And as you clearly revealed, she states in these parole hearings that she yelled out to Watson, we can't kill her,

as if she didn't have the will to kill. But what she actually said was, in fact, we can't kill her. The knife is all bent. So she's actually not the passive participant that she portrays herself to be. At that point, she actually directed Charles Watson to kill her hostage, to finish the kill. is the real Leslie Van Houten. And it is just disgusting to our families that the parole boards don't do their research enough to see through this charade. And it's a very despicable charade. To your other point, when you ask about there is no justice, how does it feel? There's no way for me to express that. It's impossible.

But her crimes obviously profoundly impacted our families. But they also massively impacted the country at large. And sadly, I feel that with regard to CDCR and some of the institutions, how our families feel are an afterthought. The victims are collateral damage. But now, the impact that this release will have, setting a very dangerous, pernicious precedent i think it's it's a very important question to ask how does america feel about the release of leslie bentham crime stories with nancy grace Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Guys, we were talking about the release of a mass killer, which is more than one body.

I always question why Leslie Van Houten was not charged with the Sharon Tate murders as well. She was living with Manson and the Manson family at the time of the Tate murders. Tate heavily pregnant, begging for her life or her unborn child's life when she was brutally murdered. Van Houten was there when that was planned. In fact, she was angry, according to co-defendants, that she was not allowed to ride along. And back to Lee's will, it's akin to a bank robbery where you and I and Jackie planned the bank robbery, planned the whole heist. But you and I are the ones that go in the bank and I'm the one that shoots everybody. Jackie is just as culpable as we are. And I've never understood why

Van Houten was not charged with the Tate murders as well. I think she could have been, absolutely, because as you say, it's felony murder, right? Even if you're not actually there, you were part of the planning. Charles Manson wasn't actually there. So that tells you something. But I think the legal reason is that her lawyers argued she didn't take a substantial step, which of course is the standard for conspiracy. In the last hours, Leslie Van Houten has walked free from behind prison walls after murdering the LaBiancas and helping to plan the Sharon Tate murders. I want to go to Dr. Jan Gorniak, renowned medical examiner, joining us out of Clark County.

That's Vegas. Dr. Gorniak, it's a real honor to have you on with us. Thank you for being with us. We keep hearing Van Houten refer to the fact that Rosemary was already dead when she, Van Hout Manhattan, stabbed Rosemary. I don't believe that that's true. In a post-mortem autopsy, how can you tell whether wounds were sustained post-mortem after death? So when I do an autopsy, one of our jobs is to obviously determine injuries,

whether they're anti-mortem before death or a post-mortem after death. So in order to determine that, we have to look at characteristics of the wounds. So when a wound is sustained post-mortem after death, there is no swelling of the tissue. There is no reddinging of the tissue. So what we call erythema. So, and sometimes it looks dry and there might be minimal hemorrhage within the tissue. Because in order for, if you're alive, when an injury is sustained, your body's going to react to it. That's like bumping your leg against the wall or door. The body's going to react to it and you're going to see a bruise or if you fall and cut yourself, it's going to be swollen, it's going

to be red. But when a wound is sustained post-mortem, that reaction doesn't happen. So it's essentially, quote unquote, a clean wound. No reddening, no blood swelling, no obvious bleeding. Correct. Dr. Gorniak, could you describe what happened to Rosemary and Leno-LaBianca? So I was reading, going back about the multiple stab wounds, it's just, and defense wounds. So when you get a defense wound, that means that you're grabbing for the knife, and then you get defense wounds on your hand. Those are, for me, believe it or not, are like the worst injuries that I see. You know, even as a pathologist, I get the willies sometimes, and that's one of the things that gives me the willies when I see the defensive wounds, especially on the hands. And it's just you're going to bleed out a lot of hemorrhage, but it's not, unfortunately, you know, it's sad to think about, it's not a quick death.

So you're getting stabbed multiple times. You're going to feel that. You're going to feel that. You're going to be moving. And then what happens is you slowly bleed out. You hemorrhage. So it's not a quick death, unfortunately. And you go into shock and then you die. So the worst cases that I do are multiple stab wound cases.

And it was interesting to hear the description of stabbing somebody. I've never heard somebody who stabbed somebody else describe it like that. And ironically, I'm getting ready to teach a course on Sunday on sharp force injuries. And everybody asks, well, how much force does it take to you know stab somebody and actually the skin is the toughest part to get through and so to hear her compare it to it's not like cutting meat that's just i've never heard that it's disgusting it is but it but she you know in that description because like i did all i I say is the skin is the toughest part of the body to get through. And then once you get past the skin, you know, depending on the sharpness of the knife, the internal organs are easily punctured. But to hear it that way where I had to use both hands and things, I mean, that gave me a whole new appreciation when I see victims with multiple stab wounds.

What those victims endured, Dr. Gorniak, is unthinkable. Rosemary LaBianca, wife, mother, she worked alongside her husband. They were in charge of grocery store change, owned them, had worked their whole life. Rosemary ends up dead, stabbed over 40 times with a pillowcase over her head, strangled with a lamp cord, seeing her husband murdered. Guys, take a listen to Hour Cut 9. If you think that Leslie Van Houten didn't know what she was doing, listen to this. And by the way, mass murder certainly did not diminish her appetite. Listen. I said, what about the fingerprints? I left them on the lampshade.

And Katie had me a towel and said, go wipe them off off with this so I went and I just about did the whole bedroom all over and everything I had touched and we did the kitchen and just sort of all over just a whole fingerprint thing because we hadn't worn any gloves and then Katie and Tex when I came out of the bathroom then we're taking a shower. And then after that, we were hungry, and so we went and we took some cheese and milk out of the refrigerator, and we took it with us. They went and raided the fridge like they're having a sleepover? They went back and erased all of their fingerprints that they could think of. One even taking a shower, getting rid of evidence in the victim's home

and then raiding their fridge for a midnight feast. It's almost more than I can take in. Joining me right now is a forensic expert, host of Shattered Souls, The Carr Barn Murders, lecturerurer University Florida, Karen Smith. Karen, you and I have discussed many cases where the perp, the killer, is so unfazed by murder, they go drive-thru McDonald's or Burger King. Here, they actually go raid the dead victim's fridge while the victims are lying there dead. They go eat the food, take the food out of the fridge. Right. That speaks to awareness.

It speaks to understanding of what they've done. Not only did they raid the refrigerator, take cheese and milk. Leslie Van Houten admitted that she went into Rosemary LaBianca's closet and took her clothes. They also played with the dog. They wiped down the fingerprints from the crime scene. This is not the actions of somebody who was hypnotized or under the spell of somebody else and did what they said. She knew exactly what she was doing. And Nancy, we have heard a lot of information from a lot of really incredible people today that have piecemealed this together. But if I could, I just want to do a quick walkthrough of this crime scene because of how horrific it really was. You have words in blood scrawled on the wall. You have two victims on the floor. A crime scene like this would take us multiple days today.

We know LaBianca. His hands were bound behind his back with a leather cord. He was helpless. He was stabbed 12 times. Then an additional seven times with a carving fork. That fork was left in his abdomen. The knife was left in his neck, embedded past the hilt. That was discovered by the medical

examiner's office the investigators didn't see it because a pillowcase was over his head and an electrical cord was wrapped around his neck in his mouth he also had a sofa cushion over his face the word war had been carved into his abdomen and Lino la bianca not only exsanguinated blood to them he aspirated on his own vomit before before he died Rosemary la bianca not only exsanguinated blood to them he aspirated on his own vomit before uh before he died rosemary la bianca she was stabbed 41 times to both the front of her body and the back so she was defenseless and according to the police reports she attempted to crawl away she also had a pillowcase over her head a lamp cord wrapped around her neck one of the stab

wounds nearly severed her spinal cord. And as Rosemary attempted to get away, Leslie Van Houten admitted that she and Patricia Krenwinkel called out to text Watson. He was busy in the living room stabbing Lino. Van Houten told Watson that she couldn't get the knife to go into her body. And then she said she had to use her full body weight, all of her pressure to get that knife to go in. And she turned into an animal during the murder. Now, later on during interviews,

she said that she very gingerly stabbed Rosemary. Now, I don't know how you do that when the five inch knife went into her body multiple times all the way to the hilt, and her contention that Rosemary LaBianca was dead when she plunged the knife into her body over and over and over and over again, that is unsubstantiated. And I think the medical examiner will agree with me because there's no way to tell which stab wound Van Houten inflicted and in what order they were done. There's no evidence regarding the exact moment that Rosemary LaBianca died. So that is a moot point. And it's just one more excuse by Leslie Van Houten to not take responsibility for the vicious and cruel murders of innocent people. To Ava Roosevelt, friends of victims over at Sharon Tate's and Roland Polanski's home had been invited over herself. When you look back, Ava Roosevelt,

and realize how close you came to being murdered by the Manson family cult members, what do you think? Well, there is, for me right now, there is a bigger picture here in all of this, which is, will the release of this murder open the floodgates to release of Patricia Krenwinkel and Tex Watson? Because these two, I believe if I'm correct, are two remaining members of the Watson family who were directly involved in murdering my friends, my dear friends, Sharon, Gibby, Wojtek.

I mean, we went a long way. So what is going to happen to these people? Are they going to wiggle out and start a life of freedom, basically leaving all of us and the nation, the innocents then, without any closure. So I ask all of you, what do you think will happen as an aftermath of what happened to Leslie? Anthony DiMaria joining us, Jay Sebring's nephew, director of Jay Sebring,

cutting to the truth. Anthony, we have been told that the Tate family is so upset, so emotionally torn up, they can't even speak to the release of Van Houten. When you hear the description of what happened to the victims, how do you respond? You know, I have the honor and privilege to know many of the family members, and I've been in contact with many of them, all of them that I've met through the parole hearings. And I'd be remiss if I didn't state that I've talked to

many of the LaBianca family and many of them are so devastated that it's paralyzing and others are expressing themselves but uh i feel that they're here with us in this conversation um and certainly the tate family the fracoski family the parent family shea hinman um folger uh i forgive me if i forget any or if I omit any other, but, you know, there is outrage and there is devastation. But there is also love. And we hold on to that love for our family members. And I am grateful for the opportunity to express these thoughts, as difficult as they are.

Well, you have to keep doing it, Anthony, because you and a few others are the only ones left that actually are speaking for the crime victims because clearly pardon and parole is not, the governor is not. Guys, I want you to hear our cut 12. The words of Leslie Van Houten. Do you really want to die?

I don't want to, and I don't not want to. In other words, I'd love to get out of this. I'd love to go back on the street. Leslie, if you could turn the clock back and go back that night that you asked Charlie to go along with him to kill the Lombayancas, although you didn't know who was going to be killed. Would you do it again? Yes, I would. I can't feel sorry for what I've done. And like I say, I have no control. How has this happened?

Will Newsom now be re-elected? What does this mean for other crime victims' families? We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast. Goodbye, friend.