Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Charlie Kirk Accused Assassin Calls for Entire Prosecutor's Office Recusal

Episode Date: May 16, 2026

Shots ran out as Charlie Kirk sat on stage at a Utah Valley University event. The conservative activist reportedly hit near his neck and killed. According to reports, the shot was fired from the roof of a campus building about 200 yards away.  Social Video posts show Kirk in a familiar pose,  speaking into a handheld microphone, sitting under a white tent emblazoned with the slogans “The American Comeback” and “Prove Me Wrong.”  The single shot booms and  Kirk  reaches up with his right hand. Blood gush from underneath.  Now the accused shooter, Tyler Robinson’s defense team has called for the entire Utah County prosecutor’s office to be recused. The defense’s claims a potential conflict of interest as a lead prosecutor’s child was at the event where Kirk was assassinated. That, according to the defense, tainted the office’s decisions. A judge has ruled the teen's attendance “did not materially influence” prosecutors’ actions.        Joining Nancy Grace today: Franz Borghardt - Criminal Defense Attorney, Founder of Borghardt Law Firm, Former Prosecutor, and Adjust Professor at Louisiana State University Teaching Criminal Litigation; Instagram and Facebook: BorghardtLawFirm Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Author: "Deal Breaker: When to work on a relationship and when to walk away,” and featured in hit show: "Paris in Love" on Peacock; Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, Twitter: @DrBethanyLive Koa Lorimor - Former Army Sniper Chris McDonough - Director at the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective (worked over 300 homicides in 25-year career), Trained the First Native American Homicide Task Force; Host of YouTube Channel, "The Interview Room"  Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author of "Blood Beneath My Feet," and Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" X @JoScottForensic Victoria Churchill - U.S. Political Reporter for DailyMail.com; Instagram & Facebook: VictoriaSnitsarChurchill, Dan Murphy  - Former NYPD Detective-Sergeant,  Co-Host of "Gold Shields" Podcast, Author: “Workplace Safety: Establishing an Effective Violence Prevention Program" Sydney Sumner - 'Crime Stories'  Investigative Reporter Dave Mack -'Crime Stories'  Investigative Reporter See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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No hassle, no judgment. Borrow better with FIG. Visit fig.ca. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Charlie Kirk's alleged killer, Tyler Robinson, the so-called assassin demands the top prosecutor be thrown off his case. I had that happen to me many, many times in court. Move number one, just as I was about to go to trial, all that prep work, the defense would jump up with a motion to have me thrown off the case for various reasons.

It never worked. It was just another problem. to deal with when you need to focus on your case. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. That's right. You heard me.

Charlie Kirk's alleged assassin Tyler Robinson demands the top prosecutor in his case be thrown off. A Utah judge hearing the allegations against the prosecutor, Judge Tony Graff, first determined the Utah County Attorney Jeffrey Gray's decision to pursue the death penalty was not influenced by the daughter of another prosecutor within the office. That daughter of a coworker who was Chad Gruniter was present when Charlie Kirk was gunned down last September 10. That had been thrown at Judge Graff that the death penalty should be

taken off the table because it was influenced by the daughter of the prosecutor's co-worker. Well, that didn't work. You can see the defense is trying everything. Now, the alleged killer once the prosecutor thrown off the case. Nancy Robinson's request for the entire Utah County prosecutor's office to be recused from his case has been denied. The defense claims a potential conflict of interest has been mishandled. A lead prosecutor's child was at the where Charlie Kirk was assassinated, and that, according to the defense, tainted the office's decisions. But a judge has ruled the child's attendance did not materially influence prosecutors' actions. Deputy attorney Chad Grunender's 18-year-old daughter is a student

at Utah Valley University, where the assassination took place. He testified his child attended the Turning Point USA event where Kirk was shot last year. The teen did not see the federal movement or witness anybody in the crowd who may have been a suspect, according to prosecutors. Utah County Attorney Jeffrey Gray appointed Grunender as one of the prosecuting attorneys. He told the court the child's presence was completely irrelevant to the decisions made in the case. Utah District Court Judge Tony Graff agreed. Robinson has not yet interpleased for the charges he's facing, including aggravated murder, fell in the use of a firearm, obstruction of justice, and witness tampering,

along with several victim targeting enhancements, and an aggravated factor of having committed a violent offense in the presence of a child. His preliminary hearing has been moved to July. I remember the whole thing like it happened last night. The lone shooter, the assassin that gunned down 31-year-old Charlie Kirk. With a high degree of certainty, we have him. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. We got him. A massive manhunt.

The suspect was taken into custody at 10 p.m. local time. The assassin who gunned down a loving father of two, a husband. The suspect was apprehended in historic time period. In custody. In custody. The assassin who guns down a father of two. He is observed on video in a plain maroon t-shirt, light-colored shorts, a black hat with a white logo, and light colored shoes.

Arriving on UVU campus in a great Dodge Challenger at approximately 829 a.m. Tyler Robinson, Robinson, had become more political in recent years. A second unfired casing read, Oh, Bella Chow, Bella Chow, Bella Chow, Chow, and a third

unfired casing red. If you read this, you are gay. His wife and two little children who will grow up without daddy. This is a very, very sad day for, again, for our country. And I do know this is going to be a federal case, and there's many of us believe that Charlie was targeted because of this political ideology.

Yeah. What's going to happen to this guy? Well, I hope he was going to be found guilty, I would imagine, and I hope he gets a death penalty. On the evening of September 11th, a family member of Tyler Robinson reached out to a family friend who contacted the Washington County Sheriff's Office with information. that Robinson had confessed to them or implied that he had committed the incident. This information was relayed to the Utah County Sheriff's Office

and seen investigators at Utah Valley University. This information was also conveyed to the FBI. Investigators reviewed additional video footage from UVU surveillance and identified Robinson arriving on UVU campus in a grade Dodge Challenger at approximately 829 a.m. on September 10th. in which he is observed on video in a plain maroon t-shirt, light-colored shorts, a black hat with a white logo, and light-colored shoes.

When encountered in person by investigators in Washington County on September 12th, in the early morning hours, Robinson was observed in consistent clothing with those surveillance images. Investigators interviewed a family member of Robinson who stated that Robinson had become more political in recent years.

The family member referenced a recent incident, in which Robinson came to dinner prior to September 10th, and in the conversation with another family member, Robinson mentioned Charlie Kirk was coming to UVU. They talked about why they didn't like him and the viewpoints that he had. The family member also stated Kirk was full of hate and spreading hate. The family member also confirmed Robinson had a gray Dodge Challenger. Investigators identified an individual as the roommate of Robinson.

Investigators interviewed that roommate who stated that his roommate, referring to Robinson, made a joke on Discord. Investigators asked if he would show them the messages on Discord. He opened it and showed several messages to investigators and allowed investigators to take photos of the screen as each message was shown by Robinson's roommate. These photos consisted of various messages, including content of messages between the phone contact name Tyler with an emoji icon and Robinson's roommate. Vincent's roommate's device. The content of these messages included messages affiliated with the contact Tyler, stating a need to retrieve a rifle from a drop point, leaving the rifle in a bush, messages related to visually watching the area where a rifle was left,

and a message referring to having left the rifle wrapped in a towel. The messages also refer to engraving bullets, and a mention of a scope and the rifle being unique. Messages from the contact Tyler also mentioned that he had changed outfits. I know there has been speculation as well as to the writing on those casings, those bullet casings, and I believe we have that as well. And I will share that with you now. So the area north of campus drive road where the suspect crossed over, you saw some of that in the video that we released last night, consists of a grassy area with trees on the edge of the UVU campus.

Investigators discovered a bolt action rifle wrapped in a dark colored towel. The rifle was determined to be a Mouser model 98, 30-06 caliber bolt-action rifle. The rifle had a scope mounted on top of it. Investigators noted inscriptions that had been engraved. raved on casings found with the rifle. Inscriptions on a fired casing read, notices bulges, capital O-W-O, what's this question mark?

Inscriptions on the three unfired casings read, hey, fascist, exclamation point, catch exclamation point. Up arrow symbol, right arrow, and a symbol, and three down arrow symbols. A second unfired casing read, oh Bella Chow, Bella Chow, Bella Chow, Chow, and a third unfired casing red. If you read this, you are gay, LMAO.

A little bit of the timeline. Charlie was shot at 1223 p.m. on Wednesday. The first FBI agents arrived on scene in 16 minutes with chiefs of police at 1239 and secured the scene. The FBI immediately launched fixed-wing assets. We utilize these assets to transport personnel, specialty technicians, hostage rescue teams. We also utilize these assets to go back and forth from the East Coast and here in Utah to transport forensic evidence and other evidence that will be analyzed and is being analyzed at our FBI laboratories in Quantico and other laboratories, including the ATF. At my direction, the FBI released the first set of FBI photos of the suspect at 10 a.m., local time on 9-11.

Then, shortly thereafter, the FBI reward of $100,000 was released at 10.45 a.m. local. Myself and Deputy Director Bongino arrived on the scene at approximately 5.30 p.m. on 9-11. The governor led a press conference last night at approximately 8 p.m. Where am I direction, the FBI released a never-before-seen video of the suspect. We also released new images to the public of the suspect. suspect. And just last night, the suspect was taken into custody at 10 p.m. local time. In less than 36 hours, 33 to be precise, thanks to the full weight of the federal government and leading out with the partners here in the state of Utah and Governor Cox,

the suspect was apprehended in historic time period. Joining us today, Dan Murphy, former NYPD Detective Sergeant co-host of Gold Shields podcast, Joseph Scott Morgan, professor at Jacksonville State University, and co-host of bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. As we begin today, shocking announcement, we already have a suspect in custody, Tyler Robinson, a 22-year-old Utah resident, and apparently he was turned in or convinced to turn himself in by his father, who is now being called the father of justice, Matt Robinson. Straight out to you, Joseph Scott Morgan. Ever since the assassination of Charlie Kirk, there has been widespread speculation as to everything that took place that day, from the shot to security to what actually transpired. I want to start with the shot. We have a man in custody.

So let's start with him on the roof allegedly shooting Charlie Kirk from at least 200 yards. Is that still what we believe? Yeah, yeah, according to the reports that we're hearing, it sounds reasonable. One of the interesting images that has emerged from the inspection of that alleged sniper's nest, if we can call it that, is that surface on the roof is actually a gravel surface. And there's an image that has been released of evidence markers around an area that is literally impressed. into that gravel surface that gives you the impression when you see it that someone had laid there for a protracted period of time. Now, okay, on the top of a roof, oftentimes we have tar and other things like that.

Would that gravel, making it a kind of uneven surface, would that create a problem for somebody that is laying down to get the shot? I wouldn't necessarily think so, particularly if they had any knowledge of how, of the weapons system that they're actually using. And we don't know all of the details yet. He may have brought something along to brace himself with. Keep in mind, this kid actually had a backpack with him. And in the military, I know from personal experience, that you're trained to use things, particularly if you're in a prone position that can brace your position and that you can, that can steady, can steady your sight picture. It wouldn't surprise me if that, if the backpack

that he had up there with him may have been used for that purpose. Okay. Dan Murphy, as a former detective sergeant, you're looking at this from solving the crime. What is the first step from the moment you learn that Charlie Kirk has been shot? You don't know his condition. All you know is we have a man shot. What is the first thing you do when you start trying to solve the crime? First, you have to preserve the scene. The crime scene is of paramount importance because that going to live with you for the remainder of this case what you grab what you don't grab is vital a second is witnesses eyewitnesses grabbing any and everybody

that's on the scene that may have seen something today in today's world we want to see cell phone coverage cameras everyone that was there who has a cell phone that shot any footage bring it in it's all potential evidence we want to look around at cameras surveillance cameras that are part of the campus we want to look at everything we can look at who is parked in the parking lot This is a tremendous job that needs to be done by a lot of people, but it's vital that those steps begin immediately. You know, we did find out a number of things. As we're doing this program, this is still a breaking news story. It is evolving. We started the day with President Donald Trump on Fox News announcing that 99% of sure we had the shooter in custody, the alleged shooter.

one of the things that we've been trying to figure out is who is this person who would have shot Charlie Kirk you know he founded turning point back in 2012 and he has been the subject of I don't know how to actually phrase this but you know he's outspoken conservative Christian man and he's been labeled a hater by those on the left just the way we live today but as you're trying to figure out who is the shooter We saw a guy that looked like to be 60 years old in short pants, you know, balding. We saw him in custody briefly by police because he's, you know, talking about I'd do it again. We also had rumors that it was a 30-year-old man, that it was not a college student.

And what turns out to be the shooter or the alleged shooter is actually 22 years old. Is this something that either of you would expect as we move forward? Would you have started by thinking this is a college-age person? Or would you have thought somebody older would have been involved in the shooting? I would say you never, never want to theorize as to who your suspect is until your evidence points you there. That's a capital mistake to make, and people do it all the time. And the media loves to jump because we want to assign an identity to somebody. But the fact of the matter is, you go with the evidence lead you.

And if it turns out to be somebody who's older or younger, that's fine. Worry about what narrative it can fit later. But you look for the truth. You follow the evidence. Absolutely. Okay, now, Joseph Scott Morgan, we saw the shot. We saw Charlie Kirk sitting under the tent. I want to point something out, you know, before the shooting took place,

there were about 3,000 paid that attended the event. Charlie Kirk was under a tent, you know, that he was sitting under, but there were people fairly close to him right up front. Then there was a walkway area in the grass, probably 12 feet, I'm guessing, and then more people situated directly behind that. And before the event actually got started, before he actually was giving a speech, he was engaging with the audience. He was throwing hats and other things to the audience, getting them kind of excited and pumped up before he spoke. And then before he grabbed the mic to give his speech, he actually was doing Q&A with the audience and had that two microphones set up and had people going to either mic so they could actually begin this speech by talking about things, by actually getting into a discussion.

So he's a minute and a half into this as he's sitting down in the tent before he starts his speech. He's still answering questions from the crowd when the shot rang out. I say we all saw it. Most of us have seen the video because it was released on social media within seconds. It wasn't like the Zapruder film where we waited, you know, where we didn't have anything for hours and then years later. This was immediate. And there are probably plenty of people who got shot. of that assassination that still have not posted it online.

Yeah, this ain't Dallas, 1963. You know, you're going to have multiple POVs here because, let's face it, like him or hate him, he's a media figure. He is, he was magnetic. And people want those kinds of images. It's the world that we live in today. So, you know, 180 degrees probably, 360 degrees. In his orbit there, there were people videotaping. One of the things that I think that

those that are going to be canvassing the area and talking to folks, they're going to want to collect those images, particularly those, I think, one of the more intriguing images that you would want is something that is more to Charlie's rear, looking back to where the shooter is. I think that we've had one of those or two of those that have leaked out. Trust me, there's more. And, you know, that's not even counting like CCTV. I work at a university. Guys, I got to tell you, I can literally step out of the door of my building here at Jack State onto the quad. And immediately, I've got cameras all around me that are observing me.

If you're going to try to pull something like this off and try to remain anonymous, bad choice. because there is so much video evidence on a campus that they can pull it in seconds. Dollars to donuts, I guarantee you that the state police, probably the locals, and certainly the feds, they descended on the security area there that controls all of the cameras. They have that data, trust me. Not to mention everything else that's peripheral to that. Parking lots, we've heard a lot about ring cams. Oh, wow, yeah.

All of the cases that we cover with Nancy, it seems like in the last two years, ring cams come into play, don't they? They're everywhere. You know, as well. And it's just that the area where this happened on a university campus is so tightly monitored. And a lot of it has to do with student safety. Yeah, bad choice, bad area to select if you're trying to remain anonymous. Now, Dan Hampton, background in New York, as a detective.

Sergeant, look, when we started breaking this story down beyond the shooting, because that was just shocking. And I want to come back to that in just a minute, Joe, about what the shooting actually did. But first, we've got a shooter that the, I'm going to say the police were leaking information. It looked like they were chumming the water. They were baiting with pictures and things like that to try to get information from the public. Is that a common thing to expect it? Do police really use the media in that way, Dan? Absolutely. It can be your best friend. It could be your worst enemy, but more often they're your best friend.

When you distribute pictures to the media and the public sees it, you have a far increased chance of getting your person identified. In a case like this, it was a smart move to do. And we see that his alleged discussion with his family, where he put himself at the scene, having done it, at least that's what we're told, that may have come as a result of all the pressure involved, because he couldn't hide it from them. He's sitting on the news. That's me. He had to give it up. I think it was a smart move and it's done commonly. And one of the things we saw, Fox had video of police taking down a camera over a garage, which I found fascinating because we had neighbors from the neighborhood when he allegedly, he shoots and then he's off the building. And there is actually video showing him jumping. Then we see him limping as he's walking through backyards because they were getting calls from residents saying, hey, I got video of a guy running. through the backyards. So I'm going to assume that he hurt himself jumping off the building as far as he had to jump and he's limping through the backyards. He ditched the bolt action rifle on his escape route.

Is that something that you would expect? Did he drop it? Why do you think we have that gun? Well, he's got to distance that weapon from himself personally. He can't be found with that weapon on him. It's too incriminating. So he didn't want to leave it up on the roof. He took it with him and he figured he would gain some time by ditching it. Very common, guns are thrown in lakes, rivers, off bridges, all the time, just to get rid of the evidence as much as possible. He obviously did it in a very haphazard way. This is not a career, criminal, or a professional assassin.

This is a young kid who had the intention of doing this, but didn't really think out the steps afterwards as much as he thought he would. As far as jumping off the roof is concerned, one of the things I would do. As soon as I saw any video of footage of that, you check all area hospitals and clinics, that somebody come in with a broken ankle, hurt leg. That's going to be one of your investigative. It's in the Ford Theater jumping from the balcony, you know, breaks his leg. So now we've got a suspect in custody, as this is a breaking story.

The man who allegedly shot Charlie Kirk, 22-year-old Utah resident Tyler Robinson. And by the way, guys, this guy's not an idiot. Tyler Robinson actually had an academic scholarship to Logan, which is also a college in Utah. He attended the college campus where he was, but only for one semester. He's one of these really smart guys, but at 22 has not achieved a whole lot. And I think that'll be something that we get Bethany on to talk about. But there were multiple photos taken of him that have been released. We've got him in custody, turning himself in.

We found out that he there, I keep saying he did it, but allegedly somebody wrote on the shell casings. A number of different inscriptions. Utah Governor Spencer Cox actually listed out some of the things that were written. On one of the shell casings, hey, fascist, catch. I would encourage people to actually go look up your definitions of what a fascist is and free speech and those wonderful things we experience here in the United States of America and realize that a lot of us grew up, hey,

just do your own thing, you know, live and let you live. We're not at that point anymore. Now we're at this point where if you disagree with what I say, I deserve to die. And that's not us. That's not who we are. We've got to stop this. Charlie Kirk spoke from the heart. He spoke for years trying to get people to think deeper.

And to be honest with you, it was that that led to his death. People don't want him to share what he thinks because they don't want him. to share what he thinks because they don't like it. And I'm telling you, we've got to actually get some leaders that will talk about this openly and honestly instead of burying it. Now, other words written on these shell casings, guys, oh, Bella, chow, Bella, chow, Bella, chow, chow. That's from an Italian song dedicated to the resistance during World War II. Another one was if you, this is actually meant as a joke, okay, if you read this, you are, gay LMAO.

Another one notices, bulges, O-W-O, what's this? Granted, I'm old and crazy, get off my lawn guy. I don't know what O-W-O means, but it's part of an internet meme that circulated, I guess, seven years ago or so. But these things written on shell casings, is that also something that is common in a shooting of this nature? I have not seen it. I know in high-profile cases recently,

it seems to be a trend, but I have not seen it in my career. Now, Joe, back to the shooting. When Charlie Kirk was shot, because a lot of us did see it before it was blurred, I'm still shocked, amazed and saddened that we saw this because normally we don't.

Normally, as it is now, if you actually find a version of it online, it's going to be blurred. What did you see in terms of the shot hitting Charlie Kirk? Well, from my perspective when I was watching, and I watched one that was sent to me that was kind of enhanced a bit and the shot was tighter, these physiological responses that you see as he has struck. And part of it also, I think that many people that follow true crime and that hear us talk, about these sorts of things, they don't appreciate the horror many times that's involved in an

event like this, how shocking it is, not obviously, I mean obviously to the victim, but also those that are surrounding him. In this particular case, if you go to the left, to the left of the midline of the neck, this is where literally the entrance is right up above the collar line. It appeared to me. You've got just a copious amount. of blood that immediately begins to issue forth from him. It's been speculated, and I include myself in that group, that there's high probability that it nicked, probably the juggler, as well as perhaps the carotid, given the amount of blood. Remember, these are blood supplies and returns for the brain, and the brain is the most vascular organ in the body. It requires a lot.

lot to function. Would Charlie Kirk have been aware of what was going on after that shot? That's hard to say. That's almost an unanswerable question. I do know this, that if you have seen this image, he draws. You can see him drawing his right hand up and the thumb appears to be clutched. This is a neuromuscular response to neurotrauma. You'll see it with actually the brain, the brain stem, as well as the spinal cord. All you've got to do is watch a football game. And you'll see people that get their bell rung, they'll fall to the ground. And it almost looks like a seizure.

And then, of course, he topples over to his left and begins to bleed out there. I think there's a high probability that, um, death was probably pretty quick at this point in time. I talked to Nancy the other day and I said that even if you'd had a group of vascular surgeons standing right there with him, this is so traumatic that I don't, I think that it probably would have been unsurvivable based upon what I've seen over the years in the morgues and, you know, in its scenes and that sort of thing. And please remember again, as we talk about the assassination of Charlie Cook,

Kirk. This is a father of two. A little girl, little boy, wife Erica. This is not us. This is not the best of us. We've got to do more to stop this from happening. We can't have an exchange of ideas, friends, and disagree and move forward with this is just not us. So Dan, I want to go back to you for a minute. As the investigation starts getting now, it doesn't stop after the arrest. This is like the beginning part of the investigation, isn't it? Yeah, there's so much work going on behind the scenes right now and has been going on since the initial event. Search warrants of being conducted at his residence in his car at many places. The actual owner of the weapon is probably no doubt sitting in the police station right now being interviewed as to how that weapon got

into this guy's hands if he's not the owner. They are retracing steps. They are watching video footage, as Dr. Scott said before, not just of the cameras on the campus, but anything that might have been a trail that led him to the scene. They're reviewing his credit card and debit card statements. Where did he make purchases? What did he do recently? Where has he been? Looking at his text messages. There is so much work going on and so many witnesses are being interviewed to make a very complete, very large package that is the investigation that will be the case that will be presented to a grand jury and ultimately to a jury. There is a lot of work and it's very important. And right now, I know there's a lot of boots on the ground in that area doing that

work and in other places too. This is a massive investigation. Now, one thing that we knew from the very beginning was that we had a footprint, we had a palm print, and possibly a forearm print. I want to stick with the two that I'm actually familiar with, the footprint and the palm print. Joseph Scott Morgan, you actually were talking to me the other day about a palm print. We have a national database of palm print. We have a national database of palm prints, just like we do fingerprints, correct? Yeah, yeah. I mean, what will happen is on a fingerprint card when somebody's rolled up and they're

taken into jail, you'll get a series of prints, inked prints in the past. I'm assuming that they can digitize these as well. And traditionally, you'll get an entirety of a print. It will encompass this. But here's the rub. if this kid has never been hooked up on charges in the past, guess what? He's not going to be in that database. So, you know, that turns into kind of a dead end.

I was really fascinated, I think, by them talking about a forearm. That's not something that, you know, is normally printed. No, and I think that that probably goes to some surface that he's applying pressure to at that point. And we, you know, we excrete sweat and we excrete oil every day. As a matter of fact, that's, we don't have fingerprints on the tips of our fingers. We have friction ridges. We leave behind fingerprints. And so the same thing would apply with kind of, if your skin is greasy, you lay it on a surface like this. What I'm wondering about is this going to be a spot where you can harvest contact, contact biological specimens from. I'm thinking,

probably it would be evidence-rich in the sense that there would be sweat. There would be oil that's, you know, coming out of the body. And also, is there any partial DNA, you know, where you've got trace evidence of DNA that's degraded skin cell sloughing off? I think that's important. One other thing I'd love to bring you back to is going to be these cartridges. You know, there's a group of people that we forget about in forensics many times, and that's question documents. They can get exemplars from this guy relative to what is written on the shell casings, and they

can give you an idea if this has origins from his actual hand. You know, and were they engraved or were they written, you know, because we don't know at this point. Well, we've heard the term engraved. And my first thought was, did they have a diamond tip thing putting it on there? Or was that just an expression of using a Sharpie? Yeah, exactly. So again, back to Dan's point, this investigation is so layered and so very intense that we're not going to have all of this data at one time, don't expect it. As a matter of fact, I would probably, after this period of time, I would imagine we'll see a

of information that's being released because they're trying to put together a packet at this point in time to bring this guy up on charges. And it's like playing poker, man, you're not going to show your hand. I know the public wants the information. You'll hear things from peripheries, but I would imagine that the authorities are probably going to shut it down pretty quickly relative to how much data is going to be coming out because they're going to be putting together a case. This is where this begins at this point. Sending a spicy picture to your work chat instead of your significant other? That's so embarrassing.

You know what's not? Debt? Consolidate your debt with a loan from FIG. No hassle, no judgment. Borrow better with FIG. Visit fig.ca. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Charlie Kirk's alleged assassin Tyler Robinson demands the top prosecutor be thrown off of his murder trial.

Well, in his wisdom, Judge Tony Graff said, hell no. That's right, a Utah judge tossed Robinson's bid to kick off prosecutors on his murder case. The reasoning was one of the prosecutor's daughters was at the rally where Kirk was murdered. What happened in Utah? The 31-year-old head of Turning Point USA is shot dead during a speaking event at Utah Valley University in Orham. The shooting took place about 20 minutes into his speech. Bystanders said Kirk was hit in the neck while answering student questions. A UVU alert confirmed, quote,

A single shot was fired on campus toward a visiting speaker. Police are investigating now. Video from the scene showed students running as the shots rang out. And Kirk being rushed away by his security team. Utah Governor Spencer Cox posted on X, quote, those responsible will be held fully accountable. Violence has no place in our public life. Americans of every political persuasion must unite in condemning this act.

Our prayers are with Charlie, his family, and all those affected. Utah Senator Mike Lee wrote, quote, please join me in praying for Charlie Kirk and the students gathered there. Vice President Vance added on X, quote, say a prayer for Charlie Kirk, a genuinely good guy and a young father. FBI director Cash Patel said, quote, we are closely monitoring reports of the tragic shooting involving Charlie Kirk at Utah Valley University.

Our thoughts are with Charlie, his loved ones and everyone involved. Agents will be on the scene quickly and the FBI stands in full support of the ongoing response. Kirk himself had posted online only moments before the attack. Quote, we are so

back. Utah Valley University is fired up and ready for the first stop on the American comeback tour. Charlie Kirk rose to national prominence after co-founding Turning Point USA in 2012. It has since built the group into a major conservative force on campus

created several offshoots, including Turning Point Action and Turning Point Faith, and he hosts the Charlie Kirk Show. He has been a strong supporter of President Trump and has often spoken out on issues like critical race theory and government mandates. On Wednesday, he was speaking under a tent at the University Courtyard as part of his American comeback tour. Shots were fired from the top of a nearby building about 200 yards away. The campus went into lockdown while police and federal agents swarmed the scene. Earlier reports stated a shooter was arrested, but that has been corrected by UVU to state that there is no suspect in custody.

With a high degree of certainty, we have him. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. We got him. A massive manhunt. The suspect was taken in a custody at 10 p.m. local time. The assassin who gunned down a loving father of two, a husband. The suspect was apprehended in historic time period. We're in custody.

In custody. The assassin who guns down a fallout. of two. He is observed on video in a plain maroon t-shirt, light-colored shorts, a black hat with a white logo, and light-colored shoes. Arriving on UVU campus in a great Dodge Challenger at approximately 829 a.m. Tyler Robinson, Robinson had become more political in recent years. A second unfired casing red, oh, Bella Chow, Bella Chow, Bella Chow, Chow, and a third unfired Casey Red. If you read this, you are gay. His wife and two little children who will grow up without daddy. This is a very sad day for, again, for our country. And I do know this is going to be

a federal case, and there's many of us believe that Charlie was targeted because of his political ideology. Yeah. What's going to happen to this guy? Well, I hope he was going to be found guilty, I would imagine, and I hope he gets the death penalty. Tyler James Robinson. Count one, aggravated murder. Count two, felony discharge of a firearm causing serious bodily injury. I am filing a notice of intent to seek the death penalty. The defendant has believed to have targeted Charlie Kerr based on Charlie Kirk's political expression and did so knowing that children were present and would witness the homicide. Death penalty is the death penalty, is the death penalty. They loaded him up. That's right. With so many alternative counts, it will be hard for a jury to find him not guilty.

Listen. I am filing a criminal information charging Tyler James Robinson, age 22, with the following crimes. Count one, aggravated murder, a capital offense. for intentionally, we're knowingly causing the death in Charlie Herb, under circumstances that created a great risk of death to others. Count two, felony discharge of a firearm causing serious bodily injury, a first-degree felony. Legal term, they ain't playing. Joining me in All-Star panel to make sense of what we're learning in the courtroom,

straight out to Randolph Rice joining us, Former felony prosecutor, now criminal defense attorney, joining us at Rice Law. Randolph Rice, charging in the alternative. I've done it a million times. If I got a case and the grand jury had not indicted in the alternative, I would either, A, send it back to the grand jury and represent it myself to get those alternative counts, or have the judge charge the jury with the alternative counts. What I mean by that is, you shoot Jackie. You plan to shoot Jackie. It's malice of forethought.

It's premeditated murder. Murder one. So I charge you with murder one. But I'm worried. So then I charge you with voluntary manslaughter. Murder two. Involuntary manslaughter if I'm desperate. In other words, there is no way you are walking out of that courtroom, if I have anything to do with it, without a.

conviction. They loaded him up. Explain in a nutshell, Rice, nutshell. Well, Nancy, you did a great job of explain that because if you don't get that top count, that most serious count, you've got the backups. But the problem here is, and there is a problem, is that I think that they may be reaching on this aggravated murder. Now, they may be using this as leverage to force him or try to get him to take a plea, but the aggravating circumstances at this point, I think are very, very thin. head blowing off. Are you,

they're reaching. Are you serious? This guy, according to the state, this guy stakes out the place, and I believe they're going to end up with video showing that was not his first trip to the top of that roof. He stakes it out. He plans it in advance,

even a wardrobe change. A lot of forethought goes into this. He targets someone because of their freedom of speech. I don't care if you agree with Kirk or disagree with Kirk. I really couldn't care less. Doesn't matter. He targeted him for his freedom of speech. And that is a major, major aggravating circumstances akin to shooting a judge or shooting a political figure like the president or the vice president or shooting a prosecutor or shooting a cop.

You go after them because of what they represent that you don't like. And you actually, you know what? You really know how to kick it off wrong, don't you? I bet you're a super downer at a party. You come in to crime stories and blurt out the state is reaching. What could be more aggravating? Well, Nancy, the problem is that they're trying to rely on the fact that there were children present or that the crime could have hurt somebody else.

And again, that seems to be a bit of a stretch. Show him a picture. Show him the crowd. There, there you go. Look, look at that. He shot from a little under 200 yards away. And you're saying nobody else was in danger, Rice? What?

Look at your monitor. Nobody else is in danger in this situation, at least from, again, I'm arguing the defense here. And I think that the state has a good argument. But in the defense's argument, they're going to say this was a single bullet that had a single target that ultimately killed Charlie Kirk, and it didn't endanger the other people in the crowd. And that's where there may be a problem for the prosecutor's office in trying to seek the charge that seeks the death penalty. Okay, so Randolph, you come in, you plop down in the studio, and you first say the state is reaching. They can't prove it. Did I not hear you just

say the state has a good argument? So which one is it? Does the state have a good argument? I say they do or are they overreaching? You know, that's a very sad second verse, same as the first. Is there any defense attorney that doesn't say in a murder case you're overreaching? Oh, no, every single case, every defense attorney says that you're overreaching. I do it in all the cases that I defend because that's their job. Their job is to challenge the prosecution to say, did you try to get too much here? And again, this is a tactic that the prosecution is using to try to get the defendant to take a plea saying, hey, look. Did you actually say, say the P word plea?

You think there's going to be a plea? You think they're going to pull a Coburger with the whole world watching them? You don't think they're going to take this to trial and seek the death penalty, whether they get it or not? I thought Coburger was going to go to trial and look what happened there. I think that this is something they're trying to push him into is to take a plea. Okay. You know what?

That's the first thing you've said so far to me, Randolph Rice, that makes any sense. But actually, actually, now that I think about it, you're absolutely correct. The number of counts could be a tactic to make the defendant plea guilty because there seems to be no way out with all these alternative counts. I don't see it happening, though. I don't see a plea going down in this case. But again, you're right. We didn't see one coming in Coburger either. But put him up one more time.

Randolph, guys, let me remind you, Rice is a former very successful felony prosecutor. He's won a lot of cases. now he is a criminal defense attorney, civil attorney. So Randolph, the aggravating circumstance you mentioned was just that other people were endangered. It's not like you shoot Jackie in the studio and it's just the two of you. This is a shooting with a throng of people, thousands of people, if that bullet had gone the wrong way, if there had been a gust of wind, who knows.

But they included another aggravating circumstance that this murder occurred in the presence of children. Now, that is aggravating a violent felony that occurs in the presence of children. How are you going to get out of that, Randolph Rice? Bring a child in there that actually saw the murder. They're going to have to prove that in court that a child actually saw it, was affected by it, and therefore, that's the aggravating circumstance. And so I don't know if they've got that right now. You know, it just might be tough for them on that count. Okay, you're right. That's an element of proof. They will have to bring in a child witness to prove it. Guys, a lot has happened since these charges were announced formally in court.

Now, what that was was an arraignment, an arraignment where the defendant is brought in because you cannot stay behind bars over 72 hours without being told what you're charged with by typically a magistrate. I believe this is going to beat the trial judge from here out. But we're also learning not just the charges, but how the murder went down. Listen. approximately 11.51 a.m., the suspect entered campus from the north. He is seen wearing a black shirt with an American flag in the center,

a dark baseball cap, and large sunglasses. Throughout the surveillance, the suspect keeps his head down and rarely raises his head enough to get a clear image of his face. As he proceeds across the campus, he has seen walking with an unusual gate. The suspect walks with very little bending in his right leg, consistent with a rifle to be hidden in his pants. Joining us now, Hermania Rodriguez. She's the chief U.S. reporter Daily Mail. Hermania, thank you for being with us. So that explains, hey, let's see that TMZ video we have of him walking, because I can see what the prosecution is talking about, especially if they play this in promo.

Hermania, explain what they're talking about. Right. So officials gave us more insight about the hours before this shooting last week. As we can see on the screen, the suspect was seen arriving on campus about four hours before the shooting. And there he is limping. Now, this made the public wonder why this person was limping. Do they have a limp? Yesterday, we learned that actually he had hidden the rifle that he used in one of his pant legs. and that's why he's limping the way we see him on screen.

You know, he's kind of bold. What about it? Chris McDonough joining us. Director Cole Case Foundation, former homicide detective, star of the interview room on YouTube, who has gone to this scene, to the home, to the shooting scene,

through the neighborhood. You know, that's pretty bold. Is he not heard of ring doorbell cams? Because they catch him, you know, going door to door to door. They've got almost an un-unified. uninterrupted path of him walking through the neighborhood. And don't tell me, McDonough, he didn't case this out like, where am I going to park?

How am I going to get away? This has been at least, at least days in the making. Absolutely, Nancy. And what I've learned is he did have that vehicle up there and it was parked about a mile away from the crime scene. And he walked in to the crime scene to case it out initially before the crime. the situation went down. And then later, I've also learned that he turned his phone off for a short period of time and then turned it back on after the homicide.

Chris McDonough, speaking of walking through the neighborhood to his vehicle, where did he park his muscle car? The muscle car, Nancy, was parked approximately a mile away at a church parking lot, an LDS church parking lot. Joe Scott Morgan joining me, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. star of a hit new podcast series, Bodybags with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, really? Did he pull a Coburger slash Morfew where they both think they've outsmarted everybody by turning their

phone off there. It's like my teen children, they're 17, believe it or not. The phone is constantly on, even right down to 0.1%. Okay. They will not turn it off, even when they charge it. See, that is a pattern or practice. So when you just coincidentally turn your phone off at the time of the incident, I mean, think about it, Joe Scott, if it weren't for the murder, the MO modus operandi method of operation would be laughable. Because you see the pings leading up to a certain spot and then poof, the phone goes off, the murder occurs, then poof, the phone goes back on and you see the return back. to your home nest, right? It's just... Yeah, you're right. And welcome to the real world here, because these phones are the modern crime scene.

Because it seems like every case that we cover, you know, I think most famously to this point, Coburger's case, you go to these patterns of behavior. This was spoken about quite a bit in that particular case. We have established patterns. Why are you going to turn it off at this particular time? And look, the case is not proven simply based on that, but it's another element that can be integrated into this from a behavioral standpoint. This video from our friends over at the Independent, speaking of the rifle, listen.

The rifle, ammunition rounds, and towel were sent for forensic processing. DNA consistent with defendant was found on the trigger, other parts of the rifle, the fired cartridge cases. two of the three unfiring cartridges and the towel. Law enforcement was unable to immediately locate the shooter. So they published photos of the shooter from the UVU surveillance cameras and asked for the public's health to identify it. Meanwhile, law enforcement continued to try to identify the shooter through other means. Joining us, Dr. Bethany Marshall were now psychoanalyst out of the L.A. jurisdiction.

She is the author of Deal Breaker. You can see her now on Peacock. And she's at Dr. Bethany Marshall.com. Before you launch into the whole furry connection, I want to hear your thoughts on a guy that comes from a loving home, very loving. We've heard, wow, he was afraid to tell his parents. He was dating, another guy that was transitioning.

The family knew. I'm going to tell you about that in just a moment. So he comes from a very loving home. He was smart. Dr. Bethany Marshall got a scholarship at the top 1% of, I believe it was his ACT exam. Almost $40,000 of scholarship. Goes to college, doesn't like it. Leaves College comes out pursues.

Oh, listen to this. $32,000. This scholarship is available for four years. I mean, they're supportive. They love him. My bottom line here is what went wrong? And I'm not talking about his relationship with a guy. That's irrelevant. Doesn't matter. Some people say right. Some people say wrong. Don't care. But what I'm talking about, Bethany, is how do you go from a loving home with a parents like you're the apple of their eye to becoming a psycho shooter? Because Nancy, he seems to me to be what we call narcissistically vulnerable, meaning he gets the $32,000 scholarship, but then he drops out of college and studies to become an electrician. And what that tells me, if he were my patient, is that he cannot tolerate being with his peers. He doesn't feel intact or good enough about himself. He doesn't have a strong ego. So the risk factor for shooters

is that they often feel insulted by society. They feel that they are in a one-down position, that everybody's bullying them, everybody's acting like they're better than them, and they hold on to every little grudge until they have some kind of a profound loss in their life. And in this case, it may have been dropping out of college, and they become even angrier.

And when they decide to shoot, they don't just walk through the ground, Nancy. They're always on the top of a building. Have you noticed that about school shooters? I mean, one we covered many years ago was a guy who stood at the top of a staircase after having locked all the doors. So the students couldn't get out. We call it like the fish in a barrel kind of ammo of the shooting.

So that's the reversing of the feeling of being powerless. Now he's in a powerful position. He's like the big man on campus, literally whizzing bullets over children and families' heads, talking about getting an erection, which is inscrime. He arrived on the bullet and feeling powerful for the first time in his life. So he's trying to reverse a feeling of being powerless, helpless, and at the bottom of society. To receive the resident presidential scholarship from Utah State University. The value of this scholarship is approximately $32,000.

This scholarship is available for four years or eight semesters. He is seen wearing a black shirt with an American flag in the center. A dark baseball cap and large sunbruses. He arrived on campus in different clothing, changed into what we see in those surveillance images, then changed back into the other outfit. He shoots and then he's off the building. He's walking in my beautiful day. Then we see him limping as he's walking through.

He had a conscious objective. Formal charges read in open court, but I'm more interested. Those charges in my mind were predictable. Although the state did get creative in the aggravating search. circumstances that they charge. It's not just murder. It's aggravated murder. Murder with, quote, aggravating circumstances. And the significance of that in order to seek the death penalty, you have to include aggravating circumstances. Just murdering somebody is not enough. Now, there has to be aggravating circumstances. And to Randolph Rice joining us, veteran trial lawyer,

they vary, but in every jurisdiction across our country, you have to have aggravating circumstances to seek the death penalty. In Coburger, it was mass murder. More than one body. It's mass murder. Here, explain the significance of them putting in the indictment, in the charges, the aggravating circumstances, they have to be proved just like every element of the crime. Nancy, you're exactly right. You've got to prove every single element, because what happens is, the jurors are going to get a jury instruction at some point in time and it's going to have all these different elements. And it's going to say, unless you find beyond a reasonable doubt that every single element has been met, then you can't find him guilty of that charge. And so there is the issue with, does the state meet these aggravating circumstances that gets them to the conviction that gets them to the death penalty?

So for instance, in every prosecution and we'll just go with murder system or. That's what we're talking about tonight. You have to prove who is the victim that the indictment has the victim correct. You have to prove the jurisdiction. You have to prove malice aforethought. Even if it's malice that lasts for a moment, the twinkling of an instant, the blink of an eye qualifies as time to prove intent. But when you seek the death penalty, you have to include these aggravating circumstances

and then they become an element of proof. You have to prove them each element beyond a reasonable doubt. Like you said earlier correctly, they may have to bring in a child to prove a child was in harm's way. So we'll see how the state's going to prove it. Renno mishap? That's embarrassing. You know what's not embarrassing?

Using FIG for Home Improvement Loan, a quick, simple, and transparent offer in minutes. Borrow Better with FIG. Visit fig.ca. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. In the judge's reasoning, he said he did not agree with Robinson's lawyers who claimed the whole office had a conflict of interest because one of the prosecutor's daughter was about 85 feet from Kirk when he was shot down at Utah. Valley University. I'm quoting the judge who says the court finds the prosecutor's daughter's presence at the rally did not factor into the prosecutorial analysis, that that decision was, quote, grounded in the assessment of the facts and applicable law. He went on. And it's good that the

judge made this extensive record in his findings for the appellate court, because if and when there is a conviction. This is going to be appealed, this very decision, this pretrial decision. So I'm so glad the judge gave his reasoning. He said, quote, the defense has not shown there's a significant risk. The prosecutor's relationship with his daughter has or will impact defendant's due rights processes. He stated, the defendant has not shown his prosecution by the Utah County prosecutor's office is tainted by a concurrent conflict of interest. Okay, here are the facts. On September 11, 2025, the day after the shooting, Robinson's mother saw the photo of the

shooter in the news and thought the shooter looked like herself. Robinson's mother called her son and asked him where he was. He said he was at home sick, and then he had also been at home. homesick on September 10. Hold on just a moment. Hermania Rodriguez joining us, Daily Mail. He said he was homesick. What, did he add? The dog ate my homework?

Home sick. That's weak. These were details that, I mean, we're really harrowing if you imagine what these parents went through. As we just saw official saying, apparently the day after the shooting, this mother looks at the images released by the FBI as they were hunting this person down.

She thinks it looks like her son calls him. says he's at home sick for the second day in a row. Yeah, you know what? Just got Morgan. What about it? If I saw my son or daughter in a baseball hat and a pair of sunglasses, I would still know it's them. Of course you would. Yeah, all of us would. There's no way that you're not going to recognize your child. I think the big thing here, you know, probably for this mother, and this is more of a Dr. Bethany issue, but what do you do with that information? You know, how does it? him because she's been with him his entire life. So, you know, again, she's going to call him up.

She wants to confirm it. You know, do I believe my lying eyes? And it turns out that her eyes were not lying in this case, Nancy. You know what? You're right. Dr. Bethany Marshall, how will this affect the parents going forward, knowing they turned their son in? You know, Joe Scott Morgan and I were talking on the break. And that sound where he has the $32,000 scholarship, do you know,

notice that his affect is very flat. He just seemed excited. Yes, I did. So it's the mother that goes, woo, and then he kind of mimics the woo, in a less sharp tone or less elevated tone. So I'm going to guess that this mother has a long history of trying to pump her son up to act normal in society. So when she sees this image of him, I don't think is as much of a shock as you and I might think. I would guess you know how parents know their children, that they've always known something is wrong, and they're always waiting for the other shoe to drop. She sees the image. It's confirmed. She calls dad. Reality meets internal fearfulness. And now she's the one who has to turn him in. Maternal guilt, Nancy, she's going to feel maternal guilt, not only that she turned him in, but that she gave birth to somebody who could have done this. and she'll blame herself for having raised him in the wrong way,

although we know these kinds of disorders are very biologically based. It is not the parents' fault. Okay, I understood about 50% of what you said. Okay, I think what you said is the mother has likely spent her whole life trying to present to the world and to herself that her son is normal. And I don't mean that he's mentally insane because he clearly knew what he did was wrong. He planned it. He concealed it. Then he covered it up afterwards. That's evidence of guilty conscience. He knew it was wrong. But mom compensating saying, look, he won a scholarship.

He's so smart. Look, this. He, you know, is a boy scout. Look, he sings in the choir. He's awesome. He cuts the grass. I love him. He's wonderful. All the while, knowing something is off, that's a lifetime of compensating, Dr. Bethany. Yes. This mother has her own lifetime. sentence and I obviously I haven't met this guy I don't know if he's a sociopath but let's say theoretically if he was the mother would likely have noticed many things look at your screen look at your screen oh I grew up on a red dirt road as everybody knows and I always wonder I look at people with like a six bedroom home worth over half a million dollars they're all going to college they have great jobs what's not to be happy about I don't I don't get it Dr.

Bethany, maybe I've set the standard too low. But, you know, I got a family, I've got a home, I've got a job for right now, we're all healthy. I'm on top of the world. I don't get it, Bethany. But we know that this guy was supremely unhappy. He was so unhappy. He couldn't even follow through with a scholarship, so unhappy that he can't even smile when he gets the scholarship. Nancy, this has nothing to do with his upbringing or his family. I can say that fairly confidently, even without knowing them. This type of disorder is what we call psycho-biological, meaning to break it down, there's something wrong with his brain. If you did a brain scan, you would probably see that there's a quieting in the part of the brain that's responsible for empathy. You might even

see like a co-burger syndrome of bullying other people and wanting to be in a one-up position. No, no, no, no. I'm not going to let you go down the Aaron Hernandez route where they claim, the defense claimed he killed so, murdered so many people because there was something wrong with his brain when he functioned completely normally and excelled. It was a multimillionaire, blew it. No, no, no. But, Nancy, this guy was not going to be a defense. This guy was not functioning normally. He was on top of that building, sweating, depositing all this DNA.

In the text, we read that he wants to take the secret with him till old age. So he actually thinks he's going to get away with this. That is something seriously wrong with him. Please get her back in the middle of the road and out of the weeds. All criminals think they're the smartest one in the room and they're not going to get caught. They all think that. Sure. That's not special.

Yeah, that's why it's been proven the death penalty doesn't work because it's not a deterrent for people to not commit crimes because they don't think about, oh, I'm going to ever going to get caught. So therefore I don't have to worry about getting shot at a firing squad. Mr. Robinson, I also wish to inform you of your rights against self-incrimination. Anything that you say in court today could be used against you and we want to protect your constitutional rights. Mr. Robinson at this time, you will remain in custody without bail. Robinson's mother expressed concern to her husband that the suspect shooter looked like Robinson. Robinson's father agreed. Robinson's mother explained that over the last year or so, Robinson had become more political

and had started to lean more to the left. As if somehow being left wing means that you're going to gun somebody down at long range, I think the significance of the mom saying the alleged shoot had become more political and left-leaning was it was a departure from the family values and what he had been his whole life up and to that point. Now, we heard last night that a relative of the roommate blames the roommate for radicalizing the defendant. But the reality is, is it doesn't matter who persuaded him. It doesn't matter. He did this shooting of his own volition. Many people have wondered, did his parents know of his relationship with his male roommate?

Yes, they did. Listen. She stated that Robinson began to date his roommate, a biological male who is transitioning gender. This resulted in several. discussions with family and person, but especially between Robinson and his father, who have very different political views. In one conversation before the shooting, Robinson mentioned that Charlie Kirk would be holding an event at you review, which Robinson said was a stupid venue for the event.

Robinson accused Curb of spreading paint. I'm not quite sure how a murder of a loving father of two a husband has turned into an argument

about furries and trans. Sydney Sumner joining me, crime stories, investigative reporter. None of that matters. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if he's straight. If he was gay, if he was by if he was trans.

None of that bears on the elements of proving a murder case. How did that take center stage, Sid? Well, some interesting bullet engravings. And we're learning more about those. So at first we maybe thought that this was a reference that Robinson was a furry, was part of one of these counterculture groups. But it seems like now, based on his text to his, boyfriend that Robinson was just making a giant joke. So his references to the furry group

notices bulge UWU-U-W-U-W-U. It was just a joke and it didn't mean anything. So that's why this took such a big part of this was we thought that he was making some kind of statement with these bullet inscriptions. Are you saying the inscriptions on the bullet were just a joke, Sydney Sumner. According to Robinson, that's what he told his roommate. Sydney, the engravings that you are suggesting are just a joke were on the bullets used to murder an innocent person. So I don't know who's claiming. You know, that's a joke.

Listen. Remember how I was engraving bullets? The messages are mostly a big meme. If I see notices bulge UWU on Fox News, I might have a stroke. All right, I'm going to have to leave it. That really sucks. Judging from today, I'd say Grandpa's gun does just fine. I don't know.

I think that was a $2,000 scope. Delete this exchange. So this is an exchange that the alleged shooter, the Kirk shooter, is having with the romantic partner as the roommate is being described. Okay. Remember how I was engraving the bullets? Whoa. Whoa. Wait a minute. Number one, what psycho engraves the bullets? I guess this guy in Louisiana Mangioni. But that says to me, Randolph Rice, the roommate was there when Robinson was engraving the bullets. Hello, accomplice, co-defendant. The problem, Nancy, they need that roommate in their case because that roommate is so important to connecting the Kirk killer, the Kirk

shooter to those text messages, they need to keep that roommate, that love interest happy. They need to keep them close because that's going to be probably one of their first witnesses. So I hear what you're saying. Randolph, the two are not mutually exclusive. You can get his testimony and charge him as an accomplice to murder at the same time. In fact, let me guess, does your wife do all the cooking in the home? Have you ever heard of meat tenderizer? I would let the roommate have a few months behind bars to see if that jogs his recollection.

So he can be a co-defendant and a witness at the same time. What about that? Thought? He can. But remember, you've got to put this in front of a jury. And how does the jury see that? Because if under your scenario, if you put him in jail and all of a sudden the defense attorney says, hey, you've been sitting in jail, the prosecutor put you there. So you feel like you're forced to tell this story.

That doesn't look good in front of the jury. No, no, no. You can argue that till you're blue in the face, Randolph Rice. The fact that he would be arrested as a co-defendant. And again, everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. That said, of course a co-defendant goes to jail. That's not unique. That said, what do you make of that text?

My original question before you went off with your pity party about the roommate going to jail. That shows me that he was there, the roommate was there, and would recall the defendant engraving bullets. And don't you imagine you to go, hi, Tyler Robinson, why are you engraving bullets? I would. So are you telling me now he had no idea what was happening? No, I think you're right. He did have a knowledge of what was going on. And I think that there's a potential that the roommate gets charged.

And you're exactly right on that. I'm looking at it from an optical perspective. But if you wanted to charge the roommate, I think you certainly have that ability to charge them with knowing what was going on beforehand. The problem becomes, can you charge them what happened after? And then the text messages, that becomes another sort of sticky situation.

I'm just trying to figure out what you have to do, Chris McDonough, to actually engrave a bullet. It sounds like trying to thread three needles at once. How do you engrave a bullet? Well, there's a couple of ways of doing it, Nancy. You can use, you know, a handheld engraver. But let's also take a hard look at the messaging here. Like, you just happen to have a hand held engraver in your tool pocket? Who would have a hand held engraver?

You know what? Step back and punt. You have anything else for me? Yeah, you can you can buy that really simple at Home Depot, but also recognize that he says mostly the FN messages were mostly a big mean, i.e., there's another messaging in the showcasing or the the cartridges that were recovered. They only recovered, well, they didn't find any showcasing on the roof, So that means it was either left in the bolt of the weapon and then the three in the magazine.

If you don't happen to be one of those people that have a home hand engraver, then how would you do it with a knife? How do you do that? And it's got to be legible because these were easily read. Yeah, it does have to be legible. And the fact from, this struck me from the beginning, you know, because we've had a couple, if you remember the Minneapolis shooting at Mass a few weeks. ago, that individual wrote these kind of cryptic messages on the magazines themselves, but that was with a marker, like an ink marker. In this case, you have to get something that is, you know, I think I mentioned maybe yesterday in the morgue we use what I refer to as diamond engravers to mark the bases of bullets. And this works on a metallic surface as well.

You have electrical engravers. I don't know if he went that far. And the problem is we don't know. Wait, I was about to mock you about the diamond engraver. But wait a minute. Didn't he work as an electrician or as an electric electrician's welder? Yeah. So he may have that tool.

He very well might or he could have some semblance of that. That would be what you have to have is a metallic body that will mark on brass because this is brass. It's one of the softest metals that's out there. And people do engrave. You know, soldiers have been doing it for years and years. I wonder where you got this idea. from. But you know what? I'm more interested in, Nancy, not just the engraving. I'm fascinated by the fact that this guy, according to the presser, not only left engravings to mark these rounds,

but he also left his DNA on specific components within the weapon, even to trigger Nancy. This guy's leaving signatures everywhere. When you say within the weapon, you're right, where did authorities find DNA and they found a lot of it. Yeah, I'm thinking, well, first off, they mentioned specifically the trigger housing. And I say housing actually on the surface of the trigger. So that's probably going to be touched DNA where you're pulling the trigger. However, this weapon has what's referred to as an internal magazine. It's not like the classic magazine kind of drops out and you have to feed it back in. You literally, Nancy, have to take your thumb and press these rounds into that in Dwelling Magazine.

So any of those surfaces around there where you're trying to leverage this thing, even on the surface of the bolt, the handle of the bolt, any of these areas, you can deposit DNA. And let's face it, he had this thing wrapped in a towel. He's got this thing in kind of a pristine condition he's left it in. So, you know, they had a field day when they got their hands on this thing in the lab. Police interviewed Robinson's roommate. A biological male who was involved in a romantic relationship with Robinson.

The roommate told police that the roommate received messages from Robinson about the shooting and he did provide those messages to police. I can get close to it, but there's a squad car parked right by it. I think they already swept that spot, but I don't want to chance it. I'm wishing I had circled back and grabbed it as soon as I got to my vehicle. I'm worried what my old man would do if I didn't bring back Grandpa's rifle. I don't even know if it had a serial number, but it wouldn't trace to me. I worry about Prince.

I had to leave it in a bush where I changed outfits, didn't have the ability or time to bring it with. I might have to abandon it and hope they don't find Prince. How the f*** will I explain losing it to my old man? I think he needs to get his priority straight. He's worried about his dad being mad. He lost the grandpa's gun. What about the death penalty? What is he thinking, Dr. Bethany Marshall?

And did you notice this is a reocry of all of the texts the alleged sheeter sends to the roommate? If you notice, roommate's not answering. He's like, what? But the guy's working. about losing grandpa's gun? Nancy, I'd love to talk about the idea that he thinks that what's on the bullets are a meme. A meme is a joke. So he's already minimizing the severity of the alleged crime.

A meme is something that goes viral and everybody sees it. So there's this fantasy of being famous, like being some kind of a hero. The reference to the bulge, I take all of this seriously. none of it is a joke. The bulge is getting an erection while you are shooting somebody. If he were my patient, I would ask him, what is sexually exciting about shooting somebody and whizzing the bullet over a crowd of family and children? Is it that sadism is exciting? Having power over people is exciting. I'd want to try to get to the root of that to understand this guy's mind. You know what? There's so much happening in this case.

Remember the old guy at the get-go that claims he was responsible for the shooting. I did it. I did it. Raising both hands. Now saying that he was just trying to give the real shooter a chance to get away. Okay. Listen to what the alleged shooter says about that. I thought they caught the person? No. They grabbed some crazy old dude that interrogated someone in similar clothing. I had planned to grab my rifle from my drop point shortly after, but most of that side of town got locked down.

It's quiet, almost enough to get out. But there's one vehicle lingering. Why? Why did I do it? Yeah. I had enough of his hatred. Some hate can't be negotiated out. If I am able to grab my rifle unseen,

I will have left no evidence. Going to attempt to retrieve it again. Hopefully they have moved on. I haven't seen anything about them finding it. How long have you been planning this? A bit over a week, I believe. much for the insanity defense, he had this thing planned out cold. But my point is George Zinn, the one that threw investigators off at the beginning, claiming he did it. He was arrested.

Now everybody's trashing the FBI director for arresting him. He said he did it. Well, there's a sad sack right there. Okay, bombshell Hermania Rodriguez. He has, George Zinn has caught a few charges himself, hasn't he? Yeah, this has been another incredible part of this story. As you said, right after the shooting, this man was film saying, I shot him, I shot him. Now, apparently he has told police that he wanted to give the actual shooter time to get away. We have learned that he is someone who has previously caused trouble in the area, and he's now charged with child pornography. That just trilled off your tongue. Did you just say child pornography?

Correct. After he was taken into custody right after this shooting, days later. later he has been charged with this crime. So Mr. Robinson, you have a right to an attorney. If you cannot afford one, the court can appoint an attorney to represent you. I have reviewed your declaration of financial status and find that you are indigent. I'm provisionally appointing a Rule A qualified attorney to represent you on your case, Mr. Robinson.

Along with their filing of their appearance of counsel, the assigned attorneys must file declarations with the court that outline their qualifications under Rule 8 and Rule 8C, I'm sorry, under Rule 8B and Rule 8C for a counsel appointment in a case where death may be a sentencing option. The bid, the attempt, the demand to have the top prosecutor thrown off the Charlie Kirk assassin's case is just one of the many trial strategies employees we will see, as this case, foals. The latest in this case, cameras will be allowed in the courtroom, saying coverage request from news stations will be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Robinson's attorneys argued potential jurors could be biased by slanted news reports and online comments. They say live

broadcasts were feeling stories and interfering with Robinson's right to a fair trial. State District Judge Tony Graf refused to ban cameras, saying, quote, electronic media coverage provides a means to facilitate the public's right of access to court proceedings for those who cannot physically occupy the limited space available in a courtroom. Cameras are located to the rear of the courtroom behind Robinson, making it harder to get images of him, protecting his rights. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an I-heart podcast, guaranteed human.