Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - CHARLIE KIRK KILLER DEATH PENALTY, FAMILY FEUD OVER MALE "LOVER"

Episode Date: September 17, 2025

State formally files to seek death penalty against Tyler Robinson during his initial court appearance, Correctional officers are going to extraordinary measures to make sure inmate 460956 Robinson  makes it to his trial alive. Robinson is under a physical watch in special housing. Prosecutor says, he does not take the death penalty decision lightly and made it independently based on evidence. State filed criminal information charging Tyler James Robinson, age 22, with the following crimes. Count one, aggravated murder, a capital offense for intentionally or knowingly causing the death of Charlie Kirk under circumstances that created a great risk of death to others. Count two, felony discharge of a firearm causing serious bodily injury, a first degree felony. The state alleging aggravating factors on counts one and two because aledgely the defendant targeted Charlie Kirk based on Charlie's political expression and knowing children were present and witness the murder. More arrest, disgusting pedophile, remember George Zinn, 71, the get away liar, who proclaimed he killed Charlie Kirk as audience members scrambled to safety. During Zinn's arrest and his charge with obstructing justice, admitted he only claimed to be responsible to allow the actual shooter a head start. Officers asked Zinn's to have his phone to search to prove he was innocent. What they found is horrific, you wont believe the ages of these kids. Now, Zinn also faces four counts of sexual exploitation of a minor. A Utah judge, Judge Graff, along with Prosecutor Chad Gruner, has issued Charlie Kirk's widow, Erica, a pretrial protective order. The order bars Robinson from contacting Erika in any way, and warns of additional charges if he violates the order. There are number of individuals currently being investigated and interrogated and the number yet to be interrogated and investigated specific to the chat room. We are very much in our ongoing investigation. Kennedy: So others could have been involved? Patel: Yes, sir. As more details are unveiled, Robinson's mom also recognized him in the surveillance images and confronted him. Not only did Robinson's Discord chat group see him on the surveillance images, but also wrote silly memes, laughing, implying they new it was going to happen.   Joining Nancy Grace today, Randolph Rice - Former Prosecutor and Current Criminal Defense & Civil Attorney at Rice Law, website: ricelawmd.com, IG, FB, X: @ricelawmd   Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Author: "Deal Breaker: When to work on a relationship and when to walk away” Also featured in hit show: "Paris in Love" on Peacock,  www.drbethanymarshall.com , Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, Twitter: @DrBethanyLive   Chris McDonough -Director at the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective, worked over 300 Homicides in 25-year career, Trained the first Native American Homicide Task Force; & Host of YouTube channel, "The Interview Room" www.coldcasefoundation.org/chris-mcdonough  Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan", @JoScottForensic,   Germania Rodriguez - Chief US Reporter, DailyMail.com  Sydney Sumner - Crime Stories Investigative Reporter  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The Charlie Kirk, killer suspect, death penalty announced. This, as a family feud emerges over the suspect's male lover. I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime stories. I want to thank you for being with us. The Tyler James Robinson.

Count one, aggravated murder. Count two, felony discharge of a firearm causing serious bodily injury. I am filing a notice of intent to seek the death penalty. The defendant has believed to have targeted Charlie Kerr based on Charlie Kirk's political expression and did so knowing that children were present and would witness the homicide. Death penalty is the death penalty. is the death penalty. They loaded him up.

That's right. With so many alternative counts, it will be hard for a jury to find him not guilty. Listen. I am filing a criminal information charging Tyler James Robinson, age 22, with the following crimes. Count one, aggravated murder, a capital offense, for intentionally or knowingly causing the death in Charlie Herb and her circumstances that created a great risk of death to others. Count two, felony discharge of a firearm causing serious bodily injury, a first-degree felony. Legal term, they ain't playing.

Joining me an all-star panel to make sense of what we are learning in the courtroom, straight out to Randolph Rice joining us, former felony prosecutor, now criminal defense attorney, joining us at Rice Law. Randolph Rice, charging in the alternative. I've done it a million times. If I got a case and the grand jury had not indicted in the alternative, I would either a, send it back to the grand jury and represent it myself to get those alternative counts or have the judge charge the jury with the alternative counts. What I mean by that is you shoot Jackie. to shoot Jackie. It's malice of forethought. It's premeditated murder. Murder one. So I charge you with murder one. But I'm worried. So then I charged you with voluntary manslaughter. Murder two.

Involuntary manslaughter if I'm desperate. In other words, there is no way you are walking out of that courtroom, if I have anything to do with it, without a conviction. They loaded him up. Explain a nutshell, Rice, nutshell. Well, Nancy, you did a great job of explain that because if you don't get that top count, that most serious count, you've got the backups. But the problem here is, and there is a problem, is that I think that they may be reaching on this aggravated murder. Now, they may be using this as leverage to force him or try to get him to take a plea,

but the aggravating circumstances at this point, I think are very, very thin. Head blowing off. Are you? They're reaching. Are you serious? This guy, according to the state, this guy stakes out the place, and I believe they're going to end up with video showing that was not his first trip to the top of that roof. He stakes it out. He plans it in advance, even a wardrobe change.

A lot of forethought goes into this. He targets someone because of their freedom of speech. I don't care if you agree with Kirk or disagree with Kirk. I really couldn't care less. Doesn't matter. He targeted him for his freedom of speech. And that is a major, major aggravating circumstances akin to shooting a judge or shooting a political figure like the president or the vice president or shooting a prosecutor or shooting a cop. You go after them because of what they represent that you don't like and you actually, you know what?

You really know how to kick it off wrong, don't you? I bet you're a super downer at a party. You come in to crime stories and blurt out the state is reaching. What could be more aggravating? Well, Nancy, the problem is that they're trying to rely on the fact that there were children present or that the crime could have hurt somebody else. And again, that seems to be a bit of a stretch. Show him a picture. Show him the crowd.

There, there you go. Look. Look at that. He shot from a little under 200 yards away, and you're saying nobody else was in danger, Rice? What? Look at your monitor. Nobody else is in danger in this situation, at least from, again, I'm arguing the defense here. And I think that the state has a good argument.

But in the defense's argument, they're going to say this was a single bullet that had a single target that ultimately killed Charlie Kirk. And it didn't endanger the other people in the crowd. And that's where there may be a problem for the prosecutor's office. in trying to seek the charge that seeks the death penalty. Okay, so Randolph, you come in, you plop down in the studio, and you first say the state is reaching. They can't prove it. Did I not hear you just say the state has a good argument? So which one is it?

Does the state have a good argument? I say they do, or are they overreaching? You know, that's a very sad second verse, same as the first. Is there any defense attorney that doesn't say in a murder case you're overreaching? Oh no, every single case. Every defense attorney says that you're overreaching. I do it in all the cases that I defend because that's their job. Their job is to challenge the prosecution to say, did you try to get too much here?

And again, this is a tactic that the prosecution is using to try to get the defendant to take a plea saying, hey, look. Did you actually say the P word plea? You think there's going to be a plea? You think they're going to pull a Coburger with the whole world watching them? You don't think they're going to take this to trial and seek the death penalty, whether they get it, or not? I thought Kohlberger was going to go to trial and look what happened there. I think that this is something they're trying to push him into is to take a plea. Okay, you know what? That's the first thing you've said so far to me, Randolph Rice, that makes any sense. But actually,

actually, now that I think about it, you're absolutely correct. The number of counts could be a tactic to make the defendant plea guilty because there seems to be no way out with all these alternative counts. I don't see it happening though. I don't see a plea going down this case, but again, you're right. We didn't see one coming in Coburger either. But put him up one more time. Randolph, um, guys, let me remind you, Rice is a former very successful felony prosecutor. He's won a lot of cases. Now he is a criminal defense attorney, civil attorney. So Randolph, the aggravating circumstance you mentioned was just that other people were endangered. It's not like you shoot Jackie in the studio and it's just the two of you. This is

a shooting with a throng of people, thousands of people, if that bullet had gone the wrong way, if there had been a gust of wind, who knows. But they included another aggravating circumstance that this murder occurred in the presence of children. Now, that is aggravating a violent felony that occurs in the presence of children. How are you going to get out of that, Randolph Rice? Bring a child in there that actually saw the murder. They're going to have to prove that in court that a child actually saw it, was affected by it, and therefore, that's the aggravating circumstance. And so I don't know if they've got that right now. It just might be tough for them on that count. Okay, you're right. That's an element of proof. They will have to

bring in a child witness to prove it. Guys, a lot has happened since these charges were announced formerly in court. Now, what that was was an arraignment, an arraignment where the defendant is brought in because you cannot stay behind bars over 72 hours without being told what you're charged with by typically a magistrate. I believe this is going to be the trial judge from here out. But we're also learning not just

the charges, but how the murder went down. Listen. At approximately 11.51 a.m. The suspect entered campus from the north. He is seen wearing a black shirt with an American flag in the center.

A dark baseball cap and large sunglasses. Throughout the surveillance, the suspect keeps his head down and rarely raises his head enough to get a clear image of his face. As he proceeds across the campus, he has seen walking with an unusual gate. The suspect walks with very little bending in his right leg, consistent with a rifle being hidden in his pants. Joining us now, Hermania Rodriguez, she's the Chief U.S. Reporter Daily Mail. Thank you for being with us. So that explains, hey, let's see that TMZ video we have of him walking because I can see what the prosecution is talking about, especially if they play this in promo. Hermania, explain what they're talking about.

Right. So officials gave us more insight about the hours before this shooting last week. As we can see on the screen, the suspect was seen arriving on campus about four hours before the shooting. And there he is limping. Now, this made the public wonder why this person was limping. Do they have a limp? Yesterday, we learned that actually he had hidden the rifle that he used in one of his pant legs. And that's why he's limping the way we see him on screen.

You know, he's kind of bold. What about it? Chris McDonough joining us. Director Cole Case Foundation, former homicide detective, star of the interview room on YouTube, who has gone. on to this scene, to the home, to the shooting scene, through the neighborhood. You know, that's pretty bold. Is he not heard of ringed doorbell cams?

Because they catch him, you know, going door to door to door to door. They've got almost an uninterrupted path of him walking through the neighborhood. And don't tell me, McDonough, he didn't case this out, like, where am I going to park? How am I going to get away? This has been at least, at least days in the making. Absolutely, Nancy. him. And what I've learned is he did have that vehicle up there and it was parked about a mile away from the crime scene. And he walked in to the crime scene to case it out initially before the

situation went down. And then later, I've also learned that he turned his phone off for a short period of time and then turned it back on after the homicide. Chris McDonough, speaking of walking through the neighborhood to his vehicle. Where did he park his muscle car? The muscle car, Nancy, was parked approximately a mile away at a church parking lot, an LDS church parking lot. Joe Scott Morgan joining me, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and Star of a hit new podcast series, Bodybacks with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, really? Did he pull a Coburger slash Morfew where they both think they've outsmarted everybody by turning their phone off there. It's like my teen children, they're 17, believe it or not.

The phone is constantly on, even right down to 0.1%. Okay. They will not turn it off, even when they charge it. See, that is a pattern or practice. So when you just coincidentally turn your phone off at the time of the incident. I mean, think about it, Joe Scott. If it weren't for the murder, the MO modus operandi method of operation would be laughable because you see the pings leading up to a certain spot and then poof the phone goes off the murder occurs then poof the phone goes back on and you see the return back to your home nest right it's just yeah yeah you're right and welcome to the real world here because these phones are the modern crime scene because it seems like every case that we cover, you know, I think most famously to this point, Koberger's case, you go to these patterns

of behavior. This was spoken a lot, spoken about quite a bit in that particular case. We have established patterns. Why are you going to turn it off at this particular time? And look, the case is not proven simply based on that, but it's another element that can be integrated into this from a behavioral standpoint. This video from our friends over at the Independent. Speaking of the rifle, listen. The rifle, ammunition rounds, and towel were sent for forensic processing. DNA consistent with defendant was found on the trigger, other parts of the rifle,

the fired cartridge casing, two of the three unfired cartridges, and the towel. Law enforcement was unable to immediately locate the sheet. so they publish photos of the shooter from the UVU surveillance cameras and ask for the public's health to identify them. Meanwhile, law enforcement continue to try to identify the shooter through other means. Joining us, Dr. Bethany Marshall, we're now psychoanalyst out of the L.A. jurisdiction. She is the author of Deal Breaker. You can see her now on Peacock. And she's at Dr. Bethany Marshall.com. before you launch into the whole furry connection, I want to hear your thoughts on a guy that comes from a loving home, very loving.

We've heard, wow, he was afraid to tell his parents. He was dating another guy that was transitioning. The family knew. And I'm going to tell you about that in just a moment. So he comes from a very loving home. He was smart. Dr. Bethany Marshall got a scholarship at the top 1% of, I believe it was his ACT exam, almost $40,000 of scholarship. Goes to college, doesn't like it.

Leaves College comes out, pursues. Listen to this. $32,000. This scholarship is available for four years or eight semesters. I mean, they're supportive. They love him. My bottom line here is, what? went wrong. And I'm not talking about his relationship with a guy. That's irrelevant. Doesn't

matter. Some people say right. Some people say wrong. Don't care. But what I'm talking about, Bethany, is how do you go from a loving home with a parents like you're the apple of their eye to becoming a psycho shooter? Because Nancy, he seems to me to be what we call narcissistically vulnerable, meaning he gets the $32,000 scholarship, but then he drops out of college and studies to become an electrician. And what that tells me, if he were my patient, is that he cannot tolerate being with his peers. He doesn't feel intact or good enough about himself. He doesn't have a strong ego. So the risk factor for shooters is that they often feel insulted by society. They feel that they are in a one down position, that everybody's bullying them, everybody's acting like they're

better than them, and they hold on to every little grudge until they have some kind of a profound loss in their life. And in this case, it may have been dropping out of college. And they become even angrier. And when they decide to shoot, they don't just walk through the ground, Nancy. They're always on the top of a building. Have you noticed that about school shooters? I mean, one we covered many years ago was a guy who stood at the top of a staircase after having locked all the doors so the students couldn't get out. We call it like the fish in a barrel kind of ammo of the shooting. So that's the reversing of the feeling of being powerless. Now he's in a powerful position. He's like the big man on campus literally whizzing bullets over children and family's

heads talking about getting an erection which is inscribed on the bullet and feeling powerful. for the first time in his life. So he's trying to reverse a feeling of being powerless, helpless, and at the bottom of society. To receive the resident presidential scholarship from Utah State University. The value of this scholarship is approximately $32,000. This scholarship is available for four years or eight semesters.

He is seen wearing a black shirt with an American flag in the center. A dark baseball cap and large sunglasses. He arrived on campus in. different clothing, changed into what we see in those surveillance images, then changed back into the other outfit. He shoots and then he's off the building. Then we see him limping as he's walking through.

He had a conscious objective. Formal charges read in open court, but I'm more interested. Those charges in my mind were predictable. Although the state did get creative in the aggravating circumstances that they charged. It's not just murder. It's aggravated murder. Murder with, quote, aggravating circumstances. And the significance of that in order to seek the death penalty, you have to include

aggravating circumstances. Just murdering somebody is not enough. Now, there has to be aggravating circumstances. And to Randolph Rice joining us, veteran trial lawyer, they vary. But in every jurisdiction across our country, you have to have aggravating circumstances. to seek the death penalty. In Coburger, it was mass murder. More than one body. It's mass murder. Here explained the significance of them putting in the indictment, in the charges, the aggravating circumstances. They have to be proved just like every element of the

crime. Nancy, you're exactly right. You've got to prove every single element because what happens is the jurors are going to get a jury instruction at some point in time and it's going to have all these different elements. And it's going to say, unless you find beyond a reasonable doubt that every single element has been met, then you can't find him guilty of that charge. And so there is the issue with, does the state meet these aggravating circumstances that gets them to the conviction that gets them to the death penalty? So for instance, in every prosecution and we'll just go with murder system or that's what we're talking about tonight, you have to prove who is the victim that the indictment has the victim correct. You have to prove the jurisdiction. You have to

prove malice aforethought, even if it's malice that lasts for a moment. The twinkling of an instant, the blink of an eye qualifies as time to prove intent. But when you seek the death penalty, you have to include these aggravating circumstances and then they become an element of proof. You have to prove them each element beyond a reasonable doubt. Like you said earlier correctly, they may have to bring in a child to prove a child was in harm's way. So we'll see how the state's going to prove. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Another thing we are learning.

about how the defendant was recognized. Listen. On September 11, 2025, the day after the shooting, Robinson's mother saw the photo of the shooter in the news and thought the shooter looked like her son. Robinson's mother called her son and asked him where he was. He said he was at home sick,

and then he had also been at home. also been at home, homesick on September 10th. Hold on just a moment. Hermannia Rodriguez joining us, Daily Mail. He said he was homesick. What, did he add the dog ate my homework? Home sick. That's weak.

These were details that, I mean, we're really harrowing, if you imagine what these parents went through. As we just saw official saying, apparently the day after the shooting, this mother looks at the images released by the FBI as they were hunting this person down. She thinks it looks like her son. like her son calls him.

He says he's at home sick for the second day in a row. Yeah, you know what? Joe's got Morgan. What about it? If I saw my son or daughter in a baseball hat and a pair of sunglasses, I would still know it's them. Of course you would. Yeah, all of us would.

There's no way that you're not going to recognize your child. I think the big thing here, you know, probably for this mother, and this is more of a Dr. Bethany issue, but what do you do with that information you know how does it in because you've been with him his entire life so you know again she's going to call him up she wants to confirm it you know do i believe my lying eyes and it turns out that her eyes were not lying in this case nancy you know what you're right dr bethany marshall how will this affect the parents going forward knowing they turned their son in you know joe scott Morgan and I were talking on the break and that sound where he has the $32,000 scholarship,

do you notice that his affect is very flat? He just seemed excited. Yes, I did. So it's the mother that goes, woo, and then he kind of mimics the woo, in a less sharp tone or less elevated tone. So I'm going to guess that this mother has a long history of trying to pump her son up to act normal in society. So when she sees this image of him, I don't think is as much of a shock as you and I might think.

I would guess, you know how parents know their children, that they've always known something is wrong, and they're always waiting for the other shoe to drop. She sees the image. It's confirmed. She calls dad. Reality meets internal fearfulness. And now she's the one who has to turn him in. Maternal guilt, Nancy.

She's going to feel maternal guilt, not only that. she turned him in, but that she gave birth to somebody who could have done this and she'll blame herself for having raised him in the wrong way, although we know these kinds of disorders are very biologically based. It is not the parents' fault. Okay, I understood about 50% of what you said. Okay, I think what you said is the mother has likely spent her whole life trying to present to the world and to herself that her son is normal. And I don't mean that he's mentally insane because he clearly knew what he did was wrong. He planned it. He concealed it. Then he covered it up afterwards. That's evidence of guilty conscience. He knew it was wrong. But mom compensating,

saying, look, he won a scholarship. He's so smart. Look this. He, you know, it's a boy scout. Look, he sings in the choir. He's awesome. He cuts the grass. I love him. He's wonderful. all that while knowing something is off, that's a lifetime of compensating, Dr. Bethany. Yes, this mother has her own lifetime sentence. And obviously I haven't met this guy. I don't know if he's a sociopath. But let's see theoretically if he was, the mother would likely have noticed many things. Look, Bethany, look at your screen.

Look at your screen. I grew up on a red dirt road, as everybody knows. And I always wonder, I look at people with like a six-bethy. bedroom home worth over half a million dollars they're all going to college they have great jobs what's not to be happy about i don't i don't get it dr bethany maybe i've set the standard too low but you know i got a family i've got a home i've got a job for right now we're all healthy i'm on top of the world i don't get it bethany but we know that this guy was supremely unhappy. He was so unhappy. He couldn't even follow through with a scholarship, so unhappy that he

can't even smile when he gets the scholarship. Nancy, this has nothing to do with his upbringing or his family. I can say that fairly confidently, even without knowing them. This type of disorder is what we call psycho-biological, meaning to break it down, there's something wrong with his brain. If you did a brain scan, you would probably see that there's a quieting in the part of the brain that's responsible for empathy. You might even see like a co-burger syndrome of bullying other people and wanting to be in a one-up position. No, no, no, no. I'm not going to let you go down the Aaron Hernandez route where they claim, the defense claimed he killed so, murdered so many people because there was something wrong with his brain when he function completely normally

and excelled. It was a multimillionaire, blew it. No, no, no. But Nancy, this guy was not. This guy was not functioning normally. He was on top of that building, sweating, depositing all this DNA in the text, we read that he wants to take the secret with him till old age. So he actually thinks he's going to get away with this. That is something seriously wrong with him. Please get her back in the middle of the road and out of the weeds. All criminals think they're the smartest one in the room and they're not going to get caught. They all think that.

Sure. That's not special. Yeah. That's why it's been proven the death penalty doesn't work because it's not a deterrent for people to not commit crimes because they don't think about, oh, I'm going to ever going to get caught. So therefore I don't have to worry about getting shot at a firing squad. Mr. Robinson, I also wish to inform you of your rights against self-incrimination. Anything that you say in court today could be used against you, and we want to protect your constitutional rights. Mr. Robinson, at this time, you will remain in custody without bail.

Robinson's mother expressed concern to her husband that the suspect shooter looked like Robinson. Robinson's father agreed. Robinson's mother explained that over the last year or so, Robinson had become more political and had started to lean more to the left. As if somehow being left wing means that you're going to gun somebody down at long range, I think the significance of the mom saying the alleged shooter had become more political and left-leaning was it was a departure from, the family values and what he had been his whole life up and to that point. Now, we heard last

night that a relative of the roommate blames the roommate for radicalizing the defendant. But the reality is, is it doesn't matter who persuaded him. It doesn't matter. He did this shooting of his own volition. Many people have wondered, did his parents know of his relationship with his male roommate? Yes, they did. Listen. She stated that Robinson began to date his roommate, a biological male who is transitioning genders. This resulted in several discussions with family and hers, but especially between Robinson and his father, who have very different political views. In one conversation before the shooting, Robinson mentioned that Charlie Curb would be holding an event at you review, which Robertson

said was a stupid venue for the event. Robinson accused Kirk of spreading hate. I'm not quite sure how a murder of a loving father of two a husband has turned into an argument about furries and trans. Sidney Sumner joining me, crime stories, investigative reporter. None of that matters. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if he's straight.

If he was gay, if he was bi, if he was trans, none of that bears on the elements of proving a murder case. How did that take center stage, Sid? Well, some interesting bullet engravings. And we're learning more about those. So at first we maybe thought that this was a reference that Robinson was a furry, was part of one of these counterculture groups.

But it seems like now, based on his text to his boyfriend, that Robinson was just making a giant joke. So his references to the furry group notices bulge, UW, Uwu, it was just a joke. and it didn't mean anything. So that's why this took such a big part of this was we thought that he was making some kind of statement with these bullet inscriptions. Are you saying the inscriptions on the bullet

were just a joke, Sidney Summer? According to Robinson, that's what he told his roommate. Sydney, the engravings that you are suggesting are just a joke were on the bullets used to murder an innocent person. So I don't know who's claiming, you know, that's a joke. Listen. Remember how I was engraving bullets?

The messages are mostly a big meme. If I see notices bulge UWU on Fox News, I might have a stroke. All right, I'm going to have to leave it. That really sucks. Judging from today, I'd say grandpa's gun does just fine. I don't know. I think that was a $2,000 scope. Delete this exchange.

So this is an exchange that the alleged shooter, the Kirk shooter, is having with the romantic partner as the roommate is being described. Okay. Remember how I was engraving the bullets? Whoa. Wait a minute. Number one, what psycho engraves the bullets? I guess this guy in Luigi Mangione. But that says to me, Randolph Rice, the roommate was there when Robinson was engraving the bullets.

Hello, accomplice, co-defendant. The problem, Nancy, they need that roommate in their case because that roommate is so important to connecting the Kirk killer, the Kirk shooter to those text messages. They need to keep that roommate, that love interest happy. They need to keep them close because that's going to be probably one of their first. witnesses. So I hear what you're saying. Randolph, the two are not mutually exclusive. You can get his testimony and charge him as an accomplice to murder at the same time. In fact, let me guess, does your wife do all the cooking in the home? Have you ever heard of meat tenderizer? I would let the roommate have a few months behind bars to see if that jogs his recollection. So,

So he can be a co-defendant and a witness at the same time. What about that, thought? He can. But remember, you've got to put this in front of a jury, and how does the jury see that? Because if, under your scenario, if you put him in jail and all of a sudden the defense attorney says, hey, you've been sitting in jail, the prosecutor put you there, so you feel like you're forced to tell this story, that doesn't look good in front of the jury. No, no, no.

You can argue that till you're blue in the face, Randolph Rice. The fact that he would be arrested as a co-defendant, and again, everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. That said, of course a co-defendant goes to jail. That's not unique. That said, what do you make of that text? My original question before you went off with your pity party about the roommate going to jail. that shows me that he was there, the roommate was there, and would recall the defendant engraving bullets. And don't you imagine we go, hi, Tyler Robinson, why are you engraving

bullets? I would. So are you telling me now he had no idea what was happening? No, I think you're right. He did have a knowledge of what was going on. And I think that there's a potential that the roommate gets charged. And you're exactly right on that. I'm looking at it from an optical perspective, but if you wanted to charge the roommate, I think you certainly have that ability to charge them with knowing what was going on beforehand. The problem becomes can you charge them what happened after? And the text messages, that becomes another sort of sticky situation. I'm just trying to figure out what you have to do, Chris McDonough, to actually engrave a bullet. It sounds like trying to thread three needles at once. How do you engrave a bullet?

Well, there's a couple of ways of doing it. Nancy, you can use, uh, you know, a handheld engraver. But let's also take a hard look at the messaging here. Like, you just happen to have a hand held engraver in your tool pocket? Who would have a hand held engraver? You know what? Stead back and punt. You have anything else for me?

Yeah, you can buy that really simple at Home Depot, but also recognize that he says mostly the FN messages were. mostly a big mean i.e. there's another messaging in the showcasing or the the cartridges that were recovered the they only recovered well they didn't find any showcasing on the on the roof so that means a it was either left in the bolt of the of the weapon and then the three in the magazine so the fact that he was engraving a message on those cartridges tells us there There's a bigger story. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

You know, Jessica Morgan, this is why we discuss cases before we take them in front of a jury. As I'm sitting here, Jackie says she's got a handheld home engraver. You know, the things you learn about people in a dark studio. But since McDonough dodged the question, if you don't. don't happen to be one of those people that have a home hand engraver, then how would you do it with a knife? How do you do that? And it's got to be legible because these were easily read. Yeah, it does have to be legible. And the fact from, this struck me from the beginning, you know, because we've had a couple, if you remember the Minneapolis shooting at mass a few weeks ago, that individual

wrote these kind of cryptic messages on the magazines themselves. But that was with, a marker, like an ink marker. In this case, you have to get something that is, you know, I think I mentioned maybe yesterday in the morgue we use what I refer to as diamond engravers to mark the bases of bullets. And this works on a metallic surface as well. You have electrical engravers. I don't know if he went that far. And the problem is we don't know.

Wait, wait. I was about to mock you about the diamond engraver. But wait a minute. But didn't he work as an electrician or as an electric electrician's welder? Yeah. So he may have that tool. He very well might or he could have some semblance of that. That would be what you have to have is a metallic body that will mark on brass because this is brass.

It's one of the softest metals that's out there and people do engrave. You know, soldiers have been doing it for years and years. I wonder where you got this idea from. But you know what I'm more interested in, Nancy? not just the engraving. I'm fascinated by the fact that this guy, according to the presser, not only left engravings to mark these rounds, but he also left his DNA on specific components within the weapon.

Even to trigger, Nancy, this guy's leaving signatures everywhere. When you say within the weapon, you're right, where did authorities find DNA and they found a lot of it? Yeah, I'm thinking, well, first off, they mentioned specific. Specifically, the trigger housing. And I say housing actually on the surface of the trigger. So that's probably going to be touched DNA where you're pulling the trigger. However, this weapon has what's referred to as an internal magazine.

It's not like the classic magazine kind of drops out and you have to feed it back in. You literally, Nancy, have to take your thumb and press these rounds into that indwelling magazine. So any of those surfaces around there where you're trying to leverage. this thing, even on the surface of the bolt, the handle of the bolt, any of these areas, you can deposit DNA, and let's face it, he had this thing wrapped in a towel. He's got this thing in kind of a pristine condition he's left it in. So, you know, they had a field day when they got their hands on this thing in the lab. Police interview Robinson's roommate, a biological now who was involved in a romantic relationship with Robinson. The roommate told police,

that the roommate received messages for Mom and saying about the shooting, and he did provide those messages to police. I can get close to it, but there's a squad car parked right by it. I think they already swept that spot, but I don't want to chance it. I'm wishing I had circled back and grabbed it as soon as I got to my vehicle. I'm worried what my old man would do if I didn't bring back Grandpa's rifle. I don't even know if it had a serial number, but it wouldn't trace. to me. I worry about Prince. I had to leave it in a bush where I changed outfits, didn't

have the ability or time to bring it with. I might have to abandon it and hope they don't find Prince. How the fuck will I explain losing it to my old man? I think he needs to get his priority straight. He's worried about his dad being mad. He lost the grandpa's gun. what about the death penalty that what is he thinking dr bethany marshall he's oh and did you notice this is a recree of all of the texts the alleged sheeter sends to the roommate if you notice roommate's not answering he's like what but the guy's worried about losing grandpa's gun Nancy, I'd love to talk about the idea that he thinks that what's on the bullets are a meme. A meme is a joke.

So he's already minimizing the severity of the alleged crime. A meme is something that goes viral and everybody sees it. So there's this fantasy of being famous, like being some kind of a hero. The reference to the bulge, I take all of this seriously. None of it is a joke. The bulge is getting an erection. while you are shooting somebody. If he were my patient, I would ask him,

what is sexually exciting about shooting somebody and whizzing the bullet over a crowd of family and children? Is it that sadism is exciting? Having power over people is exciting. I'd want to try to get to the root of that to understand this guy's mind. You know what? There's so much happening in this case.

Remember the old guy at the get-go? that claims he was responsible for the shooting. I did it. I did it raising both hands. Now saying that he was just trying to give the real shooter a chance to get away. Okay, listen to what the alleged shooter says about that. I thought they caught the person? No, they grabbed some crazy old dude that interrogated someone in similar clothing.

I had planned to grab my rifle from my drop point shortly after, but most of that side of town got locked down. It's quiet. Almost enough to get out, but there's one vehicle lingering. Why? Why did I do it? Yeah. I had enough of his hatred.

Some hate can't be negotiated out. If I am able to grab my rifle unseen, I will have left no evidence, going to attempt to retrieve it again. Hopefully they have moved on. I haven't seen anything about them finding it. How long have you been planning this? A bit over a week, I believe. So much for the insanity defense.

He had this thing planned out cold. But my point is, George Zinn, the one that threw investigators off at the beginning, claiming he did it. He was arrested. Now everybody's trashing the FBI director for arresting him. He said he did it. Well, there's a sad sack right there. Okay, bombshell Hermania Rodriguez. He has, George Zinn has caught a few charges himself, hasn't he?

Yeah, this has been another incredible part of this story. As you said, right after the shooting, this man was film saying, I shot him. I shot him. Now, apparently he has told police that he wanted to give the actual shooter time to get away. We have learned that he is someone who has previously caused trouble in the area, and he's now charged with child pornography. That just trilled off your tongue. Did you just say child pornography? Correct. After he was taken into custody right after this shooting, days later, he has been charged with this crime. So Mr. Robinson, you have a right to an attorney.

If you cannot afford one, the court can appoint an attorney to represent you. I have reviewed your declaration of financial status and find that you are indigent. I'm provisionally appointing a Rule 8 qualified attorney to represent you on your case, Mr. Robinson. Along with their filing of their appearance of counsel, the assigned attorneys must file declarations with the court

that outline their qualifications under Rule 8. in Rule 8C, I'm sorry, under Rule 8B and Rule 8C, for a council appointment in a case where death may be a sentencing option. As we go to air tonight, the state still building its case against the alleged Charlie Kirk shooter. If you know or think you know anything about the case, regardless of whether you think it is important or not, please dial 801. 579, 1400, 801, 579, 1400, or go to tips.fbi.I.fbii.gov. Now, we remember an American hero, trooper Jerry Admec, Texas Department of Public Safety, killed in the line of duty, leaving behind a grieving wife, Roxanne, and five children. American hero. Trooper Jerry Adamick.

Nancy Gray signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an I-Heart podcast.