Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - CHARLIE KIRK SHOOTING: JUDGE WINCES @ SHOCK VIDEO, WIDOW EXITS

Episode Date: July 7, 2026

Tyler Robinson stands accused of assassinating conservative activist Charlie Kirk at Utah Valley University just under a year ago.  He's been charged with aggravated murder, felony discharge of a firearm, obstruction of justice, witness tampering, and a violent offense in the presence of a child, with intent to seek the death penalty. Today Robinson laughed and joked with his attorney before testimony began. As the graphic testimony continued, Charlie Kirk's wife cried and she and Kirk's parent left the courtroom. She describes the proceedings as a “painful reminder” of her husband’s death.  Prosecutors have presented  graphic video of the shooting, photos of the rifle linked to Robinson, and a medical examiner’s report.     Joining Nancy Grace today: Josh Kolsrud  - Criminal Defense Attorney and Former Assistant U.S. Attorney, Founder of Kolsrud Law Offices, Co-Host of the Podcast: "No Contest", website: kolsrudlawoffices.com, Facebook and YouTube @KolsrudLawOffices Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst,  Author: "Deal Breaker,"  featured in  hit show: "Paris in Love" on Peacock and "The Valley, Persian Style" on Bravo.   Host : "On The Couch with Dr. Bethany Marshall, " Website: drbethanymarshall.com, Instagram FB & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, Twitter:@DrBethanyLive  Koa Lorimor - Former Army Sniper Joseph Scott Morgan  -  Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan," @JoScottForensic,  Nate Eaton[EE-tuhn] - Idaho- News Director, East Idaho News, Emmy-nominated journalist.  Host of 'Courtroom Insider' on Youtube Dave Mack  - Investigative Reporter, "Crime Stories" See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Tonight, to the Charlie Kirk shooting hearing in the courtroom, the judge physically recoils when he sees shock video. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Apparently the day after the shooting, this mother looks at the images released by the FBI as they were hunting this person down. She thinks it looks like her son calls him. He says he's at home sick for the second day in a row.

He said he was homesick. What did he add? The dog ate my homework. Home sick. That's a week. There's no way that you're not going to recognize your child. I could see the right side of Charlie's shoulder, so not his whole body because he was. underneath the tent so I can only see probably the right side of his body.

He was answering a question, a kid asking him a question, and then I heard a shot fired. What did you see? At that moment, I saw him lean to the left. When you say him, you see Charlie. Charlie? So I saw him go to the left because I could no longer see the right side of his body. Then everybody started getting up and starting to run, and more of a chaos, kind of. that situation.

Joining us tonight an all-star panel, but you just saw what's happening in the courtroom. To Nate Eaton joining us, news director East Idaho News and star of courtroom insider on YouTube, Nate, explain to me why the defendant Tyler Robinson was smirking and laughing and a few feet away Mr. Kirk's widow, Erica, was. sobbing. That's quite the dichotomy, is it not? Yeah, I don't know why he was doing that, Nancy. What I do know is that he was joking with his attorney, appeared to be joking, they were chatting with each other as very serious things were being discussed, including the shooting of Charlie Kirk. There was video being shown in the hearing of Charlie Kirk being shot

and other evidence and video surveillance footage that we're learning about and seeing for the first time during this court hearing. You know, I'm flummoxed. Straight out to Josh Coles Rood joining me, veteran criminal defense attorney, former federal prosecutor, founder of Coles Rood law firm, and star of No Contest Podcast. Coles Rood, what is he laughing about? Well, you know, it's an all-day hearing, right? And there are always going to be moments of levity.

You know, as much as we don't want to admit, you know, Mr. Robinson is a human being. And there are going to be moments where he, you know, may smile a little bit. Now, I looked at the video, you know, this wasn't a burst of laughter, right? There was a short smile that he had with a conversation he was having with his attorney. It wasn't inappropriate for a courtroom, meaning that if I was the judge, I wouldn't necessarily stop the proceedings to ask the defendant, you know, what's funny? Do you find this funny? Like, it wasn't that type of situation. And, you know, I think that we just have to look at this in context. You know, we're looking at one very small. I bet you do, don't you? Look at it in context,

context of Charlie Kirk's dead body shot through the neck and let me correct you. Actually, I'm going to let Nate Eaton correct to you. Nate Eaton, joining us, news director, East Idaho news, Nate, we heard Josh Coles Rood spinning it out, spinning it out, that during a long hearing like this, there are moments of levity. Well, that's BS, technical legal term, because wasn't the laughter and the smirking at the very beginning before the proceedings even started? It was at the beginning, Nancy. Yeah, court hadn't quite started yet. The audience or the gallery was being ushered into the courtroom. Erica Kirk, very somber. Charlie Kirk's parents were there with her Don Jr., Donald Trump Jr.

was there as well. They were all in the courtroom. Oh, dear Lord in heaven, Nate Eaton. This is not a who's who of celebs showing up to pack the courtroom. Don't care. Care about one thing. One thing only, the evidence, the probative evidence.

I need, if I were prosecuting this case, enough evidence for the judge to bind this over, state that there is PC probable cause for this case to be heard by a jury. I don't care if the angel Gabriel descended into that courtroom and sat on the front row, I would arrest him for disturbing the courtroom, handcuffs for the hands and a rope for the wings. Don't tell me who showed up and who was wearing what. Don't go there.

I only want to hear about the evidence. Is that understood? Yeah, well, my purpose in saying that, Nancy, is everybody was very somber. very quiet. Yes, it was, it was a little bit. Okay, back to it. The smirking and the laughing, I'm sorry to cut you off. I actually mean that with you, Nate Eaton. I've got this amount of time to discuss that amount of evidence. So I find it very probative that Tyler Robinson was actually guffawing, laughing, smirking at the beginning of the proceedings. Now, Josh Coles really tried to chalk it off to. It was a long date. No, it wasn't. Also, he also stated that. that there was no laughing. It's my understanding. He was laughing. It wasn't just a, it was a full-on laughter.

Am I wrong? There was some laughter, Nancy. I don't know the exact minute, but there definitely was some laughter. Okay. Also, Josh Coles-Root, in his attempt to turn moldy hay into gold, Rumble Stiltskin,

he stated that it wasn't so bad that the judge stopped the proceedings and reprimanded Robinson because the proceedings hadn't started yet. That's why the proceedings were not stopped. So all of Coles Ridd defenses just got shot down, but I'm going to give him a moment to think about what he said. I'm sure he'll come up with something new.

Let's go straight back into the courtroom. When I got on top, I hopped over the guardrail. I noticed that there was an object, which was sitting right about 10 or 15 feet in from the other side of the guardrail in the ground. that looked out of place to me. And in relationship to where you hopped over the guardrail, what direction was that object?

To the west of the guardrail. Okay. And did you recognize the object? I did. And what was it? It was a red and black screwdriver. And that from our friends at East Idaho News. Nate Eaton, why is a screwdriver important?

Well, Nancy, this is an officer who was working that day when this shots rang out. He heard the gunshot. He ran from his position down to the courtyard where there were thousands of people running. It was chaotic. It was crazy people were crying. He's trying to ascertain what happened here. He looks up to the nearby roof. He works his way up there as he testified. And that's where he finds a screwdriver. Now, why would you need a screwdriver on the roof? It's believed that Mr. Robinson likely used it to get his way onto the roof, to work his way up a stairwell, which was easily accessible to the public. But once you got to the top, you needed to jump over a railing, and then to actually get on the roof,

he likely could have used that screwdriver. Well, you're absolutely right, Nate Aiton. And Joe Scott Morgan, why? A screwdriver? Let's see if we can catch a shot of just anyone walking up the steps to the sniper's den. How do you get in and out of those parking garage doors? Oh, maybe with a screwing. driver. Okay, turn toward the camera. Look this. Oops. I hate when that happens. I bet Josh

Coles Rood does too when your client looks right at a surveillance video. Okay, Joe Scott Morgan joining me, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, the author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and Star of a hit series podcast, Bodybags with Joe Scott Morgan, but he is a death investigator with a death investigator. over 10,000 death scenes under his belt. Why is a screwdriver? Why is it important? Well, I think that it could have multiple utility.

First off, we're talking about Jimmy and a potential lock that he might have to defeat in order to get access to the roof. I've often wondered if he's already been to that roof before in the days leading up to try to assess that position. With that said, I think another potential for that screwdriver possibly, there to break down the weapon. But again, none of this has been completely revealed at this point in time. Now, going back to the lock, if he did, in fact, attempt to jimmy a lock with a screwdriver, Nancy,

toolmarks are going to come into effect here. So the blade of that screwdriver, you think about the business end of a screwdriver, if you're trying to pry something open, that's going to leave a treasure trove, a trace evidence, and impression evidence on the, the lock because you can actually marry that up, almost like a ballistic signature, to that actual screwdriver and the marks that are left behind on the door. That's going to be key here. So I don't know that anything is off the table relative to the screwdriver. It could have multiple utility. And you know what's interesting. I think Coles Rood will agree with this. Every piece of evidence, even if it's just a screwdriver, could have probit

value. I remember a serial killer. I got him on one. I could extrapolate so much from one earring based on where I found the earring. It had been sliced out

of the victim's ear. And the earring was in one place and the body with the other earring still attached was in another place. It really helped me prove that case. My point is, don't discount the screwdriver. Don't. You know, you're right, Nancy, that every piece of evidence, including the screwdriver,

you know, could be essential to a case, but it swings both ways. You know, the screwdriver may actually end up helping Mr. Robinson. We just don't know enough about it right now. For example, you know, where exactly was it found on the roof? Was it near the so-called sniper pad? And how exactly did it allow Mr. Robinson to gain access? to the roof. I don't think that's been explained to the point where we all have an aha moment. Oh, like, you know, yeah, of course, you know, he used a screwdriver to get past a lock or something

like that. Like right now, you know, it's interesting and I think that there may be something there, but we just don't know enough about it to say whether or not it's going to be very probative or not helpful at all. True. Obviously, we don't know yet, but I do know this. I'm sure they're looking to see if it came right out of Daddy's toolbox that he bought at Lowe's, and the only thing missing is that red and black screwdriver that said, I want to go back into the courtroom. Listen. When I got up there and I could see this disturbance to gravel,

to me it looks like a sniper pad, a person that has been laying in a prone position, and you've got markings of elbows, knees, and feet to where somebody was in the line of sight of where Charlie's tent was. Plus also towards the far right of the photo is also a marker where like somebody laid a gun down. Okay. It's like a prone position. East Idaho News inside the courtroom bringing us that video.

Straight out to special guests joining us tonight a former army sniper Koa Loramore. Koa, thank you for being with us tonight. Explain what is a sniper's nest. So your sniper's nest or your sniper's hide is going to be any preset position that you take your shot from. Now, if he was laying down on the roof in the gravel, that's going to leave impressions of his chest, his arms, his legs. And then even if his rifle has bipods right there, that's going to leave impressions in the gravel as well. So you state that in the past you have stated anyway, that it's very important for the sniper to be, comfortable. That video you were just saying, by the way, is from Chard Man on X. And it looks

very sinister right there. It looks very, very sinister. That said, COA, why comfort? Why does that matter? Comfort matters in your sniper's position because you don't know how long you're going to be there. If he was set up to take the perfect shot on Charlie, he could have waited, you know, hours, however long the ceremony was set up before. So you want to be as comfortable as possible so you can wait to take the perfect shot. How do you prepare a sniper's nest? So first you'd survey the area. So you're going to go where your best line of sight to your target is. Then sometimes we'd use a yoga mat, lay it down so we're comfortable on the uncomfortable like ground or uneven ground. And the prone position laying down on the ground flat is probably

the most comfortable position for a human to lay for extended periods of time. Listen, and you're there for heart-wrenching knockouts. The world's biggest stage. And breathtaking triumph. In 2026 FIFA World Cup, the knockout stage. Every match, every moment. Listen on TSN radio. Join the globe.

On the road to the July 19th final. 26, FIFA World Cup. Stream it all live on TSN Radio. Available on I Heart Radio. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. So to you, Nate Eaton, following up on what Coa Lorimer just told us, Nate joining us from East Idaho News, and he is the star of courtroom insider.

How many times do we believe Tyler Robinson had been to the sniper's nest before the shooting? We don't know exactly how many times he went to that specific spot, but we do know he was on the campus that day, according to surveillance footage, at least four times. That includes a visit after the shooting late that night. In fact, it was midnight, around midnight, the next morning, and many believed that he went back to try to retrieve the weapon

that he had left behind near the building that the FBI and investigators had already taken. Straight out to renowned psychoan allies to join. us out of the LA jurisdiction. It's Dr. Bethany Marshall. She is the author of Deal Breaker. You can see her now on Peacock and Bravo. She's the star of a brand new podcast on the couch with Dr. Bethany Marshall, and you can find her at Dr. Bethany Marshall.com. Dr. Bethany have always wondered this. Why do Perps return to the scene of the crime? I don't need to know why when proving or telling that to a Jerry, it's like a dog.

The circles three times and finally sits down. I don't know why. I just know that they do. And it means something. It means something to me. Well, in the case of this perpetrator, he probably knew Charlie Kirk's speaking schedule. He knew that this was an upcoming event.

And that after the commission of the crime, he wanted to sort of revel in the fact that he had actually completed what he had set out to do. And I think in this case, you know, the laughter in the court, he's gleeful. He is not remorseful for what he has done. He is gleeful. He is happy. Dr. Bethany, I'm glad you brought that back up.

Whether he is proven guilty or not guilty, whether he is guilty or innocent, laughing with Charlie Kirk's widow, Erica, a few feet away, at one of the woman. point during the hearing, and Nate, correct me if I'm wrong, she was lying on Charlie Kirk's mom's shoulder, just crying. And he's laughing, whether he's innocent or guilty. That takes, let's just say, balls of size of coconuts. Um, correction, balls of size of coconuts suggest bravery. This would be more like insulting. demeaning, discounting what she has been through while he's laughing, while she's crying a few feet away? Well, it's just to me that he's actually focused on only one aspect of the crime.

He's not seeing Erica Kirk. He's not seeing the entire family. He's not viewing the humanity of it all. And there's total lack of empathy and remorse, Nancy. He's just, he's, it's just a glorification of what he was able to do. Guys, you're seeing footage. Oh, my goodness. You're seeing footage of Charlie Kirk's coffin.

You saw widow Erica kissing his hand. It's just, Joe Scott Morgan joining us, Death Investigator. what they likely had to do to reconstruct his neck. I didn't realize that there had at some point been an open casket. I just feel so bad for her. Yeah, it's haunting.

It truly is. And we'll never know the depth of her pain or any of his friends. But, you know, what they will remember is what they saw, what they saw in those last moments because that is the reality of what we're faced with now coming into this trial or coming into this hearing, certainly.

And, you know, you were talking about just a moment ago, the snickering that's going on and this sort of thing, however you want to frame it. I don't really care because the gravity of all of this is lost on certain people. I think we hear a lot in the news about what they think happened, what may have happened, all these wild conspiracy things, but this is the reality of what you see in here. This is what families deal with every single day in America. And this is portrayed before us in living color here. And this is the reality of it. This is what's left behind. So the key here, though, from a forensic standpoint, is to understand where do the breadcrumbs lie relative to the science? How do they prove or

disprove what actually happened that day and to document it. And that's very, very important so that everybody understands the depth and the gravity of all of this. To Dave Mac joining me, Crime Stories investigative reporter, Nate and Bethany and I were talking about whether Tyler Robinson had been to the sniper's nest before Charlie Kirk was murdered, was assassinated. How heavily was Charlie Kirk's event publicized. Nancy, it was publicized enough that there was a bit of a battle brewing on the campus of UVU. Early enough in the date for September 10th, on September 3rd, the UVU review published a piece about their activities on campus and free speech.

There was opposition to Charlie Kirk appearing on campus well before. We're talking at least a week and before, and the group against Charlie Kirk appearing at the campus started a protest on change.org and had 896 people signed up to prevent him from speaking at a First Amendment free speech event. So there was a lot of activity, but Nancy, the campus was only expecting about 600 students to show up at the event. and yet there were at least 3,000 and probably more in attendance. So they really had an undervalue of what was going on. They didn't quite understand what Charlie Kirk was bringing to campuses across the country. So let me understand, Dave Mack. There was opposition to Kirk speaking.

People wanted to prevent him from speaking at a free speech event. Absolutely. that was common at almost every college campus that Charlie Kirk spoke. There was always a battleground because he wanted to have this discussion, this dialogue. And it brought out people who just don't believe that if you disagree with them, you should be allowed to speak. And so that actually happened in almost every college campus that Charlie Kirk spoke. Yeah, I don't get it, Dr. Bethany Marshall. We have communists.

We have hate groups. We have white supremacists. We have the KKK. We have Nazi groups. We have people burning our beloved flag. And that's okay, right? It's all reprehensible. Why is it they can get away with that?

And Kirk can't have an event. You know what else we have, Nancy? is with our high schoolers, we have debate. People go on debate teams and they debate different points of view. Socrates, Aristotle, all the great philosophers, they debated different points of view. I mean, the idea that somebody comes onto campus as a provocateur is actually good for the students. It actually sharpens their thinking. It sharpens their point of view, whether they agree with him or disagree. I think that what we have with, how Tyler Robinson is somebody who we can't really attach it directly to Charlie Kirk.

We have to say that this is somebody who was pretty much looking for a target. And if we get into the weeds about what Charlie Kirk was saying, what his point of view was, if we agree or disagree, we lose the plot. And that's what this is all about. Straight back into the courtroom. I realized that we probably didn't have our shooter in custody from that moment. I asked dispatch to get on the camera system and to see if anybody was on top of the Lossary building during the time of the incident. Were you advised of anything? I was. Dispatched came back and advised me that there was a male individual on top of the roof that was there at the time of the shooting.

Did they describe what his movements were? They did. They stated that he ran to the edge, dropped down, crawled, got a prone position. I'm going to stop you right there. He ran to the edge. what direction and what edge? Running west and south west of the Losey building, so ran towards the tent of where Charlie Kirk was, so they could get a line of sight,

and then the individual stood up after the shooting and ran northeast on the top of the Losey building. From our friends at East Idaho News, let's see the video of the perp coming down off the top of the building while Nate Eaton describes what that testimony was. explain the significance of what we just heard. Well, this is huge, Nancy, because they were able to pull this surveillance footage and show allegedly Mr. Robinson there on the roof.

You see him coming to the edge, jumping down. Here he starts to run for a minute, but then he starts to hobble or somewhat limp as if he's maybe injured himself right about here is where it stops. He starts to kind of limp, and then he leaves the campus. but he returns hours later, and it was actually ringed doorbell footage from a neighbor in the dark that caught him parking across the street and walking back down, returning to the car, and leaving again. So these cameras really pieced it all together as multiple videos were shown during the hearing. So the video of him going through nearby neighborhoods on foot, cutting across yards and back cuts, was shown in the hearing, correct? Right, yeah.

Back to Coel Loramore joining us, former Army sniper, based on what your understanding of the murder is, what type of weapon was used, and can you explain to us bolt action? Yes, so the type of weapon that was used is a bolt action rifle. So to explain bold action, one movement of this action chambers around. So you shoot, press the trip, trigger, round goes out, you need a chamber another round.

Now your typical AR-15 is going to do that automatically, right? So you're going to shoot on like AR-15, and then a round is automatically going to get chambered. No need to move this. Nate Eaton, speaking of ballistics, was a shell casing recovered in the sniper's nest? No, not there in the snipers den and no area around it. But we did learn, and Joe Scott would probably be able to speak to this, that there were fragments found during the autopsy of Charlie Kirk. Coa Loramore, explain to me.

Coa, everyone, is former Army sniper. The difference in a handgun, a bullet ammunition used in a handgun, as opposed to a long gun. So the ammunition used in a handgun is going to be much, smaller, shoot much shorter distances. This is a 30-0.6 is what believed that Charlie Kirk got shot with. And it's much larger and used for a large game. There is a round called CoreLock made by Remington, which is a very common hunting round.

And it is nicknamed the deadliest mushroom in the woods. That's because the round expands on impact. And this has been used since the 1900s by the United States military and still commonly used by hunters today. Koah, have you ever fired that type of weapon? Yes. Does it have a recoil? Yes, it does have a recoil. It puts your shoulder back a little, nothing your average adult male could not handle.

To Joseph Scott Morgan joining us, jumping off what Coa Loramor just stated about. this bullet being the largest mushroom in the forest. Joe Scott Morgan, Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University. He is the author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. He is the star of a hit podcast Body Baggs with Joe Scott Morgan. And he is a death investigator. Joe Scott explained to me what that would have done as it tore through Charlie Kirk's neck. Well, as it passes through the soft tissue of the neck, Nancy, it's going to create a cavity, if you will. It will, in fact, cavitate and create a tract. We refer to it as a wound track.

It's one of the things that we look for at autopsy. And if you think about the trajectory, we hear a lot about that term. In the morgue, one of the things that we can do, we can determine the flight path of the round upon initial impact on to the surface of the neck. So as it passes through the soft tissue, it'll begin to rip away the tiny little vessels that are contained therein. It can also impact and damage the larger vessels.

You think about things like the carotid and the jugular vein and all those sorts of things. And then once you hit the spine, you're talking about all the surrounding vessels that supply the spine and the spinal cord with blood and also the structure of the spine, getting into additionally into the spinal cord itself. Now, to this point, we have yet to hear everything

that they have regarding this wound track, but this round would in fact be devastating. Coah had mentioned that this round could mushroom. And if it does, remember, once around mushrooms, it increases the caliber size. You hear us talk about 30 caliber and 45 caliber and all these sorts of things. So if you think about around mushrooms,

shrooming, Nancy, that would suddenly go from like a 30 caliber, maybe up to a 35 caliber, maybe up to a 40 caliber, because what you're doing is you're increasing the diameter of this surface and it's ripping and tearing as it's going along down that bullet path. Were you able to tell what that object was in his hand? Yes. Well, not tell what it is. I can see there's an object in that left hand, yes. And could you, knowing what you know about the case today, do you have an idea about? about what that object was? It looks like a rifle or something to that effect, a long object. It looks like a rifle?

Like a long object, like skinny and long. You can see it's like almost like it's covered over something. So you saw the cover, which was the towel, right? Yes, and the shape of it is long. Okay. So you can see a towel, but you can't see an actual gun. I don't know if it was a towel or blanket. I don't know what it was.

But you can't see an actual gun. No, like an awkward. like a form of a gun, like a long object. Dr. Bethany Marshall, do you think we're idiots? She said, well, all you really saw was a towel. Well, I mean, yeah, because he doesn't have x-ray vision, but it's in the shape of a gun. So a towel hit Charlie Kirk in the neck, I mean, honestly.

Yeah, no, we all know what happened on that day. We're all well acquainted with it. And it's just a tragedy. That's what unfolded. I mean, to suggest that we don't know what was under the towel that you couldn't make it out. But you know what, Nate Eaton joining us, a star of courtroom insider on YouTube and news director, East Idaho News. Please tell me, please tell me, the towel was recovered. They did recover the towel, according to the FBI, Nancy.

Not only that, they were able to obtain DNA off of the towel. Now, we don't know if that was sweat, if that was blood when he fell and cut himself or his fingerprints. We don't know exactly what the DNA was, maybe his hair, but the FBI did confirm that they did obtain DNA from the towel. I'm just wondering, Nate, if there's also going to be gunshot residue on the towel, because that would be a prosecutor's dream for the towel to have not only gunshot residue from a recently fired long gun. but also DNA from the defendant. Thoughts? There could be gunshot residue on that for sure. If he kept that towel wrapped around the gun

or even near the gun when it was fired from that rooftop, no doubt that it would have some remnant of it down below. Coeloramor, joining us former Army sniper, can you dismantle a long gun of that nature? Because we see on movies and TV where immediately the sniper breaks down the gun and puts it in a little box that big and just walks off. I don't know if that's possible with this weapon.

So there is multiple long guns, Nancy, that can be broken down. But an older gun in this version, it would be quite hard to disassemble quickly and break down. Because you hold up the weapon you have that is similar to the murder weapon in this case. Okay, yeah, that's not breaking down. And you said earlier that the tripod legs at the beginning would have left a mark, an indentation of some sort in the sniper's nest? Yes, Nancy. So these would be able to stabilize the weapon, so they would go right into the gravel,

which would leave two marks pretty obvious to police right in the gravel, right where he left. So Josh Coles Rood, look at what Coaloramore is holding up. Colesrude, veteran criminal defense attorney. So you're telling me if you put a towel from the holiday in over that, I can't tell it's a gun. Well, I think what she was trying to get at was that we just don't know yet what the evidence means. And, you know, the defense attorney is doing her job. You know, she's calling it a question the evidence because, you know, the security at that location just wasn't what it should have been for an event like this. You know, and had security been tighter, you know, Charlie Kirk may still be a lot.

today. And what we also would have known from better security is, you know, who had access, who was up there. And, you know, because we didn't have any eyes on that location, it just, it means that anybody could have had access, right? Not just Mr. Robinson. And so the defense attorney is creating these reasonable questions about evidence that we just don't know a lot about. Listen. And you're there. For heart-wrenching knockouts. The world's biggest stage! And breathtaking triumph.

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2026 FIFA World Cup. Stream it all live on TSN Radio. Available on IHeard Radio. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Straight out to Dave Mack, joining us Crime Stories investigative reporter. Then in court, a defense attorney's wildest dream comes true. Evidence of a second gun emerging, which could conceivably torpedo the state's case. There's another gun, really?

Does that mean Tyler Robinson didn't fire? The murder bullet? Oh, listen, Dave. I was informed on the radio that we had a shooter in custody. So I thought at that moment I was like, oh, that was kind of fast. Obviously, it was close range probably because we had an individual in custody. Another officer came on said we had an individual in custody. So I started pushing people off the grass out of the courtyard area because I knew that's where the crime scene was. So as we started pushing those guys out, my chief, chief, chief,

long that was right next to me. I looked down and saw an empty pistol holder that was sitting just on top of the grass. And at that moment, things had died down just a split second. I realized that the shot I heard was more of a rifle shot and not a pistol shot. A second gun, the specter of a second shooter. Unbelievable, Nancy, that Christopher Bagley testifies. That's who you were listening to right then, talking about seeing this holster on the ground near the top of the courtyard area, not on the rooftop where investigators found evidence of the den, of the sniper's den, but on the ground. Now, here's the problem, Nancy. We have a holster for a pistol on the ground right there in this area where Charlie Kirk has just been shot. And Fagley did not

collect it as evidence. He did not know who has. belonged to. He didn't know whether it was ever fingerprinted or anything else. He just didn't do anything other than observe a holster on the ground. Josh Coles Rood, I mean, I don't even have to give you a cue for this for Pete's sake. The defense will run wild. It's like giving a dog a bone and they run off with it. Explain. Yeah, let me tell you why. The defense isn't going to say that you know, Charlie Kirk wasn't shot by a rifle, right? What this shows, is a sloppy investigation. And when you can show a jury that the investigation was sloppy,

it creates questions. It creates doubt. You know, why didn't the police collect the evidence? You know, what was there actually a weapon inside of the holster? Whose holster was it? You know, where is it now? Those are all interesting questions that juries will want answers from. And when the police are unable to provide,

those answers that a clever defense attorney is going to say well look if the law enforcement was sloppy here that means they were sloppy over here too where there are also legitimate questions so it called into doubt it calls into the credibility of the investigation itself when they when a law enforcement commits an unforced error all they had to do was pick it up and put it the holster into an evidence bag how hard is that But when you're incompetent, you're not doing your job correctly. Apparently, it's very difficult. You mean like when you're trying to catch the shooter that you just saw jump off a roof,

you don't wade into a sea of people to get an empty holster. Okay, you call it incompetent. Yeah, I wish they had gotten the holster. I call it responding to an assassination. But, hey, that's just me. to co-Lormor, former Army sniper, we cannot positively identify or match the fragment we believe is taken from Charlie's body.

We don't know that yet where the fragment came from, but it was in the autopsy report. That said, we cannot match that fragment to Tyler Robinson's gun, but we can, based on the circumference of the bottom of the bullet, which was not deformed upon impact, we can determine if it came from a long gun, not a handgun that would have fit into a holster as we know it. Explain. Yes, Nancy. So just because you can match the fragment to the rifle doesn't mean the round did not come from that long gun.

Also, the back of the round is going to be wider than your average pistol round. And so comparatively, they're going to be totally different. And you can tell even though the round is going to mushroom and expand when it hits its target, you can tell what size round it is. Okay, hold up the bottom of that for me. So I can see the width of the bottom. See that? See that?

That. That was not. Other end, other end, other end, bottom. There you go. Yes, okay. Joe Scott Morgan, do you see that? He's right. Coalormor is right.

Joe Scott, explain in your scientific jargon what we're saying, because this is what a jury is going to hear. Yeah, so when you're trying to match around to a specific barrel, you're going to look for striations along the long axis of the projectile itself. And those specific strife. creations will match up to the weapon, to the lands and grooves, as it referred to in the barrel, that causes the bullet to spin. Now, that is a very distinctive ballistic signature. One of the problems that has come up with this case, Nancy, is that they are alleging that this round actually

fragmented. So they cannot include or exclude this to this rifle. However, as far as the specific type of round this was, that can be matched up. This is a 30.30 a 0 a 0 a 6. So that can be matched up because apparently they still had the base of the round. I have a mushroom ground right here. If you look at it very carefully, you can see the base of it. Okay. And that's one of the things that they will be measuring to see if it marries up with that round. Now, we're talking about doing further testing here. I don't know what that testing is going to consist of, but it would seem to me that this round has fragmented to the point where they cannot lift any kind of ballistic signature off of these. One of the beauty parts to this, I think, is that, you know, one of the things that

defense attorneys prattle on and on about relative to demonstrations at courtrooms is that they will say that images from autopsies are too prejudicial because of the gore and the blood. They're not going to need that with this, Nancy. One of the things they're going to show in court are going to be radiographic images. So with Charlie's remains, what will have happened is that his body would have been thoroughly x-rayed. They may have even done a CT, and you're going to see that lead storm pop up on that screen in that courtroom when this thing goes to trial, and you're going to see that cavitated area that's blown out through his neck and you'll see those little bits of lead that lead to that actual terminal

event as it goes through cavitating and clipping, clipping vessels in there until, you know, we see what happens in the end when Charlie falls over and he's deceased, bleeding from the neck. Let me see COA, Laura Moore, and Joscoe Morgan in a two shot, please. And Joe Scott, as we're showing you, Coa, please look at the deformed, as we've. say in court, the deformed spent shell. Could you hold that up, Joe Scott? So, COA, you see the circumference of the bottom of that deformed shell right there? Okay, how can you, COA, look at that and tell me, that's not a 22, that's not a 36, that's not a 38. That is more akin to the, quote, deadliest mushroom in the forest from a long gun.

Yes, ma'am. So it's going to measure a similar size to the back of the round here. Now this is fully encased, but the back of the round is going to match the round here before it mushrooms out. See, the way you just said that. Perfect. Okay. Dave Mack, Erica Kirk had to get up and leave the courtroom. When and why?

As the Erica Kirk, as well as as Charlie's parents, they both got up and walked out two different times during the hearing. And it comes down to the shots fired, you know, or the shot fired, rather. The courtroom, the way that the shot was shown, it was turned so that the gallery could not see it, but could hear it. And that caused Erica to leave as well as Charlie's parents. Just the whole idea of this hearing, Nancy, has just brought everything back to the forefront of everything they've had to defend. And, you know, Charlie Kirk's parents have been very quiet. They don't do a whole lot out, you know, and it's just been devastating, I guess, is probably the only real word that fits. Dave, I hate to interrupt your pontificating.

But when Erica got up and left along with Charlie Kirk's parents, is that when the judge visibly recoiled and winced when he saw the shooting video? It was right before that, Nancy. And the wincing that has caught everyone by surprise is because, you know, and you've mentioned this in past. You guys have seen everything in court. And this was such a shock that even the judge prepared to know what was happening still was shocked enough that he recoiled. And that's what has caused the family so much pain that they had to get up and leave. Just like my analyst, Dr. Bethany Marshall, explain what is happening when it's so bad. The judge himself, who has seen it all, actually recoils on the bench and Erica Kirk has to get up and leave.

You know, Nancy, it's a moment of humanity. It's attaching to the victim and to the families and to the reality of what happened. You know, we think of post-traumatic stress disorder as something that arises when something bad happens to us. But really, the criteria is when we see something horrible happen to a loved one. That's what causes PTSD. are soldiers returning from the war is not because something bad happened to them. It's because something bad happened to their comrades.

They saw something that was devastating to somebody that they cared a great deal about. And I would imagine this judge, as with all of us, have attached ourselves to Charlie Kirk. We know that he was a provocateur. We know that he went to various campuses. He engaged in debates with students. And I think there, you know, Nancy, I think there,

I think there's a certain amount of caring about debate, theory, politics, all of that that comes into play when you go to campus after campus and you engage in college, with college students. You're trying to help them sharpen their own point of view. So this is somebody maybe even the judge came to care about, and it was traumatic for him to see what happened to trial. I can't speak to what was going through the judge's mind, but Dr. Bethany, even now all these years later,

just the thought of that video makes my stomach hurt because my fiance was shot in the head, the neck, the back, and we often protect our necks, and it's such a vulnerable area of the head, the body and to think of that bullet that Coelora Moore and Joe Scott Morgan were describing is the biggest mushroom in the forest slicing through Charlie Kirk's neck and maybe I'm, you know, projecting what happened to Keith onto this. But it is very upsetting. No wonder she got up and left the room. No wonder the judge recoiled. Good luck with that, Cole's Rude. When you've got a

trial judge, I don't mean an appellate judge, I don't mean an administrative judge, I don't mean a probate judge who just sits on the bench and reads and talks. I mean a trial judge that has seen it all. When that judge recoils, Coles Root, the defense has a problem. Well, you know, let's look at what happened in context, right? You know, there was an issue with the video and the judge indicated he was not going to allow it. And it wasn't because it was so gory, which it obviously is. It's because it had been spliced and put together. And we've all seen it happen before where a that's just what was claimed. We don't know that it was spliced and put together. And we don't know the origin of some of the video, but it is public video. That's what the prosecution is arguing.

I know where you're going. You're claiming that the defense cannot authenticate the video and therefore it should not be allowed in. But however, that's not what I asked you. That said, I'm sure I understand why you're dodging the question about how awful the video is. We wait as justice unfolds. If you know or think, you know anything about the assassination of Charlie Kirk. The state is still building its case. This is just a preliminary hearing.

We haven't even struck a jury yet. Dial toll-free, 800-2-25-3-24. 800. 2255-324. We remember an American hero, Deputy Sheriff Erica Serato, Montgomery County Sheriff, Texas. Just 24.

Killed in the line of duty after six years on the force, leaving behind grieving parents, Letitia and Rodolfo. American hero, Deputy Sheriff, Erica Serato. Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. Nancy Gray is signing off for tonight,

but I'll see tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend. This is an I-Heart podcast, guaranteed human.