Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Cherish Perrywinkle kidnap/murder: Mark Klaas speaks out

Episode Date: July 7, 2017

When Cherish Perrywinkle disappeared from a Walmart in 2013 it took several hours before Jacksonville, Florida, police issued an Amber Alert. By the time word went out, the 8-year-old was likely already dead. Nancy Grace talks to Mark Klaas, the father who has crusaded for better laws to protect children from predators, about what can be learned from the Perrywinkle case. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. You can hear the fear and panic in Rainn Periwinkle's voice shortly after her daughter, Cherish, disappears from the Walmart. I had a strange feeling about him when I first met him. He befriended them both, offering to buy them snacks at a Walmart store. Instead of doing that, they say he took 8-year-old Cherish Periwinkle and killed her. I feel responsible. Her body found in a wooded area. This is Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Donald Smith is charged with murder and kidnapping, and he is a registered sex offender.

Smith's trial has been delayed several times already. Cherish. I'll see you in heaven, and I hope you'll remember me. I guess every three days. You know, to be fair, let's just say once a week. I am in a Target or a Kroger or a Publix or a Costco or a Walmart with my children. And it's just me and them. I've been on crowded New York streets many, many times, in museums, you name it. And I'm wondering about that moment when you realize within that crowd that you really are alone. Your child is gone. That is the story of a little girl named Cherish Periwinkle.

An eight-year-old little girl. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. With me, long time friend and champion. I guess that's really the only word I could use to describe him. He's a champion. Mark Klass is with me. He went to hell and looked the devil in the face and came back to this earth as a champion for victims, for crime victims. Well, I guess that says it all about how I feel about you, Mark Klaas, founder of Klaas Kids.

After your little girl, Polly, went missing and was murdered. From that point on, your life has been about one thing, and that is helping to find missing people no matter what it takes. Thank you for being with me, Mark. Well, thank you for having me, Nancy. And I can assure you it's a mutual society. I've enjoyed knowing you and working with you in the past, and I'm very excited about this opportunity as well. You know, Cherish Periwinkle was with her mother, and everybody starts a story at Walmart, but that is not where the story starts.

The story does not start in Walmart. The story actually starts in, I think it was a family dollar or a dollar general. And Cherish's mom had her there and they were buying some clothes for Cherish and her sister. And it's the mom and the two girls. And they try to go to checkout and the mom doesn't have enough money. And in steps a man. And he says, oh man, you're having a problem. You know what? Let me cover that. And you know what else? I'm about to meet my wife up the street at Walmart. Bring your girls up there. I've got some money. I'm going to buy you guys some clothes. So Rain, Periwinkle, and her three daughters, including Cherish, get together, and they go up to the Walmart.

There you see a gray-haired man, looks like an old grandpa donald smith inside the walmart and it's a it's a superstore right mark it's one of those big ones that has you know places to eat in it you can get your hair cut there just the works there's probably a tire place everything and they're in there shopping and And I've looked at the surveillance video very, very carefully. And the guy says they've been shopping for a while and they're waiting on his wife to get there. And he goes, hey, you know what? I don't want to make your kids wait anymore. Let's go up front to the McDonald's. Come on, Sheriff. Let's go up there and get something to eat. And the mom says, okay okay i'll be right up there it's within the same structure

it's you know what 80 feet away and she never sees cherish again cherish is kidnapped brutally kidnapped, brutally raped and murdered, and there's no doubt about that. And her body is then submerged halfway down beneath a tree in a swampy, muddy, all I can say is a ditch. That's what happened to Cherish that fast. You know, we can blame the mom. Sure, I see things that she did wrong. Of course. But, you know, Mark, she's not the villain in this scenario. He is. And he was a villain long before he came into contact with Cherish and her mother. Because he was already a top-tier registered sex offender in the state of Florida.

I don't get it. I don't get why he's out walking around to start with. And if I'm correct, his previous offenses were for crimes on girls, correct? That's correct, Nancy. And, you know, as bad as that sounds, I mean, right now here in the state of California, there is an effort supported by all of the POAs, all of the DAs associations that in effect will gut Megan's law and basically take two thirds of the individuals that are currently registering on a yearly basis and that the public has access to and eliminate them from the from the from the roles altogether. So we're starting to see a trend in this country. And California is oftentimes a bellwether state of dumbing down great laws like Megan's law. So we won't even have those kinds of protections anymore.

Mark, why is this happening? Well, Nancy, I think one of the reasons is that we have an entire generation of people that have grown up in a very safe society. You know, when Polly was kidnapped back in 93, we were pretty much in the middle of a crime epidemic in this country. We had crime rapes for violent and nonviolent crime that had really never been seen in this country before. And as a result, a lot of laws, Megan's Law, the Amber Alert, ultimately, truth in sentencing, three strikes and you're out were passed to hold criminals accountable for their actions.

And over the course of the next several years, we put that percentage of individuals who commit heinous crime behind bars and kept them behind bars, and crime rates absolutely plummeted. So here we are 20 years later in a situation where we kind of live in a relatively safe society. We're not seeing the kinds of crimes that we've ever seen before in this country. There's 200,000 fewer children being reported missing every year now than there were back in the day. And I think people are complacent. And as a result of that, governments are easing up on criminal justice statutes and criminals are no longer being held accountable. And we're seeing crime rates go up again, yet again. I guess it will take cases like Cherish Periwinkle's murder to be publicized to make lawmakers think twice.

It'll take more crime victims before people come to their senses on the laws you are describing. If you don't believe me, take a listen to Cherish's mother when she calls 911. 911 Robinson. Hi, that Walmart. I'm in Cherish. I've been taken. What do you mean? Taken by a stranger. I can't find her. Okay, ma'am. How did... You say you're at the Walmart on Olin Turner? Yes, I am. Okay, where did you last see her at?

Walmart. I met a man today at Dollar General. He saw that I was struggling to buy them some clothes. He drove us here to buy us some clothes. And the only reason I went with him because he said his wife was going to be here. Because I told him I don't take rides with strangers. Okay, ma'am. And her last name? Can you spell that for me, please?

And is she a white female, black female? Excuse me? Is she a white or black female? What color is she wearing? I don't remember what clothes she's wearing because I'm panicking right now. I'm trying to look pathetic. Okay, and she was last seen with this man? Yes.

He said he was going to McDonald's and he hasn't been there because the store is closed right now. Okay, is he a white man or a black man? A white man. He's got white short hair and he's got dark eyebrows. You said dark short hair? No, he's got white hair and dark eyebrows. I had a strange feeling about him when I first met him. He took her to the dressing room twice, and I was hoping that she would be okay.

And I was looking at the shoes shoes and I didn't want him to think that I was overly protective freaking out but now they're not here and I find it very odd because he knew that okay ma'am what kind of vehicle does he drive it's a white fan that do you remember any stickers or anything on the side of the van? Anything that you can remember at all? Did it have tenant windows or anything? No, it's got carpet in the van. I didn't take a good look.

Sorry. You said what? I didn't take a good look at the van. Okay, do you remember what, did you see any tag on it or anything? Was it a Florida tag? No, I didn't look at that. I feel like a fool. Okay, can you remember what he had on?

No, I don't remember anything because I'm panicking right now. Okay, ma'am, what's your name? My name is... He said his name is Dawn. He said he was supposed to meet his wife here and his wife never showed up and I couldn't figure out why. His wife didn't even show up at Dollar General. And he told you that y'all were going to meet his wife at the Walmart?

Yes. First she was supposed to show up at Dollar General and then he was going to meet his wife at the Walmart. Yes. First, she was supposed to show up at Dollar General, and then he was going to meet with her at Walmart. And we've been here probably two hours. And she didn't show up. And I had this cart full of clothes that he said he was going to pay for with a $100 gift card. And I had a bad feeling.

I thought, well, I feel like pinching myself because this is too good to be true. So I got to the checkout. He's not here. He isn't here. I'm hoping he's not raping her right now. Cause I've had that done to me. It's not fun. She's supposed to go to California in the morning.

Who the plane? And he knows, as I told him this, he knew when the store was closing. I had a bad feeling about him. Okay, how long have you been looking for him? When was the last time you saw him? How long ago? About half an hour ago. Have you been looking for her for a half an hour? Yes. There's nobody in the store and he knew the store was closing. He said he was going to McDonald's. She went with him. I should have told her to stay with me. He's going to the McDonald's inside the store. Yes, there's a McDonald's

inside the store. He wasn't here. Somebody said they sold him, but he's not here. He should have had the, uh, the nerve to stay in here. Wait, he must know that I'm panicking by now. Okay, ma'am, where are you in the store now? Are you outside or where? No, I'm in the front of the store. I think I need to hang up because... No, ma'am.

Are you a white female, black female? What shirt do you have on? A 5' five eight what color shirt do you have on I have on a short black polka dot dress and brown flip-flop sandals I have long red hair are you right in front of the store? Excuse me? Who are you talking to? A Walmart employee. They're talking to my girls because I haven't had anything to eat. What did you say, ma'am?

I haven't had anything to eat, so the Walmart employee was talking to my girls. Talking to your who? My girls. Okay, you have more kids with you? Yes have two my other ones i think he i think he took her okay ma'am you you think she's been taken you say you have other kids with you yes i do he was he was uh he was giving too much attention. He wanted her to buy these really tall shoes that were women's shoes, and I told him no. I said, they're too high for her. I wouldn't even wear shoes that high.

Maybe he was grooming her. I hope to God he doesn't kill her,. I hope to God he doesn't kill her. I hope to God he doesn't rape her. Okay, and when did you meet him today? I met him at Dollar General on Edgewood. I was struggling with my money to buy the girl some clothes, and he saw what I was doing, and he waited for us outside the store. And he said that he was waiting on his wife to show up.

And so I waited around to meet her, and she didn't show up. And then he said he was going to give us a ride over here to Walmart. And then we waited in the parking lot for maybe 20 minutes for her to show up. She didn't show up. So we all went into the store. We've been here about two hours and she didn't show up. And I don't understand why he would leave right now, unless he's got a rape rate killer. That's the only reason. And I'm wasting my time standing here. You're not wasting your time, ma'am. We have officers on their way to you.

I can't remember what I'm wearing. I need to sit down and be calm and close my eyes and try to remember what I'm wearing. Okay, ma'am, just stay in front of the store and, yes, try to think about what she's wearing and what he's wearing so when the officers get there you can tell them, okay? Yeah. Okay, can you think of anything else about the van or anything? It had a line around the van as if it were maybe a metal, a metal, not a sticker, but maybe, I don't know how to explain. Like a pinstripe?

You remember what color the line was? I think it was dark, maybe like a silver. And it had a big space in the middle of the van where he had taken out a couple of seats. And he put my stroller in there, or I put the stroller in there. I don't want him to kill her. I don't want to be one of those parents that are going through this. I feel responsible because I told him when I first met him that I was a little bit scared of him because I thought he was waiting to rob us outside the Dollar General because

he was just staying there. And he said, well, if you really want that dress, I'll go get it for her. I should have told him no. My girls need clothes so bad. I let him do it, but I'm so sorry. Now these ladies have to put all the clothes back in the store. Can you remember anything else about him? Whenever you were talking to him, did he sound funny? Like you had an accident accent or anything or he works for Haber Jacks.

He said he worked for Haber Jack. Yes. Did he say where they lived? No, I don't remember that. He said his wife is from the Virgin Islands. We had a little chat in the van on the way over. And did he say he lived on that side of town or anything? He said he didn't know this part of town. He wasn't sure about this part of town.

Oh, my gosh. He knows the store is closed. He knows McDonald's is closed. Where in the world would he take... I don't see the van in the world would he take? I don't see the van in the parking lot or anything where y'all left it. Well, have you been outside to the parking lot? I went outside the door, but I don't I don't think I see the van. That's okay. Yeah, he took her. He took it away. Okay. Who are you speaking with, ma'am? I'm speaking to a Walmart employee.

Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Are you outside now, ma'am? Yeah, there's two police officers out here, two police cars. Okay, go ahead and speak with officers thank you even after this 9-1-1 call mark class the response to rain periwinkle's emergency call was delayed by police officers they were saying they were suggesting maybe the mom was confused maybe the child was in this i don don't know what happened, but their response was delayed. After that, there was a seven week internal investigation that reveal the Jackson

Sheriff's office doubted the mom's story because she, Mark, was in the middle of a custody battle over the kids. So they just assumed, hey, she's making this up. And there was a delay in getting and saving Cherish Periwinkle. Mark, did you know that part? Well, I did know that part. I'll tell you, the ironies abound heavily in this case. I mean, she was taken out of a Walmart, which is where the whole Code Adam program was born in 1994. And that, in fact, is a lockdown of the store once a child is discovered to have been missing. So the first thing that should have been available to law enforcement when they finally did arrive at that scene should have been the surveillance video. They should have

easily been able to look at that surveillance video, see this man walking out with this little girl, and then take the appropriate action, which obviously in this case would have been to ask for an Amber Alert to be activated. And they failed to do any of those things. Mark Klass, I know you know all this like the back of your hand, but our listeners may not. Could you explain the genesis of Code Adam? Well, the genesis of Code Adam was the disappearance of Adam Walsh back in, I believe, the very early 80s or perhaps the mid-80s in Hollywood, Florida. He was with his mother at a Sears store, and she left him alone in an aisle so that he could play with some toys while she did some more serious shopping. And when she came back a very few minutes later to find him, he was absolutely missing. Adam, they were never able to get a successful conviction on who had committed that crime against Adam, but it ultimately launched his father, John's career as one of the great

crime fighters of the last half of the 20th century. And then Code Adam then became a template to respond and react when a child goes missing. Things like closing the store down, putting employees on an extra alert, and immediately notifying law enforcement so that they can have a timely response. Mark, speaking about being lulled into everyone with me is Mark Klass, tireless victims rights advocate. Even knowing what I know, there have been times, now the twins are now nine, that I would let them be together on one row and I go to the next row.

And I time myself as to only be gone for three minutes. But the truth is, really, they can be gone in three minutes. They can be gone in three minutes. But they're together, Nancy, and it's much more difficult to control two children, especially two children who I'm sure are as aware as your children of the responses of strangers, individuals they don't know, etc. It would be very, very difficult for them to bamboozle those kids and get them outside. The great danger is when one child is by themselves and really has no other resources than their own young mind. You know, I'm looking right now as we're talking, Mark,

I'm looking at this guy walking out the door of the Walmart superstore with the little girl beside him with her beside him and again everybody's attacked the mom yeah the mom made mistakes but the mom isn't the killer here yes the mom made mistakes but she's not the killer she described that he kept they were looking for clothes and he kept wanting to get the little girl still like high heels. And she would say, no, no, that that wouldn't be right. And I've reviewed the video over and over and over, Mark. And so there's the two other little girls and the mother. But even when they're all together, it's like he gets her off to the side. His focus is all on this one eight-year-old girl.

It's very obvious. Then the surveillance video switches and you can see them walking to his vehicle in the parking lot. It's all on video. One has to wonder how law enforcement misconstrues that into some kind of a performance to gain an advantage in a custody battle. It doesn't even make sense. It seems to me that you get into that situation, you see that video, and the first thing you do is you respond accordingly. You don't start looking for background information and things to make it not be what it appears to be. There are so many inherent problems as it goes with the Amber Alert. And if law enforcement doesn't do their due diligence, doesn't do their duty immediately and respond immediately, then the chances of recovering a

child diminish tremendously. What are the stats on that, Mark? If it's been 10 hours, 24 hours, what are the stats on the likelihood of recovering the child alive? Well, here's the problem in a nutshell. 74% of children that are murdered as a result of abduction will be dead within the first three hours. I think 99% will be dead within the first 24 hours, but it's the three hours that are critical. And the reason it's so critical is because in order to activate an Amber Alert in any state in the United States, the jurisdictional agency really has no authority whatsoever. They can make a recommendation and then send that up the ladder to the Amber Alert coordinator for the state who has to be located, has to be notified, and has to be brought up to speed on the case before any kind of a determination is going to be made whether an Amber Alert should be issued or not.

And all of that takes up huge chunks of time. So unfortunately, it's a situation where if an Amber Alert is going to be activated anywhere in this country, it's going to be somewhere between four to five hours before the alert is activated, which means that the children that need the Amber Alert most, children like Adam, children like Polly, are not going to be able to take advantage of it. They're not going to be able to be saved by the Amber Alert. The children that are most likely to be saved by the Amber Alert are children that are engaged in custodial battles, children that have acrimonious parents that are trying to, you know, one's doing one thing, one's doing another thing, the very things I guess you were accusing Mrs. Periwinkle of doing. But the reality is, is that those kids aren't going to be harmed anyway.

So what they've done is they've created a program that originally had great intention of benefiting kids like Polly and kids like Adam that get no benefit from them whatsoever, but they become a great PR device for Amber Alert coordinators who can say, well, you know, we had a 99% success rate because they had all of the information that they need. One of the conditions you need to meet for an Amber Alert is you need to have a vehicle description and or a license plate number. Well, predators don't generally do that. In this case, they did have this description, but generally they don't. You know, so many people fail this eight-year-old little girl. And when I say eight year old little girl I think of Lucy who's just turned

nine my little girl because the response to the mom's devastating 9-1-1 call was delayed by police officers who didn't believe her they thought she was lying because she was in the middle of a custody battle, fighting to keep her children. Then the media were not notified of the Amber Alert for hours, hours after the little girl disappeared. More officers were disciplined over that. I don't know what the failure was there. The vehicle that he had, I believe, had been used in other crimes. Listen to this. The same guy had been released from jail less than one month before, where he served only 438 days on felony child abuse and impersonation of an officer. He had been out a little over 400 days. He has been a registered sex offender since 1993 for trying to kidnap a

little girl. I mean, his arrests go back as far as 1977, where he was convicted of indecent assault on a little girl under 16. That was 1977, and it goes on and on. He went to prison again in 92 for attempted kidnapping. He was convicted on that charge in addition to two counts of showing obscene material to a child. I mean, it just goes on and on. And here he is wandering around Walmart. I don't get it. I don't get it. And what this child lived through before she was murdered is awful.

There are blood stains on the carpet of his car, of his white van. And you know what? There's no telling how many children he has raped and molested that we don't even know about, Mark. There's no telling how many children really out there that may be dead. You think this is the first child he killed? I know it wasn't the first child he raped. That's very telling because what happens with these characters is that the nature of the crimes tend to escalate.

We're talking about a guy that had a 40-year history of escalating criminal activity. They learn at a certain point, Nancy, that you don't leave the evidence behind, that you don't leave the child alive so that the child can ultimately point you out or testify against you. That if you want to stay out of prison, the way you stay out of prison is you become a stealth predator. You take the children, you take the children under the veil of darkness and you get rid of them. So you're exactly right. How many victims were there, victims that will never be able to tell their story,

that you'll never be able to tell their story, kids that are missing and will continue to be missing probably forever and ever. This is what I know about Cherish Periwinkle, because I have reviewed the documents and much of the evidence in her case, although it has not gone to trial yet. Cherish Periwinkle's murder is nauseating. There are over 190 pages of documents, nearly a thousand photos in discovery right now. We know that specifically this eight-year-old little girl's body was found partially clothed, submerged in about six inches of water in a tidal creek, like a ditch, hidden under a log and weighted down by asphalt chunks.

An eight-year-old little girl. We learned that he was covered in scratches. We learned that his clothes were soaking wet and that the water, I guarantee you, the water from his clothes, the sediment in his clothes and shoes, are going to be compared to the sediment where he allegedly dumped her body. By putting her body in the water, Mark, you know it was in the hopes that she wouldn't be found and that the water would wash away evidence. There's no doubt in my mind. What do you make of that? No, I think you're absolutely correct. I think that his flaw

in this particular case was that he was so desperate for a new victim that he exposed himself. And I think that, you know, in retrospect, if you were to look back, he probably would play this out very differently. But, you know, it is what it is. This guy has been caught, in retrospect, if he were to look back, he probably would play this out very differently. But, you know, it is what it is. This guy has been caught. Thank goodness he will never have an opportunity to molest another child. You don't think so, Mark? Wouldn't you think that after his first conviction? Hey, they put him away.

He'll never get out again. But he got out once, twice, three times, and now Cherish is dead. Well, has there ever been a better argument for the death penalty, Nancy? No. I mean, seriously, has there? No, there has not. Because finally, you know, that's how you put a stop to these guys. And unfortunately, that's the only way you put a stop to these guys.

I don't want to take you and me to a dark place, but I'm going to. This guy's body was covered in scratches. You know what that means. As this child was raped, as this child was murdered, she was fighting to live. And she ended up dead, submerged in water this guy has been let out let out let out let out and I want justice Mark and I tell you I just don't know how to get it in this case because he should never have been left out 400 days 400 days on yet another child abuse case and you're so sure he'll go away for good

this time really i don't know you know that's 300 days more free he had than the guy that killed my daughter had i mean he was out 90 days before he finally decided he was going to take out folly i don't understand it either, Nancy. I don't understand why you get a serial predator, somebody with a recidivist history that goes back decades and decades and decades, that escalates all along the line, and they continue to find reasons to allow these people back out onto the streets, knowing full well exactly what's going to happen. Not knowing who the victim's going to be, but knowing full well exactly what's going to happen. Not knowing who the victim's

going to be, but knowing full well that they're going to kill, they're going to rape, and they'll probably do it multiple times unless they slip up like this character did. I understand that. That's why I, that's why you have been fighting all of these years, Nancy, to hold these people accountable for their actions. But as much as we fight, as hard as we fight, as real as our arguments can be, there are those out there that feel that it's society's fault or that dad didn't give them enough hugs or that there's some other social reason that can be remedied by rehabilitation or by counseling or by a minimal time in prison. But it never works. It never works. And we find ourselves in these horrible cycles going again and again and again and again. And unfortunately, in my case, my little girl was the end game for this guy. Well, I say the end game, but you know what? He's still alive in prison.

He's living in an environment right now where our governor and our legislature in California are doing everything they can to either, A, eliminate the death penalty, which then I believe would ultimately make him eligible for parole or be find other reasons to empty out our prisons by dumbing down the criminal justice legislation that exists. So, you know, is there an answer? I don't know if there's an answer. Does it infuriate me as much as it infuriates you? I don't know what we can do except keep fighting the good fight. You know, Mark, another thing. Sometimes I've noticed that, let me just say normal people.

Normal. Not you and not me. Okay. I call it crime. Violent crime only happens to low rent people. Okay. I've noticed it. It's anecdotal.

Like, oh, yeah, she was in a bad area. She shouldn't have been there. He shouldn't have done this. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It just, you know, anything. And you know why? I don't fault people for that. You know why I think they do it?

I think they do it so in their mind they can go, that's never going to happen to me because I don't fill in the blank. I never would let my kid walk to the food stand in the Walmart. I would never do X. And I think it makes them feel safer or better. I don't know what. But I think you have to live this life and, you know, walk two moons. Walk two moons in my moccasins. I always told her not to talk to strangers and that I would always be there to protect her. And you know what? She didn't talk to strangers. A stranger busted into her bedroom and he took her.

And you know what? I wasn't there to protect her. So it takes more than platitudes. It takes more than words. It takes action. And it takes commitment. And it takes an understanding on the part of the public in general, that terrible things can happen to very, very good people. And the only way we can stop that is to be diligent in our commitment to keeping innocent people safe from those that are horrible. I've got to tell you something, Mark. I'm very upset about what you're saying, and I know you're telling the truth. I don't have any reason to doubt you. I'm very upset about trying to, that there is movement afoot to water down the law,

where these people are going to be out. They're going to get out back on the street. And there are going to be so many innocent victims that are going to live through what I live through every day. They're going to live through what you live through every day. I just don't understand why we have to repeat this. The preliminary reports, crime reports from the FBI for the last two years have indicated and in fact, they've proven that both violent and nonviolent crime in California is escalating. It's going up. So those victims already exist. Those people that

are walking in your shoes and that are walking in my shoes are only now getting used to the idea and trying to get a grip on what happened to them because violent offenders are being put back on the street and they're committing violent offenses at an escalating rate. I want to ask you one last question do you ever quote get over it quote do you ever go a period of days where you don't think about poly i mean because i don't and for peopleolly. I mean, because I don't. And for people that haven't lived through it, they think there's something wrong with you. Sometimes I think, is there something wrong with me?

But I keep remembering. And when I hear cases like this, I think about it again. It's all fresh, even this many years later. I don't get over it. And I think about it all the time. I mean, my life has been surrounded by a 12-year-old little girl for the last 25 years. Wow. But, you know, I mean, i don't know nancy it's made me a better person because it's given me more empathy than i've ever had it's given me a greater understanding than i've ever had it's

given me a cause and it's given me a commitment but oh the price that one pays for those kinds of things it's just unfathomable. And sure, it hurts. It'll always hurt. There's always a hole in your heart. You can kind of recover, but you never fully recover because it's always there. The hurt's there.

The pain's there. The guilt is there. I got to say this, Mark. Just talking to you, it gives me strength. It gives me strength to do another podcast. It gives me strength to report on another case. It gives me strength to battle another politician.

Just hearing your voice and listening to you speak gives me strength. And I pray to God that whoever hears you today, that you empower them the way you are empowering me. Thank you, friend. Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an I Heart Podcast.