Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Child Sex Perv Talks Delphi Murders of Little Girls

Episode Date: February 15, 2022

An Indiana man accused of child exploitation and child pornography, says police told him he was the last person to communicate with one of two girls killed in Delphi, Indiana, in 2017. In a jailhouse interview with HLN, Keegan Kline says police told him that his fake “anthony_shots” social media profile was the last communication with Liberty “Libby” German, 14. Libby and her friend, Abigail Williams, 13, were found murdered near the Monon High Bridge in Delphi, in February 2017. Kline has not been charged in the Delphi case, nor named a suspect.Joining Nancy Grace Today: Wendy Patrick - California prosecutor, author “Red Flags” www.wendypatrickphd.com 'Today with Dr. Wendy' on KCBQ in San Diego, Twitter: @WendyPatrickPHD Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, www.drbethanymarshall.com, New Netflix show: 'Bling Empire' (Beverly Hills) Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder, ColdCaseCrimes.org, Twitter: @ColdCaseTips Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan" Max Lewis - Reporter, FOX59 (Indianapolis), Twitter/Instagram: @MaxLewisTV, Facebook.com/MaxLewisTV Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Abby and Libby, two names I have not forgotten. Abigail Abby Williams, Liberty Libby German. People often refer to the Delphi murders generically, but we're talking about two little girls ages 13 and 14 that lost their lives at the Delphi Bridge. Their case is still not solved.

This Valentine's Day, five years ago, their bodies were found. All these two little girls did was go for a walk. Their family dropped them off. How could everything go so wrong? In the last hours, a bombshell interview with one guy who allegedly was communicating with the two little girls or at least one of them pretending to be someone their age. This guy confesses that he routinely communicated with underage girls, I'm talking 13, 14, 15, to try to get their addresses, to try to meet up with them, to try to get them to send him naked photos or semi-clothed photos. Yeah, he's a perv. Is he a killer? Was he actually communicating with Libby the day she's killed. That's pretty damning evidence. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. The lawyer for 27-year-old

Keegan Klein insists his client had nothing to do with the two murders. But is there ever a coincidence in criminal law? First of all, I want you to take a listen to a bombshell interview, a portion from WTHR. This is him, Keegan Klein, talking from behind bars. Listen. Klein is still in the Miami County Jail on those unrelated charges. And now he's talking on camera for the first time, acknowledging the Delphi investigation in a jailhouse interview

with CNN. Why do you think investigators are putting so much focus on you right now? I have not a clue because they, I think it's because they said I was the last person to talk to her is what they've told me. And then Klein says investigators haven't threatened any charges against him for Abby and Libby's murders. And while he's admitted to cheating or rather creating the Anthony shots profile to get inappropriate pictures, he says that's where the crime ends. Were you ever trying to meet these girls in real life that you were talking to? No, never. Did you have anything to do with the murders of Abby or Libby? Not at all. I gave up my DNA, a hair follicle test. I've done everything they wanted me to.

We reached out to state police tonight to ask if they've collected DNA samples from Klein and if Klein's Anthony Schatz profile was the last to talk to Libby before the murders. They say they can't confirm either statement. We're going to go back to that interview in just one moment. You are hearing Keegan Klein, who is his lawyer, letting him talk to any reporter or anybody behind bars? You were hearing that from WTHR that got it from CNN. With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now. Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, host of Today with Dr. Wendy, KCBQ, and author of Red Flags on Amazon at WendyPatrickPhD.com. Dr. Bethany Marshall, Psychoanalyst to the Stars.

You can find her at DrBethanyMarshall.com, star of a hit new series on Netflix, Bling Empire. Cheryl McCollum, founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute, Years in the Trenches, Fighting Crime. You can find her at ColdCaseCrimes.org. Joe Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and host of a brand new hit series on iHeart, Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan.

But first, to Fox 59 reporter Max Lewis. You can find him on Insta, at MaxLewisTV. Max, thanks for being with us. Right now, five years have passed, and it seems like everybody is in the dark. The local police still have not released the full video or the full sound of who we believe is the killer. This guy, Keegan Klein, his place was searched, I believe, in 2017, a couple of weeks after the girls were murdered. But he wasn't arrested until 2020. What's going on?

Yeah, I don't know. I think there's a lot of frustration from, you know, the entire public about because there is so just we don't have a lot of information. And Indiana State Police have been really tight-lipped, especially in the past couple of years. They have almost had a complete, you know, lockdown of information. Yeah. Has that really helped anything? Well, some would say probably not because we're still here five years later. And the families, you know, who I just talked to, you know, within the past few weeks, they still don't have the answers that they're looking for and the ones that they really desperately want. You know, to you, Cheryl McCollum, we hear that a hair sample has been requested. I find that really interesting because when I would want somebody's DNA to match

up to sperm or whatever fluid or DNA I could get, I find that really interesting that they specifically asked for hair. What do you think, Cheryl? As a crime scene investigator, I can tell you the only way I would ask for that is to cross-check it with the hair that I found at the scene. So it looks like, to me, they're trying to put him at that crime scene. You know, to Dr. Bethany Marshall, please, I set up the profile. He all but admits that he's speaking to, it's either Libby or Abby that day, and I think it was Libby. He admits by doing this, setting up the profile, that he stole this male model, now a police officer, by the way, photo and created the

Anthony underscore shots profile to get naked photos from little girls. But if you look at it, apparently he was trying to meet up with them and get their home addresses too. Yeah, Nancy, it wasn't just getting photos of underage girls and over a hundred of them, by the way, this guy's was prolific in terms of his predating on young girls, but this is just the tip of the iceberg. What's underneath the water trying to get their home addresses. That tells me he wanted to stalk them meeting up with them. That means he wanted to have sex with them. We don't know everything that he communicated with them,

but I would imagine he was also trying to dominate these girls, push them into some subservient role in his life. As we see so often with these predators, I mean, what do they do? They entice the girls online. Then they start to get them to say terrible things about their parents. They alienate them from the families. When the girl starts to feel sort of both titillated by the admiration and then guilty for withdrawing from their parents, then the predator moves in and really, he really takes charge at that point. Look, he got these two little girls to go on a long walk and to meet him somewhere. That's how much control

he had over their minds at this point. Now, according to him, he had nothing to do with it. But let's look at the facts. Isn't it true to you, Max Lewis, reporter Fox 59 in Indianapolis, that his account, Anthony Shots, which is, again, a fake photo. He looks nothing like this guy. He kind of looks like a Justin Bieber kind of lookalike. He had photos on his account where he's driving expensive sports cars, pretending like he's very rich, very ripped, covered in tattoos. The account was created just six months before Liberty and Abby were killed. And we have reason to believe he was communicating with at least one of the girls on the day that they go missing. They're found dead the next day. And also I find

it really, really disturbing that before he would give one of his devices to police, they took a couple of phones and iPad. Why does he need all these phones? He had one of them factory wiped. Factory wiped before handing it over. That doesn't look good, Max. No, and, you know, it begs a lot of questions. You know, what was he doing? You know, nobody has all those kind of phones. I mean, when they raided his home in the weeks after the girls were murdered, you know, they carried out these bags of evidence, including all these phones, these iPads.

You know, who needs that kind of stuff? What is that kind of stuff for? And then, you know, also, yeah, not turning in a phone that, you know, I don't know if police missed one or what happened with that. But he ended up turning a phone in, you know, about a week after this raid, and it had been factory reset. Well, you know, begs the question, what was on that phone? You know, and why feel the need to factory reset that? Is there some important evidence that was on that? And, you know, we'll see if Indiana State Police can get anything off of it. I don't know if they have. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To you, Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics,

I assume that you don't limit your forensic knowledge to blood and sperm. What about digital forensics? Once you do a factory wipe, what can cops get from that? Not much, Nancy. And specifically, you use the term wipe. There is a reason you say that because it's cleared out at that point in time. So unless there is some type of backup that the factory did on that, I don't think that there would be anything salvageable relative to the history on that phone and what they can and what they can collect. I was trying to wade through a lot of the information that we're getting to Max Lewis joining us.

Fox 59 on some of those devices. There were several phones and at least one iPad there on the iPhone five. They got from this guy, he had uninstalled and deleted Snapchat, Insta, and Meet Me. The browser history was deleted the morning of Feb 27, just before he handed the phone over to police. Much of the data from Facebook, Insta, and Twitter had also been deleted. I mean, Max, please, cop, you want to go look at my phone? Have at it. You can wade through all those recipes and the photos of the twins. I would be mad if you didn't. I'm not going to delete a single picture. Go crazy. But why did he have to delete stuff from Facebook, Insta, and Twitter?

And how much do we know, Max Lewis, Fox 59, that he admits, he admits to setting up the account. He admits to speaking with or making contact with these young girls. Where does he draw the line? Murder? Yeah, and that's the question, right? I mean, he used, he told police when they interviewed him that he used this Anthony Schatz account, all those pictures of that good looking guy that you were talking about. I didn't say he was good looking.

Whoa, hold on, Nellie. I said he was a Justin Bieber lookalike. Also the Justin Bieber lookalike. Yeah. Okay. Well, we'll go with that. So he told them that he used this to get these nude photos of young girls. And, you know, if he's willing to do all that, he knows.

I mean, he knows that that's wrong. If he's willing to do that, what's to say that he's not willing to meet up with them? I find it sort of hard to believe. I'm just telling you, Max, you're preaching to the choir. You are preaching to the choir right now. Go tell it to the unbelievers. You just can't tell me, Cheryl McCollum. Don't make me tell my story.

I would tell jurors about Mr. Scorpion and Mr. Frog, okay? But I will if I have to break it out, I will. You can't tell me that this guy was online with a fake account looking like Justin Bieber, pretending to be rich, trying to get little girls addresses, meet up with them, get them to strip down and send him nude photos. Ann was talking to Libby, I think, that day or within the previous 48 hours. And then suddenly they go to this bridge. I just jump in, Cheryl, help me out here. Nancy, there's a little other aspect for me,

and that is that when the girls went missing and subsequently were found murdered, he never came forward either. He never said, hey, look, I was talking to her about two o'clock so I can give you a time reference of when something might've happened after that. So he wasn't helpful or anything.

But do you really blame him for that, though? Well, yeah, I blame him, but I'm not surprised to be a better way, because if he came forward with that, then he'd have to admit he'd been catfishing little girls for nude photos. But it's still a factor is all I'm saying, because what you also have is the police were searching his house within 11 days. Well, that means they had probable cause to go there. So very quickly, they had their eyes on this guy for a considerable reason. And I believe it was what was in that phone. And I want to remind everybody, we keep hearing Miami County, Miami County.

It's not in Florida. It's in Ohio. Guys, I want you to hear more of this bombshell interview. It's from WTHR, who got it from CNN. Listen. The Anthony Shantz account included photos of a male model. The Anthony Shantz account included photos of a male model. And that man had no idea that his images were being used to catfish girls that were underage. Klein admitted that he created that fake online profile and that

he used it to solicit inappropriate pictures. He's now in the Miami County Jail being held on about 30 counts of child pornography unrelated to the Delphi case. Klein told CNN he had nothing to do with the murders of Abby and Libby. He also told CNN the Delphi investigators told him that Anthony Schatz was the last to communicate with Libby before her death. And so, are you aware whether you may have talked to Libby on the 13th? That's what they said. That's what the police told me. That you did? Yeah. And do you have any recollection of that?

No, not at all. I've told them a hundred times I've done everything they wanted me to, and it's like they're just harassing me. Klein also told CNN he's given his DNA and a hair follicle sample to investigators. Police have not named Klein as a suspect in the Delphi murders. Not named as a suspect. Let me repeat that in the murders. Now, did you hear that, Wendy Patrick?

The police are harassing me. Wake up, man. You've got at least 30 counts of child porn. Nobody's harassing you. We are protecting little girls from you. And he just blurted out for the world to hear that the cops tell me I communicated with Libby the afternoon before she was dead. That night, she went for the walk on Feb 13. She died on Feb 13 along with Abby. Their bodies are found Feb 14.

And he says, the cops tell him they have proof. He was talking to one of the girls that afternoon. And we know his MO is to try to meet up with these girls. Let me give you this quote. I hope you're sitting down. You may need to lay down for this quote. I don't really know. I was just lonely.

You know what I mean? Just talking to people. I don't know why I did it really. Just want to talk to people. Well, go to the gas station for Pete's sake. Go get a hamburger at McDonald's and say hi to somebody walking in. Don't ask little girls for nude photos. But yet he says he is being harassed. It really goes to show you his mindset, doesn't it? So this is somebody that has done this for so long. I mean, hundreds of admissions of photos and solicitations, because remember the online solicitation is for offline contact.

Now, of course his defense would be yes, but not murder. But you'll notice that his demeanor, the tenor of his voice on that call, in that interview, seemed to suggest the perceived normalcy of this kind of behavior, which is very problematic. You'll also know he doesn't deny. You'll know that he doesn't deny being the last person to talk to at least one of the girls. Yeah. Hey, wait a minute. Wait a minute. You're right. That's a really good point, Wendy Patrick. Did he deny it or did he say, I don't remember it, Cheryl McCollum? He said he didn't remember talking to her.

Translation, yes, I talked to her. That's what that means. Correct. Whenever you're under oath, people say, I don't recollect. In other words, I'm not telling. Sometimes they really don't remember, but I think I would remember that or else why would he wipe all of his phones? He also said, they say that I was the last one to talk to them. They like it's the police's fault as if he doesn't remember clearly, given the two little girls are murdered and he's in jail.

He really the idea that they're harassing him. They say I was the last one to have contact. Not only does he externalize blame, but there's an arrogance to his tone of voice. I don't know if you've noticed that. He's being wronged by the police and society rather than referring to the two little angels who are in the ground saying two girls went missing. They're dead. I'm so sorry.

How are their families? There's no remorse, no empathy towards the family members. It's really the whole interview is very self-referential. It's all about him being wrong. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Max Lewis joining me, Fox 59, joining us from Indianapolis. Max, I know you cover a varied, a wild spectrum of breaking news. I've been putting bad guys behind bars, God help me, for a really long time.

And it's very common for them to say this. Listen, Max Lewis. Klein says he's not sure if the search warrant police served him with in 2017, just about a week or so after the girls were killed, was connected to the Delphi murders or child exploitation and child porn. Quote, I have no clue. I asked him, hey, what is this about? How can he pretend he has no idea what the search warrant or the arrest was about? Yeah, I sort of call bull on all this guy's stuff, you know, saying, oh, well, that's what the police tell me.

They tell me I was in contact. No, it was his account. He knows if he was in contact with somebody. I mean, I guess if he was in contact with Libby or Abby. And, you know, I guess it could be maybe somebody else was using this account to contact them or whatever. But I just think he's playing dumb all around. You know, I mean, I think he knows what's going on here.

And maybe he realized it was a gravity situation now and is just sort of trying to play dumb and say well i don't know is that this warrant i don't know if i was in contact with him all this stuff but i find that really hard to believe well and it's really nancy can i jump in please wait i can't believe you even asked go ahead he he was quoted when the police went to serve the search warrant on his home. He was quoted as saying, I'm effed as soon as they came in. I should have left. He knew what was up. Okay, get ready to beat me, Fox Nation. I should have left.

That's what he said. Isn't that what he said, Max? Yes, that's exactly what he said. You know, Cheryl McCollum, you need to give a few opening and closing arguments because you quickly get over your, let's see, delicate personality that you've got where you can't say a curse word. Just so you know, I never, ever, ever curse in front of the twins, ever. But you have to say it like it is.

You have to tell the jury and whoever is listening or watching right now. Exactly. Exactly. What you know to be the truth. I agree with you a hundred percent. I just didn't want to get you fine. When the cops come to his door, he says, I'm, I should have left. Now, Max Lewis, uh, joining me, Fox 59.

Let me understand. Their bodies are found. They go missing Feb 13. Their bodies are found Feb 14. Talking about a little 13 and 14-year-old girl the age of my children, John, David, and Lucy. Their bodies are found. When did he start deleting things off of his phones phones yeah multiple phones max lewis and ipad well we i believe we don't know exactly when that happened

but it we believe it happened um after the search warrant was served and then right after that and the search warrant was served get you know get this with like a little more than a week after the girls were murdered. And then in between that and these hidden phones that he had, then he started deleting the information off of that. So, you know, clearly he knew something was up. He was possibly in trouble. He said, as you said, Nancy, I won't say it again, but, you know, he knew that he was asked. And so that's when he started to do what he needed to do. Whether or not it's in relation to the case, I don't know, but we'll see.

Well, you know what? Where are you right now, Max Lewis? I am in our station building here. Okay. At Box 59. Was it snowing outside when you went in? It was not. Okay. So if you go outside and you see snow on the ground and you see a snow plow going by, could you reasonably deduct that it snowed while you were inside talking to me?

I could. Okay, so what I'm saying is that Joe Scott Morgan, I don't have to have a video of what he did to know what he did. So I agree. Abby and Libby were killed on the 13th and he suddenly starts cleaning off all of his devices. Yeah. And just as a refresher. So folks that are listening to this, remember this. This guy's in Peru, Indiana, Nancy.

And that's that's where he was domiciled, where he lived. Nancy, let me give you a number. 37. 37 miles from Delphi, Nancy. 37 miles. Just keep that in mind here. The proximity here, when we work crimes like this, we begin to think about individuals that had the potential to commit these kinds of crimes in relative proximity. Because when you put together a profile of somebody, you think about who has opportunity, access, you know, all of those things that we kind of roam through in our minds as investigators. And for me, that number is going to stick with me when it comes to this guy. And one more thing about these people that engage in this kind of behavior, they never do it in a vacuum, Nancy. They network with one another.

One of the things that they really enjoy is sharing this data. And they'll either get on the dark web nowadays or sometimes, sometimes these individuals will gather, physically gather to swap images. And I really wonder, I really wonder if there are not others that might have privy to this information and to images like this. You know what I wonder? If he could be pinged, this is food for thought for everybody on the panel, if his devices could be pinged to the location of the bridge, the Momon High Bridge. I wonder if they've done that or if they lost all that data when the phones were, when the devices were wiped.

Just let me tell you, I keep saying phones and I stumble because we typically say phone. He had six devices, smartphones, a tablet, an iPod touch, multiple phones. What were you going to say, Cheryl? Oh, that was, it was Wendy. I was going to add to the, I was going to add to proximity. He also had predisposition. The predisposition was the meeting the girls online and being willing to travel that short 37 miles to meet up. But what the argument is going to be is kind of what you heard him say in the interview, that that was where the interest stopped. In other words, predisposition for meeting young girls for sex doesn't then lead to murder.

That is why the demeanor in that interview I thought was so important, to look at, well, is this somebody that can get that angry, that would be capable of that kind of just despicable conduct? So disposition was everything. You began by saying what kind of lawyer would let a client give an interview like that. You can see how much we're already deducing just by the words he said in his tone of voice. I want to point out something else. Hey, don't let me lose this thought, Dr. Bethany. Okay. Listen to this. Okay.

Let me verbalize this correctly. On many of the graphic sex images he got from little girls, nude photos of children, child porn, the locations were not in his hometown that Joe Scott was pointing to. He's 37 miles away. He got images for little children from Hammond, Royal Center, also in Indiana, Bunker Hill, Galveston, Indianapolis, Kokomo, Monterey, and Royal Center. So his MO was to get photos from little girls in different areas. Now, would he travel to meet them? Why not? As Joe Scott pointed out, it's 37 miles away. What were you saying, Bethany? Well, Wendy was wondering, given his interview,

if we could tell if he was the kind of person who would get angry and anger leading to homicide. But remember, there are many other reasons that sex predators kill. Maybe he wouldn't want to have been ID'd by them. Remember, Libby took a Snapchat photo of somebody who looked remarkably like Klein, or he could have been like a sadomasochistic kind of person or a sadist, excuse me, where he wanted to inflict pain and injury in order to increase his sexual excitement,

and then maybe that went too far, or he maimed them, or he had to dispose of them afterwards. But if the police were able to get a hold of the content of his Facebook, his Instagram, Twitter, all of that, I think that they will probably have a behavioral expert looking at what was the content of the sexual chat with these underage girls. Did it veer towards sadism? Did he ever talk about wanting to tie them up, harm them, to hurt them? Because that could be another reason why he then killed them and disposed of them. Listen to this.

Speaking of the images, they were mostly children between age 12 and 17, adults involved in sex acts with children between the ages of 3 and 11, images of drugs, and a photo of Klein with a black handgun. So if you are not interested in sex with a child, why would you be soliciting photos and videos of sex with a child? You know that old saying to you, Cheryl, you know, what you think about is what you are, is what you do. I always tell the children, don't invite the devil for tea. He may just stay for supper and end up camping out overnight. In your head, don't.

So if he's not interested in it, why is he soliciting it? And here's the thing that's going to go against the argument when people say, well, he was just trying to get photographs. No, he was asking for photographs and asking people to meet with him. And it just might be that finally somebody met him. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A factory reset that Joe Scott and I were talking about earlier essentially wipes all user data. Now, investigators were able to get info on the device, including discussions about meeting people in Vegas and prostitution.

So he apparently was willing to travel to satisfy his twisted desires. Let's take a listen to more of what we are now getting from WTHR. This guy actually spoke to producers from behind bars. Don't you know his defense lawyer is doing a backflip. Hit it, Jack. Are you aware whether you may have talked to Libby on the

13th? That's what they said. That's what the police told me. That you did? Yeah. And do you have any recollection of that? No, not at all. I've told them a hundred times I've done everything they wanted me to, and it's like they're just harassing me.

Oh, back on the harassing again. You know, to you, Cheryl McCollum, I have never seen a case that's being handled this way. It's almost as if they are titillating the public with just a little bit of information. Not releasing more details has not helped them at all. What's the problem, Cheryl? I've never seen anything like this either. Nancy, as you know, I mean, within that first week, we had the video in his voice within the first week.

And then it wasn't until five months later we get the first composite. And then two years later, we get a second composite that doesn't look anything like the first one. And then in December of 2021, now we have this Anthony underscore shots account. I mean, it's just been this piecemeal, but you know, you're getting at the five year mark. I mean, it might be time to release a little more. Well, what do you think about that? Just Scott Morgan?

Yeah, I think that that's, I mean, what at this point, I know that it's, you can say, what do you have to lose? You can lose the whole case. But really, at this point in time, we've been teased. I like the fact that you use that term with, and I'll go back to this. Do you remember early on? They said, they being the authorities, that they have DNA sample.

Okay, so what exactly do you mean by that? I think that needs to be explored. What's the sourcing of the DNA? And when I say that, I'm talking about, we mentioned hair earlier. Is it semen? Is it blood? Is it merely touch DNA?

And, you know, if you have DNA, why is it that it's coming up, you know, with a big fat zero at this point in time? Why is it that you have this evidence-rich environment, which I can only assume it was? What's the inhibitor here that's preventing you going forward with the physical evidence, I think? And why hasn't that happened? Has it been placed into CODIS? I can only assume that it would have been to get a reference, you know, the National DNA Database. And so I'm wondering if what the nature of the DNA is, if it is as substantial as we hope

that it is, or is it contaminated or compromised in some way? I don't know. These are big questions that have to be answered, Nancy. Nancy, I'm a layperson, and when I read this, meaning that I've never been on a crime scene, I'm not an investigator, I'm not a detective, and when I read that they had held on to this much information for five years, a thought bubble formed above my head that was like, do you really have anything substantial at all? I mean, are you bluffing? Are you hiding? Where is the reality of this investigation? I mean, Joe Scott Morgan just

put it so much more beautifully and eloquently, but just from the public's perspective, it's either a tease or it's just like an empty gesture and there's nothing behind it at all. Guys, speaking of teasing the public, that seems exactly what the Indiana State Police are doing. Take a listen to our cut D3. It's important that we don't show our hand, quite frankly, and very directly. We're not going to explain what we know about the killer. We're not going to do that. We're not going to explain some of the intricate details of the death of Abby and Libby. Unfortunately, one day we're going to have to, but then that's going to create a whole other issue with family and friends and the community and the like. So from an investigative standpoint, I'm not going to talk any more about it.

To Dr. Bethany Marshall, you were saying what? Well, I was saying that when they say they're not going to reveal to the public, it'll have to come out in court at some point. It could be a tease, but Nancy, maybe they have nothing at all. A further thought, meaning there is no evidence. Maybe they flubbed it up, as Joe Scott Morgan put in much better language than I could have constructed. But here's another thought, Nancy. This guy was such a prolific offender. Where are all the other victims? Has anybody else come forward? I mean, the families in those communities must be terrified. Don't you think they've, perhaps they've checked their daughter's social media accounts? Yeah, Nancy, I got to jump in here. Go ahead. I do not think they're bluffing. I'll tell you what I think has happened. I think at first when this went down,

they didn't know what to do with what they found because it was so out of the realm of anything they had ever seen. We had 20-year veterans telling us, this is the worst thing we've ever dealt with. This is the worst crime we've ever dealt with. And I believe them. So let me go back. If you look at the bridge, every single teenage girl,

every single one can tell you there was a guy somewhere at a ball field, grocery store, movie theater that made them feel weird, that they thought was kind of a pervert, right? But they didn't videotape him. Libby videotaped this guy because he did something overtly. He did something first in order for her to take that phone out and videotape him from a distance. If you look at the video, his midsection, his belly button, for example, is headed east where he's on the west side of the bridge. It appears to me he was in the middle of

a turn. I believe he walked past them, said or did something, freaked her out. When he turned around is when she started videotaping. I don't know what is at that scene. I don't know if there's weird knots or drawings or cuts or burns or something with clothing, but I do know that holding it close to the vest is the smartest thing they can do because when they get that SOB in that room, he's going to slip up and say something that's never been released. Joe Scott? Yeah, I mean, you have to play it close to the vest. I think at this point, though, the counterpoint to that is that when you get at a mic stand and you make a comment about we're not going to release this information, you have to have the expectation and the sophistication to understand these questions will continue to be asked over and over and over again. We're celebrating. Oh, God, let me rephrase that. We're marking. to understand these questions will continue to be asked over and over and over again.

We're celebrating. Oh, God, let me rephrase that. We're marking. We're marking the fifth anniversary. We can celebrate their lives. But this is horrible what has occurred. And this is we're five years down the road right now. And when it is stated that you have specific information, you have specific investigative data that you've come up with, the public will want to know, you know, well, why hasn't this led somewhere? And I think that's a valid question, Nancy.

Well, I don't believe that they need to release anything regarding the mode of the death or any details of the girl's death. But anything that could lead to the identity of the perpetrator is an entirely different matter. Take a listen to our cut one anchor Judy Sue, ABC 7. Nearly five years since 13-year-old Abby Williams and 14-year-old Libby German were murdered on this Indiana hiking trail. Their killer still at large and today, Indiana State Police issuing a new warning to the culprit. My resolve to catch him is as strong as it was day one. But the difference now between now and day one is we know about you a lot about you today could be the day. Sleep well. The girls were last seen near this bridge in February of 2017.

Authorities say Libby recorded this image of the alleged killer on her iPhone, along with haunting audio of his voice moments before their murder, apparently telling them to go down the hill. If you knew Libby, she had her phone attached to her hip all the time Libby's grandparents believed the teenager knew something wasn't right with a man they encountered prompting her to record him something decides me this says she's gonna film that and come home and say look I look at this guy know, he was out there really weird. How does it help to issue a statement that says, we know a lot about you. If you knew that much,

then why not arrest him? And today could be the day. Sleep well. But there's been no arrest. So what's the thinking behind that kind of statement? What about it, Wendy Patrick? It sounds like they know a lot about the profile of who committed the murders. What it seems like is lacking is the tie between the profile they have and the actual suspect they're going to arrest. You know, I have even tried rape cases where you would expect there would be DNA everywhere, but there wasn't. Or forensic evidence you would expect would just be prolific at a crime scene, but it wasn't able to be tied to a particular suspect. In the same way, they've released sketches that have been very different from each other. They're not photographs, and there are many people that falsely look like sketches that have been released.

So they seem to be struggling with that link. They've got the profile. They have the evidence. But they just don't have that bridge to be able to charge, for example, the person we've been talking about who's in custody for the child porn. Yeah, it's interesting that you're using that phraseology, Wendy Patrick. And I agree. They may be one step away missing one piece of evidence. And Sheryl McCollum had a great idea. If they haven't already done it, Indiana police, I'm sure, will make plans to

take that jailhouse interview and compare it to the known voice of the killer where he says, down the hill, down the hill, and hopefully get a match. Take a listen to Hour Cut 11, where they virtually say that. This is from WNDU. By February of 2021, police maintained they were just one puzzle piece away from an arrest. It is not a cold case. I have been adamant about that all along. It is not a cold case. We still receive tips by way of email or phone calls every day. And so new information still pours into our investigators. Those investigators moved to a new space in September of 2021, where they could continue to work on tips as the reward grows to

$325,000. And just when the public thought they weren't going to learn anything new about the killer, detectives are seeking information about the person who created the Anthony Schatz profile. Investigators would like any individual who communicated, met, or attempted to meet the Anthony Schatz profile to contact law enforcement. That request for help from Indiana State Police in December of 2021, seeking information about a fake online account that went by the name of Anthony underscore Schatz. The tip line 765-822-3535.

Repeat, 765-822-3535. The reward is growing now at $325,000. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.