Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Chuckie Mauk: Boy killed on way home from candy store

Episode Date: August 14, 2017

Three decades have passed since 13-year-old Chuckie Mauk was shot dead during a bike ride to a Georgia candy store. But the search for the killer has not ended. Nancy Grace visits with Chuckie's mom to discuss the case and the painful loss of her son in this episode. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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families cook nearly three times more often. Upcoming meals, basil pesto chicken with summer vegetables, sauteed shrimp and green beans with tomato, spinach, and orzo pasta. Check out this week's menu and get your first three meals free with free shipping by going to blueapron.com slash nancygrace. You will love how good it feels and tastes to create incredible home-cooked meals with Blue Apron, so don't wait. That's blueapron.com slash nancygrace. Blue Apron, a better way to cook. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. 30 years ago, a killer rocked the Warner Robins community after a 13-year-old boy was murdered. Chucky Mock's life ends at just 13, but his case unsolved.

He'd ride his bike to a nearby convenience store all the time to buy candy. Someone heard a loud pop. Witnesses say they saw him talking to someone in a light-colored car. They see a vehicle speeding away. But who would shoot a 13-year-old boy? Who killed Chucky Mock? There is still no suspect. There are people in this community that were in this community at that time that know what happened to Chuckie Malt.

There was a knock at the door, and then nothing was ever the same. There was a knock at the door, and then nothing was ever the same. There was a knock at the door, and then nothing was ever the same. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories, and I want to thank you for being with us. Today I am trying again with everything I know to use and do to solve a cold case. A cold case that means a great deal to me personally.

Chucky Mock, a little boy, a beautiful little boy. I always think of Chucky and his little league, his little league outfit. And when I say that, I think of him with the hat on and the golden brown hair coming out from under it and the little jersey. He's so proud, so proud in that picture. and the golden brown hair coming out from under it, and the little jersey. So proud. So proud in that picture. I mean, he's just a handsome little boy, too. And it always gets blurred. Every time I think about Chucky, I blur in my son, John David.

And I think about him in his soccer uniform when he stands there for the picture. And when he gets a trophy or those horrible little medals they hand out instead of trophies now. And I have to think about how the last nine years have been the happiest years of my life because of him and Lucy. And then Chucky comes back into my mind's eye. You hear somebody in the background? That's Chucky's mom. It's Kathy Miller. Kathy, I almost stopped the call calling you to join me today because, you know, sometimes for me anyway, it's easier for me to get through the day without thinking about violent crime, without thinking about the moment Keith was murdered, not wondering what was the last thing he saw? Did he think about me? Why wasn't I there? Did he suffer?

Was he knocked out immediately? What happened? What did he go through? Why did this happen? It's just easier to wake up in the morning, have a cup of tea, and get busy. Because, you know, go ahead. I understand that, Nancy. I understand that feeling why is that I don't know but you know you I wish I could go a day you know pretending that it it didn't happen but

I live with this empty hole in my heart every day and to not talk about it is just not to be who I am because I live with that every day I live with it every day that he's gone that I don't I think the same thing as you you know why wasn't I there was he scared did he need me and I'm his mother and I couldn't protect him you know you watch your children all their lives, you know, to try to keep them safe. And just a moment in time, he left me and I wasn't there. I guess I don't pretend it didn't happen. I just don't want to think about it because it's so painful. It's just, it's so painful. You just don't want that pain to kind of enter your day or to start your day. But it's there, you know, no matter what we do to think that it wasn't, it's there.

It's always underlying. You know, it's that current, that low current in our lives. You know, another thing that I really, I don't hate it that much, but I do hate, is that people act like if you're connected to a murder if somebody in your family or your friend was murdered then you're somehow i don't know let's see how can i put this look at you different like you're kind of a trashy person you're like yes i don't know. People don't get, it happens to everybody. They do. You know, no one's ever understood

that, about that. That people look at you different. They will treat you different as soon as you say your child was murdered. It's like, oh yeah. I guess I could know what he was doing. And he becomes a victim again. And he didn't do anything wrong.

Yeah, just to put it out there, at the very beginning, Chucky Mott was a little boy. He asked his mom if he could, you know what, why am I telling it? I've got his mother with me. Kathy, Kathy Miller is joining me, who I now consider to be a friend. And we're going to get into how I met Kathy, which is the craziest thing. How we ever got connected is fortuitous. It was meant to be.

It was meant to be. But I want to go back to that day, the day 8 p.m. Just start with that day, Kathy. Okay. It was Memorial Day. And Chucky would always go to this little market, this little grocery store, just around the corner from our house and buy candy for school the next day. And he asked me if he could go.

He was just going to be gone a second. And he went to the store to buy candy. Around the corner. It's literally around the corner. Around the corner. I mean, yes. It's just like not even, it's a block maybe. As the crow flies, it's probably not even a block because this is how it is.

Okay, there's the street. There's more of a main thoroughfare where the closer to where the store is then you pull off and you go into a residential suburb and it's tree-lined and it's nice and there's no crime there it's just a regular american suburban neighborhood you would It's pretty. Right next to a little bowling alley. Yeah, yeah, around the corner. It's just like a little dream of what America's suburban life would be. And what he would do is get on his bike and cut through the neighborhood

and go up to the main street, which was not like some busy eight line. It just happened to be where a little convenience store thing was. And I mean, people don't get it in that part of the country. I remember when we were little, my mother would have had a heart attack because for us to go get gum or candy, we would have to get on our bikes and ride our bikes for like, I don't know, 20, 25 minutes through woods and dirt roads. And then we'd come up behind what was called the pep station. Right, right. And all we could get in there was like gum or a couple of, and then we'd get on our bikes

and drive all the way back home, you know. Really, you know, it's just a small little country, you know, little southern town. And that's just what the kids do. So that night, where were you? Describe the scene for me. I was at home. Yeah. Okay.

We had just finished supper. Yeah. And the knock came on the, you know, to my door. But when you left, when you left, you were washing the dishes and you had your back turned. And you went, okay, go, but come straight back. What happened? I just, you know, I didn't even look at him because it wasn't unusual for Chuck. He was always in and out the house, you know, with all the kids.

And he just said, Mom, I'm going to run to the store and get some candy for school. And I said, you know, come back, you know, don't be gone long. And he said, I won't. And, you know, out the door in two seconds. And I didn't look at him before he left. He just was out the door. You know, it's funny that you remember that funny odd, because I remember the last time I saw Keith. And he, his family lived in Athens, and he was working over the summer.

And he would come down to visit me and my family in Macon. And he had come for the weekend and stayed the weekend. And Sunday night, oh, I didn't want him to go back. And so he said, okay, I'll stay. So he stayed Sunday night and got up super early Monday morning to drive, I guess like two hours back. And I remember standing outside. It was chilly because it was so early in the morning. And he went down the driveway, turned right, and drove off to the horn and stuck his hand, his arm above the window to wave over the... Yeah.

And I remember that moment, like right now, like it just happened yesterday. It's funny how that works, that you remember that moment. It is. It's just as clear. It's just so clear. You know, how many times do you replay that in your mind, you know? And I remember thinking as he went out of sight, there's a superstition that says, don't watch the person until they're out of sight because it's bad luck.

And I remember just before his car went out of sight, I kept waving, but I closed my eyes because I didn't want to wish any bad luck. Okay. I remember that like yesterday. So you go, sure, go. Okay, then what happens? So you're washing dishes. I'm washing dishes, and then there's a knock at the door, and I go to answer it,

and it's one of his little friends that lives down the street. And she said, I see Chucky, and it looks like he's fallen off his bike and hurt himself. You know, and I'm thinking, oh, no, you know, he's broke his arm. He's broke his leg. So me and my husband, and we grab our other child, Greg, who's like in the second grade at that time, and we just run down to see Chucky. And as we're running, I see that it is so much more than that.

And then it's just, it's like slow motion. It's, I don't, like my feet are made of lead and I just can't get there. You know, I'm just, it's just, I can't hardly explain how I was feeling. I just knew. I knew. And then that's when we find him. And he's laying there. And they think at first that he is a hit and run.

And they roll him over and the bullet went through the back of his neck and came out his face. And he's dead. And that was the moment that I kind of went away and everything changed my whole life. And that's the last time I saw him. To hear you say that moment when you thought he had fallen off his bike? You know, I thought I would find him sitting there, you know, just with his arm or his leg broke, you know, and I'm thinking, oh my God, that's the worst thing. And it's so not even that. When you saw him, what did you see exactly?

You know, my mind sort of won't let me think about what I saw. I know that sounds crazy, but I get there and it kind of flashes away. I just saw so much blood because his blonde hair was all red from from the blood and everyone my husband grabbed me and kind of took me to this fence so I wouldn't see anything and the police were there by that time and they didn't want me near anything to this disturb the scene and by that then there's just this huge crowd and I'm just likeical. I'm just hysterical, and they're trying to get people to calm me down. And it's just something like you see in the movies.

It's just like you see in the movies. I'm just hysterical, and I can't get to him, and I can't help him. You know, I just, when you said that moment, you rarely think of it. Mm-hmm. I remember that when I went to Keith's funeral, I just couldn't stand the thought of seeing him in a casket and I walked in

and the overwhelming smell of carnations which to this day makes me sick I can't stand it I almost feel like I'm going to vomit just talking about it it's almost like when you smell a lot of gas fumes at the gas station I can't stand it. I almost feel like I'm going to vomit just talking about it. It's almost like when you smell a lot of gas fumes at the gas station.

The thought of smelling those carnations is just, oh. Oh, the florist. We're going to the florist. Oh, I never go in a florist. I can't stand that smell. I can't either. Me neither. I went in, and I remember I just instinctively glanced into some kind of ante room. I glanced off to the right, and I saw his casket.

I saw just above the edge, the top of his profile, and I passed out. I passed out. Oh, I just know how you felt. I can't really even remember past that. It said all of a sudden we were out at the funeral. And I can remember the pastor, God help him, poor thing, kept calling me Mary. Oh, no. And I don't really care. It's okay.

I get it. But I just remember that, and it was so unreal. And I've told you this before off mic, that for about a year or two before Keith's murder, and I don't know how long after his murder. I have huge chunks of time. I can't remember. People will come up and go, hey, do you remember something? And I'm like, no, I don't remember.

Tell me what happened. I've done the same thing. That's happened to me, too. And when, at Chucky's funeral, my husband and they decided, you know, to have a closed casket. Because they didn't want me to, they just, you know, they just couldn't make Chucky look like Chucky used to. And so it was closed and we just had his picture on the coffin and that was it. I never saw him again. Trying to

not that it matters, but trying to figure out what is the worst thing. Is the worst thing when you find out the person is gone or that horrible time after where you're practically disabled and there's nothing you can do like those days and those nights and those hours that turn into weeks that turn into months and you're just completely disabled with pain and there's nothing nobody can help you you can't get away from it you wake up in the morning and for

just about maybe two seconds you it seems normal and then you remember and there's no way around it. No pill. There is no short, no pill. There's no shortcut, no pill, no medicine, no shrink, no nothing. No words, no person, no nothing. You are engulfed and wrapped around and cocooned in a pain that is indescribable. And there's, you wake up, every breath is so hard. I just wanted to die. I just wanted to die.

I'm just imagining you in that heat, and you've dragged your little child along behind you, running, and then everybody is around Chucky, and you're kind of off to the side by that fence. What in the world was happening in your mind? But then there's the funeral. When did you realize Chucky was not hit by a car? Chucky didn't fall off his bike.

He didn't hit his head. Somebody shot him. Somebody shot him and killed your child. And in broad daylight. At close range. I mean, you know, people were saying, well, maybe a stray bullet. Well, no, it wasn't a stray bullet. Somebody put a gun to the back of his head and shot him. And that is the fact. That is the only thing that truly I know. And I just, you know, as soon as we went back to the house after we left the scene,

you know, and all the police and the sheriff and, you know, everyone's just bombarding you with, you know, questions, you know. And I'm just trying to say he was shot. You know, I'm just, I can't even go there. It's just, I can't go there. It was just, it's so overwhelming. I can't even hardly put into words how overwhelmed all of this is at that moment in time. And then I just, like, my hands start shaking, and then my legs start shaking, and my whole body's shaking,

and then I start going into shock. And so they have to take me to the emergency room, and, you know, it's just this nightmare of things that are happening, and so much is happening in that short period of time, like from 8 to midnight. With me, it's just trying to know that he's not coming back and somebody killed him. Somebody wanted him dead. And I can't fathom it who would want him dead.

I can just try to get this picture in my head. At a distance, Kathy sees her son sprawled out on the pavement of a convenience store parking lot, bleeding near his bike. They shot him while he's still on his bike or standing beside his bike. And in his little hand. He tried to get back on it. And in his little hand was still a pack of bubble gum. A pack of bubble gum.

So he had made it into the store, just like he told Mommy. He got his little bubble gum, and somebody gunned this little boy down. Now, what do we know? What have you been told, Kathy? What have you learned about a potential suspect? What I know is he was seen talking to someone in a light-colored car and that's all I know.

Had to be a man. Okay, so it's a man. You had to be a man, and their ages, I don't know. I thought it was narrowed down to a white male. Well, yeah, a white male. Most likely, too, the driver and a passenger is, from what I know, kind of an acne-scarred face, rough-looking, you know. Dark hair, light hair. Wasn't it dark hair? Light. Light hair. Okay. dark hair light hair wasn't it dark light light hair okay i think light hair was the passenger i'm not sure about the driver so i'm not sure the guy with light hair a white male with light

colored hair is he the one that had the acne scars yes yes well somebody had to get fairly close to him to know he had acne scars. Yeah. I mean, at least 30, 40 feet at the most. And I'm not sure how they got that. I'm not sure. And any remote idea on the make and model? No. Just light color is all I know of. What do you think kathy about a potential motive i've always thought somebody tried to lure him in the car and he wouldn't get in and they shot him

because he never got in anybody's car no no and he wasn't you, he didn't hang out with any bad kids. You know, he was like into the sports, and, you know, he was very well liked. You know, he never had arguments with anyone that I know of. Kathy, you know what you're doing, don't you? You know what you're doing right now? You're defending him to me. You are defending him to me like you're telling me he didn't do anything wrong, this wasn't his fault. Hey, you don't have to do that to me. You are defending him to me like you're telling me he didn't do anything wrong. This wasn't his fault. Hey, you don't have to do that to me. But as long as we're on the subject, this boy, this little boy had never been in a day's trouble in his life. He made good grades.

He was the star of the little league game, the little League team. He practiced all the time. He never missed a game. That was his world. That was his world, as it should be. It was Mommy, his little brother, coming home, playing Little League. His bicycle. His bicycle. Oh, he loved the bicycle. That was his little world. And it's not like today. It's funny. What? It's funny that you say that about defending him. And I do that, Nancy, to almost everyone I speak to.

And after all these years, I still do that. I don't know why I do that. Because, you know what? You know what, people? I don't know why people wrote this. And it was out there. It's on the internet that Keith was at a liquor store and got gunned down. And then somebody else wrote that Keith was a cop.

And then somebody else wrote that I made the whole thing up. I don't even know. Let's see. I don't even know what all they've written. Just horrible, horrible things. I don't even know. Doesn't it just... Let's see. I don't even know what all they've written. Just horrible, horrible things. I don't even know why. So, you know what? Maybe you're not so far off the mark

by feeling like you have to be defensive because people will say or think... Now, wait a minute. Wasn't there some incident you told... Oh, by the way, I recall people... people witnesses were questioned and it is believed the was driving a white oldsmobile cutlass or buick right yes i forgot that you're right i cannot remember the name yeah now let me ask you this. Tell me about the incident

where a woman walked up to you. Weren't you trying on clothes? Weren't you in a store and made comments to you about Chucky's death? Oh, it was, I worked in a doctor's office. Yes, yes, yes. You know, okay, okay.

You know what? You know what I just got crossed in my head? Someone who came up to Sharon Rocha, who is Lacey Peterson's mom, at some, she was trying to get an outfit, and someone came up to her at a store and started asking her all these questions about Lacey's death. And, you know, people don't get it. I mean, when you can be having a perfectly fine day,

and suddenly somebody asks you about the murder, and it's like getting cold water thrown on your face, and it can just throw me into a depression. It takes me days to get out of it. I can't afford to do that anymore with having two children. They don't need a depressed mommy. They need a mommy who is upbeat and ready to roll with them, not somebody disabled.

So that's what got in my head. Now, you worked at a doctor's office. What happened? Right. And, you worked at a doctor's office. What happened? Right. And the doctor had sent me a patient. I would pre-op patients for surgery, kind of go over everything with them. And she saw Chuckie's picture on my desk. And she said, oh, are you Chuck's mother?

And I went, yes. And she kind of looked at his picture, and she knew the history that he was murdered, and she told me, she says, you know, sometimes when parents don't take care of their children, God calls them home. Well, she hit something so deep inside of me that I had felt like I wasn't a good mother. I let him go. I gave him permission to go, you know. And it just resonated in me. I just had to step out of the room. I went to my doctor, and I was hysterical.

I was just hysterical. I was hysterical. Hysterical. Okay, all right. You are just making me tell my story more than your story, but I have to tell you what happened. Okay, so this is years after Keith's murder. Yes, this is years two, mine too.

Okay, so I finished undergrad. I went to law school, got my law degree, started prosecuting. After 10 years, my elected DA retired, and I had originally turned down an offer to go to Court TV in New York. I called him back and went, hey, I don't have a job. Here I come. I'm on my way. Yeah. And I had come home for a weekend to Atlanta, and still at this time, even after all these years, I would hardly ever go out. I just, the sight and the sounds of everybody having a good time, I don't know, just rubbed me the wrong way after Keith's murder. It just didn't seem right to me. I know that's abnormal, but just the way it was, is. I understand that, yes. And so my now husband and my girlfriend, who is a defense lawyer in town, Renee,

the three of us went out after my show at night to go get dinner. It was late. It was like 9.30 or 10 o'clock at night because that's what time I would get off work. And we went through this hole in the wall that had Cajun food. And I'm sitting there, and eye of the blue, this has got to be 20, 15 years later. Some guy walked up to me and said, I was one of Keith's good friends, and I can't believe you're out with a guy having a good time. I mean, right now, Kathy, if you were in the studio with me, my mouth just fell open.

I'm like, I didn't even know what to say. Did you feel like you'd just been hit in the stomach? Yes, I feel it right now. I feel like somebody slapped me in the face. I feel feel like you'd just been hit in the stomach? Yes, I feel it right now. I feel like somebody slapped me in the face. Oh, me too. I feel that for you. And to save my neck, well, of course, it threw me into a depression. It resonated like, that's true. He's right. And, you know, I lived alone in New York and I would come home from work at night and just sit there in this quiet apartment.

And it was like a palpable, tangible presence in the room. The overwhelming grief. And I don't know the guy's name. If he bit me in the neck right now, I wouldn't know him. But I remember that moment. And it was awful. Awful. What is wrong with people?

I don't know i don't i don't know but it put it takes you back i mean what did you say to the woman that you've done i i couldn't say i just i didn't either i didn't say anything nobody believes it i just was so i know i me too they said why didn't you i said i i was punched in this i couldn't speak because she hit on something way deep down inside of me that i believe too you know and i was crushed i was crushed and it that little bit of recovery i had made put me way back you know, like I was starting all over again. And it was so hurtful. But people say hurtful things to you. Like you were a bad mother.

Because you let him go get some bubble gum. You know what? Yeah, and it's nighttime and you let him go. Okay, so the other day. But see what people don't get in the summertime in the south, 7, 30, 8 o'clock, it's just like noon outside. Yeah, and it wasn't something new that he did. You know, it wasn't. You know, the other day, Kathy, I was in, where was I?

I was in Costco, okay, because the children like a particular type of fish fillet. Okay. So I went in there trying not to get the free samples because they're really good. Anyway, so I go straight and I left them in the car with my mother. Okay. And she is about 86 and she was nodding off when I got out of the car and they were on their iPads looking up playing Candy Crush or something. And it hit me while I was in there in the frozen food section. What if somebody grabs that car and takes off? My mother couldn't fight them off. And here I am in here in the fish division. I almost ran out of Costco. I mean, there's no running out because you have to show your car and this and that and blah, blah.

And I thought I would jump out of my skin before I could get. When I got into that parking lot, they don't give you a bag. So you have to put everything in a box. I was trotting, if you can see, with this big box in my arms, running across the parking lot to get to the car. I mean, it never goes away. This was just last week. This was last week that I thought somebody would get the twins and hurt them. Yeah, because you know it can happen.

I mean, we have experienced it. We know it can happen. It's not a story someone tells us. And I believe that's why we have this tangible fear with us that it can happen again. You know, it can happen again. 478-542-2085. 478-542-2085. Or 478-542-2080. 2017 marks the 40th anniversary of the Summer of Sam. To mark the occasion, Pocketbooks is proud to release a

special anniversary edition e-book of Son of Sam by Lawrence D. Klausner. This is an incredible story of how a single man, David Berkowitz, dubbed Son of Sam, the demon-haunted.44 caliber killer, killed six, wounded several others, and terrorized millions of New Yorkers over eight known attacks from July 1976 through August 1977. It's also the story of the greatest manhunt in the history of the New York Police Department, the intimate narrative of the men assigned to tracking down a lone killer. The police task force investigated more than 3,000 suspects, some of them cops, before finally making an arrest.

In the meantime, politicians watched a city writhe in panic, newspapers played upon the fears of their readers, and the criminal justice system showed itself incapable of coping with the man who committed such horrendous crimes. Download Summer of Sam by Lawrence D. Klausner today. Royalties earned from the sale of this book will be shared between the victims or their families and the author. Chucky Mock was murdered. This beautiful little boy on his bicycle was murdered many, many years ago. What was the year, Kathy?

1986. Man. 31 years ago. He would be 45. He just had his birthday That almost When you said he just had his birthday That almost made my stomach

Did a flip because the twins Birthday is in November And we were just talking About what are we going to do For your birthday What are we going to do Because we talk about it all year About to do for your birthday? What are we going to do? Because we talk about it all year.

After, you know, about two weeks after their birthday. Okay, maybe two days after their birthday party, we start talking about what are we going to do next year? What are we going to have for your birthday next year? And when you said he just had his birthday, we're like... You know, and I'm thinking, you know, what would he be now? And what would he be doing? And, you know, I'd probably have grandchildren. And, you know, but he's only 13 to me.

And I know what I wanted to ask you, Nancy. How do you, what, I guess, you know, after all this time and his murder's not solved, and what if it isn't solved? I mean, do I, what do I do? Do I let it go or do I keep trying to put his story out all the time? I mean, what do I do? Do I let it go or I don't know? You know what?

I was just sitting here trying to figure out. I'm supposed to be the expert and know the answer. I'm like, oh, Lord, what's the right answer for what she just asked me? And it came to me. I don't think there probably is the right answer. I think I know the answer. I think I do have the answer. Because I vacillate.

Like for today, I almost didn't want to even call you and bring the whole thing up again. But I want the answer. I want the truth about Chucky. And I think that everybody go ahead and mock me if you want to. I really think that the Lord will provide what you need and what will get you through the day. For instance, I've been so excited about our Sirius radio show. You know? And I thought, oh, I want to talk about Chucky Mock.

I want to do this again. I want the story out there. I want the tip line out there. I want Kathy with me. And I remember after talking about Chucky on Dr. Oz or Wendy Williams, fate has a funny way. It's not fate. It's the Lord. Has a funny way of working, right? So it's in that vein, you know, as I always say, when you don't know a horse, look at his track record. If you don't know what's going to happen, look at what has happened because that's a blueprint. Please explain how you and I got connected.

Wow. Well, like I said, I worked in this doctor's office, and it was around Thanksgiving. And I was talking to some of my friends saying, you know, I need, I have to, I don't know what to do anymore about Chucky. I need to get his story out. If only I could get in touch with Nancy Grace. Your name, I just had this always, I've got to get in touch with you, but I don't know how to get in touch with her. And we had a drug rep that came to see us all the time. I loved him so much. And he, you know, he'd stop and talk to me and, you know, I asked him what he was going to do for the holidays and everything. And he says, well, I'm going to go to New York to see my sister. And I said,

well, you know, who's your sister? And he said, Nancy Grace. I thought, I can't breathe. And I said, do you have a moment? I've got to tell you my story. And I told him the story of Chucky. And he said, you get me everything you have, and I'm taking it to Nancy. And I thought, God, you've answered a prayer. I finally, you know, you've answered one of my prayers. I'm going to be able to talk to her.

She's going to help me. She is going to help me. And sure enough, you called me. At Thanksgiving, you called me, and you said you were going to help me. And I've got to tell you something. And you have. My people, no matter where I am, and I thank God for it, to tell you the truth. People ask me, does it ever bother you?

People are always coming up to you asking for help and wanting this and that. I'm like, no, no. I welcome it. I want to hear their stories. And I remember the moment my brother called me. I was coming up. I had done Larry King that night. I had worked all day, stayed at Court TV, and gone and done... No, how did it go?

Then I went and did HLN across town, and I had done Larry King, which was a real blessing to me. And I was on the way home, and my brother Mackie, as I call him, I saw his number pop up. And I answered the phone, and he started talking. And I'm like, okay, here's the story. Here's another story. And somebody wants me to do something. What is it?

What can I do? And I was listening, and he kept talking and talking, and I never said a word. And all of a sudden, I come all the way across town and was at my stop, and we were still talking about Chucky and you. And I'm like, don't say another word. I'm on it. And I hung the phone up, and I immediately, it was late by then, called my executive producer, Dean.

I'm like, we've got to do this. We've got to do this. And that was it. Yeah, you did it like right away. I just knew in my soul that if I could get, if somehow I could get in touch with you, you would know my story. You would listen. And of all these years that no one has ever helped me, you would. I always believed it.

I know you're not going to believe this, Kathy, but I figured something out. And you know what it took for me to figure it out? Many, many years, I was writing my book, 11th Victim, and the heroine in Eleventh Victim is Haley Dean. She's a much better person than me, let me tell you that right now. But she loves to solve crimes, and she loves to win cases, put the bad guy away. Because Haley, not me, of course, somehow, you know, every time she puts a band-aid on somebody else, it's like putting a band-aid on her. I mean, I get so much joy, I guess is the only word I know. It's not really joy, but I'm getting to talk to you and talk about Chucky and putting it out there again. It just feels like somehow we're putting it out in the universe and that somehow, some way, somebody knows something and somebody is going to come forward. Everybody, please, if you can hear our voices,

please go to CrimeOnline.com. I wrote a story a while back about Chucky. Alan is going to join me with a story of his own. And you'll see his picture, and you'll see and meet Kathy Miller. Kathy, my brother told me a story that you told him, and this is how it goes. You finally moved out of that house, and you were in your new house, and you were putting all the furniture in, and you were putting up pictures. That's what you were doing. And you had put up the pictures of Chucky and I am with you. I have, um, out, I have out all my letters from Keith. I have his baseball.

And I can walk by and touch him whenever I want to. You were putting up Chucky's pictures. So you got them all up. You walked out of the room. You hadn't been out of the room 10 minutes and all of a sudden, crash. You go back in. All the pictures, not one, the pictures of Chucky had all crashed to the floor, and your son has said he saw Chucky run through the house. Mm-hmm.

I know, it sounds crazy, but that's so true. I mean... Strange and unusual happenings, it's so true. I mean, and... He is with. It's so true. I mean, and he is with me. Tell me that part, please. Tell me that part. I want to hear that so much. That he's with me.

Every picture just fell. I mean, all at the same time, not one at a time. They were all at the same time. Just fell. And Greg just said, Mama, Chuck just ran through here. He just went down the hall. And so he's with me here. He's with me.

And that just really happened. You know, you asked me, should we just let it go? I don't know. I don't know how to let things go. I'm sure a shrimp would probably tell you to let it go, but I don't know how to do that. And it's like, if I let it go, then what kind of mama am I? You know, we know the answers. Our children, we were there when we gave birth to them. We were there when they're hurt. We're there in their good times. Well, I wasn't there when he died. And if I leave him, I leave him. Well, there's your answer right there. You can't let go of this any more than you can forget it. You can't let go.

People always say, you know, why are you still doing this? You've got to let it go. Well, if they would tell me, how do you let your child go? You know, you pick a child and you let it go. Well, if they would tell me, how do you let your child go? You know, you pick a child and you let them go. You know, you pick your child. Which one would you pick and you let them go? And you're right. That is my answer. I'll never let it go. I'm his mother and I need to know how my child died and why. I know everything else. I just got to know why him and why he died. And if he was scared, you know, and was the last thing he thought, maybe I need my mama. Because little boys always need their mom. I'm Nancy Grace and with me is Kathy Miller.

This is Crime Story signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.