Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Cold Case: Chuckie Mauk Killer Still Free

Episode Date: January 16, 2017

Nancy Grace digs into a cold case that's very personal to her: The murder of Chuckie Mauk. The 13-year-old boy was shot to death while riding his bike in a middle Georgia community in 1986. His mom talks to Nancy about her hope for justice decades later and the grief that won't go away. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. the time to buy candy. But one February night was different. Sometimes in those ensuing minutes, someone heard a loud pop. This is Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A lot of people saw things. They see a vehicle speeding away. As they approached, within the next two minutes, Chuckie's found the scene. There are people in this community that were in this community at that time that know what happened to Chuckie Malt and will have information. Hello. You are listening to Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us. Also joining me is a woman that I have come to

not only respect, but to care for very deeply as we both continue our search for justice in the death of her little boy, Chucky Mock. Just imagine this, 8 p.m. in the evening you're home with your family you know that moment when you finish supper and you've cleared off the table and you're washing the dishes and a knock comes at the door and nothing is ever the same for the rest of your life. With that knock at the door, everything changes. With me is Kathy Miller. Kathy, thank you so much for being with us. Thank you, Nancy.

Kathy, I want to go back in time to the last time that you spoke to your little boy, Chucky Mock, who is, I've looked at the picture of him and his baseball outfit. I know a thousand times. The last time you spoke to him, it was heavy on your heart because you didn't turn around and look at him. And I don't know why that aspect, that little fact bothers you, but you tell me the story. Well, it was Monday and Chucky had been sick like all weekend. This was his first day back to school and we had just finished eating supper. I was like he said, I was just doing the dishes. And he said, Mom, I'm going to run to the grocery store. And I said, OK, you know, just be back soon. And I did not turn around and look at him. You were at the kitchen sink, right? Yeah. And I just said, go ahead and go. Now, wait a minute. I want to clarify something. The grocery stores you're calling it was only, what, two blocks away?

Yeah, not even two blocks. I mean, you could walk to Giant Foods in about five minutes. I mean, it was just like right up the street. turn you go across a parking lot it's there is um i've looked at the area many times there is a thoroughfare where there are storefronts and red lights and then you go back a block and turn into like a little neighborhood and if you go as the crow flies you'll cross over and you'll be at the little grocery store in no time at all. So for him to hop on his bike, he could be there in a minute, really, on his bike. Exactly. Exactly. So you're at the sink. You're at the sink with your back to him. He goes, can I take my bike to get, I guess, bubble gum or candy?

And he did that almost every day. That was his big treat, to go. Yeah. Okay, so what happens? And then I'd say, go ahead. And, you know, before I know it, you know, he's flown out the door on his bike, and he's gone. And about, I don't know, it was about 30 minutes, maybe not that long, one of the little neighbor girls came to the door and said she saw Chucky and she thinks he's hurt. So I run just thinking, you know, he's fallen off his bike

and maybe broke his arm or something. So me and my husband, we run up there. It's just, I mean, I can see him from my driveway. And you had your six-year-old, Chucky's little brother, in tow. I grabbed Greg. Pete had grabbed Greg, too, and we were just all running up there. Pete got there before I did. I mean, have you, anybody listening, have you ever tried to run with your child in tow?

You're dragging them along by the hand, and it's hard. I can just imagine you coming out of the kitchen I was like yes and I was just like running in slow motion because I knew it was so much more why well wait well wait how when did you get that premonition pick me up you leave the house you've got your six-year-old chucky's little brother and you've got your husband chucky's stepdad and what happens and we're just running up there and i mean right from the end of our driveway you can see where he's laying i mean we're really that close and And he was just laying there. It was so still. And I knew. I knew. I just knew. Because he was so still? He was so still. And the closer I got,

you could see the blood. And it was just. And then my husband stopped me before I got to Chucky completely and told me that it was Chucky and he was dead. So at a distance, you're going as fast as you can with a six-year-old boy in tow, running, and you see your son, your little boy, lying sprawled out on the pavement of a convenience store parking lot beside his bicycle. I was told later he still was holding a pack of bubble gum in his hand. He had the bubble gum and the cash register receipt still in his hand. So that's how we knew what time he'd left the little grocery store. To this day, Kathy Miller recalls a horrible sense of dread as she ran as fast as she could, that foreboding, that feeling she was running in slow motion as she sees a crowd of onlookers already congregating,

and she sees her son lying on the pavement of a convenience store parking lot how did you know chucky was dead i knew because he was so still and because by the time my husband had gotten to him he got to check it before i did he identified chucky and he stopped me because he didn't want me to see. And he said that it was Chucky, and he was dead. And I knew there was so much blood, and he was so still. What did you think at that moment? What did you think had happened?

I just didn't know. I tell you, from the moment he told me Chucky was dead, I kind of went away in my head. I just went away. It was the only way I could handle it, I guess. I don't know. To this day, I don't know what really happened to me. But they thought it was a hit and run. And when they turned him over, the bullet had gone to the back of his head and came out his face, the side of his face.

So Chucky was shot from behind? Mm-hmm. The base of his neck, the shot severed his brain stem. So they said he died instantly. instantly you know Kathy I wonder to this day about what my fiance went through when he was shot and I can only pray that he was immediately unconscious now you know according to the medical examiner Chucky died instantly but you have told me in the past that you think of him lying in a parking lot, a dirty parking lot. Did he need you? Did he think of you? Did he call out for you?

Does that to this day haunt you? To this very day, that does. My head knows medically that Chucky died instantly. He probably never knew. But my heart says, you know, that's my child. Did he need me? And I wasn't there. You know, was he scared?

And I wasn't there. And my heart and my head tells me that he died instantly. He probably never knew. But my heart tells me that, was he scared and I wasn't there to help him. That always will be with me. You know, Kathy, all of these people that have had these near-death experiences, they die and they're resuscitated, and they talk about what happened.

Sometimes when I am still beside myself about Keith's murder or my father just passing away, I will stay up until 3 and 4 in the morning listening to those accounts. And they say, if they're to be believed, that you are immediately in another place, that you are immediately outside your body and feeling no pain whatsoever. And I got to tell you, I hold on to that. I really do. So even though the medical examiner says

he died instantly, as fast as a speeding bullet, you still wonder. Yeah. I do the same thing nancy i read all of that and i read these passages and i and i know it and i do know that in my head but still in your heart it just you know it's so hard it's just so hard. Kathy, when you say you, quote, went away when your husband told you Chucky was gone, what do you mean? What did that feel like to, quote, go away? It's such a strange feeling. And, you know, and I think if I say it aloud, people will think I'm crazy.

I don't think you're crazy. You know, it I think if I say it aloud, people will think I'm crazy. I don't think you're crazy. You know, it's just like I would talk. I could hear myself telling myself in my head. It was just like I was talking to myself saying, you know, to calm down or just things to. It's so hard to put in words. I guess it let me get through what I had to get through without mentally breaking down completely and just losing it. It helped me get through this, the funeral, all of that. My mind just told me to do things. And it just sounds. You once told me that you heard a voice in your head

saying at the funeral, that's not Chucky. Chucky's not there. Chucky's playing in Mississippi right now. He's not even here. And it was your voice in your head. It was my voice in my head. And I'd put him in places like, you know, he'd be in Mississippi because that was his favorite place to go to be with his grandparents. And just to get through going and walking into that funeral home, that's how I got through it. It just said, remember, it's not him. He's in Mississippi. And I got through that night. I want to understand something.

You're saying you were telling yourself that as you walked into the funeral home. I had a similar experience when I went into the funeral home where Keith was. At a distance, I saw his coffin, and I saw just a portion, a tiny sliver of his face, and immediately my knees buckled and I passed out I never went further or got closer to his casket and to this day I find the smell of um carnations yeah denagiating I cannot stand to smell them. That's why I don't really, that's like going into a florist.

It's just, it overpowers me. I hate it. I hate going into a florist. Me too. I just can't hardly stand it. That smell is that, it's the smell.

Of a funeral home. Oh, okay. You're the first person ever that I have talked to about that. And in my first fiction book, Eleventh Victim, the protagonist can't stand the smell of carnations. And that's, you know, me writing. I've never mentioned that. I find that so odd that you think, when I smell a carnation, it gives me just chills. It takes me right back to that moment. Exactly, right back to all those flowers.

It just, oh, it is, I try to avoid florists. Isn't, you know, it's just that smell. Let me ask you this. When you got through the funeral, when did it hit you? Not that, just that Chucky is gone, Chucky is dead, but somebody killed him. He didn't die in a hit and run. He didn't get sick in the hospital. Someone killed him. When did that

really sink in? I guess it really sunk in at the cemetery because I noticed there were police under like undercover policemen there just watching. And I guess that's what I knew that someone intentionally killed him you know it's the funniest things that stick with you you remember seeing undercover cops at Chucky's Cemetery I do I remember that. Alright, I'm just processing that that is the memory, one of the memories you have. What do you, you know, cops tell you this, investigators tell you that, witnesses tell you this. Kathy, what do you think happened to your boy? Nancy, I have ran so many scenarios and I've heard so much that maybe this happened and maybe this happened or it could have happened like this that I just, I just, I don't know. I can't, I can't understand it. I can't make something. It just doesn't make any sense i can't i don't know i just know we do know this we know that a white vehicle scratched off took off from that parking lot either at the time of the shooting or shortly after the shooting i'm talking about minutes after there are very few facts to go on

at the time of the shooting witnesses insist chucky was on his bike, just like he told his mom, who was with us today, heading for gum at the local convenience store. He stopped, seemingly to answer questions from a man. The man driving a white Oldsmobile, Cutlass, or Buick. Interesting, Kathy. Witnesses say, I'm not sure of their timing, but they seem to think he spoke to the guy 15, 20 minutes. Is that possible? Was he even gone that long? No, I don't think it was just a matter of minutes that he was seen leaning.

He was off his bike, leaning, talking to this person or persons in this car. Something happened. He turned quickly to get back on his bike. And that's when they shot him at close range in the back of the head. So I just feel whoever did this wanted him dead. Well, I'm wondering if he spoke to them that long, did he know them? Was it somebody in the neighborhood or somebody in the community? What do you think? Knowing Chucky, he would have to know them to have stopped to talk to him, to talk like he was like getting off his bike. I feel he had to know this person. Or what if it was somebody trying to lure him into the car,

and he said no and turned around to leave? That's what's on my mind, too. So we know it was, we think it was a white male. Do we think it's a white male? Yes, that's what we think so far. In a white Oldsmobile or Cutlass? People in the car. How many? Two, the driver and a passenger. Do we know if the passenger was a male or a female? I don't know that. Let me ask you, when you have gone over the facts in your head.

Do you recall police investigating? Did they go to every home in the neighborhood? Did they determine whether there was a relative staying in the home or a visitor that could have followed Chucky or seen him there? Do you know about that? I was told by the investigating officer at the time, the lead investigator, that yes, they did do that. The lead investigator at that time has passed, so he is dead now. So I don't, you know, that's what I know from back then. That's what I know.

I don't know if there was surveillance video in that 7-Eleven. Was there? No, no, there wasn't. And what information we know is just from someone that was in a car that passed by and saw Chucky. One of his friends was in a car, passed by and told their dad, there's Chuck. And then they went on home. They heard what had happened. They went to the police and gave a composite drawing of what little bit they saw. Tell me about the composite drawing. What did it look like? He had like acne scars. He looked rough, if you know what I mean, just kind of rough and acne scars. That's what I remember seeing. Is this the driver or the passenger?

And you know, I think it was the driver. I think that's who that composite was of the driver. This little boy just in the seventh grade loved Pac-Man, skateboarding. He played shortstop on his little league baseball team, the Red Legs, and he was so proud he had the highest batting average on the team. Who would do this? And not only who would do this, but who could have kept it a secret for all of these years? You know, Kathy, another thing you told me was about a stigma attached to having a murdered child. How would it be different if Chucky had died of an illness or a car accident? How I notice it is, you know, they'll say, well, what happened to your child?

And I always say that he was murdered. I see this look in people's eyes. It's just like, oh, you know. And I just want to say, you know, he wasn't a bad child he he wasn't a kid that was in trouble you know he was a very good kid he was well liked you know he wasn't bad he wasn't doing anything bad and it's like I have to defend him he had never been in trouble a day in his life he made good grades he was home every night for Pete's sake. He was just in the seventh grade. He loved Pac-Man. He was a star on a baseball team. I want to say he wasn't doing

anything wrong. He wasn't buying drugs. You know, he was just a 13 year old boy. Going to get bubble gum. It was in his hand for Pete's sake. You know, Kathy, what has really got me riled up is what that woman said to you that day. Do you remember the woman you told me about? Yes, yes. What happened? She, it was someone that I had, was taking care, I worked at a doctor's office and it was someone that uh a patient i don't know how to say that you know without saying you know who she was it was a woman that came in your office yes and she saw in my office she saw a picture of chucky and she said are you chuck's mother and i

said you know yes and she must have known about him and she just said are you Chuck's mother? And I said, you know, yes. And she must have known about him. And she just said that, you know, when parents don't take care of their children, God calls them home. Well, when she said that, it hit something deep inside me because I always thought, you know, if I had just watched him, if I had just said no, if I had just, just you know I should have let him go it really is my fault well she hit on all those insecurities and it took my breath and I had to walk out of my office and I was absolutely hysterical because what she said was something that I'd kept close to my heart and for a long time I believed that it my fault. I was the one that said you could go to the store. You know, I should have been a better mother. I shouldn't have let him go.

It was all those should-haves we do to ourselves. And she hit on my deepest, darkest secret. And I'll never forget it. I'll never forget how she made me feel. People tell you, I've had so many things said to me that, you know, you think you get hardened to it, but you really don't. Because in the deepest of your heart and in your mind, it's what they say is what you have said to yourself. You know, you blame yourself. You know, I was supposed to protect him and I didn't.

You mean there have been more people than just her? Yeah. You know, I've had, it's just, people just say such awful things like, well, you have one less room to clean. I've had that said to me. No, you did not tell me that. Yeah, that was, that was one that was told to me in the beginning. By, yes, by someone someone what do you say back see i would be so taken aback i would not even know what to say i i just can't even speak i i just i just can't even oh i just can't even say anything i don't know what to say because, first of all,

I just can't believe these words came out of someone's mouth. You know, how do you say, I don't know, I just don't know how people can say such hurtful things to someone that is hurting. But people don't know really what to say to people sometimes. After Chucky was killed, you could not stand to ride by that store every day to live in that house anymore. You moved. And you took all of Chucky's things very carefully with you to your new home.

Was there an incident in your home where all the pictures fell off the wall? Yes. What happened? We were we were moving in and I was hanging all the pictures and they all fell down. They all fell off the wall. Now were any of those pictures pictures of Chucky? They were all pictures of Chuck. It was just Chuck's pictures that fell. You were hanging up Chucky's pictures. You had them all up on the wall, all of them, with nails. And you walk out of the room, and when you walk out of the room, you hear a crash. And turn around and race back in the room.

And what did you see when you went into the room? They were all on the ground. They had all fallen off the wall. At once? Can't explain it, but they were just all off the wall. Now, was your other son in the room? Did he say anything at all? What did he say?

Yeah. He, we, I guess we have always felt that Chuck was here, and he just felt like Chuck was here with us. And I don't know, Nancy, if I ever told you about what happened on the first year anniversary of Chuck's death, about the phone call I got. No. What happened? I answered the phone, and it was a woman on the phone call I got. No. What happened? I answered the phone and it was a woman on the phone. Let me take you back. I always thought that maybe someone had kidnapped Chucky, that that really wasn't Chucky. That maybe somebody had kidnapped him. And I was waiting for a phone call that I knew people were going to call and ask me for money.

That was another way. That was my mind talking to myself. Well, I got this phone call on the first anniversary of his death. And this woman said, I have your son. Do you want to talk to him? And I said, yeah. And this little voice said, hey, mama. And then they hung up.

Oh, how awful. And so I went berserk because I knew that was Chucky and I remember calling my parents and telling them that we have to get all our money together that they're going to call back and ask for money you know and then everyone had to sit me down and say oh how awful who did that to you you know I used to dream that Keith, my fiance, was not dead. He had not been murdered. That really, he just wanted to start a new life. And that many years passed, and I found out he was somewhere else. Or that he was disabled from the gunshot, and he didn't want me to know.

And he had been alive all these years and I could go find him and I would go find him. Horrible, horrible dreams. Nancy, why do you think we think these things? You know, I think it's the way that maybe we can just survive this. I don't know. I think because I wanted it so much. I wanted him to be alive so badly that I would dream that. And in that dream, I could think that maybe it hadn he was alive and maybe I was getting him back and then you know after I called my husband he was at work he came home and you know they all

had to sit me down and just so it just like for that year it put me back like a whole another year like I okay I just heard it that he's really dead it was just so much going on. It just was so awful. But just for a moment, I can remember thinking, it's true. He is alive. But it really wasn't true. I knew it. He is alive. This was all, they're wrong.

That wasn't him. I knew it. Yeah, I said, and I kept thinking in my mind was saying, I tried to tell everybody that, you know, that couldn't be Chucky. It was somebody that had his bike. I knew he was alive. I just knew it. That was just, I guess, my way to survive. That's what I had to believe.

Was there a time when your son, Chucky's little brother, said he saw Chucky run through the home? Yeah. Gregory was really little then when he said that. And what were the circumstances surrounding that? Greg was, we had just moved in our house and that's when Greg said, Mom, I saw Chucky just walk down the hallway. He just passed me. And was wearing blue jeans. Yeah, he was in his jeans, what he always wore. Greg just told me that recently that he saw that because I would tell Greg strange things happen in this house. And he said, Mama, I saw Chuck here. But then, you know, Greg was very little. You know, he was only in the second grade when Chuck died. That makes me believe him even more, Kathy.

You know, when I would put witness on the stand, and I got to tell you, I know I had to have put over 1,000 witnesses on the stand. There's no question. I found children to be the most believable witnesses. They don't always talk the way we talk. Sometimes you have to unlock their language to understand what they're saying. But I found them to be the most truthful witnesses I've ever put on the stand. Next to a dog. I once had to bring in a dog witness, and I'm pretty sure the dog wasn't lying.

Kathy, I want to put out the tip number today. The tip line for any information in the murder of Chucky Mock, at that time a 7th grade boy who loved skateboarding and Pac-Man and was so proud to be on his little league team. This occurred many years ago, but Chucky is not forgotten. He will never be forgotten. This occurred in Warner Robins, Georgia. And Kathy, I guess you'll never forget the date.

February 17, 1986 at 8.15 p.m. The tip line is 478-542-2085 or 478-542-2080. Kathy, we're never giving up. We're never giving up, right? I'm never giving up hope either. Bye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.