Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Cold Case: Nadine O'Dell disappears on her way to babysit

Episode Date: July 17, 2018

Nadine O'Dell was on her way to babysit her boyfriend's younger siblings when she was last seen walking down a Michigan street on August 16, 1974. Then just 16, Nadine would be 59 now. But her family and investigatolrs have not given up on solving this cold case. Nancy Grace looks at the case with forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, private investigator Vincent Hill, Los Angeles psycho analyst Dr. Bethany Marshall, and Crime Stories investigative reporter John Lemley. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Visit truthfinder.com slash Nancy. Enter your own name. Get started. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. The shocking, the disturbing stories and reports regarding what we believe to be another and prolific serial killer,

Arthur Ream, has rocked the country. And what we are learning of him regarding a burial ground of sorts where young girls are buried, the same site where a young teen girl, Cindy Zarzycki, just 13 years old, was murdered and buried in little white Mary Janes, A shocking revelation that more teen girls and younger may have been Arthur Ream's murder and rape victims. The site, regarded as a so-called burial site for all these young girls, has not yielded what we had hoped for. And now those girls' names are re-added to a list of so-called cold cases. One of those young girls, Nadine. Nadine O'Dell goes missing when she's just a teen girl. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

We want answers. Nadine is not buried there, so where is she? What became of her? Is Arthur Ramsey just taking us all on a wild goose chase? He never said her name. It was just supposed that maybe she was one of his victims. But now, sadly, we have no clue about where this teen girl may be. Her sister has never given up.

Listen. That's Nadine right there. Nadine. Memories flood back as Brenda Lee Hamloser sees home video of her sister Nadine. I've never seen this much of it. There's Nadine. Oh my God. Where are you? Nadine Jean Odell was just 16 years old when she disappeared.

Inkster August 16th, 1974. She was walking to a babysitting job and never arrived. I know there's somebody out there that knows. You know, you hear it all the time. You know, somebody's seen something. And I know somebody had to have seen something. It was during the day and it was... Nadine was last seen after 9.30 a.m. walking down John Daly Road towards Michigan Avenue in Inkster Brenda says Nadine was babysitting her friends younger siblings and Taylor he would meet her at the halfway point she didn't make it to that

point he came to the house and he's like where's Nadine she wasn't there and that's how it all started I just remember is a very quiet person she you know played with us and she babysat it a lot This is the last picture that I know of that was taken over if she is alive Nadine would be 59 years old this age progression photo was done when she would have been 52 Brenda fears the worst but wants closure. Oh, I know she's dead. Oh, I know she's dead. Nadine wouldn't have stayed away. She would not have stayed away. She came home to my mom. I want to bring my sister home and lay her to rest. I don't care

if it's a bone, a piece of hair, a nail. I don't care. I just want my sister. She's out there somewhere, laying in the ground or wherever. The thought of your sister or your child, the only remains you have is, as she said, a bone, a fingernail, her hair. Dr. Bethany Marshall, L.A. psychoanalyst, that has got to be devastating that that's all you have left of your child. Not only is that all you have left, but you don't know what happened to them when they died. You know, for most of us, if a situation is ambiguous, we don't really quite know what happened.

We can't fill in the blanks. We fill in the blanks. We fill in the blanks with the most negative scenario. That's just human nature. Layer on top of that, that you know your loved one has gone missing and is probably dead. And it would fill your mind with fantasies of like torture, rape, not knowing what their last hours were like. So not just that you may just have like a bone or a hair, but you don't know what happened to that person in their final hours. The thought of it and playing it over and over and over in your mind and never really knowing. With me is John Loomley, crime stories investigative reporter, renowned LA psychoanalyst,

Dr. Bethany marshall and private investigator vincent hill john limley i want to talk about the so-called cold case and i hate that term because when people hear the words cold case a lot of times they just tune out but the pain of the family never gets tuned out it never goes cold goes on. And not knowing what happened to your child or your little sister, it never lets you move to grieving because you're always looking. That day, Nadine O'Dell was a babysitter. She's a kid herself, but she babysat. And she was on her way, on foot, not too far away to babysit. She never made it it what do we know about Nadine O'Dell John Limley she was a beloved sister as you can hear in that audio with her her sister uh just a moment

ago um she was the sister that this woman has always really wanted to get to know. John, I know this much. I know she's 5'1", weighed 105 pounds, little bitty thing. She went missing in Inkster, Michigan when she had just turned 16. A white female with blonde hair and green eyes. Really cute. And looks like her face was covered in freckles.

Her hair is kind of a strawberry blonde and the freckles match her hair. And she was on foot. And what's interesting about that, John Limley, is a lot of the other victims of Arthur Ream were also on foot. She was last seen wearing a white T-shirt, baggy jeans, and a high school class ring on a chain around her neck. All right. So, John Limley, she didn't have far to walk. No, not at all. And that seems to be the case with a number of these missing persons, these missing girls. One of them, Kimberly King, was just across the street from her grandparents' house when she's last heard from on a phone call.

Oh, gosh, you're giving me chills because you know what this reminds me of? Vincent Hill, private investigator. Do you recall this gorgeous little girl in Florida, Carly Brucha? She had been to a spend the night party the night before. Well, not a spend the night party. She spent the night with her little friend girl and decided to walk home. It was less than a 10 minute walk home. Okay. And she happened to cut catty cornered across the back parking lot of a car wash. You know, the kind that you drive your car into, which a lot of them you can see through the car wash itself. It wasn't like she was walking in an industrial area. It was a residential area.

But this one spot happened to have a car wash. She cut catty-cornered across the parking lot, and it's caught on video. You see the killer walk up to the girl, and I think she's 12, grab her by the arm and pull her off. That's the last she's ever seen. Her body, Carly Bruch's body, was found half-naked in the same town behind, in a wooded area behind Central Church of God. Okay. The guy was a predator. He was out looking. That's true.

But he just happened to see her. And she was gone. Just like that. Just like Nadine O'Dell. To Vincent Hill, why is it children on foot? They're such easy targets. Yeah, Nancy, and I think you hit the nail on the head. A lot of times these predators, what they do is they go into these neighborhoods

because they know at some point there's going to be a small child walking by themselves. And it's just like a DUI. You know the old saying that you usually have a DUI accident within a few miles of your house. It's just like an abduction. It's usually a few miles from the home because that's what these predators do. They go to these areas where they know small children, easy targets will be walking around and they can snatch them very easily. Again, faded baggy blue jeans, a white t-shirt, her then her little boyfriend's Taylor High School class ring on a chain around her neck. The ring is white gold

with a blue stone and a ram's head, blonde hair, green eyes, freckles. I'm taking a look at her age progression photos. Again, she's last seen walking in an Inkster, Michigan suburb in a neighborhood. She was on John Daly Road, walking toward Michigan Avenue. And what's another amazing thing, Vincent Hill, she was last seen at 9.30 a.m. in the morning. I mean, who's thinking about kidnapping, raping, and murdering a little girl at 9.30 a.m. in the morning? Well, obviously a predator. But, you know, the thing about these early morning abductions is everyone's too busy focused on getting to work, getting their kids to school, checking the mail, getting the newspaper. They're not really watching the things that we really should be watching. So if you think about it, it's actually a prime time to abduct someone because everyone's so focused on their

personal lives that they're not watching out for these predators. Nadine was on her way to babysit at a house in Taylor on foot. In fact, her little boyfriend, they were both just kids, was meeting her halfway and he got there. So just halfway between her home and halfway there, she was taken. Dr. Bethany Marshall, LA psychoanalyst, it almost seems too hard to take in that in that short of a moment she's gone but that is exactly the way it happens and i think about that dr bethany every time i pull up to the grocery store and i think i'll leave the children in the car it'll just be five minutes i'll run then i think just five minutes it turns into 10 That turns into 15 minutes. Just 15 minutes. And they could be gone.

Gone. Just like that. And I'm just thinking about her parents, the suffering they've been through. I want to circle back to what Vincent Hill was talking about. Who is thinking about kidnapping, raping, and murdering a child at nine o'clock in the morning. Well, you have a predator whose offending pattern is being a pedophile, right? Who has a certain target victim, you know, some pedophiles. Wait, now when you say it's a pedophile with a routine, we don't know who took her. We have no idea. In fact,

I don't believe anything that Arthur Ream spits out of his mouth because this guy, Arthur Ream, that people are attaching to Nadine's disappearance, I don't believe him and I'll tell you why. Because he actually admitted that he had considered making

up fake maps to give to police. I don't think, I think we're now looking at a young girl who went missing and we're attributing it to Arthur Ream. I don't necessarily believe that that's true, Dr. Bethany. So why do you say that the person that took her is a functioning pedophile. Well, I mean, most abductions are at the hands of non-custodial caretakers, okay? The stereotypical abduction rape is less than 1% of all children who go missing. And yet that seems to fall into this category because no non-custodial caretaker has ever been accused or come back.

In other words, you might have a divorce situation where, you know, the father doesn't have custody. He becomes obsessed with the child. He absconds with the child, takes the child from the mother. But usually that's a primary part of the news story. In this case, no relatives have been named. She just seemed to have disappeared into thin air, which tells me she's one of that 1% of rape, abduction, homicide of children where you do have a predator. And with pedophilia, you know, the victim is more than five years age difference between the perpetrator and the victim. The victim is prepubescent. Usually the perpetrator has a type.

You know, either they're an extra familial molester. Oh, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Let me talk to you about that. The type. I remember studying when I had my first serial murderer that i was prosecuting and i remember studying ted bundy oh and um let me tell you how this played out i was looking at all of his victims And so many of them were the same look, white female, thin, thin, long, dark hair. And in a lot of their pictures, kind of in a half updo, like maybe pull back with pins and then falling down.

And they all looked very, very similar. And the guy I was prosecuting, his victim, who remained a Jane Doe, I might add, we did a facial reconstruction from what we could find of her because she was partially decomposed when we found her. Can I tell you something, Dr. Bethany? I started research. I finally got my eye on a potential suspect and I managed to find his ex. Okay. I found his ex girlfriend. She, her face looked almost identical to the sketch artist rendition of what my murder victim looked like. Then I found a rape victim who said that her rapist put his hands around her neck and kept saying, I would have pretty neck you have.

I got her. I got her picture. You will never believe this Bethany all three of them were eerily similar in fact I use that my closing argument I put up a picture of the girlfriend the known girlfriend next to the graphic sketch the recreation of what the murder victim would have looked like. And in the end, I said, who would have killed her except for the man that tried to kill her? And I pulled him back and the jury actually went, they looked so similar. So when you say he had a type, I don't know what that means. I just know what I know, okay?

I know it's anecdotal. It's not statistical. So what do you mean by he has a type? Well, it's not just the type in terms of what the child looks like, but it would be the type in terms of the relationship with the child too. Now, I know that Reams, although he had one situation in which he abducted a girl with his brother-in-law, according to some other reports, he also liked to develop relationships with young girls where he tried to influence or coerce or dominate them. So I believe his type would be a prepubescent girl or even adolescent whom he could control or had some relationship with. The little girl we're talking about today, I have not heard any reports that she had somebody like that in her life. She appeared

to have disappeared into thin air, which tells me that whoever her perpetrator was or offender, that was his type, a little girl who's like away from her family, out in the world, no social ties that he can tie her back to where he has her all to himself. I don't know about appearance because we'd have to match it with other little girls maybe who have gone missing in the area. But in this case, it's not just the type in terms of what she looks like, but the offending pattern.

And that doesn't seem to match Reem's offending pattern. We also know, according to her sister, that she was very quiet and withdrawn. We are trying to find Nadine O'Dell, who goes missing, a teen girl, beautiful young girl, face covered in freckles. If you have information, tip line with Inkster Police,

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even people who served with them in the military. It's never been so easy to find the truth. Go to truthfinder.com slash Nancy and enter any name to get started. What happened to Nadine O'Dell, a gorgeous young strawberry blonde teen girl, her face covered in strawberry blonde freckles, a big smile known to be shy and quiet, was on the way to a babysitting job on foot when she goes missing. John Lindley, Crime Stories investigative reporter, what can you tell me, anything specific about the time of day or year that she went missing? Absolutely, Nancy. You and Dr. Bethany Marshall, have been looking at sort of the profile of a perpetrator. And if you look at the times of year that these different cases that have been possibly linked, and in some cases,

definitely linked to Arthur Ream, they all seem to take place during the warmer months between late spring and late summer, maybe early fall, all at a time when you're more likely to find people, especially teenagers, out and about. And as we've mentioned, sometimes on foot, going to meet friends at the Dairy Queen or going to church, they're out and more easily accessible. You know, that's a big clue, Vincent Hill. Yeah, absolutely, Nancy. And not only that, when it's warmer, you actually can see what your victim looks like, you know, with less clothes on. This guy apparently likes young women. And in the summertime, you would assume that they're dressed possibly in shorts, maybe a short skirt or something like that, so he could actually see what he's getting himself into. You know, to Dr. Bethany Marshall, L.A. psychoanalyst, going into the mind of a killer, it's almost like a hunter out looking for their prey. hunting and they're hunting from a neutral position, meaning that often these men, and very

rarely are they women, usually they live with families. The research shows they drive like a normal family vehicle, like a van or a truck. They usually have a couple of children. Often like the BTK killer, they work at their local church. They're like a deacon or something like that. They hold down jobs. So they are hiding in plain sight. But the rape abduction offending profile is like a compulsion to them. It drives them. Their sexuality is not a normal sexuality in that they want to attach to somebody, but it is their MO. It's their reason for living. It's their reason for being. And usually the compulsion is combined with either some kind of sadism, so they want to torture the victim, or if it's just sex without sadism, they end up killing the victim anyway, because they don't want the victim to ID them later. The victim is completely disposable to them. Well, another thing, I mean, just a function of a pragmatic function to Vincent Hill,

this would have been a Thursday morning at 930. That tells me this guy was not working at a job where he had to punch in like at a bank. Okay, or at Target or a manufacturing plant where he had to be there at 8 o'clock in the morning. I would think it was a local to the area where she went missing in Inkster. And that it was somebody that did not have to report to work before 930. And, I mean, think it through. Unless he took her home and bound her and gagged her and threw her in a closet, he disposed of her then, which means he would have been busy murdering up until lunchtime or sometime after.

Okay, so that is the person that got Nadine Odell. Yeah, and Nancy, these things happen kind of quick. To your point, he wouldn't have taken her home and just held her there while he went to clock in. So it tells me you're right. He was a local. He probably didn't have a job. If he did, it was an odd job where he didn't have to clock in, maybe landscaping or something like that. Again, this was during the warmer months of the year,

so definitely not somebody that had to be in front of a supervisor or where people would be able to give him an alibi. Is Nadine's killer and kidnapper Arthur Ream. I'm not sure I believe that. We are now attributing multiple murders to Ream, but we know that he plays mind games behind bars trying to trick police, claiming, boasting that he's responsible for multiple murders of young girls. But is he? Claiming he considered creating phony maps and false information to give police? What is he doing? Is he trying to use perceived information to cut a deal to get out of jail early to modify his current sentence in exchange for information?

What if that information is fake why should i believe a pedophile a killer that takes away focus from finding nadine odell take a listen to arthur reem in a secretly recorded conversation i mean you know the obvious question that people will want to know is did you have anything to do with these other cases did you know any of these girls did you ever meet any of these girls not even close not even a little bit i've never never had anything to do with any of them there's there's absolutely no connection between me and them at all you know i don't know you know other than this detective i'm not the story. The detective is the story. If you want a real story, this detective owes

the families of these six girls, he owes them a big apology for getting their hopes up in this case. He owes Cindy's family, Cindy Zardzicki's family, a big apology for bringing up bad memories.

And he owes me an apology for just getting me dragged into this. And he owes the people of Warren an apology for sending the kind of money that he did on a hunch. What? Arthur Ream is saying that police owe him an apology? John Limley, Crime Stories investigative reporter, he's claiming that they owe him an apology. John Limley, Crime Stories investigative reporter, he's claiming that they owe him an apology. Is that correct, John Limley? More specifically, Rehm is saying that police should apologize to taxpayers for the money that they spent on the search and to the families of the missing girls. He states that they owe them a big apology for getting their hopes up in the case.

He owes Cindy Sarzicki's family a huge apology for bringing up bad memories. Vincent Hill, did you hear Arthur Reams say the police owe him an apology? Yeah, I heard that, Nancy. I can't believe it, but yeah, I heard it. I heard it. I thought I heard that correctly. Owe him an apology. This is a guy with multiple sex attack convictions, one murder conviction. He's saying cops owe him an apology.

The first thing I want to address, but he also says Cindy Zarziki's family, they found her body. John Lindley, didn't they find her body? Right. They found pieces of her body. And they do say, and the last thing that he, Arthur Ream, said in this after he talked about that essentially the police owed the world an apology. He says they owe me an apology for just getting me dragged into this. So Dr. Bethany Marshall, he's saying the cops owe him an apology and Cindy Zarzycki's family an apology.

They, because of police, found Zarzycki's body, okay, number number one because of the police but then based on things arthur reem himself said behind bars they started looking in a general wooded area for the other bodies including the body of nadine odell which they did not find in a a nutshell, if it can be done, Dr. Bethany, why would he be so grandiose as to say cops owe him, the killer, an apology? You already answered the question. It's the grandiosity of that profile and also lack of victim empathy. He's not, as you said, concerned about the fact that victims have been found. And thirdly, he's having his, you know, 15 minutes of fame. I mean, this is quite exciting for him. You know, he has a pulpit.

He's going to give his message to the public and let them know that he knows something the police doesn't know. He's like the holder of what's right, the holder of morality, and he's going to demand the apology. Well, one thing that it's doing is clouding the search for Nadine O'Dell. We are listening to an interview that Reem gives the Detroit Free Press. He goes on. This is totally torpedoing the search for Nadine.

He looked at a crystal ball or something, and that's what he went by. He didn't go by anything but a crystal ball. Well, he said that you failed a polygraph test it's out of what a lie detector test a what a lie detector what about it you failed it so he says yeah when did you take it i'll take another one if you want. No, I'll tell you what happened with that. It's a silly thing, but it happened. And I didn't think about it until later. When he came up to see me, he took a bunch of my property.

What did he take? We know you know where the bodies are. We want to know, blah, blah, blah. Well, with Cindy, I drew a map. Tell them where she was. So I was so mad at this detective, I drew some maps up, and I was going to

give them to him and let him go dig. I was just going to have him go dig willy-nilly someplace, you know, that I knew. Well, when the guy gave me the test, he says, are you going to be honest about these three? And I says, yes.

In reality, I wasn't going to be because I was going to give the detective the maps. So that's probably why I failed it. Now, that might not be why, but, you know, that's the only reason I can think. I'm not a dumb person. And I would have never taken that polygraph if I thought there was one chance that I would have failed it. Oh, wow. He is grandiose, talking about how he's not dumb, that he thought he was going to fail, but maybe the reason he failed is because he was planning to give detectives phony maps. Vincent Hill, why should we believe anything this guy has to say?

Because he's planning, as you heard, to have cops go dig, quote, willy nilly. Yeah, we shouldn't believe anything this guy says. I mean, he says the reason he failed the polygraph test is because he knew he was going to lie to the police. So, I mean, who would even take anything this guy says, not only as the truth, but as serious, you know, it's just mind-boggling. What about it, Dr. Bethany? Well, I think he's actually proud of himself that he lied about one thing rather than another remember we were talking recently about the btk killer and how he bragged in court that he comforted one of his victims before he killed her and he thought that they would be proud of

him like he deserved a big reward or applause for that now now he deserves applause because you know it's not that he killed somebody. All he was doing was just giving them fake maps. I mean, isn't that clever? So I think he actually thinks people are going to be amused by him. He goes on to say, to be honest with you, on one hand, I was laughing my

ASS off. On the other hand, I was pissed off. So take it for what it is. There's no bodies there that I know of after getting all the families upset. But you know what? I won't say it. Let's listen to Raymond in his own words. Do you know anybody else who's buried?

No. No. The only person I've ever buried in my whole life is Cindy. And I didn't kill nobody in my whole life., and I didn't kill nobody in my whole life. Okay. I didn't kill anybody in my whole life, and the only person I ever buried was Cindy? Well, Cindy was dead when he buried her. John Limley, Crime Stories investigative reporter.

How is he explaining what he found her dead and then buried her? Isn't it true he lured, I think she was about 12 years old, little Cindy Zerziki. She had a little boyfriend who was Reem's son. And he told her that they were planning a surprise birthday party at the local Dairy Queen, lured her out of the home, and then she disappeared. She was found buried in that area with the same little purse and Mary she disappeared. She was found buried in that area with the same little purse and Mary Jane shoes.

So what is his story about how she got there? She just dropped over dead and he buried her? He said that her death was accidental and that the only crime he committed was actually trying to cover up her death by burying her. He is just playing mind games in such an evil way. Vincent Hill, private investigator,

what do you think this does to Nadine O'Dell's family for him to suggest he knows where Nadine's body is? And it's all just a big lie. It's just slap in the face, Nancy. I mean, I couldn't imagine being her family after so long of looking for your loved one that this guy's like, yeah, yeah, I'm just, whatever. Just so nonchalant and noncaring about it. It is a total slap in the face to the family. Take a listen. What have you heard about that dig? Oh, I haven't heard much. I haven't got my TV back yet. So, you know, when they moved,

I watched it a couple times on TV. To be honest with you, on one hand, I was laughing my ass off, and on the other hand, I was pissed off. So, you know, you take it for what it is. You know, there's no bodies there that I know of. So they can take until the time comes when I already know what he's going to say when they don't find nothing there that detective is going to turn around and say, well, we have other sites that we're looking at right now.

I already know how this is going to play out. This detective, he's not going to give up. So, you know, he's just going to keep on saying, well, yeah, we got other sites. Or like when he couldn't find anything here, he was so sure he was going to find something at this site.

Almost mocking the detectives. And did you hear the part? I haven't seen my TV in a few days. This guy is sitting back, as he says, laughing his ass off at detectives watching his cable TV. How do you think that makes Nadine O'Dell's family feel? He's watching our coverage. I want to come see him.

What would you say to him? I want to come see him. Because you know what? If Nadine is here, if Nadine is here, and I look like her so much, how does it feel for the dead to look at you in the face? You ain't seen crazy. I'm coming for you. To be honest with you, on one hand, I was laughing my ass off. And on the other hand, I was pissed off. So, you know, you take it for what it is.

There's no bodies here that I know of. Dr. Bethany Marshall, L.A. psychoanalyst. Dr. Bethany, in a way, it reminds me of Hannibal Lecter in Silence of the Lambs. Not that this killer, Arthur Reams, is anywhere near the mental capacity of Lecter, but the grandiosity, the big man on campus he's got the knowledge he's walking back and forth to the chow line every day all the other inmates know he's playing the police he's getting press i mean he's the man right now you You know, Nancy, when I was listening just now to his voice,

he actually, I think he fancies himself like a news anchor or a news announcer. He says it like he's delivering the evening news. Like, you know, he's talking about, you know, what's going to happen with the detectives, and he's making like social comments on whether the resources should have been spent and, you know, looking in that particular place. I think he feels, when you see grandiosity, I think he feels that he's calling the shots. He's like calling the game. He's like the radio announcer. It's really kind of creepy. And he actually believes that people care whether or not he has his TV. That's how grandiose he is. Like we care

if he has his TV in itself. Right now, the search for a teen girl who goes missing en route to a babysitting job, she's on foot, Nadine O'Dell, has been clouded by known child rapist, known killer, Arthur Ream. And now he's sitting grandiose behind bars giving interviews. Here he is speaking to the Detroit Free Press. You have kind of a reputation, some of the police, others have said, that you like to kind of play with people, to mess with their minds and stuff like that. Is that fair or accurate? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, why not?

You know, I mean, I don't hurt anybody with it. You know, I don't get carried away. That's what I was saying. With this detective, I was going to give him those phony maps, you know. But like I said, I changed my mind. But, you know. But like I said, I changed my mind. But, you know. Did you tell anybody you were going to make phony maps for him or that you were going to make maps?

No, no, no. I didn't say nothing to him about it. Okay. So to be clear, you never wrote any maps or anything like that? No, no, no, no. There's Arthur Ream. I mean, John Limley, Crime Stories investigative reporter, the whole reason police did this intensive dig, this excavation for these missing girls, including Nadine O'Dell, was because of what Arthur Ream said? Exactly.

And another contradiction is that while in prison, Ream reportedly told cellmates that he was a serial killer. As we just heard earlier, he said he hadn't killed anyone. He buried someone, but he said he didn't kill anyone. And he claimed to this cellmate that he had killed four to six victims. We also know he failed a polygraph test. I mean, really the only hope to Vincent Hill, private investigator, is that somehow based on all of these interviews he's giving, we're listening right now to one, two, he gave to Detroit Free Press,

that we can somehow glean the whereabouts if he is connected to the other girls and hope they're in another jurisdiction. Because in Michigan, he can kill all the little girls he wants to and never get the death penalty. Yeah, that's right. But the nice thing about this is there's always a clue. And every time this guy speaks, Nancy, there's always a clue that he's going to release to investigators. Whether he knows it or not, these guys are trained. This is their job to find this information.

So let them keep talking because it's going to lead to what we need to know well then let's listen warren police said you bragged about killing four to six people while in prison yeah i'd like to know who i brag to ah that's not true i've never i've never said that to anybody where do you think they could be getting that from? Well, let me put it this way. The two, the detectives from Warren, I'm assuming that's who it was, came up here, or not here, but Muskegon, called people off the yard that don't even know me, that I've never talked to in my life offering $1,000

if they could get me to tell them where bodies are. Now, I don't think that was right. Guys are coming to me and saying, hey, I got interviewed about you. And I'm saying, I don't even know you. But they offered me $1,000 if I could get you to talk. He doesn't think that's right? To John Lindley, Crime Stories investigative reporter, explain how this is going down.

What do you mean, he doesn't think it's right that police order inmates $1,000 rewards, if that's even true, in exchange for verifiable information as to where dead bodies of little girls are hidden. Why is that wrong? Did that really happen, John Lumley? His claim is that these inmates will, they'll say anything to get their hands on maybe less prison time, to get money. He's saying it's only in their best interest to make up a story. Now, he has said repeatedly that he has never killed anyone. Listen to this ridiculous explanation of how little Cindy Zarzycki died. I'll give you the quick details. Okay. Cindy was at my

warehouse. They were on some carpet. She fell, went backwards down the elevator chute, and died. I'm responsible. The reason why I'm responsible

is because I wired the gate up. You know, if the gate was down where it was supposed to be, she would have never fallen. You know what I mean? So I'm responsible for her death because I wired the gate up. You know, so I wouldn't have to keep up and down, up and down. But why did she go to your warehouse? I mean, she was going to the Dairy Queen, I thought. Because that's where, that's where they hung her. That was my son's girlfriend.

So you're saying Scott was there at the time, too? Right. I wasn't there. I, you know. So then you got to read the paper. I don't have the paper. That's why I have to ask you. Sorry. So then he, so now she falls down there, she dies, then you come and try to clean up the mess?

Is that what happened? He called me instead of 911. I always hear him call 911, the dumbass. But, you know, me, I fix everything. So, you know, he called me instead. So I get there. I could see she was dead right from the get. You know, he's screaming at me.

I don't know what to do. I just started my business. You know, it just started going good. I got no insurance, you know, nothing. So I panicked. Now, I panicked. Now I panicked, he's panicked. You know, so what to do, what to do. I ended up making the decision that I made. It was probably the worst decision I ever made in my life, but then I made it, and here I am. Wow. So this idea that she was raped before she was killed, is that false?

No. I mean, where did they get that from? Who puts that out there, you know? The prosecutor at the police put that out there. Right. You know, that's for show. Everything is for show, you know? Like I'm saying, you can't sell a newspaper without making me look like a bad guy.

Is it possible? Everybody wants what's worse. They don't want to know that Cindy died accidentally. It would have never made the newspaper. They want sensationalism. They want gore. So why do you think they've come back to you? Why do you

think they targeted you with these, with these additional murders? You have to ask the guy from Warren that. I don't know. I just don't understand it myself. You know, where he, where he comes off thinking that I killed six girls. The guy's a genius. If he can clean up six 30-year-old cases in one swipe, he's got to get the Nobel Peace Prize. You are listening to convicted killer behind bars, Arthur Ream, who is apparently leading police on a wild goose chase in the search for the body, among others, of Nadine O'Dell, muddying the water in her investigation, the search for Nadine. Let me ask you this to Bethany Marshall. Do you notice when he's coming up with a story about how Cindy Zarziki fell down an elevator shaft and died,

as opposed to earlier when he was speaking so rapidly and so full of piss and vinegar. Now he pauses as he's trying to come up with the story. Yeah, I did notice that. And he's pretending to be thoughtful. Like he's actually offering people something. You know, Nancy, criminals are such children. They're babies. They're very childlike in their behavior.

And I don't know if you notice, remember when Lucy and John David were really little, they would do one tiny little thing for you and they would act like they've done so much. And that's appropriate for children. Like they might bring you a Mother's Day card and they feel like, you know, they have just given you the world, or they might pick up a dish from the table and they feel like they've, they're so proud of themselves, almost as if they've cleaned the entire house. Well, that's appropriate for children at that developmental age. But sociopaths will drop tiny little bits of information, and then they feel like they've helped others so much. They've been so wonderful. They deserve all this praise. So I think the way he's telling the story, he's really quite proud of himself.

Like he's entertaining people, helping people. Like he's really the boss there, the big man, like you said earlier. You know, I also notice, and I guess this is common, Vincent Hill, we've dealt with so many criminals. He blames everybody else. First of all, he's blaming the investigators. And actually, he says, quote, laughing my ass off. And he blames them saying they've dragged me in on this thing. Well, I guess so. Then he blames the inmates for speaking to the police. And he blames police for offering rewards for information about where the little girl's bodies are hidden. Then he blames his own son, okay,

for not calling 911 and calling him. He blames everybody else but himself. Vincent, is that common amongst dyed-in-the-wool criminals? Nancy, it's still common, but, you know, there's this word that's been out for quite a while now. It's called evidence, and these police didn't just stumble upon this guy and just make this story up. You heard he said they wanted to do it because people like sensation.

Well, yes, people like sensation, but police, we like evidence, and the evidence points to Reem. That's why they're focused on him. And is it true, John like evidence, and the evidence points to Reem. That's why they're focused on him. And is it true, John Limley, Crime Stories investigative reporter, that police are now searching other areas for Nadine and other bodies? That is the truth. They have moved on from that original search area after not finding any more evidence that there are more bodies in that area. They have not named the exact areas for obvious reasons, but they have now expanded their search.

Well, Arthur Ream is taking focus away from finding Nadine O'Dell, but one person remains focused on finding her. Listen. This is the final chapter. And I know I keep saying that too, but it is. She's just across that tape. I keep saying this. And one day she was there and the next day she was gone. That's why I can't leave here.

Tip line 313-563-9850. The search for Nadine Odell goes on. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. for people with something to hide. Have you ever had a bad feeling about somebody? Suspect that a partner of cheating? Worried about your online reputation? If you answer yes to any of those questions, you may need Truthfinder. Truthfinder may reveal court records, bankruptcies, contact information, social, dating profiles, assets, and a lot more. You get it all in one easy to read report. Why fork out thousands of dollars to a private eye when you can do the job yourself? Go to truthfinder.com slash Nancy and enter any name to get started. This is an iHeart Podcast.