Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - College Instructor "Sweetheart" Mows Down Cop-Boyfriend

Episode Date: February 8, 2022

Boston police officer John O'Keefe dies after being hit by a car and left outside during a snowstorm. The Norfolk District Attorney’s Office says it is believed that Karen Read, 41, backed into her boyfriend, 46-year-old O’Keefe, after dropping him off at a party. . Earlier in the evening the couple was at the Waterfall Bar in Canton until after midnight. Read did not attend the party, saying her stomach was hurting. She reportedly struck O’Keefe while making a three-point turn. The next morning, when O’Keefe did not return home, Read and two friends reportedly found the off-duty officer outside the Canton residence, bleeding and bruised. He was pronounced dead at a hospital. An autopsy determined O’Keefe suffered multiple skull fractures and hypothermia. Both of his eyes were swollen shut, and he also had cuts on his right arm and the back of his head. Read pleaded not guilty on charges of manslaughter, leaving the scene of a motor vehicle collision causing death, and motor vehicle homicide. Joining Nancy Grace Today: Jim Elliott - Of Counsel, Butler Snow LLP, www.butlersnow.com, Instagram: JimElliott1957 Dr. Jenn Mann - Marriage and Family Therapist, Host 'Couples Therapy' and 'Family Therapy' on VH1, "The Dr. Jenn Show” on Sirius XM, Author: "The Relationship Fix: Dr. Jenn’s 6-Step Guide to Improving Communication, Connection and Intimacy", doctorjenn.com Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder, ColdCaseCrimes.org, Twitter: @ColdCaseTips Dr. Tim Gallagher - Medical Examiner State of Florida www.pathcaremed.com, Lecturer: University of Florida Medical School Forensic Medicine. Founder/Host: International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference Jennifer Dzikowski - Investigative Journalist Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Do you love country music? Because I love country music. I'm forever singing to the Twins. We'll burn that bridge when we get there. They call the thing the rodeo. Man, what a great song this would make. But sadly, it's not just a song. It's not just lyrics to a country music ballad.

It's real. And it includes a dead body. Love Gone Bad is certainly putting perfume on the pig. I've got to explain. I've got to figure out why a Boston Business School finance professor is charged with homicide for running over her cup boyfriend and leaving him to freeze to death in a 23-degree nor'easter. And sadly, I've got a list of similar transactions as long as my arm. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. Why not just get a divorce? Why do you have to run him down? And in one case I've got, put it in reverse and back over him. First of all, let's just start

with this. Take a listen to our cut one investigative reporter Ted Daniel, Boston 25. We've been working our sources to find out what may have happened this weekend. The cause of Officer Keith's death has not been officially determined, but this is important. Twenty five investigators learned O'Keefe had a serious head injury. He suffered some sort of trauma. The case is being handled by detectives assigned to the Norfolk County DA's office. 25 investigators learned they're looking at the possibility O'Keefe may have been struck by a vehicle. I asked the Norfolk DA's office about

that. A spokesperson was unable to comment because of the ongoing investigation. That's pretty standard in a case like this. Officer O'Keefe's body was discovered outside a home on Fairview Road in Canton around 6 o'clock Saturday morning. The home belongs to another Boston police officer. It was snowing hard at the time and temperatures were in the teens overnight. According to the DA's office, O'Keefe appeared to have been in the cold for some time. Before I introduce to to our whole panel and what a panel it is, let me go first to Dr. Tim Gallagher, the medical examiner for the entire state of Florida. First of all, breathe easy just a moment, Gallagher, because this time it's not

Orlando. This time it's not Florida. So Dr. Tim Gallagher, you can find him at PathCareMed.com. Listen to this. University of Florida Medical School forensic medicine professor, founder and host of the International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference, which, again, I just can't say enough. To a lot of people, they go, ew, to me, that sounds like just, Jackie, how great would that be? Absolutely. International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference. It just doesn't get much better than that.

Okay, Dr. Tim Gallagher, did you hear what investigative reporter Ted Daniel, Boston 25, said right there at the end? According to the district attorney's office, O'Keefe, who is in great health, he is a cop, appeared to have been in the cold for some time. What does that mean? Well, that means that when we acquire his body, and again, Nancy, you're absolutely right. I'm in Florida. We don't get a lot of these hypothermia deaths, but occasionally we do. Sometimes it gets down to about 70 in Miami and we get a few. Rub it in, Gallagher, rub it in. What does that mean? You look at a body and you automatically know he's not just cold. He's been out there a long time.

You do because there's such a thing as rigor mortis and that's the stiffening of the body. But that happens to everybody no matter what the temperature when they're dead. It sure does. But it dissipates after a certain amount of time. But if the body is cold and it's been out in the cold for a very long time, it does not dissipate until that body is warmed up again. You know, so if we know that he has been out there for a time period by which the

rigor mortis would end and he still has it, then we know that he has been subject to either refrigeration or cold temperature. You know, I was expecting something completely different. I didn't know you were going to say, Dr. Tim Gallagher, the rigor mortis would have been relaxed. In other words, his limbs would have rigored, stiffened, and then unstiffened. I thought you were going to say something like the body was gray, the lips were blue, there was frozen residue from his breath around his nose and mouth. His eyes were frozen shut. His hair was full of ice. His temperature was same as ambient

air, which would have been in the teens. His nails, fingernails and toenails were blue. His tongue was frozen. That's what I thought you were going to say, but you didn't. Are any of those things true when you find a frozen body? Okay, take another shot at it. You know, let me just enjoy this moment just for a minute when a lowly, hey, Jim Elliott, high-profile lawyer, joining me out of Warner Robins of Council, butlersnow.com. How often do we get to correct a medical examiner or any doctor?

Never. So can you and I just enjoy this moment, Jim Elliott? Yeah. See? See? It never happens. I'm understanding the great rivalry between the two professions, right? I don't have a rivalry.

I know they're smarter than us. I don't know why lawyers think that. But let me just enjoy the moment of making Dr. Tim Gallagher take a second swing at the ball. Okay, Dr. Gallagher, hit it. Okay. Well, Nancy, when a body is subjected to cold temperatures, we'll see, sometimes we'll see ice crystals in the hair. Sometimes we'll see that the eyes are hair sometimes we'll see that's what i said eyes are often frozen shut that the limbs are frozen that the muscles are are frozen all the way

through we do see that a lot in chicago during the um during the winter months or even some of the summer months um but the the difficulty with that is the moment the body is defrosted, which often takes about two or three days to do very slowly, it immediately decomposes and we lose a lot of the evidence. Okay, wait a minute. Wait a minute. I've got to get that through my head. As soon as the body defrosts, which takes two or three days, why does it take two or three days for a body to defrost? Well, we have to do it very slowly because it'll decompose. Oh, this is at the medical examiner

defrosting. You don't mean like in my kitchen sink. No, you wouldn't want to do that. No, I'm saying typically something would defrost much faster than three days. So why does it take a human body three days to defrost? Well, because we're trying to do it in a scientific manner. We want it, we take it out of the freezer and put it in a refrigerated area and then raise that temperature a couple of degrees every few hours to defrost it very slowly. We're trying to preserve a lot of the evidence on the body, such as bruising or penetrating injuries. What's that? A penetrating injury? What's a penetrating injury? Well, a penetrating injury could either be a ballistic type injury

from a bullet being shot or it could be a sharp force type injury from being stabbed. And also we have to look out for blunt force injuries, which are someone being assaulted by a blunt weapon such as a baseball

bat or the credenza. So we have to be careful about that a credenza you mean the piece of furniture that's behind a desk that's the one why would somebody be hit with a credenza you need to call your backup man i'm telling you hold on a moment now let me understand this so there's a whole science to defrosting a human body. Cheryl, did you know this? Cheryl McCullough? Absolutely.

And what he's saying is so imperative, Nancy, because you don't want to lose. That was a yes-no, Cheryl. That was a yes-no. I'm sorry. You're not. Yes, I'm sorry. You're not sorry. And we all know you're not sorry.

Hold on. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Dr. Gallagher, there is a whole science to defrosting a body. And from what I'm slowly pulling from you, like I'm a dentist, okay, which I'm not, pulling a tooth, you get the body, you start to defrost it. First, it's in the freezer. You take it out of a freezer. You put it in a medical examiner's refrigerator. And then you very slowly, such as a couple of degrees at a time, you warm up the fridge so the body defrosts very, very slowly so you can preserve physical evidence

on the body, such as bruising or penetrating injuries, such as gunshot wound or knife or you said credenza. I don't know where that came from, but that too. So, Dr. Gallagher, you're telling me that if the body heats up too quickly, you lose that evidence because the body immediately decomposes? Yeah, it goes into a very accelerated rate of decomposition. And you have to also remember, we're trying to collect foreign DNA from the body as well. So when the skin decomposes, it becomes very liquidy and we could lose foreign DNA from the surface of the body too.

So that's the rationale between defrosting very slowly and not doing it that way. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. So to Jennifer Sikowski joining us, investigative freelance journalist. Jennifer, you've been on so many cases. You ever had a frozen body case? I have not. Wait, didn't we do?

Was it Shannon Young in Indiana? We had Graves, Shannon Graves. Shannon Graves found in a freezer in Indiana, right? And I was giving a speech there and went down to the hotel restaurant and I heard a judge and a lawyer talking. So I went up and said, hey, what's going on? And they told me about this case and I found out about Shannon Graves found in a freezer. Yes. You didn't do that one, Jennifer? I did not do that one. Okay. So have you ever had a frozen body? Did you say? No,

I have not. Well, I've read about many living in Wisconsin, but I've never gone into depth on one. Well, I'm glad we're here first. Okay, take a listen now to our cut two. This is Ryan Kath, NBC10. The Norfolk District Attorney tells me an autopsy was performed today, which will hopefully answer the question of how Officer O'Keefe died. Right now, I'm told foul play has not been ruled out. Investigators are also trying to determine why he was apparently outside in the cold for an extended period of time. First responders found O'Keefe just after 6 a.m. and took him to Good Samaritan Hospital in Brockton, where the 16-year veteran of the force was pronounced dead. The DA's

office said O'Keefe was outside a property on Fairview Drive and knows the person who owns the home. Property records show the home is owned by someone who has the exact same full name and middle initial as a Boston police sergeant. The department would not confirm that. Today, I also checked and asked if any internal affairs cases have been opened and if anyone has been placed on administrative leave. A spokesperson told me the answer to that is no. Wow. So immediately the police department is asked if internal affairs cases have been opened and if anyone has been placed on administrative leave.

I find that really interesting. Cheryl McCollum joining me, founder and director of Cold Case Research Institute. You can find her at coldcasecrimes.org. Cheryl, why would they immediately ask, they find this cop dead with some kind of blow to the head, and he's frozen. He is frozen through and through. Why would they immediately ask if internal affairs cases have been opened?

And if anybody's on administrative leave? Because early on, they didn't know what happened to him. So they're going to look at, you've got a dead body out in front of a sergeant's home. What do the police know? And that's the best way to find out what they know. Have y'all started an internal affairs investigation? That means you must be looking at that sergeant that owns the home. If they haven't, then they're not looking at him.

Real quick, A to B. Guys, what happened to this victim, John O'Keefe? First of all, when I don't know the answer, I look at the victim. Who is O'Keefe? What do I know about him? Take a listen to our three reporter Drew Kyrides, Boston 25. Officer O'Keefe visited the Boston 25 news studios in 2014 to talk about a fundraiser for his niece and nephew who lost both of their parents. O'Keefe went on to care for those kids following the deaths of his sister to a brain tumor and his brother-in-law to a heart attack in a matter of months. A statement released by the O'Keefe family says,

People talk about someone who would give you the shirt off their back, but that was truly who John was. And it is heartbreaking for us to suddenly be talking about him in the past tense. To Dr. Jen Mann, guys, you know her well. Marriage family therapist, host of Couples Therapy and Family Therapy on VH1. The Dr. Jen Show, which is awesome, on Sirius XM. And she is author of The Relationship Fix. You can find her at drjen.com.

Dr. Jen, you know, I hear women say all the time there are no good men left. Well, that's not true. I've got one. David Lynch is a great guy. And he's taken, Jen, so back off. I got a good one myself. So you're safe. Your man is safe with me.

Thank you. Did you just hear what Drew Carity said, Boston 25, when this guy's niece and nephew lost both of their parents, including his sister? He took the children in and was taking care of them. It is said he would give you the shirt off their back. He sounds like a saint. He sounds like one of the sweetest, kindest human beings

who is there for children in need, who takes on responsibility, who is a protector, who's a hero. He sounds like an amazing, he was an amazing human being. And Dr. Jen, just, you know, making a donation in the church plate, that's one thing. But actually taking the children into your home and agreeing to raise them, that is a lifelong commitment he made. Absolutely. And also, these are children who've been through a terrible loss. And as we know, a lot of the time when children have been through a terrible loss, they have a lot of their own issues that have to be worked out. And so to take that on, especially, what a wonderful person. You know, I'm just thinking this through about

what happened. And I just, I just made a note. It was about, can't they tell by looking at him, Dr. Tim Gallagher, whether he had a blow to the head or whether he was struck by a car? Can't they look at the imprint on the head and determine that? Well, you certainly can, Nancy. Great question. We do have a lot of technology that we use in conjunction with our visual inspection. We take x-rays, and we can see broken bones from the x-rays. We also have something called a LODOX CT, a CAT scan machine that we can put the entire body through and it'll show us in very good detail,

the bone structure and all the organ structure. So if there was any damage to the organs, such as the lungs or the brain, or even the heart, it'll be demonstrated on our LODOX CAT scan. So there are several ways. And we could also look for metal objects in the body, knife tips, blades, bullets, using this technology. So we're very well equipped to find the cause of death in any situation. And in this case, whether he was run over or beaten, whoever did that leaves him out in the snow to freeze dead if he wasn't already dead. So who

is this guy? Take a listen to our cut for Boston 25. Monday, O'Keefe's family asked for privacy while they came out to look at the spot where he was discovered. It's another tragedy for a family that has already lost a lot. Boston 25 News learned O'Keefe had adopted his niece and nephew after his sister passed away from cancer in 2013, and his brother-in-law died from a heart attack shortly after. It's sad, especially where they had so much tragedy in their life already. In an internal memo, Boston Police Superintendent-in-Chief Gregory Long said this, police officer O'Keefe was highly regarded by those he worked with, his supervisors and all that knew him, both internally and within the communities of Boston that he served. Now we

know tonight that the Canton Police Department here behind us is working with state police and the Norfolk County District Attorney's Office to get to the bottom of whatever happened. And to our cut eight, Boston 25. The circumstances of how officer John O'Keefe ended up unresponsive in a snowbank still surrounded in uncertainty. Prosecutors say the cause of death was skull fractures with hypothermia as a contributing factor. The biggest question, though, remains, how did it happen? So when you have a blow to the head, regardless of how you get it, Dr. Tim Gallagher, coupled with hypothermia, how do you tell which one caused the death? Well, that's always the question, Auntie. You have to triage everything according to your

experience, your education, and your reading. If the skull is fractured in a way that whether they're frozen or not, you would have attributed that to the death, then yes, the skull is fractured in a way that whether they're frozen or not, you would have attributed that to the death, then yes, the skull fractures would have happened before the hypothermia. If the injury doesn't look fatal and they do have the hypothermia, well then, reason would stand that the hypothermia caused the death and that the blow to the head was just a contributor. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Jim Elliott, joining us, high-profile lawyer out of Warner Robins, Georgia, at butlersnow.com. Jim Elliott, the reason I am honing in on cause of death, COD, is because it could become a very, very, let me just say, sticky legal issue if someone ran over him or someone hit him in the head but he didn't die from that and then he died of hypothermia that individual could argue i was not the cause of

death they could argue that i mean there's been even a number of factors there, felony murder. Yep. You know, the intent of the perpetrator, whoever that may be. And I think there's a big difference in the allegation about being hit by a car versus hitting the head with something. Why? Well, because one's clearly intentional. The other, arguably, could be accidental. Good point. Good point, Jim Elliott. See, that's why you go to law school for so many years, because

you learn how to parse not only words but issues. He's absolutely right. Even though dead is dead, can't change that. That's right. The intent behind hitting somebody with a baseball bat in the head and leaving them in the snow to die, as opposed to

accidentally hitting them, maybe not even knowing you hit somebody, and leaving them outside, not realizing what you had done, or hitting them on purpose and leaving them there. So Jim Elliott is a high-profile lawyer because things just like that, that issue he identified. On the bar exam, Jim Elliott, and in legal exams, law exams at school, one of the main things professors look for is whether you can spot issues. If you can't spot an issue, you're no good to anybody. You have to be legally trained to spot every single issue. And Jim, as a matter of fact, in the district attorney's office, that's the first place a new lawyer would go is to indictments

where you would read police report after report after report, and you would spot every single conceivable charge. And they would be indicted on every single charge, and that would be handed to a jury, a pettit jury of 12, to determine which, if any, charges were correct. So issue spotting is a big deal. And you just made a very good point, Jim Elliott. Thanks, Nancy.

I look for my law students, too. Again, enjoy that moment. Okay, so we find this guy out in the cold. Now you've got to figure out who left him there. And as Cheryl McCollum pointed out, the first place they apparently look is at the sergeant whose home he is in front of. Investigators say the couple had been invited to an after party at a home on Fairview Road in Canton early Saturday morning after going to several bars, including Waterfall. Court documents say Reed decided to not go to the party because she was having stomach issues. Okay, to you, Jennifer Stokowski, who's Karen Reed? Karen Reed is Boston Police Officer John O'Keefe's girlfriend

of approximately two years, and they had been out bar hopping that night. During a nor'easter storm, which in Wisconsin we call a blizzard. But it is different because the winds are so much higher. And so they had been bar hopping. Then she said she had a stomachache, allegedly said that she had a stomachache. And that's why she didn't attend the party with her boyfriend, with the police officer. And said that she dropped him off and got worried later when he had not returned. Did he ever make it to the party?

I don't believe he made it to the party. Uh-oh. Okay. To Cheryl McCollum, forensics expert, founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute. Cheryl McCollum, how many times have I argued to a jury, nothing good happens after midnight? Oh, ad nauseum. Absolutely. Thank you for that.

I'm going to take that as a compliment, but go ahead. Oh, it's the truth, though. And in our business, we see it over and over and over again. The longer you stay after midnight, the more chances there are that something's going to go very very bad so she gets a stomachache and leaves drops him off he never makes it into the party according to jennifer zakowski and then he's found dead i guess where she drops him off, Jennifer? Yes. They didn't say exactly yet exactly how far from, you know, maybe the entrance to the party. But yes.

And she had allegedly told a friend when they were going to check on him, because by 430 in the morning or so, she started to get worried, apparently, that he hadn't shown home. Well, just like all of us, police become suspicious. Take a listen to our cut nine, Boston 25. Prosecutors allege she dropped off O'Keefe, made a three-point turn to reverse the car, rammed into her boyfriend, and then left him for dead. Did she have any idea that she hit him, or did she have any idea that she hit him or did she have no idea that she hit him? Boston 25 News legal analyst Peter Ellikin says details revealed during Reed's arraignment leave more questions than answers. Court documents say she became frantic as she called and texted O'Keefe

later that morning and got no response. Prosecutors say two friends returned to the scene with her. One reportedly told authorities she believed Karen was still intoxicated in the morning and said Reed told her she did not remember last night. The friend also told authorities that Reed said to her, quote, I wonder if he is dead. It's snowing. He got hit by a plow. I wonder if he's dead. It's snowing. He got hit by a plow. Wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait.

Is that Jennifer Zagowski? Is that the girlfriend, Karen Reed, talking? She thinks he got, she suggested he got hit by a plow? Yes, that is what the friend was saying. Okay, hold on right there. I mean, how likely is it, everybody jump in, Cheryl McCollum, that a snowplow is out at 1 or 2 o'clock in the morning? Nancy, they're in the middle of a nor'easter.

It's about the dumb but unbelievable amount of snow on that area. I don't think there were any plows out at all. And it also begs the question, what does she think he was doing? Was he rendered motionless in the middle of the street? Why would he stand there and let a snowplow move in 15 miles an hour hit him? What about it, Jim Elliott? Why would that be her immediate go-to? Did he get hit?

Did I hit him? I mean, I find it very hard to believe that she had no knowledge of what we believe happened. And isn't it true, Jennifer Sikowsky, she said something else to the same friend that she told the snowplow story. What did she say? Yes. So she told that friend that she did not remember the night before, which I find very interesting because how does she not remember the night before and what happened with her boyfriend if she could remember that she had a stomach ache and couldn't go to the party? What did she say following the fatality? Take a listen

to Hour Cut 12. This is Diane Cho, NBC 10. Reed's attorney says she tried to call O'Keefe a number of times, wondering where he was, and had no idea anything had happened to him. This was not some random stranger. This was my client's boyfriend, somebody with whom she was in love. Prosecutors say Reid and a couple of friends went looking for O'Keefe on Saturday morning. The defendant was too hysterical to drive and had the other friend, Ms. Carrie Roberts, follow him. While driving to the victim's house, the defendant stated to Ms. McCabe, could I have hit him? Did I hit him? Prosecutors say after seizing Reed's black Lexus SUV, authorities noticed a crack in the right rear taillight. Uh-oh. Forensic evidence right there. The right rear taillight.

Okay, to you, Jim Elliott, you've done plenty of accident reconstructions. What does that tell you? A crack in the right rear taillight of her Lexus SUV. Clearly it hit something, and I'm sure the forensic investigation will disclose exactly what and perhaps any traces of blood or human tissue or anything of that sort. What is a three-point turn in the street? What is that? Nancy, I can explain it. Jump in.

If you're parked and you're headed north, you're going to bank your car to the right, forward. You're going to back up one time, and then you're going to be able to turn your car to be able to go southbound and go forward again. So you're only backing up one time, and it's usually a good distance in front of where you're parked. So again, my concern is how did he now get in front of her if she left him out of the car for her to not see him when she backed up after moving forward a good distance. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking about a longtime police officer, John O'Keefe, who had just adopted his little niece and nephew after his sister died of cancer and her husband suddenly died of a heart attack. He's found with a horrible head injury frozen out in the snow

on his way into a cop party at a sergeant's house If the two-year girlfriend Karen Reed is responsible it wouldn't be the first time a woman plows a man down Take a listen to Hour Cut 21 from our friends at Discovery, Most Evil.

David agrees to end his affair. But on the night of July 24th, 2002, Clara learns that David and Gail have checked into a hotel. I couldn't believe it. I was in shock. I couldn't believe it. I was shocked. I started shaking and I started crying. When Clara Harris sees her husband David with his mistress, her jealousy explodes.

She attacks him in the hotel parking lot, hitting him head on with her car and running him over several times. As David lies dying on the asphalt, Clara gets out of her car and tells him that she loves him. Okay, well that made it all better. Not only did she run over him, this is where death by Mercedes came from, from her, Clara Harris. She did it. She and her husband had twin boys who were then left without a father and a mother because mommy ran him down in the parking lot of the hotel where he was snugged up with his mistress, who I think was like an office manager. Please just surprise me just one time, Jackie. One time. So not only does she run him down right there in front of God and everybody in the parking

lot of the hotel, she then puts it in reverses and she backs over his body, jumps out and says, I love you. Now die. Okay. Nobody can forget death by Mercedes. Jim Elliott, you've handled a lot of cases. Let me just say euphemistically, marital discord. What happens in people's minds? Why don't they just get a divorce? Well, I mean, just, you know, beyond explanation for people like you and me, because it's illogical that that kind of passion

turned from love to hate that quickly and to that degree. You know, I'm just curious to you, Dr. Jen Mann. And first of all, why not just get a divorce? First question. But number two, in this case, they're not even married. They don't have to worry about separating the dishes and custody and the dog and the insurance and the vanguard. They don't have to worry about any of that. They can just go, you know what? It's not working. Bye.

That's all. That's it. So why? Well, these are people with very unhealthy attachments. who is attached in that kind of pathological way, thinks that their life will cease to exist without this other person or their identity is completely hung on this other person or they feel that this pathological kind of jealousy, if I can't have them, nobody else can.

To Jennifer Sikowski, wait, did I hear Cheryl McCollum? Jump in, Cheryl. Nancy, I was just going to say, there's a lot of questions here that we have to know the answer to. One is going to be, of course, why didn't she go to the party really? Was it a stomach ache? Was it something else? Number two, how did no other partygoer getting to the party or leaving not see him? Where was his body in relation to that front door? How was he supposed to get home?

You say you're not feeling well, you live an hour away, but you drop him off at this party. How was he supposed to get home? Like, a lot of this is not making sense to me at all. You know, I'm trying to figure out, Jennifer Sikowsky, what was their problem? Do we know the source of her anger if, in fact did this thing we don't not not that i've seen what she's blaming it on essentially is that she was in a blackout state and literally doesn't remember

anything but again she happened to remember that she had a stomach ache and that tells me that she's she's covering something else up. His injuries were so extensive. I mean, he suffered not only a multiple skull fractures, but a two inch laceration to the back of his head, two black eyes, injuries to his forearm. And his clothing was covered in blood and vomit so how do you the only way you wouldn't know that you hate someone to that extent is if you were absolutely bombed from alcohol in this day and age there's just no excuse for that especially coming from a professor uh it it makes no sense and i I'm always curious. You remember dropping them off. Yeah, is that Jim Elliot? I was going to ask you, Jim Elliot, and to Cheryl McCollum, what also amazes me is that how many people hit on purpose

or run somebody down by accident, and they drive away and they leave, and they leave the person there to die. I mean, what goes through their mind over the next hours as they let the person die? And the person could have been saved. It reminds me of the first time I covered a case like this. I had plenty of hit and runs and vehicular homicides I prosecuted, but this name always sticks in my mind. Shante Mallard. Listen to Hour Cut 18.

The police department, only a matter of miles away on Miller Street, but she didn't go there. John Peter Smith Hospital, a straight shot down 287, a hospital Ms. Mallard was familiar with, but she didn't go there. Instead, you will hear that she chose

to drive home with Greg Biggs still lodged in her car, seriously wounded and bleeding, moaning when they hit a bump. And she drove home to her house at 3840 Will Barber. And she drove in the garage. And she closed the garage door. And she turned off the car. And she apologized. And he moaned. And he tried to speak.

And all she could do was cry and apologize. She told the police. I'm talking about Shantae Mallard. She hits a guy that was walking across the street. And instead of going to the police station or the hospital, which was a clear shot, wasn't a big town. She goes home, pulls into a garage, closes the door and leaves the guy impaled into her windshield and waits for him to die. I don't get it. Jim Elliott, I mean, I know that's evidence after the fact, which is admissible at trial, but it's damning.

Of course, certainly. And, you know, I think my personal opinion is I think a lot of times when people have those sort of delays, they're drunk, they're drug impaired, whatever. And I think they believe that as time lapses, at least that charge against them will go away. So, I mean, how callous. And Karen Reed, according to prosecutors, runs down her boyfriend of two years and leaves him there with a serious head injury to freeze in the snow. Jump in, Cheryl McCollum. Drunk don't make you deaf. Nancy, this would have made an undeniable sound.

So not only should she have felt she hit something, she would have absolutely heard it. You know, she's really beautiful. I mean, beautiful, long, looks kind of golden hair, perfect teeth. She is a professor. Where is she a professor, Jennifer Zagowski? Doesn't she teach finance? Yes, she does at Bentley University. So this is a woman that knows better.

It's not as if she is not well-versed in probably the law and much more. We don't know the root of her anger, Jennifer. Know nothing about it. They've been together two years. She's 41 years old. Did they break off their relationship? Did she want to get married? Had he cheated? What was the source of all her anger?

I'm not sure. I think that's going to come out. And I'm guessing police officers, investigators have a lot more information than we do. Talking to friends and looking at surveillance that may have been in the neighborhood. Well, that's a good point right there because guess what, Cheryl McCollum? Investigators appear to have footage of the actual incident on, guess what, a ring doorbell. I love ring doorbells and this is one of the reasons I love them. What do you think about that, Cheryl? That's going to be a money tree for the prosecution. There's no question about it. Here it is in real time.

You want to know what happened to this man? We can show you. You know, I'm just curious about what was going through her mind. Jim Elliott, you have represented people in the past that do a horrible thing like this. Then when an hour later, they immediately regret the deed. But under the law, even if they immediately regret the deed, one minute later, it doesn't matter. It does not change the intent at the time of the incident. That's right. And this woman is claiming voluntary drunkenness, and that's not going to be a defense to her

for any of several charges. Isn't it true, Jennifer Sikowsky, that there is some evidence he was hit with a blunt object before he was run over? I mean, I've been thinking about how a taillight in an SUV would have hit him in the head unless he was on his knees. Right, exactly. And to suffer that extensive of injuries, the multiple skull fractures, the two-inch laceration to the back of his head, two black eyes, that just doesn't sit with me right, and it does sound indicative of being hit with something prior. All I know is this.

Family, friends, and police officers from across the state all converged at St. Francis Church there in Braintree to remember slain Boston officer John O'Keefe. We want justice. Nancy Grace Crumb Story signing off. Goodbye for now. This is an iHeart Podcast.