Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - COLT GRAY, 14, MOTHER WARNS SCHOOL AFTER TEXT FROM SON: 13 SHOT, DAD ARRESTED

Episode Date: September 9, 2024

The father of the teen boy arrested in the mass shooting at a high school in Winder, Georgia, has also been arrested, held accountable for his son Colt Gray's actions. Colin Gray faces charges including four counts of involuntary manslaughter, two counts of second-degree murder, and eight counts of cruelty to children. These charges stem from allowing his son to possess a weapon. The FBI first investigated Colt Gray in May 2023 after receiving a tip about a school shooting threat via Discord, a gaming chat platform. Colin Gray told investigators he had been teaching his son about "firearms and safety" and how to hunt. He stated that if his son had made any threats, he "would be mad as hell and then all the guns would be taken away." Colt denied making threats. After the investigation, Colin Gray purchased his son an AR-15-style rifle as a gift. Joining Nancy Grace today:  Sonya Turner - Mom of two Apalachee High School students Chris Hubbard - Father of school age children. Brian Claypool -  Trial Attorney, Instagram: brian.claypool.   Dr. Jillian Peterson – Forensic Psychologist & Associate Professor of Criminology and Criminal Justice at Hamline University (St. Paul, MN); Expert on Mass Shootings and Violence Prevention; Author: “The Violence Project: How to Stop a Mass Shooting Epidemic” Chris Grollneck (Dallas, TX) Active Shooter Expert, Managing Principal for Active Shooter Prevention Project (ASPP) LLC., Author: "Qucik Series- Law Enforcement Guide to Responding to Active Shooters;" IG & TikTok: @aspp_pro, YouTube: @cgrollnek Chase McGee - Senior Newsroom Producer, Georgia Public Broadcasting   Marylynn Ryan - VP of News, Georgia Public Broadcasting  Sydney Sumner - CrimeOnline Investigative Reporter See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I Heart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Colt Gray, now known as the school shooter, just 14 years old. Bombshell evidence. Did his mother actually warn the school of an extreme emergency after she gets a chilling text from her son. 13 shot and in a bizarre twist, almost unheard of in our American jurisprudence, his father is also arrested. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Wednesday morning, Appalachee High School in Winder, Georgia. 14-year-old Colt Gray steps

out of his algebra classroom. Moments later, chaos unfolds as gunshots ring out. Every parent in America's head is spinning. How did he get in school with a gun? Why was he let out of class to wander the halls unchaperoned? And did the school know ahead of time that he was an imminent threat to the other students. This, as we learn, he had been under watch by the FBI and nothing was done by local authorities. And how does his father end up in jail? Maybe it's because he gave his troubled son an AR for Christmas assault rifle. With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we are learning now. But straight out to special guests joining us as part of, as I said, an all-star panel. I want to first speak to Sonia Turner joining us from Winder, Georgia, mother of two girls at the school.

Ms. Turner, thank you for being with us. Thank you for having me. I know this is going to run a chill down your spine, but listen. The door flew open and all I saw when I turned around for a few seconds was a figure with like a pretty large gun aiming at all the students. Ms. Turner, when you think about your girls in that school, the fact that they are alive today is a miracle. And when that guy says, yeah, we got to be quick, I guess so, because there's an active shooter in the school. What happened? So I had just dropped my oldest daughter.

She's 15, about to be 16 off. She's a sophomore. About 45 minutes, maybe less before this happened. She was late going in that day. My other daughter was already there. And then I was sitting down to rest because I was still supposed to be on bed rest from a major abdominal surgery the week before. And I got a text that said, Mom, we're on lockdown. I hear gunshots. And I think some of your producers had seen that text that the Washington Post had put together in a video. It's word by word. They left the typos even. So I started texting with her, trying to calm her, trying to reassure her. I got it. I got the kids into a group text. So I had Izzy and Abby both in that text message

together. In between that, I'm calling my husband, telling him to go, go to the kids. He was on a job site not too far away. The first text from my daughter came in at 1023, which is actually when I think they're reporting that everything started. She was on that end of the hall. She wasn't on that exact hall, but she was on that end of the building. So I'm texting with her. I'm texting my media. Other texts went to my pastor. My pastor ended up getting on the phone with us and praying while I'm texting my daughters. They're telling me they're scared. They hear gunshots. I'm having them assess their location. Can you get anywhere safer? What can you do? We're coming. They're telling me they

hear sirens. I'm just reassuring them that that's help on the way. In the meantime of texting my daughters and keeping that line of communication open, I was born and raised here in Winder. This is my home. I've lived here 45 years. Everyone I know had someone at that school that day. The sea of law enforcement, you could just hear it. It was bone chilling. And all I could do, I texted the Lord's prayer. It's not all I could do. It was the thing to do. I think the thing that stands out to me the most right now that I haven't really wrapped my head around is, well, there's a lot of things I haven't wrapped my head around. But in the prayer with my pastor, which he did not even remember, I'm sure you've thought most of these don't end with the shooter alive. In this case, my pastor prayed with me for him to stop in his tracks, whatever he was doing,

and lay that gun down. And I'm telling you, the timing is spot on. You'll never convince me that wasn't my God that day that saved those lives. And the quick response from our law enforcement who have trained so hard for this moment that they hope they'd never have to use. Sonia, when you said you are texting the Lord's prayer, what else could you do? There was nothing more you could do. It was the first thing I needed to do. It wasn't the last. It was the first. And I have somehow become a mama to the mamas. It's a long story. It started back during COVID where I'd created a group where 8,000 moms have come together and stayed together since 2020. And that has, I was inspired to do that group for moms of parents at Appalachee. And I've

started that online and I'm watching the stories feed in and I'm hearing the pain in their voices and what they need. And it's a place that we can all safely come and try to share what is working, what is not working, what our students are going through, how we're helping. I have friends who were bus drivers who were trapped sitting there waiting to evacuate that school and get those babies home while their kids were there and they couldn't do anything. I have friends that were teachers in the school immediately next door. One of those, her daughter was waiting on this child to get back to go to the bathroom. And one of her classmates just happened to get up to go let him in and looked out and saw that he had a gun and did not open that door. She saved that entire classroom

that day. Sonia, when you get the text, when you get a text, Mommy, I'm so scared. What went through your mind? I wasn't sure if I was going to see my kids at the end of the day. I kept thinking this can't be our story. This can't be our town. It doesn't happen here, which I think everybody thinks. I just knew that I kept telling them that mommy was coming, daddy was coming, we were coming. Obviously, we knew we couldn't get in that school, but they needed the reassurance that it didn't matter, we were coming.

And everybody was coming. There were parents that happened to be passing the school. I live a mile and a quarter from the school to my subdivision entrance. There were parents that happened to be passing the school. I live a mile and a quarter from the school to my subdivision entrance. There were parents that were just in the area that have kids in those schools that saw the sea of law enforcement and paramedics and firefighters. And they were freaking out because they didn't know what was going on or they had kids in all three schools of the cluster and didn't know which school to go to first. Joining us in addition to Sonia Turner, the mom of two girls at the school, is another Atlanta parent with children in the Atlanta schools. And I'm wondering straight out to Chris Hubbard is joining us. How does what Sonia Turner is saying, how does that affect all the other

parents in the area and frankly across the country? When you heard about the school shooting right here under your nose, what goes through your mind? I mean, how can you keep sending your children to school when this happens over and over and over? There were warnings, there were calls, there were reports, but yet 13 shot. Nancy, it's heart wrenching. Yeah, I was coming out of a meeting and I saw the news alerts on my phone. And then I was like, another school shooting. This is unbelievable. And then I saw I was in Georgia, and my heart dropped even further.

And Sonia, I can't imagine what you're going through and what those families are going through. Too close to home in Winder, Georgia. Too close to home here in Atlanta. And it's just too much the norm in this country. And it's hard to deal with. I mean, when I'm looking at these texts, I text my children all during the day, even though they have a no phone policy, I think, well, somehow during the day, they might check their phone and not get caught. But Sonia, when you have your child saying, mommy, I'm scared. And all you can say back is stay down, stay hidden.

I will come and get you. And then when you get there, you can't get close to the school. Yep. It's paralyzing. Again, joining us in addition to Sonia Turner and Chris Hubbard right now, Chase McGee is joining us. Senior newsroom producer, GPB. Chase, Chase McGee is joining us, senior newsroom producer, GPB. Chase, thank you for being with us. What do we know about exactly what happened that morning? But before you start, take a listen to this.

At approximately 1020 a.m. this morning, the Barrett County Sheriff's Office received alerts about reports of an active shooter and radio traffic from school resource officers concerning the same concern or having the same concern. All of our teachers are armed with a form of an I. D. Calls in T Gix and sentient alarms us and alerts the law enforcement office after buttons are pressed on an I. D. And it alerts us that there is an active situation at the school for whatever reason and that was pressed and we've had that about a week now. Chase McGee, let me understand what I'm hearing. So all the teachers are equipped with some type of device

on their person or at their desk and if they press it, that sends out the alarm? Hey, yeah, that's right, Nancy, thanks for having me. To my understanding, a lot of schools in northeast Georgia started rolling out this program. I believe these schools in Winder had these cards for about two days on their person. So that's two days training ahead of the shooting. And it essentially works like a you press it and it lets law enforcement know where in the buildings that there's this incident going on. And in early press conferences, they credit that and school resource officers on campus with a really quick response time to stop the

shooting. School resource officers on campus and one student, you heard Sonia Turner, her children at that school state that one of the children had gone out to the bathroom and was coming back in, as I understand it, and sees the shooter in the hall. That child that close to death and would not let him in the door. Listen to Chris Hosey, GBI. Two school resource officers assigned here to the school who immediately encountered the subject within just minutes of this report going out. Obviously the shooter was armed and our school resource officer engaged him and the shooter quickly realized that if he did not give up that it would end with an OIS, an officer-involved shooting.

A 14-year-old Appalachee High School student steps out of his algebra class, returning moments later. Classmates refuse to open the door after seeing the student is now armed with an assault style rifle. What do we know about what happened that morning? Yet another school shooting and now the father of the shooter, Colt Gray, has also been arrested. The grandfather calling him pure evil? The home of Colt Gray sounds chaotic, but can we just focus on the 13 people shot by Colt Gray? Straight back out to Chase McGee, senior newsroom producer, GPB. Chase, again, that morning, how did it unfold? Yeah, so what we know from before the shooting over this past weekend, we've heard reporting that Marcy Gray, the mother of Colt Gray, had received an alarming text from her son

and then gone on to contact school administrators. We know that call lasted about 10 minutes according to call records. And what was said is yet unclear, but we do know that a school administrator responded to the classroom where Colt Gray was supposed to be. There was some confusion with another student who has a very similar name apparently,

and the school administrator went to leave the classroom after not finding either student in the classroom. And that was just moments before the shooting started. To Sonia Turner joining us, the mom of two little girls at the school. Sonia, do your children know, either of them know Colt Gray? No, he's not. He's not from here. He had only enrolled, to my knowledge, two weeks. However, he had only been in the school for maybe a total of two days. I have a friend that saw him the day before in the attendance office when they were processing him as a new student.

And then that was literally his second day, maybe, in our school. He's not one of our students. So what we have heard about him being bullied and called names did not happen at this school? Absolutely not. I was contacted by, again, I've been here 45 years. I know people that taught this individual, and I refuse to say his name, as a very young child. And they begged for their parents to get him help. They begged for the system to get him help. He struggled with mental illness from as early as you can fathom of going into a school system. Listen. illness from as early as you can fathom of going into a school system. Listen, there are four individuals who are deceased from this incident, nine that have been taken to local hospitals with various injuries, those that lost their life in this tragic event. Mason Shermerhorn, age 14, who was a student here at the school.

Christian Angelo, who was 14, also a student here at the school. Richard Aspinwall, not sure of his age, but he was a teacher here at the school. And Christina Irmery, I'm sorry for my pronunciation, who is also a teacher here at the school. The victims, four dead and yet another school shooting. To Chris Hubbard, Atlanta father, with children in school right now, how often do one of your children say, you know, when you're asking them what happened today, who did you have lunch with and all that? Have you heard them say, yeah, that kid is,

there's something off about that kid. He fill in the blank or she fill in the blank. I remember one child all the way back to, I believe it was second or third grade, was drawing pictures of hanging people and shooting people. And alarm bells were going off in my head. It happens all the time. But Chris, how often do we think, oh, okay, that troubled child is going to be a school shooter. We got to kick him out. How often do parents actually think it's going to go this far? Well, Nancy, unfortunately with the way things are going, you know, that's something that comes to mind now.

But I agree with you. That's not something you ever considered to happen at your school. It's happening way too often. And we're missing the signs. We're missing the mental health, the troubled signs that are completely obvious that are making direct threats, you know, really going out of their way to cry for help in some other way. And we're not doing anything about it. We're not doing enough about it. Yeah, I hear you, Chris. And I'm weighing that out.

I'm listening to what Sonia Turner has just told us that a teacher of Colgray all the way back years ago was saying, this kid is troubled, but I got to balance his troubles, his inner demons with the dead students and the dead teachers. So how was he allowed out of class? How did that happen? Listen. Or why the school allowed this boy to come and go from the class all the time. He would go and sign up for the restroom pass, leave the class and come back sometimes and sometimes never come back. He has been wandering this school. So why was he allowed out? You know, my son has gotten in trouble at school. One time it was in the fourth grade.

I said, son, what did you do? Just assuming, you know, that something had gone horribly wrong. He went, mom, I went to the library. And I was like, John David, what's wrong with going to the library? He goes, I didn't ask first. Big trouble, big trouble because he went to the library at the school. So how is this kid wandering around with a gun? To Chase Gronick joining us out of Dallas, Texas, active shooter expert, managing principal for active shooter prevention project. Chris,

wouldn't that be written in bedrock that students don't wander freely in the hall? Yeah, that's it. That's absolutely correct. And the protocols only work if we use them. And as you said at the beginning of the show, the school was notified by the mother of some type of threat. And if the administration is going to go to the room, you would think the school resource officers would, too. And while I think the police did an excellent job here, I again will come back and say for the last 10 years, we cannot respond our way out of this. And they keep responding to these instead of preventing them. And we have to shift as a whole nation, just like we did for fires. We haven't let a child die in a school fire in 70 years. We can do this. We just want, we don't

want to. Another issue that Chris Gronick has just brought up, Chase McGee, is the specter that has reared its ugly head that the mother of this child who has, I mean, this family, the dad gives him an AR when he's got all these troubled thoughts and is expressing them. And the mother has a rap sheet as long as I 75 for Pete's sake. And neighbors say she locks the children out of the house when she's angry. Okay. That said, uh, Chase McGee, what can you tell me? Chase joining us from GPB. What can you tell me about the mom's claim? She texted the school, contacting them just before the shooting happened, before her son opens fire, shooting 13 people, students and teachers. What does she text them? Yeah, we don't know quite yet the contents of the conversation and any

requests for car records have been forwarded to the Piedmont Circuit here in Northeast Georgia where the trial is going to be held. But we do have photo proof from a call record that a 10 minute call did go out from the mother to the school system. Oh, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on, Chase. Did you just say a 10 minute call if they had acted immediately? Could anyone's life have been saved, Chase? I can't speak to that. But we do know that the call took place about 30 minutes before the shooting started.

And judging by the reports that administrator made it to the classroom. It sounds like some response took place. Now, I can't speak to the idea of a lockdown or anything other than that. As shots ring out in the halls of Georgia's Appalachee High School, students and teachers take cover as a teen shooter opens fire. A school administrator goes looking for Colt Gray after receiving a panicked call from mom Marcy Gray. Gray says someone needs to find and check on her son immediately. It's an extreme emergency. Minutes before that call, a school counselor informed Gray that Colt mentioned school shootings in their meeting that morning. Marcy Gray also received a text from her son reading, I'm sorry, Mom.

We are understanding that the discussion of school shootings happened that morning in a meeting. Sonia Turner, do you know anything about the meeting that morning where school shootings were discussed? I don't know specifics of what was discussed, but I do know they in took him the day before. I think it was. They in took him. What does that mean? Just because he was a new student. I think they met with him to sit down to determine what his needs were.

Our counseling staff is excellent with trying to make sure all of our children's needs are met. Joining us now, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, Sidney Sumner. Sidney, let me understand something, Sidney. Was there a meeting that morning with a school counselor? And in that meeting, the morning of the shooting, 13 shot, four dead. Colt Gray mentioned a school shooting? That's what I'm understanding, Nancy. Yes, there was some sort of meeting with the school counselor that morning where Colt mentioned school shootings. It's unclear exactly when Marcy Gray was informed of this. It seems like the school counselor informed Marcy Gray of this

during that 10-minute call at 9.50 a.m. Some reports say she learned this before. We're not exactly sure what led to Marcy Gray's call to the school that morning. Hold on, Sid. Sid, the school shooter, Colt Gray, contacted his mother and said something that was so disturbing. She called the school and had a 10-minute conversation with them before they went out with the warning. So a lot of time lost. You know, Brian Claypool is joining us. We're now a criminal defense attorney and specifically lived through the Mandalay mass

shooting and lived to tell the tale. Brian Claypool, I mean, what more will it take for Pete's sake? Did you hear Hubbard a few moments ago? Every time you send your child to school, you're wondering what's going to happen today when your child at the supper table says, God, that kid's really off. There's something wrong.

You wonder, is that going to be a school shooter? I mean, that morning, Claypool, this shooter is talking about school shootings. You heard Sonia Turner, who is living through this. Her children were in the school. And it goes way back to when he was in elementary school. I mean, what more has to be done, Claypool? First of all, I want to share with Sonia that this is horrific,

but in time, being a survivor of a mass shooting myself, she's going to realize and her daughter's going to realize that there's a bigger cause for her daughter surviving and her family going through this. And part of that cause is going to be what I've tried to do the last five or six years, is to make change throughout our country, to try to safeguard not only schools, but all public places that we go to. And how do we do that?

You know, Nancy, shortly after the Vegas shooting, when I thought I was going to die and I saw other people on the ground shot and dealt with, you know, remorse for not helping them. And similar to what Sonia went through too, I sent a text to my daughters. I'm a single parent. I've got two daughters now, but my teen daughter at the time, it was too much for her. So I texted her mom and I just said, you know, if I get killed, you know, you know, send my love to Alana, my daughter. But the thing is that nobody should have to go through that. And the way that we make change is not through what I was trying to get at before I got emotional was I thought that this, there, a ban on, you know, assault weapons without help the first year or two. And I've changed my thought because of what we're seeing in this shooting, too, that in nearly every school shooting and nearly every mass shooting, Nancy, there are red flags.

There are massive red flags here. And until local schools, it's not just a federal issue. Everybody's quick to blame the federal government. What are we doing to solve these? This is a local issue, too. A lot could have been done here. Well, wait, you know what, Claypool? You're right. The FBI had been watching Colt Gray. They contacted, as you are prescribing, local authorities who did an interview and nothing was done. Dr. Jillian Peterson joining me, forensic psychologist

and the executive director of the Violence Prevention Project, author of The Violence Project, How to Stop a Mass Shooting Epidemic. Okay, Dr. Jillian Peterson, lay it on me. Yeah, I mean, it's so heartbreaking and difficult to hear this story

because we've studied these school shootings and it's the same thing over and over again. It's a troubled young man who's a student of the school. He's making threats. He's posting things online. He's telling people things are going to happen. The people are around him are concerned. And still every warning sign gets missed when this happens. So, Dr. Jillian Peterson, they had a meeting with the counselor that morning and he's talking about school shootings. Sonia Turner says she knows an instructor that dealt with Colt Gray years ago. Same thing then. He's like Vesuvius waiting to erupt.

Yet nothing happened. The parents aren't going to do anything. What they did is give him an AR, an assault rifle. So that's not helpful. The only thing I believe that saved lives at all, and I think Sonia Turner's backing me up on this, is a school administrator and one of the students. Listen. A school administrator goes looking for Colt Gray after receiving a panicked call from mom Marcy Gray. Gray says someone needs to find and check on her son immediately. It's an extreme emergency. Minutes before that call, a school counselor informed Gray that Colt mentioned school shootings in their meeting that morning. Marcy Gray also received a text from her son reading,

I'm sorry, Mom. The assault rifle gifted to Gray at Christmas last year is reportedly the same gun used in the attack on Apalachee High School. Many are questioning how the 14-year-old managed to get the large gun into the school. Apalachee does not have metal detectors, but the school does not provide lockers to every student. While an AR-15 will break down into two pieces, they are still too large to conceal in a typical school backpack. So how did he get the gun into the school?

How did he transport it? How did he get out in the hall with it? Did he stash it somewhere? He was out, according to Sonia Turner, his children go to the school with a legitimate bathroom pass. So he was not wandering the halls as has been characterized to us. That's not what happened. He had a bathroom pass.

So how did he get the gun? Joining us, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now, to Mary Lynn Ryan joining us, VP at GPB. Mary Lynn, in the last hours, the father, Colt Gray's father, which is quite a departure in American jurisprudence. It has happened before, but very rarely the father has been put behind bars. Why? That is a good question, Nancy. We asked that right away because there's only been one other case in Michigan where a parent was held liable for that, for a gun used

by a student. But I talked to law enforcement at the federal level after this, and I was told that it was because the father had knowledge of his mental health and still provided him with a possessing a weapon and knew that he was in that state and those were available to him so that that and you're a lawyer a very good lawyer nancy and i know you've done many stories on this um and that i believe is the reason why they're able to charge the father with accessory pretty much to this crime so it will be a top story here in Georgia. And the gun, the gun debate rages on again as we head into this election. And it's at the top of mind today. Okay, hold on, hold on. I don't want to make this at all about politics at all. I want to save lives.

I don't care who's going to use this as some rhetoric for an election to further their own interests. As a matter of fact, you're right. You are right, Marilyn. Listen. If something like that happens or you hear something like that, report it. Yeah, it is. Tell your dad, tell the teacher. I like I told him, I promise I will never say something like that. So you haven't used Discord in a few months? No, I haven't. And you're saying you didn't say anything like that? No, the only thing I have is TikTok, but I just go around there and watch videos. Do you have weapons in the house? I do.

Are they accessible to him? They are. I mean, there's nothing loaded, but they are down. Okay. Actually, we do a lot of shooting. We do a lot of deer hunting. He shot his first deer this year. Did he?

Okay. You know, so, like, I'm pretty much much in shock to be honest with you. Well, I'm a little pissed off to be even really honest with you. If that, if that is what was said, he's pissed off. The father is pissed off. Well, this may help you understand it a little bit more. Earlier, we heard Brian Claypool talking about lots of red flags. That interview was back in May, 2023, when the Jackson County deputy sheriff went out to speak to Colt Gray's father and he's pissed. The father's pissed about what? And yes, the guns were easily accessible Sidney Sumner joining us, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, it's my understanding that it's a lot more than just accessory to the crime. That the father, Colin Gray, is facing four counts of manslaughter and two counts of second degree murder. Amid claims he gave his son an AR-15 style rifle that was then used in the massacre at Appalachia High.

Nancy, that's absolutely correct. What we know is that Colin Griff gifted Colt this assault rifle reportedly for deer hunting. It seems like they were out hunting very frequently. Colin Gray talks to the sheriff's deputies about trying to get Colt outside, trying to get him a hobby. Was this the best hobby for Colt to be in? Obviously not. So that's what we know about that. And it's obvious these text messages that are coming out between Marcy Gray, her sisters, her mother, and father, The family was very aware that Colt Gray was not doing well mentally. He had just been put into therapy a week before the shooting happened.

But you know what's interesting, Sidney Sumner, Sonia Turner has pointed out that his file about all of his difficulties and all of his demons and homicidal suicidal ideation did not travel with him. Everyone is attacking Appalachee High. Appalachee High did not know about his trouble back background. But as Sidney Sumner is telling us, we now know that law enforcement went to speak to the father. And I guess you heard what she was saying about the home. Listen. Colt Gray's home life is anything but stable. Colt's mother, Marcy Gray, has a long criminal history after falling into drug addiction.

Colin and Marcy Gray separate shortly after being evicted from a rental home. Colt stays with his father while his two younger siblings go with their mom. After cops find drugs in her car, Marcy Gray is sentenced to five years in prison, but serves only 46 days before release on parole. Months later, Gray is arrested for aggravated battery on her 73-year-old mother and barred from contact with Colin Gray outside of matters concerning their children. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining me, Sonia Turner, who is the mom of two little girls that attend Appalachia High.

Sonia, you're getting all sorts of information. What have you learned about Gray's father? I got very reliable information that he was acting very peculiar that morning at work and was communicating back and forth supposedly with his son. And I wholeheartedly feel like he may have known more than something was up that he may have known what was up. I don't know. You know, it just makes me wonder, did he not want to give up his son? Did he try to talk his son out of it? Was he trying to calm his son down at the expense of the other students? To Chris Grolnick, active shooter expert, what is the fix? What can we do? The FBI had flagged it. Local law enforcement went to go speak to his family. That did no good. The new school, Appalachian High, as Sonia Turner has pointed out, did not have access to any of

Cole Gray's history. They let a ticking time bomb walk into their school unbeknownst to them. And, you know, Nancy, and so many others, 90 percent of these shooters, according to the FBI, tell somebody they're going to do it before they do it. And they provide something called leakage, which is on social media that remains up at will until it's posted, flagged or other, and then may come down later. If we just follow their history, listen to the people around, and when somebody says they're going to do something and we start believing them, then we can reduce these incidents. As great as this response was, we've still lost the lives of four people, nine others shot, and a whole host of a community that's going to be in shambles for God knows how long. Over 25 years, the watershed moment was Columbine. Of course, Uvalde was absolutely the incorrect way to handle this. You know, Chris Hubbard, Atlanta area father

of children that he's got to send right back into school tomorrow morning. Chris Hubbard, one of the first stints I did at the Fulton County District Attorney's Office was in juvenile. And, of course, it's more of a revolving door there than it is in adult jail. But I would see the level of crime committed by juveniles and they'd walk right out the door. And I knew nothing could be done except for me trying to get treated as adults. So that in mind, Chris, what do you tell your children? Hide under your desk? I mean, what do you tell them? That's an impossible conversation, Nancy. We talk about recognizing signs. We talk about being nice to people. I know that sounds silly, maybe in this context, but, you know, a lot of these kids you hear were bullied. And again, I know this didn't happen at Appalachee High because it was only his second day, apparently, but had lived through that his entire life.

But when something like that happens, all you can do is tell your kids to look out for themselves the best they can. I wish we had more physical barriers at the schools, lockdown doors, et cetera. The resource officers, I'm a huge proponent of having sat on three school boards, two current and one in the past. School safety is something that we've talked about a lot. And I'm a huge proponent of the school resource officers. But again, that's a reaction thing. And again, we're proponent of the school resource officers. But again, that's a reaction thing. And again, we're not missing these signs, I don't believe. We're ignoring these signs of this mental health. And again, I don't know what you do. And Nancy, you've lived this in your legal career where you've had juveniles walk out the door and you

knew something was going to happen. I don't know what the legal fix is. That's certainly not my area of expertise. Well, Chris, you point out something really valuable. And to Sonia Turner, following what Chris Hubbard has just said, the reaction by the school, and I want to defend the school along with you. Now that I understand what you're saying, the school reacted and they reacted appropriately. So it's not the reaction, what Hubbard just said. It's before that is before the school has to react. How did he get the gun in there? Where did he get the gun? How did he know how to break down the gun? What kind of doors did the school have? Do they have metal detectors? Why didn't his file follow him to Appalachee high? I mean, it's like Appalachee's bringing

a knife to a gunfight. They have no idea what they're dealing with. But let me ask you this, Sonia Turner. I know as a victim of violent crime and having dealt with crime victims my whole life now, you're never the same after. How are your girls and how is this affecting them? I want to share something about one of the victims as quickly as I can. They said at our vigil last night, which was absolutely amazing. Mason, the young man that was killed, one of his favorite video games was Kingdom of Hearts. And I'd never heard of it. But what they talked about is the whole premise of that

video game was it's a story of light overcoming the darkness. And the ultimate sacrifice did that child make. But last night at that vigil, all we saw was light. But love will prevail in the situation. It's just I hate that those families lost their loved ones that day. We wait as justice unfolds. And as we put our heads on the pillow tonight, our prayers to the victims of this devastating school shooting at Appalachia High. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.