Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Convicted murder mastermind says it's not FAIR after teen lover trigger-man and accomplices gain early release from prison. Will PAMELA SMART's legal wrangling set her free? Part 2.

Episode Date: July 19, 2019

The trigger-man and accomplices who killed Pamela Smart's husband have been released from jail, but she, the mastermind, remains locked up. In part two of Nancy Grace's look at the case, the focus is on the how the lack of admission of guilt is affecting her case. Joining us today: Forensic Psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober, Medical Examiner Dr. Michelle Dupree, Judge Ashley Wilcott, and Syndicated Radio Host David Mack.   Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I drove up to the house and I went into the garage and I went up to the house and I noticed that the outside lights weren't on. And I remember thinking that that was odd because Greg usually left them on when he knew that I was going to be late. But, you know, I didn't think it was anything major. I just remember thinking it was odd. I walked up the steps, and I put the key in the door.

And when I pushed the door open I turned on the light and I saw Greg. What did you do? Well it all happened in a matter of like not even a second I don't think and I remember seeing things near him like a candlestick and a pillow and I remember I thought the first thing I thought was to go get help and I said I said Greg Greg's name and he didn't he didn't answer and I ran I ran out it all happened really fast Pam Smart is in the thick of it trying her best to get out of jail. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. But how did it all start? 18-year-old Pam Wojcic was a freshman in

college who loved to party, and she was instantly drawn to Greg Smart. She sat next to him down on the couch and started flirting with him and twirling his hair. With his rocker haircut and boyish smile, 20-year-old Greg was just Pam's type. Greg was a great guy. If somebody said, hey, let's go away for the weekend and it was Friday night, he would go. He always lived like that. Greg was also known as a ladies' man. Greg was seen, as usual, a bunch of other girls. A lot of the girls seemed to flock to him.

But soon after Greg met Pam, he began to change his ways and settle down. Over time, it slowly got more serious and more serious. Pam was very excited about her relationship with Greg. She used to write poems, and she sent me a lot of them. When Greg surprised Pam with an engagement ring in January of 1988, she accepted. And that is how it all started, at a party when she was just 18 years old. How did it all end in murder?

And what's happening right now, joining me in All- panel, to break it down and put it back together again, Dr. on Amazon, Ashley Wilcott, judge, trial lawyer and anchor at AshleyWilcott.com. Right now to CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter Dave Mack. Dave, explain to me when Pamela Smart gets home, what does she find in her home? She finds her husband of less than one year on the ground and the apartment apparently in disarray. He's on the ground with what appears to be a gunshot wound to the head. Police suddenly have three suspects in the murder. 17-year-old J.R. Latimer and his friends, 16-year-old Pete Randall and 16-year-old Billy Flynn. They're kind of a rough group of kids.

They had been involved in some minor crimes. But petty crime is one thing. Could they really have committed a murder? It doesn't take long for detectives to identify a possible link between the three boys and Greg Smart, his wife, Pam. The teenagers are students at Winnicott High School where Pamela Smart works. Two of the boys are students in her media course. They were making a video together. Pam Smart was the coordinator. The kids are the talent. Two of the high school

students are in her class. That's a connection. You're hearing our friends at Real Crime, Real Story with Erin Brockovich. So they're all kids. They're all teens. And Flynn, the 16-year-old, reportedly was more than just a student. She sat me down in a chair. And what did she say to you? She said, I think I'm in love with Bill.

And what did you say to that? I laughed. It was Bill. And what did you say to that? I laughed. It was ridiculous. It was ridiculous. Why was it ridiculous? Because she was married. She was 22. And what did she do when you left?

She just kept telling me over and over again, I'm serious. So what happened after that? About a week later, she told Bill. Did you have any part in talking to Bill about this? I told Bill Pam wanted to see him. And when you say about a week later, she told Bill, how do you know it was a week later? I'm not positive. That's when she told me that she told him about a week later. You are hearing who I believe to be the star witness in the case, Cecilia Pierce.

Now, Pam Smart, the teacher in her 20s, takes this teen girl under her wing, so to speak. But then... She said she could either divorce or kill Greg. Think she was serious? I thought that she was serious, but that she wouldn't do it or have it done. And how often were you having these conversations with the defendant at this time? At first, it was just like every few few days and then it was every day. And what kind of things would you be talking about?

What was going on so far, like what they had discussed last period, what her and Bill had discussed and what they had decided upon. Things like to wear their hair tied back and to wear dark clothes and to make it look like a burglary. Wow, that's getting very, very involved. An intricate planning going so far as to what they would wear, what to do with their hair, when the incident, the murder would take place. To Dave Mack, CrimeOnline.com investigative

reporter. What really links Pamela Smart to her husband Greg's murder? Well, actually, the police with Cecilia Pierce, they actually wired her up. She agreed to help the police because she just couldn't stand this anymore. And actually, Pam Smart gave her own incriminating statement. They picked it up on the wire where she actually said, if you tell the police what you know, we're all going to be locked in the slammer. Tell me, Dave Mack, what happens at trial with all the other co-conspirators, the boyfriend, his friends. prosecution determined early on. If not for Pam Smart orchestrating all of this, it would not have happened. She's even admitted as much that it was her relationship with Billy that cost Greg his life. It's just a matter of what the police have indicated. They built their case around is that she was the instigator of everything. And at trial, Billy Flynn was an incredibly credible

witness. He cried on the stand. And I'll never forget actually seeing him when the prosecutor said, what was all that? What did you say? And he said, right before I shot him, I pointed the gun at his head and I said, God, please forgive me. And it pulled the trigger. So Billy Flynn admits to what happened. Take a listen. The man who spent decades in prison for his role in the sex and murder scandal that rocked the New Hampshire community is now a free man. All of this unfolding in the overnight hours.

Billy Flynn was just 16 years old when he and a friend killed his high school teacher's husband. He was granted parole in March. A rather bizarre scene overnight at the prison where Flynn spent the last 25 years of his life. A RATHER BIZARRE SCENE OVERNIGHT AT THE PRISON WHERE FLYNN SPENT THE LAST 25 YEARS OF HIS LIFE. WHAT YOU HEARD WAS OTHER INMATES CHEERING AS THE CONVICTED KILLER LEFT BY THE BACK DOOR. AT HIS PAROLE HEARING, FLYNN APOLOGIZED TO THE FAMILY OF GREG SMART. HE SAYS HE HOPES TO FIND A JOB AFTER EARNING HIS DEGREE WHILE IN PRISON, BUT HE KNOWS THAT WILL BE DIFFICULT. PAM SMART WAS CONVICTED OF

HELPING FLYNN AND ANOTHER TEENAGER PLAN THE KILLING OF HER HUSBAND IN 1990. SHE IS SERVING LIFE IN PRISON WITHOUT THE CHANCE OF PAROLE. PATRICK RANDALL, THE OTHER TEEN WHO PARTICIPATED IN THE KILLING, IS ALSO SCHEDULED FOR RELEASE

TODAY. crime stories with nancy grace pam smart is trying her best to get out of jail i'm'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Let me ask you this. Dave Mack, Billy Finn leaves prison. He's the trigger person. He admitted to what he did. What did the co-conspirator do? What was his part? What did the others do? Not Pam Smart. Patrick Randall was sentenced to the same thing as Billy Flynn. He was right there inside the home with Billy Flynn when it took place, when the shooting occurred. And he got the same type of treatment that Billy Flynn got. Now, they did have a co-conspirator who was the getaway driver. His name was Vance Latimer. He was sentenced to life in prison as

an accomplice, and he was let out of jail several years agoimer. He was sentenced to life in prison as an accomplice, and he was let out of jail several years ago. He wasn't sentenced to the same thing. They did have one other co-conspirator. That was Raymond Fowler. He actually just waited in the car. He was there with them. Again, two boys went inside, Billy and Patrick. Vance and Raymond stayed in the car, but they were all part of this conspiracy. Raymond Fowler was charged with conspiracy and attempted burglary, and he was sentenced to prison as well. But he was also released back many years ago. So while we hear the boyfriend, as we call him,

admitting that he said, God forgive me, and then pulls the trigger, he admits that. What about Pam Smart Dave Mack has she ever admitted she was part of the conspiracy to kill her husband no you know the only thing she's even come close to admitting in terms of guilt is she

actually and this is a real problem she's never admitted her role she's never admitted what they proved in court beyond a shadow of a doubt her only comment and this is what they proved in court beyond a shadow of a doubt. Her only comment, and this is what she says, and this is a direct quote, although I never wanted nor asked Mr. Flynn to murder Greg, I will forever carry the blame and guilt. And that's the one statement from her that has a, you know, where she claims that, yeah, she's guilty, but not for asking him to do it.

She's guilty because she had a relationship with Billy Flynn. As a matter of fact, listen to Pam Smart. When the media counts, and day after day after day, it was just this onslaught of negativity and just untruths about me and tearing me apart. I think that almost as a defense mechanism, I shut down. And I believe part of that is because I come from a family where we learn to deal with whatever problems happen by just remaining strong and standing strong and not being like weak and willow, so to speak, over whatever happens. I'm more of a private person when I deal with my own pain and my own emotions.

So for me to be only 22 years old, it tends to be 24 at the time, and have what I thought was my whole future with him just completely obliterated and having to deal at such a young age with funeral and weights and then the fact that Bill Finn was arrested and I had a relationship with him and then finding out that it looked like he did it or his friends did it and then I was arrested it was just like one thing after another after another and I think part of my being able to survive was me being able to just completely shut down. Okay, so it's all about her. To Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist joining us, even now, it's still all about how this affected her life, how her future was, quote, obliterated.

Not once do you hear her talk about the victim, Greg. Of course, Nancy, because she's a malignant narcissist. All she cares about is herself, her fame, her recognition. That's what it was about all the time, and that's what it's about now. Okay, it's not just that. Listen to this. Pam Smart in her own words. You could not be safe from anything but lifting. Not just that. Listen to this. Pam Smart in her own words. it and could hear pieces of it and I was reading their conversation flat on the page, I was

noticing that there were things that were attributed to me that it was actually her talking. There were things that were attributed to her and it was actually me talking because our voices sounded similar only because they were so rivaled. And also what happened too is that when you have a conversation, even like the one I'm having with you right now, you're interjecting in my conversation saying, right, yes, uh-huh. That's what we do when we have conversations. Right. But on the paper, it's like she's saying, oh, so you wanted Greg dead.

And then I say, yeah. But that's not how the conversation was going. It wasn't a response to necessarily whatever you just said. It was just a natural course of listening to a person and saying, yeah, okay. I don't think I would even say, yeah, okay, if someone mentioned I want my husband dead, which, of course, I don't, Not until I renew that life insurance policy. But aside from that, what a bunch of BS. All this time later, she's still attacking the transcript. And so you know what that means. That means that that is what convicted her. That's what she's

angry about. To Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, all this that's what she's angry about to Dr. Daniel Bober forensic psychiatrist all this time later she's still talking about the transcripts of the taped conversation she was having with Cecilia Pierce about how it was wrong does she not remember the jury heard it for themselves they were reading it not only that, Cecilia Pierce testified and said what they talked about and what happened. Then the tapes came into evidence. So what does that mean, Dr. Bober? She's still festering over the tapes, and she's still not admitting that she orchestrated her husband's murder. Well, I think, you know, I think she feels obviously betrayed. But, you know, it's sort of one of those whataboutisms like, well, yeah, you're saying I did this,

but what about this? This is what this person did to me. So, again, it's all about her. And that's the focus. All about her. Okay, let me understand. To Dave Mack, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, Dave, what's happening now? Because you've told me that Billy Flynn, the boyfriend, sugar man, he's out.

The others, they're all out except for her. She has routinely requested many different things over the years. But her final and last request that she could actually make, and this is what's being discussed now, is the fact that she wants her sentence to be shortened. That's what they did in the case of Billy and Patrick. They actually were able to get their sentence changed by a couple of years so they could actually be released on bail, on parole rather.

In the case of Smart, she wants the same type of compassionate release, if you want to call it that. They're asking for a reduction in her sentence so that she can actually be eligible for parole, which she is not right now. But the others to Ashley Wilcott, judge and trial lawyer, have all confessed. They said their part. So how do you give parole to someone that never acknowledges what they did? I think that's the big holdup for her. Oh, I agree with you because they don't, right? One of the questions that's asked at every parole hearing is, do you admit, acknowledge, take responsibility for the crime you've been convicted of? And if the answer's no, well, guess what you're not going to get is parole. And she continues to claim she was

not involved. I mean, hasn't anybody seen Ocean's Eleven? I mean, that's the first thing George Clooney does. He sits down in the parole hearing and lies through his teeth about how he admits guilt and he's never going to do it again. He's changed his ways. Then he gets out and he robs the casino. Okay. So that's how the pardon and parole board works. You have to acknowledge what happened before you can, it's kind of like a catharsis and start over, or at least that's what they expect before they give you parole. Bam. Do you agree or disagree, Ashley? I agree. That's exactly right. And that is universal. That is true in every state in the nation. That is not unique. That is how it Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. So the trigger man, Flynn, just 16 at the time of the murder,

tells police, along with the others, that it was all Smart's idea. She orchestrated the entire plot. She left the entrance to her apartment open for them to surprise her husband. They held a knife to his face, shot him, and then they tried to stage a burglary. Smart herself says she started a sex affair with the boy in revenge because her husband had a one-night stand. That's neither here nor there. But right now, Pam Smart wants out of jail. She's been behind bars for 30 years for conspiring to kill her husband, Greg. So, I don't understand.

What is the new trend, the new trend of second looks? What is that, Dave Mack? It's the opportunity for somebody who's been convicted of a crime to seek a hearing, to basically reiterate what this person wasn't really involved in. In her case, she didn't pull the trigger. She wasn't at the scene, and she was an involved bystander, is what they're trying to argue. And it's using that. She refers to it as ancillary. Yeah, ancillary to the crime, meaning, you know, like a getaway driver can have their, if they've been convicted of a murder, you know, they can actually appeal and get a hearing to have their sentence reduced because they didn't actually pull the trigger. They were merely driving the car.

And that was actually the argument used by Pam Smart in the last several years. That's what she's been pushing for, because she was sentenced to life. But if they can get a reduction in sentence, that would make her eligible for parole. That's exactly what Barry Flynn did, by the way. He got that reduction at a hearing and he was out on parole. And he admitted he did it and expressed remorse. To Ashley Wilcott, what is the second look trend? It is like you already pointed out, Nancy, it does exist in a couple of states, it's legislation. And what it is, and there is the Second Look Amendment Act of 2019. And in that,

it establishes what's called a board of indeterminate sentence and parole. And it's to determine including things like individuals who committed an offense before age 25 in the existing sentence modification process. So what does that mean in plain English? It means that they would give a second look to those individuals who committed offense before age 25. And it may change some of the rules we've been talking about. Let me ask you this. After all these years, Dr. Daniel Bober, the victim's family lives through the trial, lives through the crime, all the pain after that. How do you think they're feeling about second looks? Well, I mean, listen, I mean, it's a very emotionally charged situation, Nancy, but this sort of second look business kind of, I think, is in the same vein of Roper v. Simmons,

the case about not executing people under 18 and recognizing that certain people, because of their age, may not have the same degree of culpability as people who are older. So I understand where it's coming from. But if you're the family of a victim, you're not going to be very understanding of that argument. Joseph Scott Morgan, to yet pardon a parole, you have to demonstrate change to behavior. What has her history been like behind bars? It's not been good, Nancy. She's been in multiple altercations, multiple violations. You know, she's not even in New Hampshire any longer. In the women's state prison there, they had to transfer her to the New York state facility

because she had snitched out two women in the prison that were involved in a relationship, and she got beaten up pretty badly as a result of that. She's got a history of being rather non-compliant, non-cooperative with the jail staff. Why do you think that is? Is it something to do with authority? You know, I don't know, Nancy, but it would seem that she acts, particularly snitching out these two women that are just engaged in a relationship. They're in prison. It would seem that she feels like she knows better than everybody else. She just cannot abide by the rules.

And I think that this is a thread that might run through this woman's life. And it wasn't just about love. She refutes the boyfriend's claims, made a trial. that might run through this woman's life. And it wasn't just about love. She refutes the boyfriend's claims, made a trial. But they all say she paid him and his friends $500 each to kill her husband and make it look like a burglary, including her leaving the door unlocked so they could get in. What about that, Dave Mack? You hardly ever hear about the fact that she allegedly paid them to commit murder.

If I'm not mistaken, Nancy, she volunteered to pay them that out of the $140,000 in insurance money she was going to get from the death of Greg Smart. So you had that money motive into his murder as well. You know, in my mind, to you, Ashley Wilcott, that adds a whole nother layer to this, that she actually offered to pay money out of her dead husband's life insurance proceeds. That's pretty cold blood. Very cold blood. And all of these things together add up to prove in my mind, and a jury found this beyond a reasonable doubt, that, look, there was a motive that she wanted to kill him. She'd only been married a year. She wanted the money.

She had the means by hiring juveniles. Don't forget that. And hiring one of them to actually pull the trigger. This evidence, you know, sometimes you hear about cases in the news and the evidence sounds like, wow, circumstantial, a jury convicted. But maybe this isn't the right or enough evidence. This is not one of those cases in my mind. I think with the amount of evidence they have against her, the motive of the money dying of old age behind bars while her husband was murdered in his early 20s. As a matter of fact, he was restrained by Pete Randall while Billy Flynn, her lover, shot him in the head.

Now, they were both freed at the same time. The accomplices, Vance Latimer Jr. and Raymond Fowler, also walked from jail early. But this has somehow turned into some sort of a feminist argument, claiming in some way that the guys got out, but she, the woman, is still still behind bars i don't see it that way at all i see it as she is the only one refusing to admit guilt and show any remorse over her part in her husband's murder that has been the point of contention throughout all the appeals so have you ever seen anybody like that joe Scott, in all the cases you've handled and processed? For someone, I compare it to Scott Peterson, he would rather go down for a life

without parole than take a plea and admit he did it. Yeah, at the end, Nancy, I think that it all comes down to this personality and their perception of reality. And you know, what's really sad about this is Greg Smart. He's a person that kind of gets diminished in all of this, that like so many of these cases, they're just, they're collateral damage in these people's mind where they're just thrown away like a piece of garbage and they don't care. The same with Lacey and that baby. It's the same thing over and over and over again. Dr. Bober speaks right to the heart of it in this particular case where they're talking about, you know, this narcissistic personality disorder that these people have. And they are just so bitten by this thing that they cannot see the forest for the trees.

As a matter of fact, in a recent and very defiant interview, she says, quote, I want the world to know that my incarceration is unjust. My trial was unfair and I am being held in prison for a crime I did not commit. OK, you know what? She's staying behind bars. Anybody have a thought on that? Bober, do you really believe they're going to let her out if she's still not admitting guilt? It's so funny, Nancy. The language is it's like this mythic struggle, and she's been unjustly convicted. You know, she's almost making it like a reality TV show right from her jail cell,

and I don't think she has any chance of getting out. I agree. You know what? Admit responsibility and move on. That ain't happening, and it's all because Pam Smart still refuses to admit what happened the night her husband was murdered. Dave Mack, the New Hampshire Executive Council. It is a state council made up of five members. The vote was 4-0 because one person abstained from voting. Let me understand how this works because not every state has it. There, you have to, new hampshire you have to go to this council they decide whether you get a second chance hearing and even with 1 000 pages

of documents not once did she admit guilt and that was the big problem nancy this was her last chance to get this state council to give her that second look hearing and in that where everything's on the line you know you use the danny ocean reference where he sits there smiles and tells them exactly what they want to hear so we can get out and go rob a casino yeah i totally believed him and i even knew what was going to happen in this case she could not do it she is so stuck on herself she couldn't bring herself to do the one thing that would have guaranteed her that hearing. If she says, you know what, I was involved with this kid and I did it. I shouldn't have done it. I feel horrible about it. Greg should be alive. But, you know,

I concocted this whole thing. If she did that, she would have got the hearing and she would have got out. And, you know, another thing, Dave Mack, Andrew Valensky, the one that abstained, stated that this vote four to zero ensured she would never get a hearing. But, you know, Ashley Wilcott, under our system, never say never. Charles Manson died of old age, okay, and ailments behind bars. At the time of his trial, everybody thought he would get the death penalty. You never know what's going to happen. I would predict that Pam Smart will get another hearing of some sort.

I don't know whether it will be granted or not, but I think she will get another hearing. And I think it's important for everyone in the listeners to remember, Nancy, that laws change. New laws come on the books for different reasons. And there could be a new law at any point in time in New Hampshire that is one under which she can seek recourse and could be released. So I absolutely agree with you, especially in our criminal justice system. Never say never. We just don't know. In a recent jailhouse interview, Pam Smart calls the rejection of her parole hearing completely unfair. She believes it's unfair that she stays behind bars while the trigger man has been set free.

Now catch this. This is some interesting wording. She says, quote, it took me years of working on myself and therapy, growth and maturity to accept fault. And her fault is the only fault that she accepts is that as the media coordinator at a high school in Hampton, New Hampshire, she started a sex relationship with Billy Flynn, a student. That's it. She in no way accepts fault. To Dr. Daniel Bober, she would have to admit she did this

and accept fault to hope for parole. Why won't she do it? Well, I think she has to maintain her innocence all the way, and I think her ego is maintain her innocence all the way. And I think her ego is so huge that I don't think it will allow her to admit that she's responsible for the crime, even though all the evidence points that way. And she was convicted. Well, right now, Pam Smart sits behind bars refusing to acknowledge her part in a brutal murder. But I guarantee you, we ain't seen the last of her yet. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

I've been a felony prosecutor in inner city Atlanta for over a decade. I have been a journalist over 20 years. I've handled and covered literally thousands of cases. Of all of those cases, the injustice of some just stick with me. Wrongful accusations. I don't care what the f*** they said. Sentences that don't fit the crime. Victims' cries for help ignored.

Many cases may have been resolved in courts, but not resolved in my mind. Hi, guys. Nancy Grace here. And before I say another word about our upcoming series, Injustice with Nancy Grace on Oxygen, listen to this. With every minute that passes, you're losing the chance of finding the person, much less alive. They're out there all night, all Lake Seminole, all law enforcement. They're thinking, how could he survive through

the night? Not a trace. Everything runs through your head. Everything. Could he have been the victim of a burglary? I mean, we didn't really know what had happened to Mike. So if he wasn't in the lake, where could he be? Oh, that horrible, horrible feeling trying to figure out what happened. You're hearing Mike's friend, Clay Ketchum, a young dad, a husband, a loving husband, I might add, says he's going out duck hunting and he never comes home. I've been to Lake Seminole many, many times. Dark, dark waters. If you look out on it, it's very eerie looking. Even in the daytime, when you drive by, you look out and it's vast. You can't even see the other side to it at some points. And the water looks black, even in the daytime. And what makes it so eerie looking to me, stumps, dark stumps jutting out of the water. And they're sharp.

They're sharp on the edges like spikes. And they're throughout Lake Seminole. I don't know how anybody boats on it or fishes on it or hunts on it with all those stumps. And what's under the water is scarier. There are gators there, for real, gators. So how this is a sportsman's paradise, I really don't know. But I do know that this young dad, Mike Williams, goes out duck hunting. He loved hunting. Early, early on a morning he promises to come back because very important it's his anniversary he and his wife already have one baby girl named ansley love love love ansley they want to add to their family and that evening after he gets back from duck hunting and she does

what she has to do that day they're heading for an anniversary celebration at a bed and breakfast and they're going to start on a baby. Okay. I can't really think of a happier time. So I'm circling back to what Mike's friend Clay Ketchum said. They have no idea. Every theory running through family's head, his wife's head, what could have happened to him? Had there been some attack? Had there been a burglary of some sort they didn't know about? They're trying to figure out because they don't find his body. They can't find any evidence of a struggle, nothing. It's like he disappears off the face of the earth.

Days, weeks, months go by by and suddenly the case goes cold. The wife is struggling financially to support the house and the daughter all on her own, keep it all going, all the balls in the air, and they say the case goes cold. Cold cases are tough because you continually have your regular workload and then you've got this case over here that you continue to look at but you you know it's a cold case so there's times when there's nothing going on it's just sitting there and you're waiting for it to flare you're hearing our friend telly sparkman uh investigator of the state's attorney's office there in leon county florida and it's not that the cops or the investigators don't want to solve

the case. They want to. I've been in the same boat they're in. You know, you get 100 new cases a week, brand new felonies to investigate, and you work to solve them. You work to take them to trial to investigate them. Then there are the ones that stump you. You don't want to ignore them. You don't want them to go cold, but they're just not fitting together. They started re-questioning everyone, nailing down alibis yet again, trying to get a better timeline of what happened that early, early morning, December 16, when Mike Williams seemingly vanished off the face of the earth. They went to everybody. They went to friends. They went to bosses. They spoke to Denise. They did it all. And they did it over and over and over again. And still nothing until evidence seemingly resurfaces that offers a crack in the case. But was it?

This is a case that needs a spotlight. This case stands for so much. The injustice heaped on Mike Williams and his family. I can't get it out of my mind. Join us July 26th, 5 Central, Injustice with Nancy Grace on Oxygen, the true network for crime. Nancy Grace, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.