Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Cop sues Netflix over 'Making a Murderer' series; Steven Avery still holds out hope for freedom

Episode Date: January 4, 2019

"Making a Murderer" subject Steven Avery's appeal to get his murder conviction overturned continues, although a court rejected his request to get new DNA testing on bone fragments used as evidence against him. Nancy Grace takes a new look at the case with retired Appleton Post Crescent reporter John Lee, North Carolina Family & Divorce Lawyer Kathleen Murphy, forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan -- author of "Blood Beneath My Feet," forensic psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober, and CrimeOnline reporter Leigh Egan. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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We have Stephen Avery in custody though. Making a Murderer tells the story of Stephen Avery. He's the Wisconsin man who served 18 years in prison for rape before being exonerated in 2003. We, the jury, find the defendant guilty of... Only to find himself in prison again on a murder conviction in 2007. I don't know what to do, how to handle it. Many viewers concluded Avery was framed by authorities who lied and planted evidence.

Stephen Avery is right where he needs to be in prison. I think he was innocent, is innocent. Okay, I'm not quite sure why people believe Stephen Avery is innocent other than watching a Netflix special and actually believing it. In the last hours, bombshell documents filed insisting Avery is innocent. Will he get a new trial? But this is what I know. Stephen Avery's own family and friends, own blood relatives and friends, because I questioned them myself, saw him, the night photographer, Teresa Hallback, was murdered and her remains burned in Stephen Avery's backyard in his fire pit where he worked at his auto salvage place they saw his own blood relatives and friends saw him stirring the fire into the night the night that Teresa Hallback was murdered and police find her teeth and the studs of her Daisy Fuentes blue jeans she was wearing the last time she was seen alive in his fire pit.

It's not police saying he was out there stirring up her bones until they burned away. It wasn't an investigator or somebody want to frame him. It was his blood relatives and friends that saw him stirring her remains in his fire pit in the backyard. Not only that, he lied right to my face about that night. Why lie about it? If he's telling the truth, listen to what he told me on HLN. Stephen, I understand that Teresa came to your auto salvage lot to take photos for the auto trader, correct? Yes, she did. She came down by me. Okay, and Stephen, it's my understanding that also you state that you saw her car leave. Yes, I did.

About what time? She was there between 2 and 2.30. 2.30 in the afternoon okay steven how is it that her car could get all the way back in this pit area where there is uh well i believe we're showing it right now i mean wouldn't she have to pass back by the office again well on the on the outskirts of the office otherwise back by me or back by Redon's pit in the corner is all open. It's all open. Yeah, so anybody can drive in there.

Mr. Avery, did you see anyone else come in, anyone unusual that didn't belong there? Well, Thursday night, me and my brother had to go to Menards to pick up some wood with the flatbed. And I seen taillights back by me. It wasn't supposed to be. Yeah. We turned around and we went back there, truck parked on the side. And I took the flashlight out of the flatbed. Okay.

And I looked around by me and behind me, but I didn't see none. He told me to my face, Teresa was there at his auto salvage pit the day she goes missing around 2 o'clock. He concealed his identity with Star 67 to call her twice to get her to come over. And then called her after he killed her, letting his identity show up on the phone records going, hey, you never showed up. What happened? But then fast forward, he tells me she came. So what's the cover up about? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. With me right now, in addition to Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, forensic expert, Joe Scott Morgan, North Carolina family and divorce lawyer Kathleen Murphy.

With me now is retired reporter from the Appleton Post-Crescent and the Gannett Wisconsin newspapers. John Lee. John, I am still, you know, flummoxed that people actually believe Stephen Avery did not kill 27-year-old Teresa Hallback. Hallback had gone to his auto salvage business before and she said he came to the door dressed in nothing but a towel and made passes at her and totally creeped her out. In fact the day she went back it's for like a penny pincher where you go take a picture of the vehicle and you sell it it's like a newspaper penny pincher that's you know you find them in the front of grocery stores in those racks. She said she did not want to go back because he creeped her out.

But she needed the job. So she went back. This is after he had come to the door practically naked and made passes at her. And she said she was going to go in, get the picture and get out as fast as she could. Not only that, the fact that her teeth and the studs off of her blue jeans were found in his fire pit that he had been stirring all night long, her car parked at the edge of his salvage lot, covered up with limbs and other pieces of cars. His DNA, his DNA inside her car.

And I believe it was sweat DNA. I could just see him hunched over the steering wheel after he killed her trying to hide her car and getting sweat DNA in the car. Also, we know that he would star 67, his number, block his number, and call her repeatedly before she got there, asking, when are you going to be here? Calling over and over. And then after she had gone30, he called her after that saying, where are you? Why haven't you shown up? Clearly, that's a lie.

Why would he call her the same day after he tells me she's already left and leave messages saying, hey, where are you? Aren't you going to show up? What about that? You know, it's getting to the point, and you can see it in other areas, where people believe what they want to believe. They don't look at facts. They don't look at a trial transcript. They don't look at the 20 months of court hearings we had leading up to trials.

They believe what I call the Avery PR firm that made this documentary. They believe stuff that Kathleen Zeller, Avery's current attorney, is throwing out. And basically, she's just throwing a lot of stuff on the wall and seeing what sticks. I can't read a thousand page filing from her because I read one or two sentences and I've got 10 questions and 10, 10 ways to, uh, reject that. Um, if people look at a few of the examples in the book that a prosecutor, Ken Kratz wrote, And now if they look at some of the facts mentioned on the editing and comparing trial transcripts to the mockumentary in the civil suit that Andy Colburn filed this week, it just shows the creative editing and

propaganda that's in Making a Murder. But you just can't argue with people about it when they don't have an open mind and they won't look at facts. I don't know what you can do. Well, as a matter of fact, I want to follow up on what you just said. John Lee, joining me, retired from Gannett, Wisconsin newspapers, a retired Wisconsin detective has just sued Netflix over in there, Stephen Avery making a murder, portraying him, the detective, as a corrupt police officer who planted evidence to frame an innocent man. Now, remember, when you sue somebody for defamation, be oral or written, that's libel or slander, you yourself can take the stand. You can call them to the stand if you believe that they have defamed you.

To John Lee, a reporter who covered this at the time, John Lee, what is he, the former Manitowoc County Sheriff's Detective, Andy Colburn, claiming? He's claiming that he was liable, his reputation was ruined because of the lies and the inaccurate portrayal of him in Making a Murderer. Here's a guy when, before Making a Murderer came out, Googled his own name and had two entries come up. The last time he

Googled it before the lawsuit was filed, something like 1.8 million references to him came up. I'm just going to revisit one thing. When you're in a bedroom and you cut her throat, previously you said that

you thought she was alive. Is that still your thought on that? Yeah. And why was that? Cause she was breathing a little bit. She was like trying to, not trying to breathe as hard as she could. And screaming, screaming a lot. She was screaming a lot or wasn't? She was. When you cut her throat was she screaming a lot? She was screaming a lot or wasn't? She was. When you cut her throat was she screaming? Uh-uh. Oh. When you cut her throat?

Because when you're screaming a lot, you're like, your breathing goes up or something. Well explain that a little bit. You said she was screaming a lot. When was she screaming a lot? Like, while you were doing it, after you did it, before you did it? Before. When you cut her throat, what was she doing, if anything? Like, screaming for help and crying.

I want to get that straight. She was screaming for help and crying when you cut her throat? Yeah. When did Steven choke her or strangle her? Like a little bit after that. Well, let's just go back a little bit, okay? Tell us what exactly happened to her and what order it happened in. You said there were basically three things prior to you guys shooting her. Explain those in the order that it happened. Starting with when we those in the order that happened starting when we got in the room yeah what you guys did to her it's sex with Sarah okay then he

stabbed her and who stabbed her he did who's he? Stephen. Okay. And then what? And I cut her throat. Okay. And he choked her and I cut off her hair. Okay. So he choked her after you cut her throat. You know, I was just sitting here listening to Brendan Dassey, that's Stephen Avery's nephew, describe what was done to 27-year-old photographer Teresa Hallback. And I had the same reaction I often did in court as I listened to or read murder confessions. And I found myself physically turned away from this microphone. I'm sitting in a swivel chair, turned away with my hand over my eyes because I just could hardly stand to hear it. But it's true. And I remember sitting in court where I couldn't turn away or put my hands over my eyes. I had to sit there and stoically look forward or look at the jury as this was coming into evidence. And I got to ask you, Kathleen Murphy, you probably tried as many cases as I have or investigated as many during your practice. When you hear a statement like that, as I say, rich in detail.

That was true. Nobody was putting those words in Brendan Dassey's mouth. That is what happened. He's too simple-minded to make up or fabricate a story of that nature and going through the timeline the way he did. This girl was lured to Stephen Avery's home. She was brutally raped by, chained to a bed, brutally raped by two men, her hair chopped off with a knife. She was stabbed as she screamed for help. Her throat was slashed. She was strangled and ultimately shot with a gun by Stephen Avery. The bullet with her brain matter, her DNA on it, was found in Stephen Avery's garage. And to believe that the police framed Avery, you would have to believe that they killed Teresa Hallback. Let's follow through the defense claim that he was framed. When people come up with these claims, I say, okay, let's go with it.

Let's explore it. Let's follow it through. So you would have to believe police kidnapped and murdered Teresa Hallback, shot her in the head, got the bullet fragment, the fragment, hid it in his garage, got his sweat DNA, placed it, dropped it, not smeared it, dropped in her car. Okay. Dropped. That's very important. A blood drop can be, blood evidence can be a drop. It can be blowback. It can be spatter from a gunshot wound. It can be a transfer where somebody's sweater is bloody and they lean up against the door and you see a transfer mark. It can be a footprint, a bloody fingerprint. It can be a transfer where somebody's sweater is bloody and they lean up against the door and you see a transfer mark. It can be a footprint, a bloody fingerprint. It can be a smear. It can be where you clean it up on the floor. It's very important that the DNA in this case was not smeared or placed or rubbed in in any way. His Stephen Avery DNA was in her car. Her car, I guess the police, their theory is

he had the car on his lot and then had put her body in a burn pit and had him, according to his relatives, stir her remains all night long until they disintegrated. If you follow through their theory, that's what you must believe. What do you make of Brendan Dassey's confession? Nancy, despite Brendan Dassey's confession, that being put aside, your analysis just now and the way that you presented it with the statement that the police would have had to have killed this woman is brilliant. And it needs to be replayed for the American public. Because last night, my husband asked me, because he and his firefighter buddies are watching Making a Murderer 2,

do you think Stephen Avery did it? And I just wrote back an icon of a crying, happy, like, duh face. I wish I could have said it exactly like you said it. And I'm going to make him listen to your analysis because it's brilliant and it says it all. I'm just so hurt about it, Kathleen. I'm so hurt. And I'll tell you why I'm hurt. To Dr. Daniel Bober, we

need to shrink pronto. And you're a forensic psychiatrist, which means you went to medical school, you're a medical doctor, and then you pursued another expertise in psychiatry. Dr. Bober, these cases are personal to me, I guess, because I'm a tangential crime victim of murder. You know, my fiance was murdered before our wedding. When I hear this, okay, everybody says Brenda Dassey had such a low IQ, actually had a normal to low IQ and had gone through school and was passing school, blah, blah. But let's just take him out of the scenario. I'm not arguing about Dassey. I'm arguing about Avery.

When you hear this statement by Dassey, you know he couldn't make that up. It was too detailed. It was too no pausing, no thinking about, wow, what can I say? He admitted what he did and what Stephen Avery did. And in one of these interviews, his mom was sitting in the next room. She allowed the interview to take place with detectives. And when people claim Avery is not guilty, it's just such an affront to crime victims, Dr. Bober. Just such an affront to Hallback's family after what they've been through. Yes, Nancy, I can totally agree with you. It really

offends my sensibilities. I don't think he's making it up, but I think the whole thing is a sham and this Netflix show is absolute nonsense. So I totally agree with you. Hi, Nancy Grace here. Have you ever Googled yourself, your neighbors, somebody at work, a crush? 57% of Americans admit to keeping an eye on their own online reputation. 46% admit to using the Internet to look up somebody from their past. But Google and Facebook, the tip of the iceberg when it comes to finding personal information. There's an innovative new website called Truthfinder. It's now revealing the full scoop on millions of Americans.

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He said that she was taking some pictures of a van. Stephen Avery and his nephew, Brendan Dassey, were convicted of Halbach's murder in 2007. But Avery has been wrongly convicted in the past of sexually assaulting a different woman in 1985. Colburn's lawsuit says the makers of the documentary spliced reaction shots of Colburn appearing nervous and apprehensive during trial. I believe that... And heavily edited Colburn's testimony to making viewers think he planted evidence inside Halbach's car and in Avery's bedroom. The complaint also says making a murderer failed to release significant facts in the trial, like Avery's DNA being located on Hallbox hood latch, Avery's differing statements, and a bullet with Hallbox DNA linked to a firearm hung on Avery's wall. You are hearing WBAY reporter Sharon Magenda reporting on a blockbuster headline in the Stephen Avery making a murder case.

A Wisconsin detective has just sued Netflix over portraying him as a corrupt officer who planted evidence. And I got to tell you, back to Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, I want to go through the forensics with you. But Kathleen Murphy, when you file a defamation lawsuit saying somebody else is lying about you, you darn well better be telling the truth yourself. Absolutely. Because you're going to get dragged through the mud if you're lying.

So he's putting himself on the hot seat to sue Netflix. And to me, that speaks volumes if he's willing to go through this and claim they lied about me. It speaks volumes that he has an attorney that will pursue that type of lawsuit. You're right. It better be well planned. And it is. And it better be correct to Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University and author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Joe Scott, I want to go through the forensics regarding Stephen Avery's guilt. What about the DNA on the hoodlatch of Teresa Hallback's vehicle? I'm thinking, you know, the origins of this DNA. DNA is very specific to

individuals, as your audience who is, you know, highly educated as a result of everything they hear us talk about knows. It's individualization. You know, how did it arrive at that point? And that's the one thing that the producers of the show and all the other peripherals that are involved in this, they cannot overcome the science in this particular case. You know, his DNA on the hoodlatch, I think that there are a total of, let's see, how many was it? I think it was like six different individual dollops of blood that are linked back to him that are found. You can't escape this. The numbers are astronomical when it comes to matching him to his specific DNA strand, Nancy. As it is shown on the Netflix documentary, this retired detective, Colburn,

asked dispatch on a recorded call to run a license plate number, which comes back to belonging to Hallback, who had already been identified as a missing person at that point. When Colburn gets the info, he immediately can be heard saying, 99 Toyota? That's the year and make of the car belonging to Hallback found on the property. Now, in the film, Stephen Avery's lawyer, Dean Strang, asked Colburn about the call while he was on the stand. And he implies the way he responded made it seem as though he was looking at Hallback's car, which wasn't said to have been discovered until two days after the call. So it makes, they're pretending that he had Teresa's car at the time they were calling in. I mean, there's just so much innuendo, so much suggestion as to the truth.

With me is, go ahead, jump in. Yeah, Nancy, I got to tell you one other big piece to this that that everybody looks at in this case and they talk about motivations for the police i don't i don't know that the the the world at large understands how much orchestration would have to be involved in this and it comes back to one simple fact they talked about that Avery, if people will remember, was exonerated as being falsely charged and imprisoned for this other case that he was involved in that was ghastly in and of itself. And they talk about, well, the police were motivated as a result of him being let out. Let's take a look at the flip side of that. Maybe, just maybe, Stephen Avery is a predator by nature, that this is a

continuation of the behaviors that he's been engaged in for a protracted period of time throughout his life. So if you're going to say one thing, you have to look at the other side as well. Bravo. With me is John Lee, retired reporter from the Alpton Post-Crescent and the Gannett Wisconsin newspapers. John Lee, what do you make of it? He hit it right on the head. These were guys, these are small town cops that were portrayed as being bumbling idiots and not good enough to do a major investigation and crooked and everything else. All of a sudden it flip flops and they become geniuses on setting up this guy.

People that haven't read transcripts, people that haven't believed transcripts, all of a sudden believe the crap that Avery's attorney is putting out. Look at his background, burning a cat, throwing a live cat in a fire, attempted sexual assault of a neighbor who happened to be the wife of a deputy sheriff, the alleged rape of a young relative, which the Brown County District Attorney had enough evidence to proceed with, but didn't want to in the middle of this trial. And because the victim was reluctant. This is not an isolated incident. Look at things that were not allowed to be brought into the jury, like the sketch of the torture chamber that Avery drew while he was in prison,

as well as other things on how to clean forensic evidence. Excuse me, what did you say, John Lee, about a sketch he drew in prison? It's in the court record. It was one of the items not allowed in trial by Judge Willis. I think it's referenced in Ken Kratz's book, and I know that we did stories on it in the pretrial hearings, but they had a pencil sketch that Avery drew and was provided by another prisoner in prison when he was serving his 18-year term that showed how we planned to build a concrete torture chamber with rings on a wall and concrete and manacles and chains in the whole shot. And witness from a cellmate on what he was going to do and how he was going to abduct and torture women. That's part of the court record. I did not see that in a documentary by the

Avery PR firm. Because he was wrongfully convicted once does not mean he didn't do anything else. Bombshell in court in the last hours, a retired Wisconsin detective sues Netflix over, quote, portraying him, the detective, as a corrupt police officer who planted evidence to frame an innocent man in making a murderer. He has sued not only Netflix, but the producers who recorded thousands and thousands of hours and then whittled it down to create, according to him, a false picture of the Avery prosecution. His complaint names the filmmakers by name Laura Riccardi and Maura Demos. They're all going to court.

You know what? Who's telling the truth? We'll find out in court. But I want you to hear from Police Files a confession by Stephen Avery, the star, the media darling of Netflix, nephew who was there with Avery when Avery raped and murdered 27-year-old Teresa Hallback. You listen for yourself. I'm just going to revisit one thing. When you were in the bedroom and you cut her throat. Previously you said that you thought she was alive.

Is that still your thought on that? Yeah. And why was that? Because she was breathing a little bit. She was like trying to, not trying to breathe as hard as she could. And screaming, screaming a lot. She was screaming a lot or wasn't? She was.

When you cut her throat, was she screaming? Uh-uh. Oh. When you cut her throat? Because when you scream a lot, your breathing goes up or something. Explain that a little bit. You said she was screaming a lot. When was she screaming a lot?

Like, while you were doing it, after you did it, before you did it? Before. When you cut her throat, what was she doing, if anything? Like, screaming for help and crying. I wanna get that straight. She was screaming for help and crying

when you cut her throat? Yeah. When did Steven chokeoker or strangler like a little bit after well let's let's just go back a little bit okay tell us what exactly happened to her what order happened so there were basically three things prior to you guys shooting her. Explain those in the order that it happened. Starting with when we got in the room. Yeah, what you guys did to her. We had sex with her. Okay. Then he stabbed her. Then who stabbed her and who stabbed her he did who's he steven okay and then what and i cut her throat and he choked her and i cut off her hair okay so he choked her after you cut her throat you are hearing the part of the confession of Stephen Avery's nephew,

Brendan Dassey. We were taking a look at a bombshell document that is happening right now. The entire premise of season one of Making a Murderer is a question of whether Stephen Avery, a junkyard owner who had already spent time behind bars on a crime he didn't commit, and his nephew, Brendan Dassey, were they framed for the murder of Teresa Hallback, 25-year-old photographer? Well, the evidence is overwhelming and the defense theory that police orchestrated this whole thing is beyond the pale.

It makes no sense to John Lee, investigative reporter with the Gannett Wisconsin newspapers John Lee what happened in Making a Murderer the way it was produced and all the the film cut and the testimony cut that's exactly what the detective is talking about for only certain parts of testimony is mish-mashed together, cobbled together in a quilt that looks so damning. It shows him, the detective, pacing around nervously before his testimony as if he's guilty of something. In Ken Kratz's book and also in Andy Colburn's lawsuit, they do some side-by-side comparisons with transcripts of what the court record shows

and what making a murderer show. And you can see being kind, calling it creative editing, not being kind, you just call it lying. These people were embedded with the Avery family from the first week. They had seen a story. They were film students in New York. They made millions of dollars off them. I hope some of it has to go to Andy Colbert for the damage they've done to him. You know, and he has had to stand by Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, and watch his reputation dragged through the mud.

That really, really hurts, especially when you can't really defend yourself. Dr. Daniel Bober, you are a forensic psychiatrist. Could you please analyze the portion of the confession I just played by Brendan Dassey? Well, I mean, I think it seems like it's, you know, he's being sincere in a strange way. That's a word I should even use. It doesn't sound like it's false. It sounds like he's being completely genuine, very matter of fact, and he doesn't sound like he's deceiving at all. You know, this lawsuit filed on behalf of Detective Colburn is

very detailed. It talks about one scene in Making making a murderer that states that an insinuation was objected to and and sustained but it makes it look like according to the lawsuit that a crucial line of testimony was falsely conveyed to the viewers that the detective had located Halbach's SUV somewhere other than the salvage yard, the junkyard, days earlier, and likely assisted cops in planting it on Stephen Avery's junkyard. They are, according to the lawsuit, making it look like this detective found Halbach's car

and then dragged it, helped drag it to Stephen Avery's place. Now, this is all before Avery was arrested. He didn't notice a bunch of cops dragging a car and hiding it on his junkyard? How did that happen? How was that supposed to happen, John Lee?

You know, the theory that they're trying on this planting was tried by or attempted by avery's original attorneys uh in preset uh pre-trial hearings and was thrown out by the trial judge for being speculative and having no basis, no proof or anything else. What Kathleen Zeller, Avery's appellate attorney, is doing is just throwing stuff on the wall and seeing if anything sticks. Well, none of it has stuck so far. Well, you know what? You're right, John Lee. And I just want to point something out really quickly to Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family divorce

lawyer. Part of what John Lee is saying, the part about this lawyer, Kathleen Zellner, she's filed an appeal for a retrial and she cites ineffective assistance of counsel, i.e. the lawyers were crappy for the defense. But she's also filed documents pointing the finger at dassey's older brother bobby so she's now pointing the finger at his relatives claiming oh you know what you know how i said they had nothing to do with actually his brother did it that's who did it i mean it's just so screwed up she's doing that after a previous motion was thrown out where she tried to point the finger at Teresa's roommate and former boyfriend. You know, so now it's a game of pointing fingers. Take a listen to our friend at WBAY. This is Sharon Baginda. The lawsuit claims the making a murderer series portrays Colburn as a corrupt officer who framed an innocent man by planting evidence. He said that she was taking

some pictures of a van. Steven Avery and his nephew Brendan Dassey were convicted of Halbach's murder in 2007, but Avery has been wrongly convicted in the past of sexually assaulting a different woman in 1985. Colburn's lawsuit says the makers of the documentary spliced reaction shots of Colburn appearing nervous and apprehensive during trial. I believe that. And heavily edited Colburn's testimony to making viewers think he planted evidence inside Halbach's car and in Avery's bedroom. The complaint also says making a murderer failed to release significant facts in the trial like Avery's DNA being located on Halbach's hood latch, Avery's differing statements, and a bullet with Hallbox DNA

linked to a firearm hung on Avery's wall. The court battle rages on. It ain't over yet. I'm just telling you, Stephen Avery murdered Teresa Hallback and a whole lot more. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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