Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - COPS: PREP SCHOOL GRAD USES GOLF CLUB TO KILL BROTHER FACES PROBABLE CAUSE HEARING

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. In the last days, a star athlete accused in his brother's gruesome murder back in court as prosecutors prepare an indictment. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. That's right.

Starting point is 00:00:28 A Princeton man known as a star student now accused of murdering his own brother and the family cat. He was in court. Prosecutors preparing to take his case to a secret grand jury. The victim, 26-year-old Joseph Hurtgen, the family superstar, brutally murdered, the family's superstar, brutally murdered

Starting point is 00:00:47 in the family's Princeton apartment with a knife and a golf club. A probable cause hearing is set down for the next few weeks, but that may be totally sidestepped if the state gets an indictment first. A probable cause hearing is when evidence is brought forth to a magistrate judge. The judge decides if there's enough probable cause for the case to be bound over to superior court or felony court. But all that can be easily sidestepped if the state simply takes the case to a grand jury. A probable cause hearing is never a good thing for the state. Why? Because it's a public hearing and the defense gets a chance to cross-examine the state's witnesses. That's kind of like a dry run for the trial. No, no, no. Don't do that. Go to grand jury. That said, what do we

Starting point is 00:01:48 believe happened based on police sources and police reports we've managed to obtain? Listen. Flashing lights and sirens break the usual silence outside the luxury Michelle Muse apartments just off Princeton University campus around 1115 p.m. Police answer a 911 call to the nearly $7,000 a month complex, reporting a death and a fire. Units in the building sell for as much as $2 million. As responders arrive, flames are not visible, and police work to gain access to the building. Truer words were never spoken. Money can't buy love or happiness. A $7,000 a month apartment and they can't be happy with every luxury. They could be provided still. Brother kills brother. A story as old as Genesis. Joining me,

Starting point is 00:02:37 an all-star panel to make sense of what we are learning tonight, straight out to Karen Wall, senior local editor, Patch Media. Karen, thank you for being with us. First of all, can you describe where this occurred? This apartment is in the middle of a very new complex. These apartments were built in 2019, it appears. And they're right in the middle of Palmer Square, which is high-end shops. The whole block where they are

Starting point is 00:03:11 is essentially self-contained. The apartment isn't accessible directly from the street. You have to go through an archway to get into it. When you say luxury shops, what do you mean by that? We're talking high-end boutiques, where you're not walking in there unless you're pulling down thousands of dollars a month in income. You know, it's amazing to me to look at all these photos. And guys, we're getting these photos that you're seeing right there off of their, the family's social media. That's where

Starting point is 00:03:41 we're learning so much about these two soccer star brothers. Now one dead. You know, Phil Waters, help me out here. Phil Waters, guys, you know him well. Former homicide detective for Houston PD. President, CEO, Kindred Spirits Investigations. Phil, I mean, I've been in so many housing projects. I've tromped through crack houses, brothels, for lack of a better word,

Starting point is 00:04:08 you name it, under bridges and strip clubs where murders go down. But really, you're looking down at what Brooks Brothers and Ann Taylor, that's probably not posh enough, actually. And these people still, with all of that, they still have to kill each other? I mean, these two were soccer stars at preppy schools, bringing in tons of money, silver spoon, the works. What is wrong with these people? Well, it just goes to show that people with money still have problems like the rest of us. As you've already talked about, I'm reminded. Wait, Phil. Okay.

Starting point is 00:04:50 Don't start it off wrong. Okay. Problems. Yeah. Problems. But I don't have the problem that I want to murder a family member and our cat and dog and guinea pig. I don't have that. I don't call that really a problem. I call a problem an illness, a family member with maybe an addiction, going broke and losing your home

Starting point is 00:05:11 and living under a bridge. Those are problems. The urge, the sudden urge to club your brother dead with a golf club, then stab him. I don't call that a problem. I call that premeditation and murderous intent. Well, I would have to say that it's something like this, regardless of the setting. It doesn't happen in a vacuum. And what I have noticed, if I have a case like this in all my cases, I always put together a psychological autopsy on the suspect. Because when I get them in the interview room, I want to be able to address the whys behind the act. And in this particular case, the one thing I've noticed is that in the description in

Starting point is 00:05:52 the media of these two men, the younger brother, the victim here, Joseph, is always described in his great successes in high school, his great successes in college at the University of Michigan with the soccer, with his academics, and then his success with his job, the work that he's been involved in. And then when you talk about the description of the brother, the suspect in this case, it just says he played soccer at Wesleyan. So there is a real backstory here that is yet to develop. But I would tell you that this didn't happen. This was not an instant decision. This is something that has been building, building, building. And this is, you know, what we would call a smoking gun case.

Starting point is 00:06:46 Well, in this case, it's a smoking golf club. No, no. To everything you just said, all of what you just said may very well be true. OK, maybe true. But what you are describing is a motive for murder. And that motive is jealousy. I still don't see that as a problem that we all have. A family problem that would lead to a drastic act, in my mind, would be something severe and not you're jealous of your little brother because he outdid you on the soccer field. And speaking of jealousy in this case, to a special guest joining us, Sam Bassett, a renowned criminal defense attorney at Minton, Bassett, Flores, and Carsey, and let me add, former president of the Texas Criminal Defense Lawyers Educational Institute. Sam,

Starting point is 00:07:41 I hear everything Phil just said, and he may be factually 100% accurate, but about five years into prosecuting nothing but violent crime, I was looking over at a defendant, a killer, a murderer, and it wasn't his first time. Why? Why would he leave such a wake of pain behind him over nothing? And then it hit me. Five years it took me. Why ask why? Because the state never has to prove motive, doesn't Sam Bassett. It does not. I think this case kind of has a resonating theme. In Texas a few years ago, we had a case where the defense put on an expert to talk about the affluenza, the psychological effect of wealth and privilege on a young man who had committed a crime and to try to mitigate the responsibility. Now, that fell on unsympathetic ears for 90% of the public because it's hard to stomach. As you said, it's hard to stomach how somebody with all these privileges

Starting point is 00:08:51 and all these blessings can do something like this. And I think you have to begin to peel the onion skin layers and try to understand what was going on inside this older brother's head other than just jealousy. It has to be something even worse. You just said the state doesn't have to prove motive. Why do I have to get in his head and look around in there to figure out why he brutally murdered his brother and the family cat. Now you were referring to a defense called affluenza when typically an adult man child is so used to a silver spoon in his mouth that he can't relate to real life. Now see right now you barking up the wrong tree. My dad worked the swing shift for the railroad my whole

Starting point is 00:09:42 life and my mom started off as a bank teller. All right. So the whole affluenza, I'm too rich to be held accountable thing is not working right here. But speaking of the affluenza teen, he was not a teen, but the affluenza defense, you're referring to Ethan Couch. I remember him. Well, a Tarrant County case. Listen. Tarrant County case. Listen. in the truck. Okay, you're in the truck. Are you injured? Um, we just, we just need some help. And how many people are injured, just for my record? Dude, I have no idea. You don't know how many people are injured? Yeah, we're gonna call an ambulance. That's him, Ethan Couch. He flipped his souped-up truck, killing three, killing three, including a youth minister on the side of the road trying to change a woman's flat tire and permanently, permanently paralyzing another victim. And take a listen to the sentence.

Starting point is 00:11:03 Look at my brother. He's doing more than a 20 day period of 128 or whatever. He's doing more than 10 years on probation. Ethan Couch is such a spoiled child when he kills four people while driving under the influence of drugs and speeding through a residential area. creates a special defense for him due to his affluenza and place the blame for the car crash and the deaths squarely on the shoulders of his parents for never punishing him for anything he does wrong and giving him everything he wants. If it had been prosecuted for murder, he'd be in jail right now as it was. It was a lesser voluntary. He could have gotten 20 years behind bars on each count. But what did he get? An unspecified sentence to a treatment facility. He goes on the run and he's found with his mother holed up in a five-star resort in Mexico. He was caught ordering room service, ordering pizza.

Starting point is 00:12:08 Okay, him, Ethan Couch, you brought it up. I didn't, affluenza. And that's what we're seeing here as well. When you heard from Alex Molina, the brother of the permanently paralyzed Sergio Molina, that was from our friends at Fort Worth Star-Telegram. Back to this case. Listen. 11.16 p.m. Saturday night, Princeton police receive a 911 call about a dead body and a fire in an apartment building. The caller, Matthew Hurtgen, remains cryptic on the phone, not answering the dispatcher's questions about who is dead, why they are dead, who owns the apartment and more. Police and first

Starting point is 00:12:47 responders surround the building, but nothing could have prepared officers for what they found inside. To our friend Karen Wool joining us from Patch Media. What did they find inside, Karen. Reporting says that they found Joseph dead, the family cat dead, and they found a bloody knife plate and Joseph's eyeball missing. The cat apparently had been set on fire. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. In the last days, a star athlete accused in his Princeton brother's horrific murder in court as prosecutors prepared to take the case to a grand jury. What happened in that Princeton apartment? Joining us right now, Phil Waters, veteran homicide detective. It was a rage attack.

Starting point is 00:13:50 Why do you say that? Well, just the scene itself. When I walk into a scene like this, the first thing that's going to stick out to me is it's overkill. You know, this use of a golf club and a knife and the condition of the body of the victim. And then you've got this subtext over here with the killing of the cat. So there's some kind of symbolism here between everything that happened in that scene. This is one of these things where, as I walked into any scene, I let it talk to me. I want to take a look at it. And what do these things indicate to me about what happened in this in this moment in time in that apartment?

Starting point is 00:14:28 Dr. Jan Gorniak is joining us. Renowned former medical examiner at the Clark County Office of Medical Examiners at Vegas. Never lack of business. She's seen more dead bodies than probably all of us put together, even having visited many crime scenes. Dr. Gorniak, thank you for being with us. Do you agree with Phil's assessment, Phil Waters, that this is a rage attack? If so, why? I'm not sure I can agree with that because that's outside of my lane. So as a forensic pathologist or a death investigator, we go in and we note the injuries that we see. But to categorize it as a rage, that's not what we typically do. But I can understand why Phyllis is saying that and overkill because the use of more than one weapon, a golf club and a sharp force instrument as the knife. Well, I'm curious, Dr. Gorniak, when you say overkill, what do you mean by that? And what here leads you to call it overkill?

Starting point is 00:15:36 Well, the use of more than one weapon. So you have a blunt object, which is the golf club, and then you have a sharp force weapon, which is a knife. I'm not sure exactly what injuries he has, but it sounds like most of them are from the golf club. I've done plenty of cases, both blunt force injuries and sharp force injuries. Sometimes you have one stab wound and someone is dead. Sometimes you have 96. So depending on that, or just the number of wounds that you can take a golf club and strike somebody in the head one time and cause their death, or you strike them about the body and not only do they have head injury, but they have chest injury,

Starting point is 00:16:17 heart lacerations, liver lacerations. Dr. Gorniak, have you ever seen a murder victim that had a body part gouged out, as in this case? I have not. It's been 20 years I've been practicing. I have not. I've had dismembered bodies. But to gouge out an eye in this case, I think that would have given me the willies if I was at that scene. Because, I mean, I've seen a lot, but that probably would have been a little bit too much for me. You know, I want to go to Dr. Jeff Kaliszewski again.

Starting point is 00:16:49 Dr. Jeff, why in criminal law doesn't matter now? Practically speaking, it does, actually, because a jury wants to hear what's the motive. Right. They want to hear. Could you describe what is the middle child syndrome? The alleged killer, the brother in this case, was the middle child. The older brother, superstar. The younger brother eclipsed the suspect in every way. He himself was a shining star. He played soccer at a really ritzy prep school in Tom's River. He went on to play soccer, a starting soccer player for another elite prep school, Wesleyan. I guess that wasn't enough to satisfy his ego. What's with the middle child syndrome?

Starting point is 00:17:52 Well, there's this stereotype that the middle child gets less attention so that they have to do things to get more attention. But this is clearly beyond a middle child who's jealous of a little brother. There's a lot more going on in this case than that. Just when we talked earlier about using a golf club and then a knife, we talked about, is this a rage killing? There's more going on than this. You know, if someone uses a golf club, and I've had plenty of cases where people have used golf clubs and gouged out eyes and said, pet's on fire, believe it or not. The golf club can't kill you, but

Starting point is 00:18:25 it's usually, it can be on one hip, but it's not a very efficient murder weapon. So for what we talked about already in this case, this killer was obviously into the experience of the murder, took it a step further where gouging out eyeballs, this is an experience rather than just aim. I want to off my brother that I'm jealous of. And then the idea of setting the cat on fire again, for some reason, this person is carrying out these acts and these murders for the experience rather than just the motivation or the aim that I want to off my little brother who I'm jealous of. OK, Kaliszewski, hold on. I'm just a JD. I'm not a forensic psychologist like yourself, author of Dark Sides on YouTube.

Starting point is 00:19:14 Dr. Jeff Kieliszewski, forensic psychologist. Dr. Jeff, the experience, we've been analyzing that theory in depth when it relates to Brian Koberger, the Ph.D. criminology student out at Pullman in Washington State. And the working theory is that with no connection to the four murdered college students murdered in their own beds in the wee hours of the morning before Thanksgiving break, because he was obsessed with the experience. He had been asking in a study for his PhD, asking violent felons, a questionnaire, Like, what did you feel just before you committed the crime? What were you thinking? What were you feeling? What went through your mind?

Starting point is 00:20:11 What did it feel like when you identified your, quote, target? How did you feel during it? Were you cognizant of finding a way out or a quick exit? In retrospect, how do you feel about what you experienced during the crime? He was obsessed with it, then carefully plotted and planned the murders and then carried them out. Many people thinking his desire was the experience to know what it feels like to kill someone. What are you talking about in this case? The middle child syndrome, the middle child wants the experience of gouging his little brother's eyeball out? For some reason he does, because again, if this is a simple, straightforward,

Starting point is 00:21:00 I hate my brother and I'm going to kill him, Like you said, that goes all the way back to Genesis. It would have been done a lot more efficiently and it would have not taken as long. And this experience of using a couple murder weapons, gouging the eyeball, setting the cat on fire. There's more here than just a straightforward murder with a motivation of jealousy or just a hate of your brother. Hey, Dr. Jeff Kalaszewski, listen to this. The, of course, cause of death for Joseph is pending autopsy. But we know he was bludgeoned, according to police sources that spoke to the Post. Matthew played.

Starting point is 00:21:51 Now, this is the suspect, brother Matthew Hurtgen, now 31, no longer a fresh shied, fresh faced, bright eyed teen playing soccer. He's a grown man. I bet you anything living off his mom and dad. But that remains to be seen. He played soccer at Tom's River North High School and went on to play at the elite Wesleyan University in Connecticut. OK, so he played college soccer. That's a big deal. That's hard to do. Very few people make it onto a starting college sports team.

Starting point is 00:22:17 I don't care how great you are in Little League. You're probably not going to make it onto a college team. He did. And he played on the college team for years at Westland. Was that not enough for his ego? Then comes along little brother, a three-time academic, all big 10 soccer player played at University Michigan, 2016 to 2019. He, the little brother now murdered high school, two-time MVP, offensive player of the year, graduated from the Stephen M. Ross School of Business and had a

Starting point is 00:22:55 career in asset management per the news. Now, hold on. Phil Waters was describing these two brothers. And there's an older brother, by the way, an older brother, Joseph Hurtgen, who is a shining star in his career. Phil Waters, you're talking about how you just couldn't find that much about the alleged killer. Nobody can. We find out a lot about the victim. We found out a lot about the older brother, but not much about the alleged killer brother. Phil, you're right. Well, I tell you what, it's just an indication.

Starting point is 00:23:34 And again, I'm looking at this thing as a homicide cop walking into this scene. I agree with the doctor to a degree that once he started the killing that he was getting into the experience. But look, it started, this fuse started burning a long time ago, in my opinion. And it finally got to the point where something happened in that apartment that day between he and his brother that finally blew the lid off of this thing. And so, again, these things don't happen in a vacuum. I just think it is, it's, I think there's more to it than just a simple jealousy.

Starting point is 00:24:16 This is something that is built and built and built over years from a lot of different directions. And I think the fact that we know very little about the suspect in this case, to me, as a homicide cop, is an indicator. That's why I would want to get him in an interview room and delve into where did this start and how did it manifest itself into this brutal, evil killing of his brother.

Starting point is 00:24:42 Did a college soccer star murder his little brother, also a college soccer star, in their ritzy apartment? At the University of Michigan, Joseph Hurtgen continues to receive awards for academic excellence off the field. Hurtgen majors in business administration, accounting and finance, graduates with honors and lands a job as an analyst for Locust Point Capital. Wow. What you are seeing is from the We Are Soccer Michigan Facebook page, the little brother now dead, a shining star. Listen. A former college soccer player is being charged with brutally murdering his younger brother and setting their family cat on fire in a ritzy apartment just steps from Princeton

Starting point is 00:25:24 University. 31-year-old Matthew Hurtgen is now in police custody in Mercer County, New Jersey, after reportedly using a golf club and a kitchen knife to bludgeon and slash baby brother Joseph Hurtgen, who is an even more successful athlete, to death. Police sources say the youngest Hurtgen was missing an eye, and a bloody plate and fork were found not far from his body. Straight up to Sam Bassett joining us, a veteran trial lawyer out of Texas. What do you make of the fact that both

Starting point is 00:25:51 murder weapons were readily accessible? It's not like, again, let's use Koberger. He had to buy the murder weapon. Oh, who is presumed innocent until proven guilty, by the way. He had to buy the murder weapon on Amazon and stealthily sneak over to the murder scene. In this case, both weapons were right there, the golf club and the knife. That actually adds to the legal formula here. I think it does. I think it adds to the speculation that it might have been a rage attack, something that triggered him to be really angry at his brother and just go off on him. And then he just didn't stop. To Dr. Jan Gorniak, former medical examiner in Vegas. Dr. Gorniak, weigh in.

Starting point is 00:26:37 So we were talking before about the eye gouging being postmortem. I believe it postmortem, it didn't happen during the fight, because as humans, we're going to fight back. Also, where I sit, it's also, I guess my job is easier than the detectives or the attorneys, because we're just involved with the cause and the manner of death. So we know the cause, blunt force injuries, sharp force injuries, the manner of death is homicide. We don't deal in with the whys. But as humans, we always want to know. But we're sitting here trying to rationalize irrational behavior. But that's what we do. Because it doesn't make sense. So we're trying to make sense of it and try to come up with a story. But I also have to say we haven't talked about mental health.

Starting point is 00:27:28 I think mental health plays a big role in this case. We don't know his mental status. Maybe he, like you said, didn't get along with his brother. But there could be some underlying mental health issues that he is undiagnosed, untreated, but there's something else definitely going on. Joining me is a renowned former medical examiner, Dr. Gorniak. Did you specialize at any point in psychiatry or psychology? I did not. I did not. Okay, but yet you were saying there's a mental health issue. Can I ask you,

Starting point is 00:28:05 do you have a scintilla of evidence such as a prior diagnosis, treatment, prescriptions from a doctor that he may he the alleged killer may have had? Do you know anything at all regarding that? I don't. I'm just putting it another layer into a, the why, because we're trying to figure out what's the why. Okay. So you know, nothing at all about his mental health yet. You are assuming because he killed his brother and gouged his eye out that he must have a mental illness. Is that your supposition? That is not it. I said, we cannot not think about it. We have to think about it. We're thinking about everything else. But we do have a mental health issue in this country that there's a lot of people that aren't treated.

Starting point is 00:28:53 And we have to make sure that that's not it's not the why. It's not an excuse. But this obviously is not normal behavior. You I mean, I grew up with a sister. We put up Dr. Gorniak yet again? Dr. Gorniak, on behalf of all murder victims across our country, do you believe murdering anyone? Let's just say an infant lying in its crib. Do you think that's normal behavior?

Starting point is 00:29:21 Okay. Somehow, because the eye is gouged out, you are saying that he may, with no evidence whatsoever, have a mental health issue. And in my world, what that means is he will go to a treatment facility and ultimately walk free in about 18 months. That's what that means, Dr. Gorniak. No, that's not what I'm saying. So because there is also you have and I'm not a lawyer. I don't try cases, but I know there's things about guilty by reason of insanity. I'm not saying he's insane, but there has to be. We can't. And why did you bring it up? There's things I bought. You're not saying you're saying that. Why did you bring it up? Let me say something up here. You're all joining me with Patch Media.

Starting point is 00:30:08 Karen, isn't it true, and this is a lightning round, Karen. Isn't it true that the alleged killer, the brother, the middle child, called 911? Isn't that true? Yes. Yes, he called 911. And isn't it also true when the police arrived, he opened the door and essentially led them, according to the post, to there's the body, right? Yes. Yes. A family tragedy in New Jersey. A Princeton murder suspect kills his younger brother and his cat with a knife and golf club. So curious if he had the wherewithal to know

Starting point is 00:30:50 what he did was wrong and report it to 911 and usher in the police, Sam Bassett. This is a yes, no, because I know you're going to want to argue this till you're blue in the face. But is it our law in the American jurisprudence? Insanity is based on the old McNaughton rule that was brought over in our common law from Great Britain. And the McNaughton rule of insanity is litmus. And it is did perp know right from wrong at the time of the incident? Not now that he's lawyered up and they're saying, hey, act crazy. At the time of the incident, he had the wherewithal to know what he did was wrong and call 911 and bring in the police.

Starting point is 00:31:39 Isn't that true? That is true. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A grand jury set to convene in the case of a star athlete charged in his own brother's murder in a Mercer County Superior Courtroom, felony prosecutors stated they plan to take Hurtgen's case to a grand jury to get an indictment. That way, in the nick of time, they beat a probable cause hearing scheduled in the next few weeks. The defendant, Hurtgen, agreed to pretrial detention. What does that mean? That the prosecution did not need to go to court to show evidence proving why he should be held behind bars while he awaits trial. Now, appearing virtually from jail, he seemed polite during a brief appearance, telling the judge good afternoon.

Starting point is 00:32:38 Yet I'm sure he's going to claim mental instability. He knew enough to say thank you when the judge told him to have a good day as the hearing ended. To Dr. Jan Gorniak, former medical examiner in Vegas, I don't tell you how to perform an autopsy, do I? Have I ever told you how to perform an autopsy? No, but I'm also a physician. I'm not just an autopsist. I am a doctor first. So when I do autopsies, we look at not only I mean, obviously, I'm not going to say whether someone is guilty or not. I also have to look at the medical history, social history of my my my patient also. So you're going to say that my patient, right?

Starting point is 00:33:25 So I will. I'm not. But you're talking about a mental health issue of the alleged killer. That's not your patient, is it? It's not. But I'm saying I'm saying he's crazy. Mental. I have anxiety. That is a mental health disorder. I'm having anxiety right now. But I'm saying so depression, anxiety, personality disorder, but there's it's

Starting point is 00:33:46 there's something else, in my opinion, right? And I'm not diagnosing, I'm not saying he's insane. I'm not saying he didn't know right from wrong. But it's part of you're trying to figure out what else is in his history. So what else is in his history? And I think medical, mental, social history is very important when you're going to look at the totality of why someone did something. How about he's mean as hell and he has consumed mind, body and soul with decades of jealousy for his shining star little brother. What about that? That's not a male illness. Well, maybe it's a coping. Why isn't he able to cope with that?

Starting point is 00:34:33 Why isn't he able to say congratulations and not be that jealous? I understand that. I'm not arguing. I'm not saying I get it, but I'm just saying we're trying to rationalize irrational behavior. And I'm just saying there's many layers to everybody.

Starting point is 00:34:47 And we have to look at his social history. You know, does he abuse drugs? I don't know. Does he abuse alcohol? We don't know that. Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. We have no evidence of drug use.

Starting point is 00:35:01 And just FYI, before you blurt that out again, voluntary use of drugs or alcohol are not a defense under the law. I don't care if he does have a drug problem. I don't care if he drinks himself silly breakfast, lunch, and dinner. That is not an excuse. How about this, Kalashevsky? Consumed with jealousy starting from day one when that child, the baby brother, the murder victim is brought home from the hospital and mommy's loving on it and daddy's loving on it. And then he gets outshined at the soccer field. He gets outshined in school. The brother gets this great job. He doesn't. In fact, can I see the picture? The alleged killer posted the day before the murder. While the brother's out working, the murder victim, the perp's at home taking selfies

Starting point is 00:35:57 of him with a cat toy. There you go. This is him. While the brother is out making a living, he's at home taking selfies with a cat toy. Kieliszewski. Well, the bottom line is, and I think the medical examiner was getting into this, it's not usual for her to do an autopsy on a murder victim where the eye's been gouged out, likely post-mortem. So you can go with the theory of this is a jealous brother rage, but there's a lot of weird stuff going on beyond just a murder that happened.

Starting point is 00:36:34 And I think those are the things that people are noticing more than the straightforward murder case. And I think that's why these questions of mental health comes up because of these sort of unusual weird things that are outside of just a normal. I'm jealous of my brother and I hate him and I'm going to kill him. I think he's dead. He's been shot. He's been shot? Yes. Hello, ma'am. You said your husband was shot? Yes. How long ago? Probably 10, 15 minutes ago, 10 minutes ago, maybe. 10 minutes ago he was shot? Maybe 15. By whom?

Starting point is 00:37:07 My son, who is nuts. But I didn't know he was this nuts. Another spoiled rich brat, preppy killer. That one is Thomas Gilbert Jr., who guns down his father, sends his mom out for a sandwich, and mommy trots off to the deli. And while she's gone, he guns down dad because dad finally was going to cut off his allowance, Thomas Gilbert Jr. And now we've got another spoiled rich brat who murders his brother. Now, a lot has been made, even of our renowned medical examiner, Dr. Jan Gorniak, who ventures to guess

Starting point is 00:37:45 maybe he is mentally ill, maybe he has a drug or alcohol problem, or maybe he's consumed with jealousy and finally kills his roommate, his own little brother. Karen Wall, what can you tell me about the alleged killer's poetry. But first, hold on. I've taken the liberty of recording some of it. Listen. Is that your voice or is that my voice? Was that the work of my hands or was that the work of your hands?

Starting point is 00:38:17 Do you like to watch me suffer? Do you like to crush me with pain? It disturbingly continues. Now, what is it that you want me to do this time? Do you want me to burn everything down? Must I sacrifice everything to your altar? Is there not enough ashes already? Okay, I just exhoriated Dr. Gorniak for giving a psychiatric opinion. But from my vantage point, he, the alleged killer that murdered his little brother, is complaining about the little brother. Do you like to crush me with pain? Do you like to watch me suffer? What do you want me to do

Starting point is 00:39:00 this time? Burn everything down? Must I sacrifice everything to your altar? Yeah, that's how I read it, Karen Wall. How much bizarre poetry has the alleged killer written? There's reams of it online. There's at least two that we were able to find that I was able to find in searching. But as as the police detective said before, it was hours of searching to find anything to even give any hint of what Matt is about and who he is and what is going on. The poetry is very disturbing. Look at these excerpts that he has posted on Facebook. Quote, he still has a pulse. Blood still flows through his veins, but something's wrapped around him, squeezing him, choking him, suffocating him. Blood oozes out of his eyes. He convulses. He doesn't stop. He's lost. He's asleep. He's dead. His body's surrounded by fire. He set the cat on fire. The fires are blazing inside of him. Now, what is it that you want me to do this time? Do you want me to burn everything down? Houston PD, president of Kindred Spirits Investigations and Security, Phil Waters.

Starting point is 00:40:27 Now, a lot of people may do contortions about his mental health as an excuse for what he did, but he called 911. He ushered police into the body. What I would describe this as is wishful thinking, blood coming out of your eyes, fire around you. He's describing the murder scene before he did it. I would agree to a degree of that. I want to come to the defense a little bit to the good doctor there. The discussion about mental health in this thing, as a homicide detective, what we're going to try to determine is what happened and how did that occur? What was the timeline on this thing? You know, we keep talking about the eye being gouged out,

Starting point is 00:41:16 and other than it being said, I don't know that. So what I'm going to see is the autopsy. Did the eye come out because he was beating him with a golf club? And then once he saw that, then he went ahead and finished the job. So there's a lot of stuff going on here. One thing leads to the other. And when I would attend the autopsy, which I did in every homicide case, I would get with a doctor and we would discuss what I found at the scene.

Starting point is 00:41:48 So it's all part of the same formula. So the discussion about mental health is going to be part of the investigative discussion. Let me just be clear where I'm coming from here. A mental defect will not negate intent to kill. I am standing for the crime victim. You may think me harsh, but what matters is justice for this crime victim. The Constitution will protect the defendant. We are here to protect the crime victim. The Constitution will protect the defendant. We are here to protect the crime victim. Also, we are learning the Princeton Preppy murder suspect's parents

Starting point is 00:42:33 were no-shows when their son appeared in court. We wait as justice unfolds and to find out what the grand jury has to say. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - COPS: PREP SCHOOL GRAD USES GOLF CLUB TO KILL BROTHER FACES PROBABLE CAUSE HEARING

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