Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - 'Cough syrup killer' allegedly stabs young wife 123 times, obsessed with 'American Psycho'

Episode Date: April 4, 2018

When a would-be North Carolina pastor, called 911 he explained that he had taken a strong cough medicine before falling asleep only to wake up to find his wife stabbed to death. While Matthew Phelps may hope the cough syrup defense might save him from a murder conviction, police say the 26-year-old was obsessed with "American Psycho," a movie about a serial killer. Nancy Grace digs into the case with medical examiner Dr. William Morrone, criminal defense lawyer Mickey Sherman, psychotherapist Lauren Howard, and reporter John Lemley. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. I had a dream, and then I turn on the lights and she's dead on the floor. An aspiring pastor, 29, claims he had too much cough medicine. You heard me right, cough medicine. That made him stab his wife, his young, beautiful wife, 123 times. Whoopsie!

Okay, and now we're learning a new development, that maybe it wasn't just the cough syrup. He was obsessed with American Psycho. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. We've got an all-star lineup to break it down and put it back together today. Dr. William Maroney, renowned medical examiner, famed criminal defense attorney based out of Connecticut, Mickey Sherman, New York psychotherapist Lauren Howard and Crime Stories investigative reporter John Limley. You know, this guy, Matthew Phelps, ends up calling 911 in a very vague explanation of why is his young wife, they're still on a honeymoon for Pete's sake, is in the floor covered in blood.

I want you to hear this. Listen. I think I killed my wife. What do you mean by that? What happened? I had a dream. And then I turn on the lights and she's dead on the floor. How?

How? I have blood all over me and there's a bloody knife on the floor. How? How? I'm I'm I have blood all over me and there's a bloody knife on the bed and I think I did it. Okay give me all right stay on the phone with me I'm getting there and you know that's okay. I can't believe this. I can't believe this. When did you wake up to find this? I don't even know what time it is. All right, stay on the phone with me, sir. I just got to ask you a few questions, okay?

I'm getting some help to you. Are you with the patient now? Yeah, I can see her. Okay. All right, how old is the patient? How old is your wife? She's 29. Okay.

Is she awake at all right now? What makes you think she's dead? Is she awake? She's not breathing. Okay. Oh, my God. Okay, do you think she is beyond any help? I don't know.

I'm too scared to get too close to her. Okay, just stay on the phone with me, sir. I'm here with you. I'm here with you. I'm so scared. All right, I've already sent the paramedics to help you, okay? I'm sending someone to assist you. Just please leave everything as you found it.

Is there anything else we can do for you? So where's the knife right now? It's on the bed. I'm not next to it, so I don't have a weapon on me or anything like that. Okay, when did you wake up? I don't know. I don't know. I took more medicine than I should have. What medicine did you take? I took course eating, cough and cold.

To investigative reporter John Limley. John Limley, in a nutshell, this guy says, he says it right then and there, that he had cough syrup. But what we learn is he didn't have a cold, John Limley. He was drinking the cough syrup in order to get a buzz. Exactly. On this 911 call, he's telling the dispatcher that he had a dream in the middle of the night that he had killed his wife. And he awakes, turns on the lights, and there she is dead on the floor. It's a nightmare come true, in his words. He says, I have blood all over me. There's a bloody knife

on the bed. I think I did it. I can't believe I did this. He tells the dispatcher that he sometimes takes cough medicine when he has a cold or to help him sleep, and that sometimes he does things in his sleep that he doesn't remember. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Does things in his sleep. Right. To Dr. William Maroney, medical examiner joining us and author of a brand-new book available on Amazon.com,

American Narcan, Dr. Mar maroney tell me about the cough syrup that he actually took that basically he's blaming her murder on having too much cough syrup in these cough syrups they have a cough suppressant that's called dextromethorphan okay slow it down right there right there you're throwing all the big words on me like Mickey Sherman likes to do. Choracidin H-Happy B-Brother P-Pennsylvania. Choracidin H-B-P. What does H-B-P stand for? And could you please speak English, Dr. Maroney?

Regular people talk, please. All right. And I'll go real slow. I i'm not deaf i just don't understand go ahead that's like when i talk to my children dr maroney i go john david mommy asked you to do x and he goes mommy just because you're talking slowly it It's not helping. Okay, go ahead. All right. So some of the cough syrups have a decongestant and that decongestant leads to high blood pressure, which is a problem. So Chorazin has this, and it's well known for a decade that they have a formulation that doesn't have those drugs in there that the side effect is high blood pressure.

So if you have high blood pressure, you're supposed to drink, you're supposed to self-administer, you're supposed to use the quercetin HBP. That stands for high blood pressure. But the active ingredient that suppresses your cough is called dextromethorphan. And that last half of that word, that methorphan, it's an opioid like morphine. It's in the morphine family. And if you excessively intake that, it can lead you to the same kind of dissociative high as heroin. And that's why quercetin is abused by teenagers. And it's obvious that this young man also has, at the time, experienced Choracetin high.

Now, if you take one or two teaspoons of it, it's not a problem. But these people mix it with pop and go through half a bottle in 30 minutes. That will lead you to an opioid high similar, very similar, as a heroin high. Hold on. Let's take a moment. Alan, could you let me hear a little bit more of that 911 call? What medicine did you take? I took course eating, cough and cold, course eating, HPT, cough and cold, because I know it can make you feel good.

So a lot of times I can't sleep at night. Okay. So, all right. No. To Mickey Sherman, Connecticut-based criminal defense lawyer, renowned attorney, Mickey Sherman, you know that voluntary use of drugs or alcohol is not a defense. So where can he go, especially in light of the most recent development that he's obsessed with American Psycho?

Take a listen to the trailer. This is what he's obsessed with. I don't think I can control myself. If you stay, Something bad won't happen. I feel lethal, on the verge of frenzy. I think my mask of sanity is about to slip. Do you have any witnesses or fingerprints? Actually, yes.

Hmm. Do you have any witnesses or fingerprints? Actually, yes. Hmm. You're inhuman. I know my, uh, behavior can be erratic sometimes. Hey, Paul! Ah! So, what do you do? I'm into, uh, well, murders and executions mostly.

I have all the characteristics of a human being, but not a single clear, identifiable emotion. I simply am not there. I, uh... I just had to kill a lot of people. That's not helping anything, Mickey. American Psycho, the slice and dice movie. In fact, he's got a photo of Christian Bale, who played the lead role, the killer, covered in blood on his, I guess it's Facebook. That's not helping anything, Mickey. No, clearly this is the beginnings of a

insanity defense. There's nothing left. Oh, Lord. There's nothing left that is in reality any type of valid defense. And when you've got a hundred got 120... What, you mean he was insane after the cough syrup and then he regained his mind after the stabbing? That's right. It was ephemeral. It goes back and forth. Okay, do you really think anybody's going to believe that? I mean, it was cough syrup induced?

I mean, how can that be insanity? Who would believe that the Harvey Milk case would exist where somebody used it as a defense that they had too much sweet cookies and Twinkies. You never know what's going to work. That's the Twinkie defense, guys, where a killer... You're referring to the

death of the mayor of San Francisco, correct? Yes. Where the defense was he had too many Twinkies. Well, that's San Francisco. So that's basically a whole other justice system in California. No offense, California. I love you deeply.

But you are stuck with the Twinkie defense, California. Not the rest of us. You, you. That's on you, California. But what about this? Him posting pictures of himself as American Psycho's main character, Patrick Bateman, to his Instagram, covered in blood, where he describes him as a radical dreamer, writer, and entrepreneur. He's a murderer. He's American Psycho.

And he actually posts himself as American Psycho. Mickey Sherman, he was fully sane. Well, that's for a jury to determine. Also, the fact of 123 stab wounds, that is way beyond conventional murder. It's a passion that just doesn't seem to be equaled or justified by anything in his defense. But I think you will have the psychologist and psychiatrist

addressing the 123 number very significantly. Well, I think you're right about that, Mickey, because if you'll recall the woman that tied the husband up, I guess it was the husband and stabbed him about 100 times and they reenacted it in the courtroom. Of course, she was convicted. But I want to make sure that we all know that Bayer, as in Bayer Aspirin, that creates this chorosedent HBP, says the medicine is not known to cause violent outbursts. You know what, Mickey, since you managed not to give me any real answers but to just muddy the water, which is your job, okay, let me go to a shrink.

Lauren Howard with me, New York psychotherapist. Lauren, welcome to SiriusXM 132 and CrimeOnline.com. Long time no hear. Glad to have you. Good to be here. By the way, loved your show. Watched it the other night, Nancy. Fantastic.

I guess you're talking about A&E where Dan dan abrams and i have a throwdown i am i am grace versus abrams fantastic listen you gotta tune in thursday night a and a 11 p.m where we go at it over it's already set on my pbr over drew peterson's missing quote quote he's missing fourth wife stacy can't wait back to this Phelps. Yes. He then at the scene, let's just follow, Mickey Sherman can throw out a defense. Let me tell you something. I've seen it work too. That's his job. Yeah. Let's follow his line of reasoning down the garden path he's leading us down with temporary insanity. Because when police finally get there, he breaks down sobbing and crying and heaving and holding himself and says his wife did not deserve this.

So suddenly he's snapped back to reality. I mean, is that how insanity works? You're only insane for the moments of the murder? Well, yeah. I mean, yes, insanity can work that way. A schizoaffective disorder would work that way. However, here's, you can, yes, insanity can work that way. A schizoaceptive disorder would work that way. However, here's the bottom line, Nancy. First of all, heroin, morphine, anything that's like it does not create a violent reaction.

Most drug abusers who abuse those particular drugs, I'm not talking about methamphetamines, I'm not talking about cocaine, I'm talking about really more depressive drugs do not create a violent response. So how did this happen? I don't know. It's a black comedy, American Psycho. How deeply he delved into the meaning of the film or the book versus his own pathology, I don't know. But I can tell you this. There is no way that the drug made him do it. His unconscious motivations made him do it. And that's why it occurred. The guy is obviously, I mean, you can defend him, you should defend him.

Everybody deserves a defense. But this guy had a very dark underside that his sleep in combination with the course he'd allowed it to dance. And that's what happened. Let me tell you something. Jackie's waving a note at me furiously, and I'm getting this straight from, what am I reading right now? I've been reading it all. This is from the Charlotte Observer. This guy, the husband, the 29-year-old aspiring pastor,

he went to Bible college. He got his degree, I believe, but somehow ends up not working in his chosen profession, but cutting grass. The wife is the one that had the job and supported the family. That's a whole other can of worms. Not judging. Not judging. This guy, Phelps, 29-year-old Pastor Would-Be, accused of the cough syrup killing was fascinated with the movie american psycho according to police now this guy 29 year old matthew phelps a bible college grad calls 9-1-1 a little after 1 10 a.m to say his wife of less than a year, Lauren Hugelmeyer,

was stabbed dead. That he had taken Coruscant and woke up to find his wife dead and a knife in his bed. Okay. Now we are learning in the last hours that he was obsessed with the

horror film, slasher film, American Psycho, and he talked to friends about what it would be like to kill someone. Now, this is not just made up by me, and it's not made up by the Charlotte Observer. It's according to police search warrants. That puts things in a different light. To John Lindley, Crime Stories investigative reporter, a different light indeed. company. If you look at social media, their Facebook pages, you would never, ever match, in my opinion, the face you see with this loving wife with the voice that you hear on this 911 call. They just don't seem to match up. And we know that she was a wife that really worked hard to support her husband.

She had been a Sunday school teacher as Ph where he is aspiring to be a pastor and aspiring to be this bizarre character from a movie could be one in the same person. You know what's really freaky, Mickey Sherman? As if the stabbing 123 times is not freaky enough. With me, renowned defense attorney, Connecticut-based Mickey Sherman. He practiced all over the country. Mickey, listen to this. Not only is he obsessed with American Psycho, but if you go to his Instagram account, there's numerous photos of the scenes of the movie.

And Phelps, this guy, the Bible student, dressed as the main character. Yeah. So he takes the time to, I don't know what, put his face, inlay his face over Bale's face in the various scenes depicting a serial killer. Who has time for that? That was also from Hannibal. I think I have 5,000, literally 5,000 unanswered emails right now. I'm going to check to get the right number. But who has time to put your face in Christopher Bell's body

in scenes of American Psycho, the serial killer? Who? Somebody who's crazy. Oh, no. Why? What did I expect him to say? Dr. Maroney, okay, look, I know you're not a shrink, okay? You're a medical examiner, but I mean, you're raising children, you're working like crazy, you're writing books,

you're lecturing all over the country. Just, you know, as a juror, who is going to have time? What are they going to think? Who is going to have time to cut your face out and put it in to American Psycho scenes and then post them to Instagram? I know that if my kids were to pick a movie and cut my face, I'd probably end up in Kung Fu Panda. I was about to see if it ain't Disney. I haven't seen it, but go ahead. But the issue here is there is something that's just not copacetic, that somebody who aspired to be a man of God and carry moral and ethical underpinnings that can be so wrapped up in such a warped and twisted and dark piece of literature. There's some mental illness here that goes beyond what we can understand. And I agree. Wait a minute.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You're jumping on the crazy bandwagon? You're on the crazy train with them? You really? Guys, guys, guys. Crazy plus drugs. Crazy plus drugs. Wait a minute.

Whoa, whoa, wait. Let's just be clear about this. Under the law, which is the old McNaughton rule, which has been brought to our country from Great Britain under our common law, which our country was founded on, we use the insanity test of the old McNaughton case, which says that insanity under the law means you did not know right from wrong at the time of the incident. So how, may I ask to all of you, could he stab her 123 times,

then have the wherewithal to make up a lie that he was asleep when it happened, and he woke up to find her body, and it was dark, and he managed to go find the light and turn on the light. And whoa, what a surprise. There's his wife dead. I guess he slept through the 123 stabs and her fighting him, trying to live, running away from him and her being pursued and him holding her down on the ground as he stabbed her dead. He slept through all that, had the wherewithal to lie about it, had the wherewithal to blame cough syrup, had the understanding that she did not deserve this. He knew very well what he had done was wrong. I mean, did I get those facts wrong, John Limley? No, that is the case. And

police have charged Phelps with first degree murder in the case. And as we've been discussing, there's now national attention with experts weighing in on these potential side effects of cold medicine and cough syrup. Interestingly, documents, we don't have a lot of details, but documents filed with the Wake County Magistrate's Office say the couple had been having marital problems before. Oh, my stars. Jackie, who's here in the studio with me and are furiously passing notes about the money. I mean, you know, Lauren, can we just put this out there to women? You know, when you get a man, if you can't help me, just don't hurt me.

You know what? I love you, honey, but bring in the house payment. Okay? Bring it in. Don't lay up on the sofa. Don't go cut the grass. You bring in a check. Okay?

Bring it in. She's not moving. Oh, my God. Okay. stay i'm gonna stay here with you okay just just let's let's at least see if she's breathing okay all right just can you see her from where you're at yeah it's so bad tell investigators, and I'm quoting from the police affidavits, the couple would, quote, would argue frequently and had been disagreeing about finances

according to police. Matthew Phelps, I got to quit calling him Michael Phelps, the Olympian, because I don't think he's going to like that very much. Let me make it clear. There's no relation. Matthew Phelpselps quote was spending

more money than the couple made follow the money and lauren the wife who had a second second job trying to sell candles and home smell goods scents online on Facebook. Jackie, look up the name of her business that she was like a sales rep, like Tupperware. She would sell... Scentsy. Scentsy, yes. Thank you. Who said that? John Limley?

It is indeed. So Lauren was now working a second job. I remember it's bringing back the days I had three jobs, one during the day and two at night. Lauren Phelps had recently taken drastic steps to limit her husband's spending and was, quote, preparing to end the relationship. Now, Lauren Howard, New York psychotherapist, before you jump off about insanity, just tell me this is a yes or no. I now have you on cross exam, Lauren. Yes. Isn't it true that when women have been abused, they are more likely to be killed when they are either pregnant or try to leave the relationship? Absolutely. Absolutely.

There's no question about it. And this, you know, this whole cough syrup thing just angers me because all of a sudden, if someone is drunk and they commit a murder of 123 stabbings, they get off for insanity because they're under the influence? I don't think so. You have to have the impulse. And perhaps the impulse is suppressed when you're not under the influence. But once you are, it's released. Your id is released.

This is Mickey. Can I tell you what's missing? I think I hear Mickey Sherman jumping in. Go ahead, Mick. You know what's missing? Here's what they have to find. They have to find the amber fry in this case. Oh, Lord.

You mean another woman isn't American Psycho with his face? Find the amber fry. That's what I said in the Peterson trial before they ever found her. You did. He did say that. And they will find her. He did say there's got to be a woman out there. Why do they have to look that far?

Why do they have to look that far? Why do we have to have another woman? The guy stabbed her 123 times. Thank you, Lauren. If he wanted to get rid of her, if that was the intention, he could have done it much more easily and with less hysteria and drama. What about a divorce? I mean, am I the crazy one here? But what about a divorce?

Where is he spending all the money? And where did the knife come from? What about all the money? Spending all the money? Yeah, where is the money going? Hold on, guys. Before we get too crazy here listen to this detectives obtain a total of seven search warrants to see cell phones information from their facebook accounts the

townhouse they shared in their vehicles a ford fusion and a mitsubishi outlander investigators use these warrants to seize electrical devices handwritten documents and two books, Party Games. I don't know what Party Games is. Jack, can you Google it? And American supernatural tales from the home. Handwritten notes and a diary were seized from the vehicles. Now, the investigators found blood on Phelps when they got to the couple's home and the detectives reported finding evidence suggesting, get ready, wait for it. He cleaned himself up before calling 911. Major, major problem for the defense. Okay, I heard Lauren snort first, so I'm going to go to her.

Lauren, the significance of evidence of a cleanup. I mean, there's no question he knew what he had done. He was aware of it. He was aware it was wrong. I mean, he said it on the phone on the 911 call. He said, I think I did this. And so the cough syrup is just, you know, it's an excuse, but it's not, it doesn't get him off the hook. Like, you know, listen, we've seen too many of these trials

go sideways and what seems so clear not leading to a conviction. But I cannot imagine any jury on the planet letting this guy off. Okay, Mickey Sherman, I just had to let her in before you because I know I wanted to give you at least 30 seconds to spin the cleanup. The cleanup he did before the police got there. Before he called 911, he had tried to clean up the scene. Mick? Maybe he's just a fastidious person. Thank you. I should have seen that one coming.

To Dr. William Maroney, medical examiner extraordinaire. Dr. Maroney, author of a brand-new book, American Narcan, which is awesome. You can find it on Amazon to fight our war on opioid addiction in the U.S. Dr. Maroney, what does it mean when police or crime scene techs, quote, find evidence of a cleanup on a scene like this? What are they talking about? Break it down. Well, the first thing is the primary crime scene will have a large amount of blood with that many stab wounds. So some of the blood has either been moved, removed, or cleaned up, and he personally has been cleaned up. When you look at that amount of blood, the body just keeps pumping it out and pumping it out.

It looks drastic. If you can reduce the amount of blood that they find in the pictures that are taken that will be used against him later, people will say, well, you know, he killed her, but it didn't look that bad. He's trying to make it not look bad. He is guilty of a heinous crime. I don't blame it on the officer. I just put out there that these chemicals, these drugs can make you do things, including get sleepy, but dissociative and reduced impulses, when he has to clean up a crime scene, that shows he was competent. It shows he understood that he needed to clean up. So the drugs really didn't affect him that bad. Dr. Maroney, for instance, if you go in there, if crime scene techs, CSI, goes in with, let's just say, luminol, and there had been a cleanup, what would the— of course there's blood all over her. There's blood on the sheet.

She's been stabbed 123 times. But explain to me forensically how they can tell blood from the murder, how they could differentiate that from clean up. How, what's the difference? Well, he's trying to take blood off of walls that's been splattered. You can't see it unless you come back with ultraviolet light luminol. They'll check the washer and dryer and they'll find towels soaked in blood, if there's blood splatter on furniture, if there's blood splatter on appliances, and the weapon, we haven't really talked about the weapon except the number of times she was stabbed,

cleaning the weapon and trying to maybe clean up his fingerprints, not just the blood. So there's a number of things, reducing the amount of blood that you can see on the wall, but later they can take a luminol and test spots in the carpet, spots in the floor, spots on the wall. Blood splatter is also an important part of the crime scene, and he'll try to reduce the amount of splatter this is how i put it in regular people talk thank you dr maroney i think i got what you said but for instance this weekend uh it's easter weekend i was with my mom at her home and i saw where she had spilled coffee down a windowsill where she had turned the corner and some of the coffee had

splashed onto the window sill and then it went down the wall so I got some kind of cleaner and I squirted it and wiped it all off with a paper towel it was everywhere if that had been blood and you went in with luminon it shows up like um black light you say black light poster that's what it looks like you would see white marks you would see horizontal marks that i left behind which are naked which are invisible to the naked eye but under luminol you would see that pattern going back and forth horizontally where I wiped it with a paper towel. With the lights on and no luminol, you wouldn't see a thing. But with the luminol on, which makes blood show up like a black light poster, you would see that pattern.

As opposed to blood spatter, S-P-A-T-T-E-R, blood spatter, which comes from the stabbing, like pinpoint marks of blood spatter everywhere. Then there's, quote, throwback. When you stab somebody and then you bring the knife back up into the air, blood throws back off the knife. That gives you a different blood pattern. Then there's dripping. For instance, think of Jody Arias and Travis Alexander. As he was dying, he looked in the mirror and blood dripped off of his face and there was a blood drop, several drops. They're perfectly round like little bitty pools of blood. there was a blood drop several drops they're perfectly round like little bitty

pools of blood that's a blood drop blood spatter throwback clean up they all look very very drastically different upon close inspection i think i said that correctly. Mickey Sherman, did that make sense? It does, but so often, I'm not saying it's totally junk science, but even the best of the pathologists and the forensic people sometimes just kind of shave the edges of the jigsaw puzzle to make it all fit. So I'm not the biggest proponent. Can we talk about the money? John Limley, Crime Stories investigative reporter. What can you tell me about the money?

What was he spending money on? Oh, by the way, Jackie managed to pull up, what is that, Party Games? Is that the name of it? It's a horror book or series by Stein. Now, I think it's R.L. Stein um you probably all saw the movie with one of my favorite actors jack black awesome i fell in love with black during nacho libre uh but he um and

stein they're all horror books typically started off for children scary stories for children then it turned into like scary stories for tweens. Then they got scarier and scarier. This is a scary Ariel Stein story that he had. But I'm more concerned about his face being stuck into American psycho scenes about a serial killer. But John Lamley, can we get back to the money? Right. Those search warrants you mentioned earlier, where they were looking into

these possible money problems. Well, those newly released documents give us a little glimpse inside Lauren Phelps' mind in the weeks leading up to her murder. You also mentioned those devices that were seized. Those included cell phones, and they were able to read text messages where Lauren was communicating with family and friends. And in one text message, she said she was tired of arguing every single day with Matthew and that she, quote, may be done with the relationship in no small part because of this money that was just disappearing. Who was it that said that she was selling Scentsy? What is Scentsy? Scentsy is simply a site where you can buy all sorts of scented products,

like the name implies, whether it's those oil infusers, candles, just different, as my grandmother would say, smell goods for the house. John Limley, you seem to know a lot about oil infusing and potpourri. I'm not going to go there with you. I will tell you that because of her sensitive nose, when Jackie comes over to visit, I have to hide all of that. Jackie, that's right. Jackie, you cause a lot of problems today. So what about that, Lauren Howard? The wife works all day. I think she was an accountant she went to school for that she is an accountant she has a day job and at night the night before she died she was posting Facebook videos trying to get people to buy Scentsy I'm looking at it right right now it's um room sprays

a scent circle I don't know what that is a scentsy bar oh accidentally in love room spray um what else am i needing all you need is love room spray i don't know what a scent circle is but he's right john lindley's right um apricot vanilla blue hyacinth caramel sugar cone room spray it just goes on and on and on so he's he's right right so she works all day and then comes home and tries to sell scentsy on facebook while her husband's laid up on the sofa eating chips right right he had a hard day mowing the grass didn't my husband have a hard day mowing the grass? I don't know. Did he work?

Didn't he have a hard day mowing the grass? I don't know. Let me find that out. Hold on, John. How often did he landscape? You know, I have not come across a lot of details from that, but it was keeping him busy at least a couple of days a week while he was also studying for the pastorate. Okay. With that in mind, Lauren Howard, go ahead.

Nancy, I mean, we're not here to judge who was working harder. I am. We know. We know. It doesn't matter. We know that she was dissatisfied with the relationship. This isn't a divorce court where we have to decide whether or not she was right to be dissatisfied with the marriage.

She was dissatisfied with the marriage. She had articulated that to friends and family. Clearly, he knew that. This is all about what's going on under the surface for him, what his concerns are, what his fears, what his need for survival is about. And so his impulses, which are hidden beneath sobriety, if you will, get released by him having a mind-altering substance in him. His choice, by the way, he's the one who took the Clostridium and took too much of the Clostridium, which he also admits. And Chorazin is being abused by teenagers. It's a rampant problem because he's not a teen. He's pushing 30. He's got a Bible college degree.

He hasn't gotten a job or a church. He purposely overused Chorazin. Yeah, he says that actually on the call. So, Dr. William Maroney, you're raising a bunch of children just like me and working. I can just tell you this. I'm not sure what Lauren and and mickey sherman are talking about about the hard day cutting grass but i can tell you this much if i am going to work two or three jobs and raise the children when i get up and go and put my feet on the ground and start working at 5 30 in the morning my husband god bless him had better be up working too. I am not working two or three jobs for him to sit on the sofa and watch old movies.

That's not happening. Luckily, I hit pay dirt and got somebody that works like a demon. So I'm happy, very happy that he has the same work ethic as me. But Dr. Maroney, how would your wife feel? Let's just make this personal. If she's out working like a dog and you're kicked back having your morning coffee when she heads out the door to work, that's not a good look, Dr. Maroney. She'd make it really clear and call me a bum because she's that clear and transparent.

And there is no other way you can describe a man married to a hardworking woman that's a significant meal ticket. He should be the provider and the protector. He's missing all these good Old Testament messages. He's really conflicted. I don't see him making any direction to And then on top of that, you throw in substance abuse in somebody that wants to be a pastor. He needs recovery. He needs sobriety. And someone that actually says Dr. Maroney to his friends, gee, I wonder what it would be like to murder somebody. Before I get to that fun fact, Lauren Howard, New York psychotherapist. Lauren, see, I'm basing how I think things should be. This is not for everybody, but it's for me because I saw my dad getting up,

doing whatever job the railroad gave him to do, working his whole life, 43 plus years on the railroad, and never complaining, no matter what job they gave him. Same thing for my mom. She was the same way. So I see, I think that's how it should be. And I don't expect everybody to share my view. Well, I agree with you. I agree with you. But you know what? Not every lazy, couch-lying, non-work ethic husband stabs his wife 123 times. You know, so the ethics of his behavior become irrelevant in the context

of, is this guy guilty of a heinous, heinous crime? Which, by the way, where did the knife come from, which would kind of prove premeditation if he had it in his night table drawer. I mean, where is this knife he used to stab her 123 times? Was that easily accessible? Did he get out of bed and go into the kitchen and get it? Was it a hunting knife? Was it a kitchen knife? Does anybody know?

I mean, that's... Let me find out. John Limley with me, Crime Stories investigative reporter. Where was the knife? Where did it come from? And what happened to it? That information seems to be withheld. We just know that there was a bloody knife on the bed. Actually, it was on the floor by the time investigator police arrived. One interesting thing on the going back to sort of his sort of prophesying his actions to come is his Instagram page. He had this alter ego that was more like the American psycho character on Instagram. And in one photo on that page, he quoted the band Korn stating, I can't get out of bed. There is evil in my head. Just let me be. He also had a Tumblr page, and he wrote about his strange sleeping patterns. In fact, here's a direct

quote from Tumblr. Ever since I was little, I've had some strong activity with my dreams. Nightmares, night terrors, sleepwalking, hallucinations, controlled dreams have all filled my life so far. I think that was a real catch. Yeah. He's really sort of predicting, so to speak, what's to come. Just look at her right now. Tell me what you see. Is she with her chest moving?

Is she breathing? Anything at all? No, she's not moving at all. Oh my God. I hope you didn't deserve this. The water's dried on me. It's dried? I hope you didn't deserve this. The blood is dried on me. It's dried?

The blood's not wet on me. The blood is dry. Okay. I don't know what I... Oh, my God. All right, well, we're going to at least try to help her, okay? All right, just give me this... Oh, my God. help her, okay? All right, just give me this. Oh, my God. I mean, I can see her, but oh, my God.

Mickey Sherman, renowned criminal defense attorney based out of Connecticut. Mickey, what does it mean to you? Because I think you and I have the same thought on this, that 44 of the wounds he inflicted upon his young wife were around the face and neck. 44 stab wounds around the face and neck. A profiler would have a ball with that fact. And clearly, as I said, this was a crime of passion. And that's why you have such an egregious set of injuries uh which which you we've seen before the woman who drowned her five kids in texas are you talking about um andrea yates drowned her children yes yes do you if you recall there's there's a woman who serially one by one drowned her five little kids in the bathroom.

Yet she was not found guilty, but not guilty by reason of insanity on her first trial. So as I say, there's no slam dunks in the insanity world. Yeah, I hear you. I think that the jury is going to view a mother

whose husband had her living in a school bus at one point and of five children with all these mental issues she had in the past. I think they're going to find him, they're going to treat this guy, Matthew Phelps, differently. I'm curious about the postings that Limley and Lauren Howard were talking about, about his sleep disorders, how close to the murder they were, because if they were very close, and he's talking about his dream activity, was he pre-planning the murder?

Because that night, John Limley, Crime Stories investigative reporter, didn't he say, that i dreamed it yes he told the 9-1-1 dispatcher that he had this odd dream that he had killed his wife and that he quote well paraphrasing here he awoke to find that that dream was true long story short we are just learning from search warrants that he had an obsession with American psycho to the point that he would put his own face into movie scenes where the serial killer was depicted and talked to friends about what it would be like, the sensation of murdering someone. The case goes on, and all we can do for Lauren now is seek justice. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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