Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Could a Single Hair Bolster Case? Idaho Student Murders

Episode Date: January 9, 2023

What more evidence have the police collected from the Idaho home where four students were murdered that hasn't been released? Mattresses have been removed from the home, and police are continuing to track down the digital timeline of Bryan Kohberger's whereabouts at the time of the murders.  Phone pings show that Kohberger was in the area of the home at least 12 times in the weeks before the murders, yet his phone was turned off during the suspected murder window. It was turned back on afterward.  The Idaho State Lab is testing trash recovered from the Pennsylvania home of Kohberger's family. The lab "reported that a DNA profile obtained from the trash" matched a tan leather knife sheath found "laying on the bed" of one of the victims.  Forensic experts will be looking at evidence collected at the scene for more DNA matches.  Joining Nancy Grace today:  Dale Carson - High Profile Attorney (Jacksonville), Former FBI Agent, Former Police Officer (Miami-Dade County), Author: "Arrest-Proof Yourself Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst (Beverly Hills, CA); New Netflix show: 'Bling Empire' (Beverly Hills)  Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author of 'Blood Beneath My Feet' and host of "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan"  Chris McDonough - Director At the Cold Case Foundation & Former Homicide Detective; Worked over 300 homicides in a 25-year career; Host of YouTube channel, "The Interview Room" CeCe Moore - Chief Genetic Genealogist, Parabon NanoLabs, Inc.   Laura Ingle-Senior Correspondent, Fox News Channel; Twitter: @laurraingle, Instagram:@lauraingletv  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Dead, the killer, and the Idaho student murders actually go online and brag? Now that that probable cause affidavit has established that the alleged killer, Brian Koberger, had stalked out the murder house at least, and I emphasize at least, 12 times before the murder, dating all the way back to June.

Was that before he even started school in his PhD program? He was already staking them out? We know he had picked his victims by then, based on what cops are saying, but why them? What was the connection? As the desperate search for the murder weapon goes on,

we are waiting, holding our breaths, for the next bombshell to drop. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. Who is this guy? Take a listen to our friends KXLY. The last time the Arndt's family saw him was when Kohlberger was working as a security guard at a local school a couple years back. When we talked to him there, everything seemed, you know, normal. He was polite and everything. It was very, very weird to hear this stuff. Washington State University confirms he was a Ph.D. student at the time of the alleged murder.

And Tom adds he was smart. Very intelligent and then you know he would explain things in like a really odd way that had to be really sophisticated way of explaining stuff. There is still so much more to explain and understand in this investigation. It's unsettling for Tom to think about how this person, who they knew for years, could have killed these four students. Just insane. You know, why is it that everyone talks about how normal the guy was way back when? You know, they said that about BTK. We find out that Bundy charmed people.

Very charming. Scott Peterson seemed like the all-American guy, didn't he? We're hearing the same thing now, but can that possibly be true? With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now, but first, I want to go out to Fox Senior Correspondent, Laura Engel. Laura, thank you for being with us. You know, I was thinking about it before we took to the air. If he had started staking out the four students back in June, his classes at the PhD program, had they even started?

Yeah, you know, he was in that area as far as when we look at the records of when he moved there, when the car was registered, how it was registered. It appears as though he moved there, when the car was registered, how it was registered. It appears as though he was there. And the other thing about that key piece that we heard on page four of the probable cause affidavit, not to jump ahead, but the idea that one of the surviving roommates heard somebody in the house say, it's okay, I'm going to help you. I just want to remind us of a story that we heard very early on when Brian Koberger was first arrested and we didn't have a name. And when we heard that name, Brian Koberger, everybody pulled up this old newspaper article from Pennsylvania when he was a part-time security guard at a school district

and how was he was a part of the super heroic saving of a woman who had an asthma attack and he and another school guard you know got down on the ground and helped her and and they said Brian helped to save her life and I just wanted to draw that connection of just, I don't know. I don't know if he said those words, if that was a recording of some kind on her TikTok. But it was just, I thought, you know, an interesting connection that there is a record of him being on the ground trying to help a woman, running to get an AED to save a woman's life. So I know that we had talked a little bit about that on previous shows, but it is certainly eerie.

Yeah, you know what, Laura Engel, it really is because you see the dichotomy of someone that could have been really a hero in this world and has done the exact opposite and turned into the devil. And of course, let me just say again before I am pilloried online, everyone is presumed innocent until they're proven guilty and that goes for brian coberger as well you know dr bethany marshall joining us a high profile psychoanalyst joining us out of beverly hills at dr bethany marshall md.com dr bethany that's really interesting what lauren engel told us how he had gone so far as to save someone's life, being written up and lauded for it, and then somehow took a really dark turn. But my initial reaction was it's a show. There's a whole drama going on.

It's Koberger's world, and we're all just living in it. Nancy, think about one of the associated features of sociopathy, which is... Which what you just said means nothing to me. I don't even know what you're said means nothing to me i don't even know what you're talking about the what one of the what of the what so sociopaths um and serial killers are always sociopaths and if brian kirk coberger did this i we're going to guess that this is a first um killing in what was intended to be a long life of serial killing. Okay, so let's hold that in our minds that he is possibly a serial killer and he got caught on his first offense.

So what do we know about men like this? And yes, they're mostly men. They are grandiose. They are glib. They are charming. But it's a thin veneer. It's a superficial veneer of grandiosity, meaning that they want to be the center of attention. They want to be the star. They want everybody to look up to them. They want to feel like they are saving the world,

but when I say it's a thin veneer, they'll only act this way until you disagree with them. And then the veneer cracks and they become vicious, they become mean, and they go on the attack. So think about the little boy he saved with the asthma attack. I can imagine the parents calling him, asking him over to dinner, him getting cards, you know, maybe asked to go on a local TV show. I'm just kind of making this up. And that he revels in the glory of being so important. But what if one reporter or a parent says, yeah, but you know what, you cracked the boy's ribs when you were doing CPR, or, you know, I think you should have called 911 instead of trying to save the boy yourself. Then he would have turned on them.

Well, I'm also wondering if that has anything to do with the way he picked his victims. Straight after Chris McDonough joining me, director at the Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective Chris, who I found, by the way, on his YouTube channel, The Interview Room. Chris, I'm jumping off of what Dr. Bethany just said, and then I'm going to get back into what everybody wants to hear about Joe Scott, C.C. Moore, Dale Carson, the nuts and bolts of how this case is going to be proven or how it can be dismantled by a savvy defense attorney. And yes, it can be done. Chris McDonough, jumping off what Dr. Bethany just said, I've been asked over and over and over, what's the motive? Number one, state doesn't have to prove motive. Okay, we're not clairvoyant. We don't know what's going on

in his head. Number two, it does help a jury to have a motive. So the killings make sense to them. Now, motive. Bethany was describing a scenario where someone who was a hero could quickly make an about face. We know, Chris McDonough, that there have been occasions where Kober, I could go to pretty much any bar or restaurant and have any lady I want. He actually said that. Okay, let that sink in for just a moment. Do you think there's a possibility, you know, he was doing all this study with felons, violent felons, about how did you pick your victims?

How did you approach your victims? How did you approach your victims? And a lot more that's even creepier. Do you think somehow he had been at a bar or a restaurant and one of these young girls had ignored him or didn't respond to his advances? And that is how he started following them because he would actually ask women at bars. I mean, Jack and Sid, how much would this creep you out if a guy came up and said, what's your address? I would run for the hills if I had seen a monster. I mean, for sure.

No question about that. I mean, how about, hey, can I buy you a Diet Coke? I don't know. Something like that. Every time I throw a line to one of the twins to use on their love objects, they tell me how horrible they are. I don't know what a good pickup line would be. I suggested to one of the twins to say, how was your New Year? And they doubled over laughing.

They could never say how was your New Year to somebody. So I'm not good at that. So Chris McDonough, what about it? You know, Nancy, the fact that it's not an obvious motive that's right on the surface here, and the fact that we talked about this on your show earlier, where he treated this killing as almost as if it was an event, his life. One of his creepy experiments. Yes.

Oh, Chris, wait, you just gave me a thought. Hold on. Yeah. You know how he would ask all the violent felons, murderers, rapists, child rapists. What was going through your mind? How did you feel during the murder or during the rape? I wonder if he was doing this to see how it really did feel, what it was really like. I mean, this whole thing was over, and I'm sure Joe Scott and Dale Carson are going to have something to say about this,

over in 16 minutes, based on the timing, when he pulled up and when he left. It was almost clinical clinical in and out. There was no rape. There was no theft. He just went in, did the killing and left Chris McDonough. How's that? Yeah.

And, and he, and he presented himself in such a cool headed chameleon type of of way evident of the fact that we have you know this information allegedly that he says i'm here to help you so it this guy allegedly if he is the suspect which you know he's been arrested he is that guy that if of somebody and the doc can keep me honest here, if somebody pushes him away, he's going to hold a grudge for quite some time. So in my mind, my question has been, how long has he been holding this grudge? And that those women, were they the receivers of that anger?

Good, good thought. And I want to follow up with Laura Engel, Laura Engel, senior correspondent, Fox news. Laura, you were so incredible on Fox news last night. I just,

every time you start talking, it completely changes the course of my questioning. I hope you know that, which is a good thing because it's always something new that you're going to say. I want to follow up on what Chris said. And guys, remember how many times do I have to tell you this, Dale Carson and Joe Scott Morgan and CeCe Moore?

Brilliant genetic genealogists, by the way. We're not having tea at Highgrove with King Charles and Camilla, okay? Jump in. Well, there's no question he had a relationship with those women. Wait, don't jump in quite yet. Come on. I'm not in that relationship. Wait, there's no question he had a relationship with those women. Wait, don't jump in quite yet. Come on. I'm not in a relationship.

Wait, wait, wait. Laura, Laura, you're going to like this, Dale. You're going to like this. Okay, if he had met them, all right, at some point, you know, getting a coffee and saying, hey, do you live around here? And she goes, well, I'm not going to say it because that's a curse word. I gave up cursing. Get lost.

I'll put it in a nice way. He was staking them out in June, Laura. So were the girls already there? Did they live there over the summer? That's a great question. I think that we assume that some of them did, but I don't know if we have those records that shows that, but you're right. The, the cell phone tower information about how many times he had been back.

But I also want to fast, I also want to fast forward really quick because I thought about this last night. Oh, here she goes. Train out of control. You know how we've been watching how, you know, there was a, there's a direct line of path from his apartment in pullman to the apartment in or to the rental home in moscow idaho and then he takes this crazy path home where it goes down and around and he's obviously trying to you know take a different route but But we've all, I think, been on the same panel talking about Fotis Doulos.

It was a case that we covered where a estranged husband murdered his wife of five children and mother of five children. And all along the way, he was dumping items. So where are the bloody clothes, the shoes, the mask, obviously the knife, anything that he, the duffel bag that he might've brought to change into clothes, anything of that sort. I'm curious now in the forward part of the investigation of, you know, were there any cameras that picked him up going somewhere? Where did he dump those things i know that we've been talking about how he dumped some garbage once he got to pennsylvania but did he do anything in that long roundabout way

from the victim's residence back to pullman because he took that if you look at the map it's in the affidavit that is why i would would argue Laura Ingalls is a better reporter on her sickbed than guys. Just so you know, she's had COVID and you know more facts. And I don't mean institutional facts about this case that we've learned from the beginning. I mean, like what's happening right now. That's an incredible thought. OK, this means something, Dale Carson, because I'm getting chills.

Look, the knife is not all that important. Can I just introduce you, Dale Carson, trial lawyer out of Jacksonville. I'm going to get it in. And this is a good part. Former FBI and former cop in Miami. Date at

DaleCarsonL law.com. Okay. Go Dale. You got an eyewitness of him being in the property. You have his DNA. You have a number of slaughtered victims. Having a knife isn't like trying to find a gun where you can connect the bullet through case markings to the actual firearm.

You find the defendant's possession. This is a knife. It can't be exactly, and Joe can correct me on this, it can't be exactly determined that that was the knife unless there's DNA on it later. You're absolutely right. And I'll tell you why, Joe Carson, and I've had it out with so many forensic dentists on this exact point uh let's do what you just said uh joseph scott morgan joining me professor of forensics jacksonville

state university host of a new hit series body bags with joe scott morgan on iheart just got same theory applies to forensic dentistry as it does with this knife flesh is flexible and you can't really it's like trying to get a teeth mark in jello ain't gonna happen i mean unless you've got some really crazy set of teeth then occasionally i've seen it be very convincing but still still you can't one of the problems we're not going to go down this path too far. Says you. I'll drive this train wherever I want to, young man. But go ahead. I'm getting out of the car.

Somebody's getting sassy, Jackie. You can't quantify bite marks. That's one of the problems in forensics. Now, why do you say it like that when I said it was like biting into jello? But go ahead, professor. Well, thank you. You can't quantify it. And the same applies to a knife wound. You can examine it, you can compare it, and you can say it's close too. Here's one thing that I find very interesting and something that we do in the morgue that people might not be aware of.

Even with knife wounds, prior to the things that we'll do are full body x-rays. And this is kind of key here because this knife was used allegedly multiple times, right? So every time you're striking with this knife, there is a potential that the structural integrity of the knife is being compromised. It's wearing down. And depending upon how well the blade is made, it can chip. And one of the things we look for in these x-rays that we do are little metal fragments. Now, you can't do it ballistically. But what you can do, and this is really cool, is that if you can recover one of those chips, you can do a metallurgical analysis on that chip. And what that means is the chemistry behind the creation of that blade is unique to that particular manufacturer.

Okay, wait. Let me just understand what you're saying. Are you saying a knife, use of a knife in a murder can use tiny microscopic lead, excuse me, tiny microscopic pieces of metal in the wound yes it can have you ever seen that happen yes i have how often have you seen that happen infrequently you mean rarely okay because joe scott i i hear what you're saying and i do think it can happen and as you were saying the the worse the quality of the knife, the more likely it will happen. I've never had a case where a knife left any type of metallurgy behind in a wound, but I do see how theoretically it can happen. Yeah, tips of knives break off very frequently.

A tip breaks off, yeah, but I don't know that it's left in the wound. Sure it is. Yeah. Oh, yeah, it is. It's left in bone. Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point. Yeah, it Oh, yeah, it is. It's left in bone. Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point. Yeah, it happens. It happens with great, great frequency.

So back to what Laura Engel brought up. Where in the hay is the murder weapon? A Fox Nation exclusive. An international pop star stripped of human rights. How does that happen? Easier than you think. Join us for a deep dive into Britney Spears' conservatorship. Trapped, streaming now on Fox Nation. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Before I lose this guest, I'm going to circle back to the murder weapon.

I've just got to go to Chief Genetic Genealogist, Piramban Nano Labs, CeCe Moore. Again, you know what? Dummy down for me. I'm just a JD. I'm not a genetic genealogist.

And you're bringing back memories, happy memories for me, sad memories for medical examiners and crime lab personnel to go through every single line of their report and make them speak English that I can understand as a Shakespearean English major, CC. They need more DNA. Now, do I think the case is strong? Yes, I do. I think the case is incredibly strong. But that's it. I can just see a Johnny Cochran move. God rest his soul. He was my co-anchor at Court TV, Cochran and Grace. I can see somebody like him coming in and going, what? Out of a bloodbath

like this? And you're telling me the only DNA linking back to the defendant is a little epithelial skin cells on the snap, on the knife hilt? Really? And you're going to send my guy to the death penalty over that? Oh, H-E-L-L-N-O. That is what is going to happen. I'm telling you. I'm telling you right now. Unless somehow they can find some other DNA. Yeah, I agree with you, Nancy. They could argue that someone else transported that knife sheath to the crime scene. Or they could argue this, Cece. Oh, Lord, I don't want to give them any ideas. What if they argued, yeah, he went to a knife and gun show, and he looked at a lot of knives,

and he opened them up and looked at them and snapped them back and put them back on the display. Then, of course, they'd have to dig up a knife and gun show that was in that area. But that said, there's a million ways they could counter that one little bit of DNA. For sure. So I think we know based on the eyewitness DM that he was not totally covered up. She was able to see his eyebrows. And we are told that he was

wearing a mask that covered his mouth and his nose. Well, that sounds like the kind of masks we've been wearing with COVID for the last three years. And it also might explain, by the way, why she wasn't thinking this was somebody who had done something terrible in the house. You know, those kids are used to seeing people wear masks. It's been really normalized over the last three years. And these are young kids. So anyway, was his hair covered? He's got a full head of hair. Did that guy walk in there not fully suited up? If so, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if there is some hair evidence left at that scene. You know what, Cece Moore, I'm going to charge you for all the paper that I use. You would laugh if you could

see all the notes I take furiously whenever you start talking. I'm running out. I'm using the back pages of things the twins did in school in the fifth grade, for Pete's sake. That is so smart. Okay, we don't know anything about his head being covered. Do we, Laura Engel? I have not heard anything about the head being covered. And one of the questions I had for the family, the attorney of the Gonsalves family, who I spoke to Sunday, I asked, you know, have you talked to DM? Have you talked to Dylan? They said that they have spoken to her, but they wouldn't tell me what that conversation was for obvious reasons, for personal reasons. But, you know, we don't know what more she said about what she thought. When I first heard of

the story, didn't we all sort of think that whoever did this must have been dressed like a ninja and maybe even wearing goggles for the sake of not leaving your DNA. But to your point, there just has to be more. The bed sheets, the comforter, the staircase, the door handle. I'm thinking about hair, and I've got to ask Jackie, why are you holding up a son that says ski mask? Didn't she say he had a ski mask? Nobody ever said he wore a ski mask. He had a mask covering his nose and mouth.

I haven't heard anything about ski masks. That's how facts get totally distorted. Has anybody said ski masks besides Jackie sitting right there who just clicked it up in her head? No, no, I heard. You've had way too many Dunkin' Donuts cups of coffee, Jackie. What, Dale? Ski mask? And I will tell you, it's in car as joe morgan will tell you

that's where the evidence is and as soon as they find one of the victims blood in that car that's what they need that is what they need yes hey cc more i got off track uh with jackie's ski mask allegation what were you saying can i go back to the hair? Yes. So the hair, you know, you used to not be able to get DNA from rootless hair. But now we can thanks to the brilliant Dr. Ed Green from Santa Cruz. And I've helped on two cases recently, where all we had was a tiny piece of rootless hair. You mean mitochondrial DNA? Won't that work? Mitochondrial, yes, but you can actually now get autosomal DNA. Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. What did you just call it? What did you call it? Autosomal DNA. That's the type of DNA. Autosomal? Yes. I'm going to throw that at Joe Scott and see if I can stuff him. Autosomal. He's probably Googling it right now.

Go ahead. It's the type of DNA you get from both sides of your family, from all of your grandparents, great grandparents. It's much more unique than mitochondrial DNA. Ah, okay. And you're telling me I could get autosomal DNA from a hair without a nucleus. And it's more exact than just mitochondrial DNA, which you can get from a hair without a nucleus that only goes to your mother, correct? Right. Mitochondrial DNA, there can be thousands of people, tens of thousands of people who have the exact same signature,

but no one's going to have your exact same autosomal DNA signature except for a twin. That's why I call her brilliant. Hey, Joe Scott, are you through Googling autosomal yet? Yes, I am. Okay. Guys, I'm just pulling Joe Scott's leg. He's an incredible friends professor at Jacksonville State. Joe Scott, can we just, and everybody jump in, okay? You know, you sure did pipe down, Chris McDonough. You know. I've got some ideas. I've got some ideas, Nancy. I'm waiting. All right, Joe Scott, if he could just drop one hair.

One hair. Did you hear what CeCe Moore said? If we could just find one hair and all that mess of a crime scene. One hair or, as Dale Carson pointed out, one speck of blood in that Elantra. Just got, how are we going to do this? Look to the hands. Look to the hands, Nancy, because this is key. We've made a big deal over the last few weeks

about the examination of these victims' hands at the morgue. Remember, they bagged the hands, which is something that we normally do, all right? But when this occurs, when this occurs and you have individuals that are fighting back, remember, we've got documented defense wounds. They might be grabbing at the head. And if they do, and plus if there is blood on the victim's hands and everybody knows how tacky blood is and sticky, it's amazing.

It's amazing what you will find contained not just beneath the fingernails and those are you know you can really harvest a lot out of those but also just stuck to the palms of the hands and the backs of the hands they very well one of these kids very well may have pulled out uh a root uh a hair with a root intact as well. You know, to Cece's point about the autosomal DNA, yeah, I mean, and some of this hair might be fractured. You never know. But that's why they have gone over these bodies with a fine-tooth comb, Nancy, and they have recovered every bit of trace evidence.

I'm hoping they have at the morgue. And they applied a team to this that did nothing but this. The clothes of the kids were taken care of very well. They were sent to the crime lab. Everything was documented. And we could spend two shows just talking about the examination that they're going to do on these clothing alone for trace evidence and extracting anything they can that might be DNA rich. Okay. I want to hear what Chris McDonough's idea is.

So, Nancy, on the sheath, I want to go what Chris McDonough's idea is. So Nancy, on the sheath, I want to go back to the sheath for a moment if we can. Okay, it's laying next to one of the victims. Yep, by her leg. You notice there's no conversation in the affidavit. I've had many judges ask me, is there anything else belonging to anybody else on this item, i.e. cross, you know, blood, etc., etc.? No, Your Honor, it looks like it's a single source DNA. So here's my thought. That scene was a horror house. Why is there not blood on this sheet and i would submit to you if it was that would have been put into the affidavit and that's why okay hold on hold on hold on

chris mcdonough say that again very slowly sure so the sheath where we we know there's single source DNA on the snap from a male. And then they've now matched that, you know, through family members. But what we're not hearing is cross, you know, contamination from the scene itself, i.e. if he drops this and he's stabbing there's blood going everywhere and i would submit to you if it ends up right next to that victim there is blood on that sheet but we're not hearing about that so my thinking is did this guy bring this post homicide and place it there as part of a staging activity. No, he didn't have time. He didn't have time to do that. Guys.

Okay, okay. No, no, no. Chris McDonough, I want to hear everything. Guys, this is how cases are fine-tuned. They're honed by, I remember talking to my best friend in the DA's office about cases, talking to my investigator, working the evidence through,

seeing what would work, what wouldn't. Like what you just heard McDonough say, that would be a fantastic theory to put to a jury, but yet we know he was only in there for 20 minutes. crime stories with nancy grace two things very quickly anybody jump in laura engel we've heard a lot about um dylan dm as she is called in the probable cause affidavit how how could it be everybody says that he walked right by her and didn't see her i have a theory on that laura and that theory is that she ducked back in her door and had the door cracked and saw him go by would

that work with the evidence as we know it it could could, certainly. And I mean, when you read the affidavit, it doesn't say she was standing in the doorway, you know, in front of the kitchen. It doesn't give us that detail, just says that she did open the door. And it says three things, very distinct sounds and clues that we have from DM, Dylan, the roommate, that she heard who she thought was Kaylee saying there's someone here then she heard the whimpering and crying sounds and a male voice saying it's okay I'm going to help you and then that third and final time she opens the door she sees the figure dressed in black with the mask and the bushy eyebrows and then says she locks the door. One of the other things, I want to go back to the sheets just really quick because you had said at

the beginning of the show, we've wondered if Brian Koberger got involved with discussions online on Facebook groups and on Reddit and on all these things, but there was a very specific thing that somebody said that a lot of people are saying could probably be Brian Koberger. He wrote on a Facebook page that was titled University of Idaho Murders Facebook Discussion Group. Is that when he was going under Papa Rogers or the other name?

Papa Rogers, right. Okay. And this is before the probable cause affidavit and he says one of the evidence of the evidence released the murder weapon has been consistent as a large fixed blade knife this leads me to believe they found the sheath we didn't know about the sheath at the time yeah we did not know about yeah but that but that's a leak from the investigation is where that's coming from you can't believe that they knew that unless that was him bragging online and dr bethany in a nutshell wouldn't that fit exactly with the personality characteristics that

you observed absolutely nancy that would absolutely fit with his personality. He was inserting himself into everything, online forums, saving a life, creeping on women in bars. And, you know, we were talking about what's along that route between his home and the victim's home. And what nobody mentioned was other victims, that maybe that was a very common route for him. And maybe there are other potential victims that were along that route. So that not only would he have been shedding clothing, evidence, but maybe he was stalking other people as well. I mean, serial killers don't just stalk one person. This is the first in an intended long line of serial killings. And so I think we have

to add that into our discussion. Joe Scott, a lot has been made as to whether a quadruple homicide could be affected in 16 minutes. I think it was, Jackie, wasn't it 16 minutes? Laura, wasn't it 16 minutes? We believe he was in the home. Okay. What about it, Joe Scott? Yeah. My thought is, is that the individual that perpetrated something like this would have to have a familiarity with the environment to move that quickly through this, because this is dirty, dirty work and it is labor intensive. I hate to put it in those terms, but it truly is. The individual would have to move with stealth. They would have to move with purpose.

They would have to know where the victims are in order to facilitate this. And they'd have to be prepared showing up. So yeah, I mean, yeah, it's possible. 16 minutes, certainly. I know somebody in the, certainly people in the military that are trained at this sort of thing could do it probably under that time. But you know, you're talking about college kids. You're not talking about enemy combatants here. And so, yeah, and if he had familiarity with this environment, I think that's possible. Well, then his hair follicles might be there already.

If he had been in the home before. Well, my thought about this, Nancy, I'm wondering if he had not been going in there in that house when other people were not there and maybe nesting in that house. That's why I think that it's really interesting if the cops went in there in that house when other people were not there and maybe nesting in that house that's why i think that it's really interesting if the cops went in there and looked in the closets to see if there was any touch dna left behind or if this guy had been having some kind of masturbatory fantasies in those closets just hanging out when no one else why is it when you say masturbatory fantasies, nobody says a word? When I say it, everybody goes, why would you say that?

That's gross. There's no evidence of that. But you and Bethany talk about it all the time. But when I say this, I'm like, oh, no. Why did she say that? Okay. Okay. The other possibility, Nancy, is that I like the use of Joe Scott Morgan's word nesting.

I'd never heard that before. But maybe he was also nesting at night when the kids were sleeping. I mean, he did that work so quickly, 16 minutes. I'm not a crime scene investigator. I'm just like, how do you kill four people in 16 minutes? Well, hold on. Chris McDonough has been at the same. Chris, isn't it true that from the outside looking in,

if you look in every window, you can easily spot the layout of the home? Absolutely, Nancy. And we talked about this on your show many times where this guy is such a mechanical existence. And he's taken all of this time to kind of set the stage like Joe's talking about. And that's where that cinder block in the back window behind the house that we spoke about just doesn't look right. That thing is that was just out of out of place. One other thing on the evidence that I don't think nobody's talking about yet is after the incident, if he's gone out and, you know, just move the items in various different locations, that air filter in that car is going to be critical

to take because you're able to get pollens from the different type of environments, trap them in that air filter, and Joe's talked about this for days, but then bring a botanist in and see if those environments are consistent with those pollens. That is an incredible idea. Oh gosh, that's such a good idea. They had an AACC guy come in and check the air conditioning system in the house. They did? You know that? I do. You said they had a what kind of guy? HVAC, an air conditioning. HVAC. There's one more big piece of evidence that no one's really, you know, diving into. And that's that's the shoe print in the hallway that they recovered or noticed. They enhanced it with a meat of black, which is it's a protein. It reacts footprint was left in blood. But they do have this identified as coming from a band-style shoe, and it's a diamond pattern.

It looks like it. I don't know if it's a heel strike or toe strike. But if he's transferring blood off of the sole of that shoe and it's creating a print, that's very significant. And all of these items, you know, we're talking items you know we're talking about knives we're talking about shoes all these things it doesn't take forensics to track this down this is shoe leather on the part of the cops going out and just trying to determine did he own these things is there a purchase history with these things bands are very specific i know a lot of college

kids have my college kids that that i teach atville State wear them. But, you know, that's significant. Is it something that he owns? And the pattern on that shoe is distinctive to him depending upon the wear pattern. As you can see, there is so much evidence to sift through. And so far, all we've seen is a probable cause affidavit. What will come next? We wait as the evidence unfolds. Nancy Grace, signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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