Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Countdown to freedom? OJ Simpson's big day!

Episode Date: July 20, 2017

OJ Simpson could be walking your streets in October if the Nevada parole board decides Thursday he's done enough time for a 2007 robbery and kidnapping. OJ's former prison guard Jeffrey Felix, journalist Art Harris, forensic psychologist Daniel Bober and Nancy Grace debate the question in this episode leading up to the parole hearing. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. It is a hearing that everyone will be watching. OJ Simpson will get his shot at freedom. He's scheduled to have a parole hearing on Thursday in Nevada. The former football star is sitting right now in a state prison for robbery in Las Vegas. You know, I wasn't there to hurt anybody. I just wanted my personal things and I realized I was stupid. Count one, conspiracy to commit a crime, guilty. Count two, conspiracy to commit kidnapping, guilty. Count

three, conspiracy to commit robbery, guilty. I am sorry. I didn't mean to steal anything from anybody. And I didn't know I was doing anything illegal. 60 minutes and counting. 60 minutes and counting before a Nevada parole board hears evidence and will determine whether so-called America's number one bad guy, Orenthal James Simpson, will walk free. We are in a countdown as we wait for justice to unfold there in Carson City, Nevada. I'm Nancy Grace.

This is Crime Stories here on Sirius XM. And we are taking your calls. Joining me right now to break it down and put it back together again, two-time Emmy award-winning investigative journalist, Art Harris. Also with me, forensic psychiatrist out of Florida, Dr. Daniel Bober. Also with me, Jeffrey Felix, author of Guarding the Juice, How OJ Simpson Became My Prison BFF. Well, I don't know that I'd brag about that. But as we keep an eye on the clock, I want to go straight out to Art Harris.

Art Harris, it's happening. And I have been in one dogfight after the next ever since it was announced this parole board hearing was going down. And I still stand by my assertion that O.J. Simpson should not get parole, and I'll tell you why. If you look at the guidelines on whether someone gets parole, the parole board can look at aggravating circumstances and quote other evidence. That includes the 1997 civil verdict of a jury that unanimously decided Simpson was guilty, was responsible for those two murders. That means a lot to me. How can the parole board ignore that, Art? Well, Nancy, they can

ignore anything they want. It's their prerogative. And in this case, it's a question, do they want to send a message to other inmates, try hard, and maybe you can get out like OJ, too? A message to other inmates, try hard and maybe you can get out like OJ too? A message to the other inmates? He has done his time here. He's kept relatively clean, and therefore he's paid for at least some justice. How about a message to the rest of the world? What about a message to other people that are considering a life of crime? And they'll see this and go, uh-uh, uh-uh, I don't want to sit in Lovelock the rest of my life. Uh-uh.

What about that message, Art Harris? That's right, Nancy. He's got a shot at his first parole date that would come up for 33 years. So that's after seven years, he gets a shot. So that is, you know, why don't they skip? They could easily veto that. That's their prerogative. And hopefully those who believe in justice will get a message to them.

But the way the wind is blowing. The way the wind is blowing. You know, as I said yesterday, my prediction is they will let him out for whatever reason they are going to cite. The way the wind is blowing. I hardly think, Art Harris, you know, I know you've got your two Emmys. I hardly think that the way the wind is blowing is legal precedent. And I can tell you this much. I would not want to push my cart down the aisle at Walmart and have everybody walk up to me and go,

why did you vote to let O.J. Simpson out of jail? Why? With me, I'm going to go straight to Jeffrey Felix, author of Guarding the Juice, How O.J. Simpson Became My Prison BFF. First of all, thank you for being with us. Jeffrey Felix, what can you tell me about O.J. Simpson getting preferential treatment behind bars? Well, Nancy, O.J. gets their unwritten rules. There's a few of them. We'll start with if there was an altercation on the yard, like a fight on the yard, the officer was up in a gun bubble, the officer would have to scan the

yard to make sure OJ Simpson isn't anywhere near the fight so he wouldn't get shot. It'd be a very bad day for the prison system and the state of Nevada if OJ Simpson got shot. Any kind of force that's used against O.J., like if they have to put him in handcuffs or anything like that, has to come from Sergeant or above. Okay. Third, nobody can shake down his cell unless it's authorized by the warden or the warden designee. There's also no unscheduled visitor contact with O.J. Simpson. So people just can't come to the prison and O.J. agrees to see him. They can't. They still can't come in. And every inmate in the state of Nevada gets an I.D. card that he has to keep on him or

on her at all times. So they get a write up. O.J. Simpson does not have an ID card. And the reason that is, is because OJ Simpson was given an ID card. An officer in Vegas, when he was down there for a few weeks, took the ID card and sold it on eBay. This is the kind of things that the Nevada Department of Corrections is dealing with. I mean, having this big-time celebrity. Oh, you mean a two-time killer? Well, he was acquitted of that. So that does not mean he didn't do it, Jeffrey. Well, I believe in him. He was acquitted by one jury and found guilty by another jury. Well, he was found guilty by a...

I mean, really? That can bring any kind of evidence. That's right. Hearsay and everything goes. That's not true. That is not true. That is not true. Any evidence is not allowed in a civil trial.

Absolutely not. But the fact that he flunked his lie detector, yeah, that came in. The fact that he lied about owning Bruno Mali shoes and that the Bruno Mali footsteps were found in the blood, in Nicole Brown's blood, that came in. The fact that DNA proved his blood was at the crime scene, 170 million to one odds, that came in. Nicole's blood on his socks at his home, that came in. Yeah. Well, yeah. I'm convinced.

And another thing, that whole story about police are bad, police had a conspiracy to convict OJ Simpson, BS. You think police could be quiet all these years and not blow the whistle on somebody and write a book for a million dollars? Mm-mm. No. There was no conspiracy. They bungled a few things. these years and not blow the whistle on somebody and write a book for a million dollars? No, there was no conspiracy. They bungled a few things, but Simpson did it. The two are not mutually exclusive. Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist out of Florida, you really think cops would frame Simpson and now all these years later, not one of them would have sold that story

for a million dollars? No way. You know, Nancy, you can't have it both ways. You can't say that there was this massive conspiracy within the LAPD, but then they're a bunch of bumbling fools. Those two things can't really exist together. And even if you buy the verdict in the criminal trial, this is a guy who, you know, the disclaimer, I've never formally evaluated, so I can't diagnose him with anything. But this is a guy who has completely had no respect for the law, no respect for people, has played by his own rules, and thumbed his nose at law enforcement for his entire post-football career. This is someone who has no respect for human beings. And even after he was found innocent and acquitted in the criminal trial, he continued to have run-ins with the law. You would think if someone was found not guilty that they would try to lay low,

but this guy was getting in trouble all the time and different problems he was having with law enforcement. There's a lot of narcissism, and there's a lot of sociopathy there, in my opinion. He's just someone who I think doesn't think the rules apply to him. That's the bottom line. Daniel, hold on one moment with me. Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, Art Harris, Emmy Award winning investigative journalist, and Jeffrey Felix, author of Guarding the Juice. I'm about

to head to the lines. Hold on, Kathy in Madison, Wisconsin. I've got to ask Felix one more question. Jeffrey, there was one passage in your book. Your whole book was great, by the way, Guarding OJ, Guarding the Juice. But there was one segment I'd like you to recount instead of me recounting it, where you asked, as I recall, he was washing his hands and he looked in the mirror in the bathroom. Yes.

Okay. You tell the story. I was in OJ's cell and he just got done shaving when I walked in. He was looking in the mirror, just finishing it up. And I told him, I said, hey, Juice, you just solved the Brentwood murders. And he looked at me and he goes, what are you talking about? I said, the murder is right there in the mirror. And you should have seen the look he gave me. He was really upset and he was upset for about a week, but he got over it

because he knew I was just joking. The way you told it was that he said only two people in the world know who did the murders. That's right. AC, Cowlings, and me. That's the point of the story, Jeffrey. That's true. I forgot about that. Well, no, no, no. He explained to me. Yeah, well,

that's the whole point of the story. I don't give a flying fig if he's shaving or he was mad at you for a week. The point is he said to you, only two people know who did the murders point of the story. I don't give a flying fig if he's shaving or he was mad at you for a week. The point is, he said to you, only two people know who did the murders, me and AC. Hello? Yeah, okay, now hold on. He told me the story, what happened that night. So I know.

What happened that night was two drug dealers showed up at OJ's house and informed the Jews that Nicole and Ronald and ronald owed them 30k in cocaine money and they asked oj if he would cover it he said absolutely not him and nicole are separated for the last time and then they asked you mind if we go to nicole's try to get the money out of her and maybe make ronald work at his restaurant to pass out the drugs that the deal with him there and oj said i have no issue with that but no harm comes to nicole so they went over there now hold on that's so funny okay go ahead well oj more than likely followed them over there and saw some heinous stuff so he probably stepped in he could have stepped in to help wait is that what he told you or you extrapolated? No, I'm just saying.

Did he tell you that? No, no. He didn't say he stepped in. He said he went over there. Okay, you know what? Never mind. Never mind. Hold on, Jeffrey. In your book says that he told you two people know who commit the murders.

A.C. Cowlings and him. Okay. He said he and Cowlings knew who did it murders, A.C. Cowlings and him. Okay. He said he and Cowlings knew who did it. Hold on. Back to the lines. Kathy in Madison. Hi, Kathy.

Yes. Thank you for calling. What's your question? Very proud to talk to you, Nancy. The question I had is why? Why are we even debating this? This guy is a menace. He does not belong back in society. That's my feeling. He needs to be kept in jail. You know what, Kathy, this is what I don't understand. How everybody is

running with the fact that the parole board can't look at the double murders. That's simply not true. Well, whether he was acquitted of that or not. And evidence of wrongdoing. Whether he was acquitted of the murders or not. The guy's a problem. He's got mental issues. He's a narcissist. He did not care about what happened to his children when his wife was killed.

I mean, just look at his past record. He's going to do the same thing that he's been doing when he gets back out. He's a menace to society. He needs to stay behind bars. Kathy in Madison, thank you for calling. And I'm going to pass on your question right now to forensic psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober. Everybody, we are standing by. It is now minutes before the parole board will file in and this hearing will start. You know, if you thought it was all over when he was acquitted wrongly on the double murder, man, it is not over. It is far from over.

Dr. Daniel Bober out of Florida, can you address Kathy in Wisconsin's issue? I do think that, Nancy, that this is a guy who chronically has shown a complete disrespect for the law, for the rules of society. I don't believe in any way, shape or form that he's sincerely changed. I believe that it's simply a practical matter of him knowing that for him to get out on parole, that he has to keep his quiet and lay as low as possible. So I don't believe he's truly changed. I don't believe he has any remorse. I believe he has a complete sense of entitlement and feels like he could do whatever he wants. So I don't expect that he'll make any meaningful contribution to society whatsoever or

be a productive citizen. I think he will continue living his life exactly the way he did before, which is feeling like he can do anything he wants without any rules applying to him. What is that called exactly, Dr. Boba? It's a combination of narcissism and sociopathy, which means that you have no respect for the rules of society and you feel no remorse and no compassion for people. It's all about you. And that's OJ Simpson in a nutshell. It's all about him. I agree. Keep him, Gail. You know, I'm just stunned still that people believe the parole board cannot pay any attention to the double murders. Let's go straight out to the line. Kathy in Wisconsin, thank you for calling.

We're all standing by right now waiting to hear what the parole board is going to do. Straight out to Ocala, Florida. Carol, thank you for calling, dear. What do you think about O.J. Simpson? Nancy, I've been following you forever. You're awesome. About O.J., he needs to stay where he is. I think that he's, I think your last caller had it right on.

There's a mental issue with him, and he's a sociopathopath he just thinks that he can get away with whatever he wants to get away with because he was a star before and to me he acts like he has a pompous attitude so what i killed my wife and some guy who cares and to me it's just all this parole board stuff and the publicity is just really itching into the Goldberg family and the and the Coase family right now and I think that is the thing that we all really need to understand that they're probably praying that he don't see the light of day because he's going to do the same things that he's always done just like your last caller said and like the psychologist said I mean what what could he do what could he do when he gave up? I'll tell you what

he can do. Everybody already has fingers. I'll tell you what he can do. Same thing he's always done. Shack up with another Nicole Brown lookalike. Yeah, and that lady he was dating after Nicole Brown, I thought he was going to do her in, to be honest with you. I really thought so because she was, she broke up with him and all this stuff and started believing it eventually. And I thought for sure she was going to be the next one. I've got to tell you, she said she was afraid for her life and that based on things Simpson had told her, she believed he committed double murder. Everybody, this is Crime Stories. I'm Nancy Grace.

Thank you for being with us. We are on a court watch, a parole board watch right now as the minutes tick down. We're in the final hour before a Nevada parole board files in. And here's from OJ Simpson himself via video. Will they grant him parole? We will get the answer to that today according to sources. This amidst claims that OJ Simpson's whole parole board hearing is going to be thrown off because Simpson was caught, let me just say, pleasing himself in his Nevada prison cell by a female

corrections officer. Yes, that's the nicest way I can put it. Will Simpson's parole be in jeopardy after he's caught pleasuring himself in his cell? That's a bomb that just dropped. On order comes the hit true crime series, Cold Justice. There are so many cold cases out there that still need to be solved. Every Saturday, follow Kelly as she takes real cases from cold to closed. What you will always see on Cold Justice is real. To get the guilty person put away, there's not a better feeling in the whole world if you're a law enforcement. Cold Justice returns July 22nd at 8, 7 central on Oxygen, the new network for crime. Stay tuned for a special O.J. Simpson Parole Hearing Update edition of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We'll post it soon after the decisions handed down.

I want to go straight to Art Harris. Art, you've heard the reports. The former football great caught pleasuring himself by a female corrections officer who was making her normal rounds at Love Lock Correctional in Nevada. He is facing disciplinary hearing after being written up. I'm not really sure how that can be a violation. It seemed as if, according to these reports, if they're true, this occurred in June. What do you know about it? Well, Nancy, according to prison rules, if the officer believes that

his actions were, quote, intentional, this is something that violates the prison's, quote, Rape Elimination Act of 2003. It's a federal law dealing with sexual assault of prisoners. How can that not be intentional? Well, absolutely. You know, I'm glad we're having a dream of some sort. Another dream? Like the one about Nicole being murdered? That dream?

Remember that one? Yep, there you go. So this is probably a question for the psychiatrist. But the officers, this is a dilemma for the prison. But, you know, it gives the parole board something, quote, hard to hang on to if they want to hang their hats on rejection. This could be the straw that breaks OJ's quest for freedom. Now, there are reports that this is incorrect. It makes me wonder where the report came from because it's now all over the media.

We are taking your calls out to Mateo in Washington. Hi, Mateo. Thank you for calling. Hi, Nancy. I love you. I love you on Dance with Stars. I love you. Whatever you do, I love you. Mateo, thank you. I just wanted to say that. Thank you for that. You can tell the defense bar that. Hey, we all can't dance, but at least you tried. You have children. You showed them you could try. You're a winner in my eyes. I would like to remind you, Mateo, Mateo, Mateo. Hold on, Mateo.

Let me remind you and your friends that I was a feisty fan favorite, and I did manage to make it all the way to the second to the end of the show and was in the coveted final five. Okay. So that's my interpretation of what happened on Dancing with the Stars. Okay. Now, go ahead. But your personality, Nancy, that isn't your personality.

You want to go in there and kick, you know what, and you don't even care about the name. So that's what I love about you. You are fun to watch. I just want to tell you between O.J. Simpson and what's going on, I wanted to ask you if you had a choice to put one of two people on the buzzer

for death, who would it be? Casey Anthony or O.J. Simpson? Wow, you know what? That's a tough decision right there. That's a tough decision. Who would it be, Casey Anthony or O.J. Simpson? Well, you know what? I hope this is appropriate. That's a tough decision right there. That's a tough decision. And also, nobody can single-handedly send someone to the death penalty.

It takes a jury. And here's the balancing in that. I'm going to go to you, Dr. Daniel Bober. In Tot Mom, Casey Anthony, the victim was so young, so sweet, so a child vulnerable. But also, when you look at Nicole and Ron, what life is more valuable than another life? I mean, people have asked me a lot of times, Mateo, what has been your favorite case? They're not like a favorite dish or a favorite memory. Cases involve a lot of heartache and a lot of tragedy and a lot of suffering.

And even if you get a conviction, it's a very, still for me, every time I walked out of the courtroom, even if I won a case, felt very sad. It was almost a relief, not jubilant. It was like, okay, he's off the street, next. So to pick a particular case, I think is really placing one victim above another victim. But I've got to agree with you, Mateo. Those are two of the most notorious killers I have ever, ever encountered. And again, as Jeffrey Felix keeps pointing out, author of Guarding the Jews, he was acquitted by a criminal jury, as was Totmom. That doesn't mean he didn't do it.

Okay? In fact, one of the jurors has now spoken out that acquitted Simpson and says now, well, now that I see the evidence, I think he did do it. So, you know, that doesn't mean, that does not mean anything to me because my analysis of the facts and evidence say he did do it. I'm glad you're with me, Mateo, as we're waiting for the parole board to file in. What do you think, Mateo? Are they going to parole him or not?

Are they going to set him free? I think they're going to. And I, unfortunately, feel like maybe we should just, I think we should let up and just let him live. And if he screws up, he's done. But, unfortunately, whose cost is it going to be? Mateo, thank you for calling in. So, Art, I'm going to shift gears now. I want to go back to the parole board hearing.

Tell me how it's going to go down. I know it's a video thing. And right now we're less than an hour away from the answer. Go ahead, Art. We're waiting to hear if one of the victims of that robbery, Mr. Bruce Furlong, is going to testify. They won't confirm it. But he has apparently forgiven O.J., supposedly. So he may say, look, I didn't realize there was going to be so much time attached to any conviction, or I might not have pressed charges or wanted to.

But he's going to be evaluated, Nancy, as someone who on a scale, they have a point system. And if he's done a significant amount of time, he's sort of in that category of someone and his age who does qualify and may well get parole. With four of seven commissioners, he's got to win over at the parole hearing. And on this point system, they look at gang membership, drug and alcohol abuse, age, and they assess his eligibility. And each issue has a value of minus one to plus two. They add them up, and then they vote. So if the sexual peccadillo allegedly that has been reported doesn't come in there, and there's discretion on the part of the officer who supposedly caught him, the odds are in his favor if he's got a good argument that he has not been in a lot of

trouble. He claims he's broken up fights. He's advised these young inmates on getting their life straight. And he's a hero inside. So I'm sure he was able to bask in that egotism that he needs so much. And the narcissism was indulged behind bars, you know, the way the psychiatrist has explained, and how does he justify this? Well, getting back to who did it, he looked in the mirror and told the guard that only he and AC knew. How does that jive with the fact that he's still looking for the killer? If he knows who did it, why does he have to look so hard? It's interesting. If he claims he knows who did it, why didn't he tell police?

Why didn't that come out at the trial? I want to go back to Jeffrey Felix on that. Author of Guarding the Jews, How OJ Simpson Became My Prison BFF. How did Simpson get so out of shape behind bars, Jeffrey? Well, he likes eating cookies and cake. Can I address the pro board issue, Nancy, real quick? Yeah. Okay. OJ Simpson has been locked up for roughly nine years. He's gone right up free. He's done all the programming the parole board asked him to do and more. He's taken all the education classes. He has gone above and beyond being a role model inmate. Okay. He was a facilitator out there. He stopped trouble before trouble started. He's had the same job for eight

years. The parole board will grant him the parole. It's almost a guarantee. The sexual thing never happened. I've spoken to prison officials that are very high up. That never happened. It's not that OJ is a menace to society and looks for problems. He was laying down low doing his own thing, and he got a call from a guy saying, hey, they have your stuff, OJ. Let's go get it. He was set up for that. Okay, hold on. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. That was not OJ Simpson's stuff, number one. That was not his, quote, stuff. The victims have been clear about that even to this day. He looked at the judge and lied and said there were family heirlooms. That is a lie.

Number two, he said he did not know anybody was armed. That is a lie. They were brandishing guns. They burst into this room where they were selling sports memorabilia, started screaming, nobody leaves the room, nobody leaves the room, and put guns in the victims' faces. Okay. That is an armed robbery and a kidnapping.

Bam! I don't know what you're talking about. Well, when O.J. saw them in the lobby, the one guy came up to O.J. and he said, I have a gun. And O.J. said, do you have a license? He said, yes. O.J. said, don't. O.J. told me he told him, don't take the gun out. We're not going to need it.

Now, you got to remember, all these guys that O.J. was surrounding himself with, these guys aren't some of your better citizens. We can all agree on that. I mean, these guys changed their stories. So what's your point? The point is that this whole thing in Vegas was just a way to get OJ that California couldn't do. You know, I have a lot of friends that are attorneys in Vegas. Oh, so you're saying that the guys that were with him were what? Working with the police to catch OJ Simpson?

OJ Simpson put himself in that position. Man, if I'm walking along and somebody pulls the gun, I get away. I don't want to be with anybody pulling a gun. They pull the gun and left with the stuff. How can you even say Simpson did not know what was happening? Is that you aren't coming in? I was going to interject that one of the stories that I learned was that he was wondering and afraid, maybe these guys have guns themselves. I mean, they're memorabilia dealers.

They have a lot of cash, so I better be prepared. So he surrounds himself with the goons. He's out there for a wedding, whether he's had a few drinks or not. You know, he thinks this is a great idea. He may be impressionable by his fans. However, O.J. is O.J., and like the trial,, you know, he thinks this is a great idea. He may be impressionable by his, you know, his fans. However, OJ is OJ. And like the trial, we all know he called the shots. He was the quarterback and everyone fawns over him and does his bidding. So, you know, to say that it was bad guys around him, that is really letting OJ off the hook. Well, of course they're bad guys. Who do you think Simpson's hanging around with? Dr. Daniel Bober?

Nuns and priests and virgins? No. And another thing. This is just absurd. This is absurd. Yeah, it's crazy talk. This is absurd. OJ, OJ, all this is on OJ.

OJ made a decision to go up there. OJ is a common criminal. OJ is a common criminal with a football jersey, but he's still a criminal. He made the decision to go up to that hotel room. He could have called the police. He could have handled it in a civilized way. He was the one who escalated the conflict and made the decision to go up there with force. So you can't take any responsibility away from him on that. That was all on him. So to say otherwise, if you look at it this way, if it was anybody else, anybody else other than OJ Simpson, they might have got one year probation.

Maybe one year probation. That is not true. When I tried armed robbery cases, armed robbery and kidnapping, oh, no, sir, uh-uh, you're going to jail. And I put plenty of people behind bars with the help of juries. When you pull a gun on somebody, uh-uh, you're going to jail. Nobody got straight probation with me. And you pull a gun on somebody, uh-uh, you're going to jail. Nobody got straight probation with me. And you can't have it both ways.

OJ got sent to jail because he's famous and OJ got acquitted because he's famous. No. And what about the beatings of Nicole Brown? What about that? It's like her life means nothing in this scenario. We're all talking about Simpson, Simpson, Simpson. What about her? She was a mother, for Pete's sake, with two little children to raise Her life means nothing in this scenario. We're all talking about Simpson, Simpson, Simpson. What about her?

She was a mother, for Pete's sake, with two little children to raise, and she's dead, and they have been raised without her. And him claiming some drug dealer did it? B.S. B.S. If that were true, Johnny Cochran would have brought that up at trial, and that would have been the defense. No. Not one word was said about that. And Simpson didn't have the backbone to take the stand. You know why? Because he would have been cut up,

carved up like a Thanksgiving turkey on cross-exam. And all this business, no offense, Jeffrey Felix, because I enjoyed reading your book. No offense, but to say he's been a model prisoner, he should get out. That's like saying, you know, y'all let the devil out of hell because he filed his taxes on time last year. You know what? No. No. Uh-uh. I'm going to the lines.

Patrick in Buffalo. What's your question, dear? Hi, Nancy. It's a pleasure to meet you. I'm actually 17 years old, and you're a huge role model for me. What you do for victims' rights is just amazing. Thank you. I would just like to comment on Jeffrey's point of view from the O.J. Simpson. I think he's an evil man. I

actually live in Buffalo, and O.J. used to play football here in Buffalo. Everyone in Buffalo wants to see O.J. still be locked up in jail. Also, for the people out there that are saying O.J. should be off free, I believe that, oh, and for the people that are saying that he never even killed, lady justice isn't always right. I mean, I like to think lady justice is always fair and balanced, but there's people that are in jail that never committed a crime and there's people that are walking around that committed a crime and that are not in jail. So I don't think we could just go off of, oh, he's a nice man.

He should be walking free. He's an evil man. You know, Art, you know, Art, you and I go way back, okay? You know how much I loved your sister Meg. But for you to talk to me and argue that he's been great behind bars, that is not worth the salt that goes in my bread. Because I saw this person. I'm not arguing for him. I'm saying that is what is going to be argued, and that's what they will possibly consider.

But he is someone who has harmed a lot of people, the pain and suffering that the Goldman's have to live with, with the creditor, as creditors of a $33 million debt. They have not collected much at all from him, and no amount of money could satisfy the heartache that they have had to go through. To watch them in that courtroom, Nancy, and we were sitting close to them when the verdict was read, the horror on their faces, it was just heart-wrenching. And so... Okay, all right, you brought me to my senses. You are right. Even though I don't like. And so, you know, to say that he hasn't hurt anybody. You brought me to my senses. You are right.

Those, even though I don't like to hear it, you're right. That is what they're going to consider. We're taking your calls straight to the lines. Linda from Melbourne, Florida. Hi, Linda. I guess you know where O.J. Simpson is headed if he does make parole. Straight to Florida where no income tax and they can't touch his house and so forth and so on. He'll have it made in the shade, right? I guess he would. Probably anywhere he went,

he would. Yeah. What do you think, Linda? Well, I think he will get paroled, but I think it will be the biggest injustice that ever happened to this country. He is a narcissist. He thinks he's above the law. He is dangerous and he will never change. That's my view. You know what everybody keeps saying, Linda? They keep saying the parole board has to let him out. That is not true. Their decision is discretionary. There is no appeal, and he's only done nine years of a 33-year sentence.

Why should they let him out? No, he should stay there at least 10 more years. At least. So tell me this, Art. Why does it seem to be that everyone is suggesting, the media specifically, that the parole board has to let him out? That's not true. They have their guidelines, and they can do what they want, what they feel is right, Nancy, but we do not have any oversight on them, and we don't know what the victim's statements, how much they will play, and how much the, quote, supposed forgiveness of one of the robbed dealers will play if he forgives O.J. and has publicly, if he's going to testify.

What will they do if suddenly something comes up? I mean, they can hang their hat. It's like reasonable doubt. And if you know that the jury there was given so many options of what they could pin, you know, his innocence on that they just had to pick one or two as, as Tom Lang, a homicide detective said, you know, the defense just threw spaghetti in the wall and see what's stuck, you know, what stuck and the defense could, the jury could pick what they wanted. And they did because there was so much bias and, you know, the atmosphere around stuck, and the jury could pick what they wanted, and they did, because there was so much bias, and you know the atmosphere around the trial

and the history and the jury selection. So this was really a done deal from the get-go, and now we don't know what is going on inside the minds of these parole board members. And so they can justify one way or the other, but you're right. They do not have to let him go if they feel that evil will get a holiday here. Well, that's a good way to put it. Evil will get a holiday. Susan in Napa, California. Hi, Susan. Thank you for calling. What's your question, dear? It took so long to talk to you. I miss you so much.

I love Ashley Banfield, but there's only one Nancy Grace, and I hope someday you come back to TV. My own feeling about it is, yes, he was guilty of the murders. He got away with murder, just like Casey Anthony. I believe for both trials, the jurors, after they heard all the evidence, after the trials were finished, I believe they said they may have voted for guilty in both verdicts in both cases. I think they're going to let him out. But I'm a special or was a special ed teacher with at-risk kids, had a lot of mental health training, and I would go as far as to say he has antisocial personality disorder, not sociopathic but psychopathic. I'm glad you said that, Susan.

Number one, I want to thank you for sticking by me all these years when I was on TV, on court TV and HLN, and yes, I am planning to come back to TV. Do you remember all the way back when I had the show with Johnny Cochran? I mean, wow. God rest his soul, is what I can say about Johnny. And I learned a lot about how he managed to win cases. He was very charismatic, very charming, and likable. That's what it was, Susan. He was likable. Very much so. You want to talk to him. You know that person that shows up at the party and everybody wants to talk to him? That, that's him. That was Johnny. So I think the

jury liked him. They thought they knew Simpson. And with me right now is somebody that does know Simpson, Jeffrey Felix, the author of Guarding the Jail. O.J. Simpson became my prison BFF. So, Jeffrey, what is it about Simpson? What is the charisma that makes people like him so much? I think he has like an aura around him, like a positive aura. He's just a nice guy. He respects everybody. He just gets a nice guy. He respects everybody. He just gets along with people.

He doesn't talk down to people. He's just, you know what an introvert and extrovert is. He's like a super extrovert. He likes a lot of people, a lot of friends. And I think people just think the worst of him. You know, he, more than likely, he might have been involved in the murders. I don't think he worst of him. You know, he, more than likely, he might have been involved in the murders. I don't think he did the murders.

I think people just go overboard with this guy. I think people just look. People need somebody to hate. Okay, hold on. Hold on, Jeffrey. That is so not what I asked you, okay? Because one jury said he did it. Jurors off the first criminal trial are now saying they think he did it.

So, you know, your story or his story that he told you that drug dealers came to him and that about Nicole and that he knows who did the murder, well, you know what? That makes zero sense because he should have used that at trial. But that simply was never the defense. Okay? If that were true, why didn't he want to get the people that killed Nicole and Ron? Why didn't he tell police about it? Well, he wanted to. What?

It was cops. Well, why didn't he? And Shapiro, all of his attorneys told him. No, no, baby doll. No, he wanted to. What? It was Cochran. Well, why didn't he? And Shapiro, all of his attorneys told him, No, no, baby doll. No, no, no. Don't you remember that low-speed chase? Yeah, he could have told him right then. He could have told him

the night Nicole was killed, couldn't he? Before Cochran was ever even part of it. He was in shock. Cochran didn't come in. He was in shock. No, honey, he went and caught a plane and tried to explain how he cut his hand. Yes, please do. You know, when we were covering this,

I would try to parse the truth from all the spin that was being put out there. This was one of the great impossible to prove rumors the defense had out there that drug dealers had killed Nicole. And, you know, cops actually followed up on some of these, but there were no solid leads,

Nancy. They could never chase us down the rat hole that OJ has apparently led this prison BFF guard down with him. And he's got willing ears. Anybody who was not there, who didn't study the actual evidence, Nancy, and did not know what happened at the trial, is not really in a position to pontificate about whether OJ is guilty or not. And I am just still stunned that anybody in this earth who has studied the trial considers that he did not kill these two people. You mentioned something else, Jeffrey. Let's see, you said

about the drug dealers. You said Simpson told you he cut his hand playing golf. Yes, Jeffrey. Let's see. You said about the drug dealers. You said Simpson told you he cut his hand playing golf. Yes. Yes. I play golf. I've cut my hand a few times. Really? But he told police he cut his hands on a glass at the hotel when he landed. I think it was in Chicago. That's what he told police. And now he told you a different story. I've never known a golf club to be a sharp utensil, but whatever. You know, you're saying he is a nice guy, which is right here and there. But when he was confronted under oath in a deposition and shown the photo of Nicole's bruised and swollen face,

that's when he pled guilty to beating her, okay? And just a few days before she was murdered, she called the Battered Women's Center in fear for her life. Just before she was murdered, yes she did, okay? But he was shown her photo with her face all swollen up and bloody and bruised. And do you know what he said under oath? Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist out of Florida. During the deposition, Petrocelli quizzed him on these photographs and he actually said that he denied hitting her and that what was on her face was actually makeup. That she put the bruises on her face with makeup. And that the photo reflected, quote, doing a movie

that we're doing and we're doing makeup. That's what he said about the photo in the police file of one of the times he beat her horribly. So I just can't stand by and let people talk about what a nice guy he is.

Bober, help me out. It's complete nonsense, really. Complete nonsense. In that trial, there was a lot of perjury going on. Mark Furman perjured himself. I mean, it was just a bad thing. But that doesn't mean O.G. didn't do it, though, just because Mark Furman perjured himself. Mark Furman was also at the house when he was beating Nicole, Nancy,

and he responded to those calls, and they tried to make it look like he had it informed because he knew the dirty little secrets of O.J. So, you know, we really, you've got to look at the facts. Let me ask you something, Art. Now that you said that, you reminded me of something that you would only know about if you had been in the preliminary hearings leading up to the trial, hearing what would and would not come into evidence. How many times did he beat her?

Do we have any idea? I don't know. I just know there were a number of calls into the West Precinct of L.A. about O.J. beating her that she would call in. And, you know, this was a familiar domestic abuse domicile as far as the police were concerned. And, uh, Furman, uh, you know, knew about that. So, um, he knew where OJ lived because they'd been there before in response to these calls. I think, uh, uh, if you, if you, you know, know that then, uh,

and you go back and look at, I studied, I've interviewed, uh, people who sold OJ, uh, cocaine and they did, he did a lot of it with Nicole, but he did it with other people. And, you know, he was blaming her for his drug usage. So, you know, he was in control of the whole show, as the psychiatrist has said, as a narcissist. You know, he's the one who calls the shots, and that's OJ. You know, I just don't know how Dr. Bober, hold on, doctor, I'm going to go to Crystal in Athens, Ohio,

how a parole board could live with themselves by letting this guy go. He's only done nine of 33 year sentence. To Crystal, Athens, Ohio, what do you think about the parole board? I mean, they're heading in right now. What do you think about the parole board? I mean, they're heading in right now. What do you think about the parole board? I'm very sad that his murder issues is not going to be considered. And I'm also very sad that, you know, he apparently is like, you know, a father figure in prison and tells everybody, oh, you know, do the

right thing. No, we have two people that lost their lives. And to this day, I mean, and it's no one's fault, really, but it's all about OJ. But we have two people that lost their lives and their families that are still reeling from this. And I just think it's the saddest thing ever. Yeah, I mean, I take one look at those crime scene photos of Nicole and Ron, and I think about her children.

Now that I finally have children, I think about them growing up without a mom, Crystal, and it's heartbreaking to me how the children carry that around every day. The parole board hearing is starting in about four minutes. Very quickly, Kevin in Clinton, Arkansas. What's your question, Kevin? Thanks for calling. Oh, hi. I just wanted to say I don't think OJ ought to be let out.

I'm with you, Kevin, in Clinton, Arkansas. Kevin, why do you say that? Well, I just believe that he is guilty of those other crimes, even though that doesn't have anything to do with this. But I think he's a sociopath, psychopath. I don't know what he might do when he does get out again, and if he does. But I think he ought to keep in there until he's 80, and that way he'd be too old to do anything.

I sure hope so, but I can tell you this, Kevin, in Clinton, Arkansas, I remember prosecuting a guy in Atlanta for child molestation. He was in his 70s by the time I got a hold of him. I didn't have any problems putting him in behind bars, but he had been molesting people since his 30s that I knew of, and he was in his mid-70s. So, you know what? It's like the devil.

You know, they never get too old to pull a crime. You know, Kevin, thank you. Thank you for calling in. And another thing you said, Kevin, I want to follow up on, is you said the double murders had nothing to do with this. See, that's what everybody wants us to think. But the parole board is allowed to look at aggravating circumstances and other bad acts it

doesn't have to be a conviction and a civil jury did convict him did find him responsible so they can look at this how can you consider letting joseph simpson walk free knowing what you know i mean if they have any conscience at all they they will keep him behind bars. As I said earlier, I don't know if you could hear me, Kevin in Arkansas, but it's just like saying let's let the devil out of hell because he filed his income taxes on time the last nine years. Oh, no, uh-uh, not on my watch. We are heading to the parole board hearing. Go to Crime Online to watch what happens. We are covering it, streaming it. Everyone, thank you for being with me.

Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. Stay tuned for a special O.J. Simpson Parole Hearing Update edition of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We'll post it soon after the decisions ended down. This is an iHeart Podcast.