Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Couple Toasting Engagement Chased Down, Murdered, PERP TO WALK FREE

Episode Date: March 22, 2022

In May 1983, Stephen Hynes and fiancee', Catherine Moore, are toasting their engagement with champagne and a cookout on the patio of her apartment. The couple is ambushed by Henry Albert Hamilton and Michael Fortson. Both men are armed with pistols and came through bushes onto the patio, something they had been doing often. In fact, the men had ambushed and robbed three others that night alone. As the men try to force the couple inside, Hynes and Moore run away, but the couple trip. Moore gets up and keeps running but looks back and sees Fortson shoot her fiancee'. Moore runs to a neighbor's apartment and calls police.   Hynes, who is shot twice, dies before police arrive. Now, will these perpetrators get parole?Joining Nancy Grace Today: Catherine Moore - victim, former teacher David Hynes - victim's brother Renee Rockwell - Criminal Defense Attorney, Facebook: "Renee.Rockwell" Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, www.drbethanymarshall.com, Netflix show: 'Bling Empire' Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan" Daniel Horowitz - Trial Lawyer, Legal Commentator, LawyersInLafayette.com Alexis Tereszcuk - CrimeOnline.com Investigative Reporter, Writer/Fact Checker, Lead Stories dot Com, Twitter: @swimmie2009  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I want you to imagine when you take your family outside to grill out, maybe steaks, maybe hamburgers, a really festive occasion, you're celebrating something, maybe your recent engagement. You've got your family out there on a beautiful, cool evening, and suddenly out of nowhere, your husband, your boyfriend, your brother grabs your arm and looks over and you look over too and you see a quote, long, shiny, black gun pointing at you and your family out of nowhere. Then you run.

You run to save your life. And you hear gunshots ringing out behind you. And then you find out that everything you love is dead. Just hold that thought. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here

at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. I'm telling you a story, a true story, a story I know intimately. It's the story of a gorgeous young guy, Stephen Hines, and a beautiful young woman, his fiancee, Catherine Moore. It's the story of Stephen Hines' family who have joined together to stop the parole of the killers that gunned down Stephen Hines in the prime of his life. And we, I, here at Crime Stories, we are all joining the fight. Why? Not just because of Stephen's murder, of Catherine's fear, but because the two perps that murdered Stephen

had just gotten out of jail on, guess what? Parole. They served a very, very brief portion of a long sentence, a hard fought case for multiple armed with weapons, robberies, a string terrorizing the city of Atlanta. They go to jail and then they get out. And what do they do as soon as they get out? Get a gun, two of them, and shoot down Stephen Hines. What do you think they're going to do when pardoning paroles lets them walk free? What? Go work at Walmart? Go to Costco as a greeter? Oh, hell no. They're going to get out and get a gun. Please help us stop this parole. With me, not only an all-star panel to dissect what we know now and how we can stop this thing, but with me is a very special guest, Catherine Moore, the fiancé I told you about.

Also with me, David Hines. This is Stephen's brother who has never stopped fighting for justice. With me, Renee Rockwell, criminal defense attorney, joining us out of Atlanta on Facebook, Renee.Rockwell, who attended the trial. Dr. Bethany Marshall, high-profile psychoanalyst to the stars, joining me out of LA at drbethanymarshall.com. Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet, and the host of a new hit series, Body Bags, with Joe Scott Morgan. A longtime friend and colleague, a high-profile lawyer, joining me out of California, Daniel Horowitz. You can find him at lawyersinlafayette.com.

But not only is he a friend and colleague, he is an ardent supporter of fair pardon and parole and has fought against the parole, the release of the man that murdered his wife. But first, to Alexis Tereschuk, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Alexis, am I correct that both Henry Hamilton and Michael Fortson had just gotten out of jail for a string of robberies, armed robberies, where they would put the gun in people's faces to get their wallet, their money, their pocketbook? Isn't that true, Alexis? It is. Henry Hamilton had been out of prison

for three months before the murder. And you know what? He was, he'd been paroled. He served seven and a half years of a 40-year sentence. Well, hold on. Wait a minute, Alexis Tereshchuk. He'd been out three months, that's true. But he had not been twiddling his

thumbs or visiting the library with his library card during those three months. By the time he gunned down Stephen Hines, he had already committed another string of armed robberies with his cousin, Michael Fortson. They weren't visiting the knitting club or playing bingo at the church recreation hall. Oh no, they had already in just three months started armed robbing again. And let me go to you. Daniel Horowitz, you have represented many, many criminals. Isn't it true? And take off your defense hat for just one moment. When many clients get out of jail, they really don't know or don't want to know any other kind of life. They go right back to what they've done in the past. Nancy, that's exactly right.

I actually have a client who pled guilty to a homicide, got out and dedicated his life to providing ways for people who get out to live normal, healthy lives. And he ended up working in the prison system. He was so good at it. But generally, they get out, and they go to their same group of friends. They start using drugs or doing whatever depraved things drove them to be violent in the first place. And with no counseling and no fundamental change in who they are or what made them the way they are, they commit crimes again. It's really not a question of whether they're going to commit crimes, just when they're going to hurt another human being. And you know what, Daniel Horowitz, that was a burden that just was on my back

so heavily as a prosecutor, because I know the statistics. They're not just anecdotal stories we're telling about what happened to us when we tried cases and how many people we put behind bars. It's a statistic, the likelihood that someone will re-offend and the same offense. My point is, if Michael Fortson gets out of jail, if pardon and parole let him walk free, he will do the same thing again. Nancy, if I could jump in about that just for a quick second. These criminals who are just cooling their jets in jail, they're not saying to themselves, oh, I'm going to take responsibility for the crime I committed, whether I killed somebody or I stole property. I feel victimized by the state and by everybody who put me here. I feel like my life

has gotten stolen from me. So I'm going to go back and steal again. And this is the kind of psychopathology that drives people who cannot own their mistakes. They always feel that it's everybody else's fault. But in this type of a, on a grand scale in a criminal justice system, these guys feel that others have offended against them. So they're going to go out and offend. So that's why the cycle repeats and why it's good that this organization is keeping people from getting out on parole earlier than they should. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, I want to go to Catherine Moore, the fiance of Stephen Hines and David Hines, his brother. But I'm hearing in my ear that criminal defense attorney Renee Rockwell has joined us and she's actually in court on a case and has stepped out to give us her recollection of this trial. And let me tell you,

it was hard fought. I tried the co-defendant, Henry Hamilton, myself, and this is not an easy case. Renee, thank you for being with us. Renee Rockwell, criminal defense attorney in Atlanta and multiple jurisdictions. Renee, I'm sure you recall the trial of Henry Hamilton, the very same fact scenario. These two were cousins, co-defendants, as a matter of fact. You were there every single day. You saw the Hines family, all of them. David Hines, did you have eight or nine brothers and sisters?

Well, there were 12 of us. Oh, dear Lord in heaven. I thought I had gone too high. Yeah. Thank you for refreshing my recollection. The Hines family, they're in force to support their brother. It's the last thing they could do for him after his murder. Renee Rockwell, what are your recollections of the trial?

First of all, Nancy, was this not a retrial? Yeah, you're right. The first case, the defendants, Henry Hamilton and Michael Fortson, were tried together. Now, here's the problem with that. Before I go into any constitutional drama, they were tried together, Renee, and they had what we call interlocking statements. In other words, when Hamilton gave his statement, he basically blamed Fortson. When Fortson gave his statement, he blamed Hamilton. When they are tried together, you can't force a defendant on the stand, so you cannot cross-examine that statement. Therefore,

simply put, they should have been tried separately. By the time I got them, I retried one of them. And remember, I only had that hat to say, kiss my bath. We had to reconstruct the entire case. That's why there had been a previous trial and it was reversed by the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals. Now, that puts me back to my original question, Renee. What do you recall of the trial? Nancy, and this is just on a personal note, you had a reoccurring dream about the victim's fiance running up some steps, watching her feet, trying to get help. And she was running up the steps and you could see her blue espadrille. I don't know why you kept remembering that, but it was such a frantic dash for help and aid and nobody was answering the door.

That's what your reoccurring dream was regarding your prime witness. You know, Renee, I had completely forgotten about that until you said it. And it must have been because, Catherine, I remember coming to your beautiful little home in preparation for the trial. And you had all these wonderful pictures of Stephen. And you told me about the night he was murdered. And I don't know how I transposed that. And in the, I did, Renee's right. I would have a recurring dream every night of the trial.

And it was, I was seeing everything through your eyes and running. I know. To me, that was the least frightening thing. But I did, the gunshots had already gone off when I ran in, and I banged on everybody's door. Nobody would answer because of the gunshots. Finally got to the top of the, like, fourth floor, and there was a door leading out to the roof, and it was locked.

And I thought, I've got to take these shoes off because what if they're coming after me and hearing me? And you're right. I took them off and left them there, and I've never worn a pair of Espadrilles again. You know what, Catherine Moore? When at my fiancé Keith's funeral, I remember the smell of carnations nearly made me throw up. I have never tolerated another carnation.

The smell of them to this day makes me just nauseous. You know what, Catherine, can you just start at the beginning? Because you and Stephen were actually toasting your engagement out there, grilling out steaks, as I recall, that night. Right. We were, and we were chatting, and it's a beautiful evening, and like you said, he grabbed my wrist wrist and I thought it was the cat or some beautiful creature that he wanted me to be still for and I turned to look and there was a man crouching with a gun it was a long skinny silver gun and with a cap on and and he's covering his face and he kept saying don't look at me and then he said later

on he said you can come on down now buddy and the other guy came down and then but Stephen had already said the apartment door is wide open you can go in my wallet's in there take whatever you want but they made us stand up and and say now you're going to enter the apartment at which point Stephen kept my wrist and we spun around and ran and I heard like one two three maybe four more shots and at some point we fell forward I noticed he got up so I got up and that's when I saw Stephen trying to headbutt Fortson, who had the gun pointed at him. And as the gun was pointed at him, it went off. I heard the shot go off, and I saw the spark. And that's when I just freaked out and ran up the stairs.

By the time I got back down and begged somebody to let me in, by the time I got back down, everybody, those two were gone and the police were there and it was already cordoned off and it was over. They wouldn't let me see him and they wouldn't even tell me anything about him. But I had a feeling and it was horrible horrible what do you remember of those moments of you running up the stairs uh just panicked like let me call the police call the police get somebody here help us help us um hoping that that somebody would call the police immediately and scare those guys off and that Stephen was still alive. When did you realize that Stephen was not running up with you?

Oh, I knew immediately because as soon as I saw that shot go off and saw the spark and heard the shot, He was still trying to tackle Portman. I didn't stand around and watch them fight. That's when I freaked out and ran upstairs. Why were they trying to force you into the apartment? Do you believe they were going to rape you? I think that's what, I don't have any idea what was in Stephen's mind, but I have a feeling he thought that. But anyway, I don't know. I mean, according to what I learned later, that was their modus operandi. They made people go inside, they pistol whipped them. One time, somebody, Hamilton tried to put a poker in somebody's ear, and they tortured those people.

Oh, gosh. You know what you're reminding me of, Catherine? David Hines, also with me. And everybody on the panel, please, this is not fifth grade English. I'm not going to call on you. Jump in, all right? Please. I want to hear every single bit of remembrance, recollection, knowledge, facts that you have.

Everybody. This is David. Yes. You know, the horror of that night, I mean, Kathy, Kathy Moore, Stephen's love and fiance, has to relive this whole thing because the pardon and parole board in the state of Georgia is considering parole for these two again. And here's the thing. Fortson is up for parole right now. We have a campaign going to communicate with victim services, which is part of the Pardons and Parole Board. Do not let this person out. We demand that you deny parole for Michael Fortson.

But what we have learned to continue the horror that Kathy has to live is that the other guy, Hamilton, who was denied parole in July of last year because of the effort that everybody made to communicate with the Pardons and Parole Board not to let him out deny parole for he will be eligible for parole again again of this year june of this year we're gonna i don't you gotta do this whole thing again okay whoa whoa in june let's just in june let's just burn one bridge at a time okay let's just burn that bridge when we get there let Let's deal with Fortson first, because that's kind of an overload to me, that if we somehow manage to stop the parole of Fortson in just a couple of months, we got to try on Hamilton. Hey, David Hines. Well, it's an overload for us, too.

I just, it's just more than I can take in. And David Hines, this is Stephen Hines, the murder victim's brother. You were just hearing Catherine Moore, his fiance. David, it's not like these were babes in the woods. Remember their rap sheet? Okay, David Hines, you were there when I tried Hamilton. Do you know how hard it was to put back together all those similar transactions that Catherine was talking about. What I'm saying is these guys, Michael Fortson and Henry Hamilton, had been preying on innocent victims for so long.

She described their MO, modus operandi, method of operation. They would approach the victim with a weapon, force him inside. And I remember finding, I was so happy. I found this victim from way back when that had been forced inside and to make him give up what he had. And all he had was some change and like a big jar where he threw his spare change. That's all he had in the house. They jammed a fire poker in his ear until the blood was gushing down his head, beat him up, pistol whipped him, everything. That's just one of the many, many victims victims. These guys have attacked, culminating in murder. And now they're going to get out and walk free and terrorize innocent victims again. Didn't you just hear Catherine's voice?

David Hines. You got an industry of people who cater to these killers. And while everybody else, the victims, are living their lives, this industry that's often government funded or funded by donations, look at these criminals as the victims, and they find that they were wounded as children, and they put together parole packets. In the meantime, the families of the victims have to constantly worry. After five years, seven years, the parole hearings start again. So it's continually victimizing the families of the victims and lionizing the killers who have not changed fundamentally. The entire parole system, Nancy, is wrong. They should have a fixed term of years, whatever is just, and serve it and leave the family alone to rebuild their lives.

And you know, Daniel Horowitz, you led the campaign to keep your wife's killer behind bars. And I've told you this before, Daniel Horowitz, that no one even apprised me, told me, contacted me that my fiance's murderer was going to get out of jail. I wasn't asked to comment, nothing. And I only found out he was out when a viewer emailed me on the public email line at Court TV. That is how I found out the killer had walked free. I mean, it's an outrage. David Hines, what do you recall about the moment you learned what had happened to your brother, Stephen?

Well, my brother Paul called me and told me that Stephen had been killed, and it was beyond any comprehension. He and I were 13 months apart. He's the oldest of 12 siblings. And it was an absolutely horrible shock. And, a navigator on the USS Enterprise in Vietnam. He was a lieutenant, and he was decorated, and he was just a terrific guy. Everybody that knew him liked him. There's a big article written in the paper by Louis Grisard about him and the way he played tennis over at Bitsy Grant. But it was and it is a horrible shock.

And to continue with, I mean, just as Mr. Horowitz said, I mean, it is a real trauma for the family to have to continue this never-ending, it seems like, denial of parole for these two people. You know, David and Catherine, just hearing your voices and talking about this, just, I feel like I'm right back in there trying that case again in front of Judge Eady, as I recall. Judge Eady, just the nicest guy ever. And I would turn around and look at Henry Hamilton and he would look at me like if he could get away with it, he would come right across that council table and choke me dead. Of course, that certainly didn't stop me. But remember that look, Catherine Moore?

I remember it till the day I die. Well, I wasn't allowed in because I was a witness, but I remember. I mean, I know. He's hard. They're scary. They're very scary. Renee Rockwell, do you remember him at all?

I know you remember the trial. I remember him, Nancy. But more importantly, I remember as you figured out that, and this is my Kroger. Oh, yeah. This is happening right by my Kroger, your Kroger, past in front of that crime location. Kingsborough Road. And those gentlemen, and I'm going to say gentlemen, and you're going to go crazy, but those defendants were passing in front of that area, probably casing the place out on

a work route. And Nancy, what's to say that they didn't pass in front of that home a number of times, thinking about who, what, when, where, the next victim, and how many unsolved robberies there may have been based on their MO. And if they get out, is it going to be the same route? It absolutely will, Renee. And my point is when they... I think they were three that night. Yeah, you're right, Catherine.

I was just about to say that. I recall hearing that they had already done three robberies before they got to me and Stephen. You're absolutely right. And if you will recall a careful look at the indictment and other indictments, from the time they got out of jail early on their other string of armed robberies, in just three months, they had already committed another string of armed robberies culminating in Stephen's murder. My point is they got out once and they immediately started doing the very same thing. Is that Joe

Scott Morgan jumping in? Go ahead, Joe Scott. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, when you look at this and, you know, reflecting back to what Renee was just saying about them casing out this area, this is, I think, for them, it's their job. Some people have described prison for habitual offenders as their college. They go in, then they come out, they go back in. I think at some point in time, they can ascend to almost a know, almost a professorial position where they're teaching other people in there how to do these types of things. And they get out and they view themselves as skilled. And they showed up, this is why I say this, they showed up at all of these instances with the ability to perpetrate a horrible crime, such as, you know, Stephen fell victim to.

He was shot by both of these individuals. I don't think folks really understand. Twice. Did you look at the injuries? One in the back. Yeah, one in the back. And, you know, what a gutless thing to do in the first place. He had an unarmed man with his fiancée in the back as she's running. And he's trying to defend her, get her to safety. And, you know, and plus he goes mano a mano against one of these guys.

Catherine had reflected on the fact that he had attempted a headbutt. Oh, yes. Steven turned around and took him on even though he was unarmed. Yeah, he was not shying away from this. And they both showed up with.38 caliber revolvers. And, you know, not to you know be too graphic here but at autopsy i'll put it to you this way they recovered both of these rounds um that uh steven had been shot with and they were from two separate weapons and so this goes to this this bigger idea

you know we talk about things in law and criminal law like intent and all those sorts of things but you show up with a deadly weapon in your hand and you know the effect of it. You wouldn't show up with it if you didn't. And they're going to force people into these positions and you go back to this other idea about this hot poker and torture and all of these horrible things. Yeah, I mean, these guys are to blame, but what about the prison system that miserably failed at identifying how pathological these two were? I think pathological is a really good way to put it, because, Catherine, I don't know if you remember, Renee, you may have driven along with me when I was heading out to one of the similar transactions. David, every victim was in abject fear of death. They would pistol whip, beat, threaten, assault all the victims, and there were many.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. crime stories with nancy grace catherine moore what does this do to you to have to relive steven's murder over and over it well ptsd is real and it triggers it and of course I've had therapy there's been many years I have a happy life but when this is brought back to me I immediately cannot concentrate I don't sleep well I'm you know I'm it I I think about it. The scenes pop up. I see Stephen clearly, knowing what I had and knowing what I lost. And it's a nightmare that's lived over and over. Nancy, this is David. One of the things about Kathy is that, you know, she had to be a witness at all three of those trials. And she had to live, relive every aspect of it during those trials, see Stephen's bloody clothes, the whole thing.

And I mean, on top of what she just got through saying, I mean, it was not just a one-time incident. It goes on and on and on. And it is not fair to her. Let me just read this if I could. And this is from the State Board of Pardons and Parole. It says simply, persons on parole remain under state supervision and control according to conditions which, if violated, allow for re-imprisonment. Well, I mean, they violated it, they were put back in prison, and now the Pardons and Parole Board wants to consider them again. It is absolutely absurd, and it's injustice to Kathy. Well, to everybody that loves Stephen, because a lot of people, hundreds of people loved him. He was salt of the earth. He was a kind guy. He was funny. He was mad about tennis. He's fierce on the tennis court.

He, you know, he's decorated Vietnam veteran hero, was honored because he saved a life. He was wonderful to all kinds of people. He was loved by the whole community that knew him. Kathy, with me is Catherine Moore, Stephen's fiancée, a fantastic teacher, I might add. Catherine, did you ever remarry? No, Nancy, I feel kind of bad about that or guilty, but Nancy, nobody was Stephen. Stephen was everything. Um, we, we had, we had a love of nature in common. We had a love of, um, God, spirituality in common. We,

we, we were kind and compassionate. We had that in common. We liked children. We had a sense of humor in common. And every single person I tried to date, I'd say, nope, nope, not Stephen, not Stephen, not even close, nope. And I just gave up. I just gave up and thought, I'm happy now. I'm happy being single. I'm very happy being single. I have a good life. Nancy, if I could make a comment about that.

A part of post-traumatic stress is avoidance of anything that has to do with the dreaded situation. So, of course, dating and remarrying is going to get associated with potential loss and being re-victimized. So avoidance, I'm only mentioning this because the parole board marrying is going to get associated with potential loss and being re-victimized. So avoidance, I'm only mentioning this because the parole board letting these guys out again and again does re-traumatize victims. And if we reframed these perpetrators, instead of calling them robbers, let's call them serial killers, would they be letting them out as easily? instead of calling them robbers, let's call them serial killers.

Would they be letting them out as easily? Joe Scott Morgan used the term pathological, that these guys are like in a college setting learning to reoffend. And so when I first read the article, I said, oh, you know, two robbers put away for 40 years. They get out after seven and a half years. I thought, yeah, robbery, seven and a half years. I started digging deeper. I was like, oh, no, this is not robbery. Robbery was just a pretext for torture. That's really what this was all about. So if you reframe it as torture and

serial killing, these guys should never, never, never see the light of day. I mean, think about it, Daniel Horowitz, what Bethany's saying, Daniel. They would pistol whip and beat and, for instance, stick the fire poker all the way in somebody's ear until it wouldn't go anymore, threaten to rape, just destroy the whole home. She's right. It wasn't just about getting the wallet. It was about torturing people, hurting them, like pulling the wings off a fly. Just the joy of torturing. Yeah. Nancy, talking personally, you know, the person who killed Pamela studied killing children, studied cutting organs out of people. He was obsessed with what he was going to do.

And when he finally did it, if he had not been caught and. You helped you help catch him, Nancy, with what you did, keeping the story alive. But he would have done it again and again. And of course, at his trial, two school teachers spoke about what a nice young man he was and how kind he was. It wasn't until his girlfriend testified about his fantasies of torturing and killing that the true picture emerged. And I wanted to add another point too, in terms of victims rebuilding their life. What I did, and I've never shared this before, maybe with you privately, Nancy, is I went to the house where Pamela was killed. It was still covered in blood every day for two months.

And I sat there at night alone for two, three hours, screaming, crying, letting every emotion come through every single day just to purge myself of every demon that that event had tried to place inside of me because I didn't want it to sit and fester. It's so hard for victims, and I don't call myself a victim because I'm alive, but for families of victims. And I wasn't call myself a victim because I'm alive, but for families of victims. And I wasn't there, which makes it even worse.

Being there and seeing it happen to me is unimaginable. Well, I think that was good that you did that to get it all out, but I was still teaching at the time, and I had a job to do. And I went in there and I had to do my job. And I was in a fog sitting there at one point and one little boy came up to me, very smart little boy. And he asked me a question. He needed some help finding something. And I looked at him and I thought, this boy doesn't know what I'm going through. This boy doesn't know trauma. He's a young kid. He's an eight-year-old boy. He deserves a fully functioning teacher. And that kind of snapped me out of it at that point. So from that point forward, I dedicate, you know, I just go in

that classroom every single year and close that door and focus on those kids and i'm and god is watching out god is watching out for you you are protected and you will love katherine you are reminding me so much of what happened after keith's murder for me i became a prosecutor that's how I know you and how I know David Hines and the whole Hines family. Laura, who became my girlfriend, because of prosecuting the co-defendant, Henry Hamilton. I shut everything out and concentrated on nothing but getting through law school, making law review, getting a job, getting a job until I could get with the DA's office and start putting bad guys behind bars and helping victims. And that's all I cared about for so long, for so long, almost my whole life. And guys, we're not commiserating about our pain and what violent crime victims go through. We are asking for help,

and that is very rare that I ask anyone for help, but we need your help. The Hines family needs your help. Please contact the Georgia Board of Pardon and Parole and stop the release of Michael Fortson. They are at VictimServicesAtPAP.Georgia.gov. Repeat. victim, one victim, victimservicesatpap.georgia.gov, victimservicesatpap.-6668. Repeat, 404-651-6668. Please help us stop the release of Michael Fortson. Don't let all of the hard work, the pain, and the suffering this family has gone through. Be for naught. We wait as justice unfolds.

Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.