Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - CREEPY ITEMS SEIZED FROM KOHBERGER'S HOME AND CAR

Episode Date: March 3, 2023

The search warrants for both Bryan Kohberger's white Hyundai Elantra and his parent's home have been unsealed. The documents show a knife, a Glock 22 .40 caliber handgun with three empty magazines, a pocket knife, black face masks and gloves, numerous articles of dark clothing, and criminology books among the list of items detectives seized. Police also seized numerous parts of the vehicle itself, including the brake pedal, the gas pedal, and more. Those search warrants had been under a 60-day seal, and now we know more than 60 items were seized from the home in the Poconos alone. Joining Nancy Grace today: Dale Carson - High Profile Attorney (Jacksonville), Former FBI Agent, Former Police Officer (Miami-Dade County), Author: "Arrest-Proof Yourself" Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert, Founder: Cold Case Investigative Research Institute in Atlanta, GA.; Twitter: @ColdCaseTips; Host of new podcast: "Zone 7" Chris McDonough - Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective, coldcasefoundation.org,  Host of YouTube channel: "The Interview Room" See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. In the last hours, a bombshell in the Brian Koberger case, we are now learning all the details about search warrants executed in the case of four slain students. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Station and Sirius XM 111. These items have been under seal for 60 days but now we are getting a look at what police have been sitting on this entire time so much they couldn't tell us but now we know take a listen to our friends at WNEP those search warrants were placed under a 60-day seal by a judge in Monroe County those 60 days are now up and two new search warrants were released today

detailing exactly what investigators took from Koberger's parents home in Chestnut Hill Township and from his Hyundai Elantra. According to court paperwork more than 60 items were seized from the home in the Poconos. Among the items were a knife, gun, a cell phone, black gloves and a mask. Officers also took clothing, shoes, and personal notes. Guys, we are understanding that Pennsylvania police have released a full list regarding an unsealed warrant, including items taken from a pre-dawn raid. Do you guys remember that? Because I sure do. Take a listen to our cut three, our friends at WPVI. Pennsylvania courts unsealed the warrants today, showing the first glimpses of what investigators took from Brian Koberger's

Pocono area home during a search on December 29th. According to the search warrant receipt, the items seized were medical style gloves, clothing, a pair of black and white size 13 Nike shoes, and also a swab of Koberger's DNA. The search warrant itself, all 31 pages, is extensive and approved this long list of items to be seized, including everything from blood and bodily fluids to data on smart devices to his car and shoes since a footprint was found at the scene. Knives, a gun, ammunition, books, a laptop, a cell phone, a quote, note from Brian to dad, and so much more taken from the home in that pre-dawn raid. With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now, but first, to Cheryl McCollum,

founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute and crime scene expert. She is a star of a new hit podcast, Zone 7. Cheryl, what have you learned from the disclosure of the search warrant return on Koberger? Well, they got a flashlight. They've got some chemical resistant gloves. They took things like a book where he underlined some things on page 118. But of course, I'm dying to know what that book is and what he underlined. They also got things

from his vehicle, specifically the gas pedal and the brake, the floor mat, the headrest, the seatbelt, the cushion. I think, again, they are placing victim-centered items at his parents' home, in his vehicle, and at his apartment. So if you look at the things that they took, it appears to me that those search warrants were very targeted and very directed. Police also seized a shovel from the accused killer's white Hyundai Elantra, Ziploc bags, hiking boots, and a wrench. We know they also, this is Pennsylvania police, removed car seats, a door panel, and the brake and gas pedals from the vehicle for testing too. And obviously to you, Chris McDonough joining me from the interview room on YouTube, former homicide detective has handled well over 300 homicides. Clearly,

they believe that the night of the murders when Koberger allegedly left the murder scene, which is extremely bloody, he had blood on his tennis shoes. And when he touched the brake or the gas pedal, he left behind the victim's blood DNA. That's got to be what they're doing, Chris McDonough. Absolutely, Nancy. And so they're trying to connect that vehicle, obviously, to Brian and then back to the crime scene. And the other interesting thing they took out of the car is the seatbelt. And, you know, they're obviously they're looking for any type of blood forensics evidence with inside of that car.

They also grabbed a vacuum, a Craftsman HVAC, in the garage at the residence, which I'm assuming is going to correlate back to the surveillance they had him under while he was cleaning the vehicle. You know what's interesting with me is Dale Carson, high-profile lawyer out of Jacksonville, but also a former Fed with the FBI. Dale Carson, it's great to have the three of you on. You know where I am right now. I'm sitting right outside the Colleton County Courthouse where we've been listening to closing arguments in the Alex Murdoch case. And I heard the SLED, South Carolina Law Enforcement Division, reamed a new rear end because listen to this Dale they seized a shirt Murdoch was wearing they looked at it and they thought we better test it for blood

they thought there were possibly microscopic spots of blood spatter well it turned out it wasn't blood spatter and today in arguments, the defense had a field day arguing that the state had somehow hidden evidence by not producing the shirt. But it didn't have any blood on it. It had no evidentiary value. The point I'm getting at, Dale Carson, is we hear in this case, the Coburger case, cops took the Craftsman HVAC. They took a note from Brian to Dad. They took a wrench. Here in this case, the Coburger case, cops took the Craftsman HVAC. They took a note from Brian to Dad. They took a wrench.

They took all sorts of items. But if they didn't take them, they would be damned. And if they do take them and they are not of evidentiary or probative value, they will also be damned. I mean, there's really no way out for law enforcement. Well, the list I looked at, Nancy, was by an old FBI agent, and it's handwritten. There's no technology involved in that. That means somebody sat down, as should happen in a good crime scene investigation, logged everything, and is responsible for everything. And quite frankly, if you get the opportunity to conduct a search for a post-murder's home, you want to get everything you can possibly pick up, which is obviously one of the critical alleged failings of SLED. But here we've got the

vacuum cleaner, we've got stuff from the car, we've got a handgun that may be connected to an unsolved homicide. We've got stubble that have been used to bury people in his home area instead of way out in Idaho. So there's a whole lot more that the investigators are going to be able to identify and determine based on what they seized during these searches. Well, I agree with all that, but Dale Carson, you did a really... Have you had professional dance classes? Because you just tangoed right out of my question. Cheryl McCollum, the cops are damned if they do, and they're damned if they don't. If they get evidence that turns out not to be probative, they get reamed out at trial.

If they don't get the evidence, they are skewered. So better err on the side of caution and take everything that could remotely be involved in the case and then sort it out later. Always. Nancy, you and I have both been standing at a crime scene where we decided we're going to take something, not because we know how it relates to this crime but we might know how it relates later if something is odd if something doesn't belong or doesn't fit in a scene i'm taking it if there's something that looks like this could be a note this book with some underlined words could mean something later. You know, the seatbelt may have DNA on it.

I'm taking everything. Hey, you know what you just reminded me of? You just, Cheryl, reminded me of Brian Laundrie and his idealistic, self-absorbed musings in his notebook after he murdered Gabby Petito. And that actually revealed a lot. And at the time you could hear a naysayer say, oh you took his private notebook. That was personal. It was a confession for Pete's sake. So people are going to argue about the note from Brian to dad, Brian Koberger, to his father. But we don't know what that note says, and we don't know what could be read into that note.

So I agree with you, Cheryl. When in doubt, you have to seize everything, sort it out later, and then just take the hits in the courtroom. Guys, for those of you that are just— You want it for the handwriting samples that it creates. There are all sorts of reasons to have even a modest note like that to make a determination later. That is a really good thought, Dale Carson. Now, I don't know of any note that is connected to this case, but we have very little understanding of all the evidence, the treasure trove of evidence that the state has managed to marshal to this point.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. For those of you just joining us, in the last hours, a search warrant, and more importantly, its return. A search warrant is an affidavit that is normally sworn to under oath in front of a judge or magistrate by a cop, a detective, an undercover. It could be a number of people within law enforcement that tells the judge why that cop believes a certain car, warehouse, home, trunk, container should be searched. The judge either agrees or disagrees. PC probable cause that the search is reasonable, a reasonable, let's just say, invasion into the target's Fourth Amendment right to privacy. After you do the search, after the search is conducted, someone on the investigative team will fill out a search return. In other words, what, if anything, was seized? And it must be meticulously listed.

In the last hours, we get a return on a pre-dawn raid on the Brian Koberger family home in the Poconos. The return, three knives, a shovel, a handgun, a black ski mask, among the evidence taken from Koeberger's parents' home, and from his white Hyundai, his Elantra. Cheryl McCollum, what more do we know? Nancy, we also have evidence of a leafy green substance. Of course, they would make you think marijuana. They took hiking boots. They took tire irons.

They took hiking boots. They took tire irons. They took goggles. They took all kinds of things that looks like he would be wearing something, you know, as he's disposing of evidence. They even took band-aids. So again, if he was harmed in any way and was bleeding, let's say one of the victims scratched him as they were fighting back because we knew they had defensive wounds and he maybe took care of you know his injuries in some way they even took the room key from the comfort inn they've got his car registration of course they've got the note and all that sort of thing they took a phone charger so they're they've to me the list of items suggest again that they are painting a picture of they know exactly what he did in the order that he did it.

And they're going to be able to lay this evidence out at trial for the jury to see these are maps. You and I talked about maps from day one. And I try to tell everybody this is a professional stalker. He will not just have information on his phone. He will have information in notebooks and up on the walls and maps is one of the things that I keyed in on because this guy, just like somebody planning a wedding, you have all the stuff in a diary. You've got things on the calendar. You've got magazines you're saving. He did the same type of thing. He could tell you all about these young people. He not only stalked them 12 times before the murder, but he

went back to the scene of the crime afterwards. Cheryl, we also want his search history on the internet and on his phone. Amen. Absolutely. 100%. Cheryl, you mentioned a key to a hotel room. Explain. Well, that's going to, again, be something that they're going to be able to show the jury where he was, why he was there, and why it's critical that he kept that key. They're going to show all of that. And something else, Nancy, that everybody needs to understand, if you charge your phone inside your car, your car has a black box. And when you plug that charger straight into your car, everything on your cell phone goes to that car's black box. So even if he were to throw that phone in the Atlantic Ocean,

we would be able to get the information straight off the phone. Hey guys, take a listen to our cut one. This is Jillian Mele at WPVI. A lot of new information came down this morning when it comes to the murder of those four University of Idaho students. All of this as those search warrants were unsealed for both Brian Koberger's white Hyundai Elantra and his parents' home in Albratesville. A knife, a Glock 22.40 caliber handgun with three empty magazines, a pocket knife, black face masks and gloves, numerous

articles of dark clothing and criminology books are among a laundry list of items detectives seized from the Pocono area home on Lambsden Drive. That's not all. I want to hear the rest, Jack. If you could play our cut two, also from WPVI. The affidavit released in late December described what police discovered when they entered the Idaho home after the murders. A tan leather knife sheath was found laying on the bed next to two of the victims. The surviving roommate described seeing a figure dressed in all black clothing and a mask, adding that they were athletically built with bushy eyebrows. Now what we also learned today from those newly unsealed documents is that in that white Hyundai Elantra,

detectives found a number of things, some of which include gloves, boots, and a shovel. They also seized numerous parts of the vehicle itself, including the brake pedal, gas pedal, and more. Okay, Cheryl McCollum, Dale Carson, and Chris McDonough with me analyzing this return that we have just gotten our mitts on. I'm looking directly at the police return. And if you would look at number 21 of the items they retrieved, new balance shoes. What do you make of that, Chris McDonough? Well, of course, they're looking for any kind of connection to the crime scene. If there's a blood track that is individually identifiable, meaning there's a cut in one of the treads that's identical to that shoe, then they've got a direct connection to the crime scene. Was that Dale or Chris? That was Dale. Great answer.

Stop it, guys. They're looking for that diamond pattern, Nancy, out in front of the surviving victim's door. And if we go down also to item 44, that they collected a motherboard, they hit up a motherboard, which is, you know, for obvious reason, remember his undergraduate studies is, you know, technology. But I find number 45, very interesting, Washington State University paperwork. Just out of curiosity, what's everybody think? I think they're trying to establish a timeline by looking at that paperwork as when he could have had his earliest contact, potentially, or contact point with these victims.

You know, that's interesting because the actual printers today store that data. So you could find out specifically when it erupted out of the computer. Okay, that's really smart. I didn't realize, I guess I knew, but I hadn't taken into account that a printer maintains the information that it printed. Is that what you're saying? Yes, the Russians used to take our printers and take them home and download all the data off of our printers. We had to be very careful with that. That said, let's talk about world politics later. I want to get back to this return. When you mentioned earlier, I think it was

Chris or it may have been Dale Carson, item 44, the motherboard. Why do you find that specifically to be of interest um i found that interesting nancy because of a couple of things one uh if there is still stored data on that and he would have been aware of that post-homicide then of course he would have removed that motherboard out of you know maybe a hard drive and or type of, you know, some type of frame inside of his apartment, maybe right in the computers that they removed. So he may have taken that because and left it in his car. So it may have come from the apartment in Washington or in the university and ended up in his car in Pennsylvania. The fact that it's in there tells us they are looking for a digital footprint that he

may have been trying to conceal. Chris, for people that don't know what that is, if they're not a computer geek, they may not know what is a motherboard yeah well a motherboard is a it holds you know all the the pieces the running parts of the computer i.e it's the brains of the computer the ram memory is what you want the non-bottle memory out of that chip exactly cheryl mccollum Did you see number 57, tailor cutlery knife with sheath, clothes in laundry basket? They're looking for DNA. They're looking for blood that may still be on the clothing, even though it may have been washed. I mean, practically every line is something significant.

Every single item is significant because, again, you're showing the jury, potential jury later on, that he's got a propensity for these types of knives that are in leather sheets. That's unusual. You're also showing the item of clothing that the victim describes. You've got it. the item of clothing that the victim describes. You've got it. And again, going back to the shoes, yes, they're looking for the pattern on the bottom, obviously, but they're also looking for when he changed clothes and changed shoes,

the new shoes could also have blood on them from the floorboards and the brake pedal and the gas pedal. So they're painting a picture of, it's quite obvious what they're looking for. Cheryl, that is some good thinking. Even if he changed shoes, the new shoes could have picked up those blood particles left, transferred from the old shoes onto the gas pedal and the brake pedal. Guys, there's more. Take a listen to our cut number six, our friends at NBC. In a previous search of Kohlberger's apartment in Washington state, investigators also gathered possible hair strands, chemical resistant gloves, items that had red and brown stains, and a computer tower. In December, Kohlberger had driven home with his father to Pennsylvania

from Washington State University, where he was pursuing his PhD in criminal justice. On that trip, the pair were pulled over twice in Indiana weeks before the arrest. How y'all doing today? They were driving a white Hyundai Elantra, the same type of car police say was captured on surveillance video near the scene of the murders. Kohlberger School, less than 10 miles from the University of Idaho. I also find interesting that police seized a black mask which is not dissimilar to the black ski mask described by the surviving roommate who saw the killer leaving wearing a mask. Now,

I'm curious. A black mask, if it's a ski mask, would have covered up i'm just trying to figure out did she say he had bushy eyebrows but the eyebrows would have shown through a ski mask right everybody here in the studio that's basically you sydney is shaking no no no but a ski mask has eye openings does anybody else agree i know you're listening don a ski mask has eye openings. Does anybody else agree? I know you're listening. Don't ski masks have eyes? Yes. Everybody but you, Sydney.

So, she, you know, Cheryl, I had in my mind when she said a mask, I thought she meant a COVID mask. That was my first thought but I'm seeing here they seized a black ski mask well not dissimilar to the black ski mask described by the roommate how did you take it Cheryl what did you what type of mask did you think the killer was wearing I thought it was a mask like you'd rob a bank so a ski mask and what I'm getting now from the list that y'all are talking about, the goggles, would that have been something that he would have worn to stop the blood spatter from getting in his eyes? You know, you scare me sometimes, Cheryl McCollum. I'm glad you're on the right side of the law. Go ahead, Dale. There's no report that he used goggles.

And certainly the gal who did see him at the site of the killings didn't mention that. But of course, they took them. They're on the list. And I'm just saying that is unusual enough that now my interest is piqued about those goggles. Yeah. OK, let me think about that. Chris McDonough, from what we know, what we've been told so far, all the intel we've gotten, do you believe the killer was wearing goggles, protective goggles?

I never picked that up, but they're seizing goggles here, so obviously they think there's a chance. There's always a possibility, but it's probably improbable, Nancy. I mean, I think Cheryl, Dale, and I would all agree with you that this guy was so sophisticated. Remember, we keep going back to how mechanical he was. And if you look at item number 57, for an example, I can't read what the, I think it says tailor. And it says knife with leather sheath. So they are, this search warrant tells us a whole bunch of things about, you know, what they're specifically going after. They have a sheath at the scene.

So now they're trying to correlate, is this a habit pattern of this guy, you know, to continue by knives with sheaths. And then if we look at some of the knives that they collected, the Smith and Wesson knife, for an example, I went and did a little research before the program today, and they have fixed blade knives as well. And so I think what this is telling me, and I'd be curious to hear what Cheryl and Dale think about it, are they trying to correlate this guy's behavior in relationship to these knives as a whole? And if so, you know, does it differ from the type of sheath that was left at the crime scene? Because that's going to be an argument. That is exactly what I was wondering.

What if Chris McDonough, the sheath that they are taking out of his Pocono, his parents Pocono home or his car. We have a Taylor, it looks like T-A-Y-L-O-R cutlery knife with leather sheath. What if it's the same type of sheath that was found in the murder scene? I mean that would be pretty damning in my mind. i mean what's the likelihood that this guy has the same exact sheath and knife or the same knife i mean we never located the knife we don't know specifically what it is so it could be the very same type of knife this goes back to what i was saying before you don't always know why it fits yet but you take it anyway this could very well be something that's got biological

evidence from another victim and that way when they're asked in court did you ever look for additional victims they can say yes we did we tested other knives that could have been used in other homicides you know when you said you were interested about the flashlight i am2 was the flashlight that is this the flashlight that was used the night of the murders and if so is there any biological material still on it i mean cheryl you have to look at an item like a flashlight under a microscope to see if anything is in a groove or you know the on off button it could be there without him realizing it's still there that's right and even if he's wearing those gloves nancy he would have had to put that flashlight somewhere else while he committed the murders once he was inside and

when he touched it again and moved it again you're talking about the lock card principle times five i mean it's overwhelming all the transferring that's going to be going on with all of this evidence. The blood, you know, sweat and different things that are going to be on not just the sheets, not just the sheets, not just the victims, not the perpetrator, not just his car, but everywhere. You're going to see evidence of those victims inside his apartment. You're going to see evidence of those four victims inside his parents home i mean it's a standard that we all look for another thing on that list it talks about fiber a small fiber is on that list that's real key to me they they did that deep of a search when they served these arms. Hey Jackie, let's hear our friends at NBC and Cut Six one more time. I want to focus on these hair strands. In a previous

search of Kohlberger's apartment in Washington state, investigators also gathered possible hair strands, chemical resistant gloves, items that had red and brown stains, and a computer tower. In December, Kohlberger had driven home with his father to Pennsylvania from Washington State University, where he was pursuing his Ph.D. in criminal justice. On that trip, the pair were pulled over twice in Indiana weeks before the arrest. How y'all doing today? They were driving a white Hyundai Elantra, the same type of car police say was captured on surveillance video near the scene of the murders.

Kohlberger's school less than 10 miles from the University of Idaho. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. In a previous search of Kohlberger's apartment in Washington State, investigators also gathered possible hair strands, chemical-resistant gloves, items that had red and brown stains, and a computer tower. In December, Kohlberger had driven home with his father to Pennsylvania from Washington State University, where he was pursuing his Ph.D. in criminal justice. On that trip, the pair were pulled over twice in Indiana weeks before the arrest.

How y'all doing today? They were driving a white Hyundai Elantra, the same type of car police say was captured on surveillance video near the scene of the murders. Coburger's school less than 10 miles from the University of Idaho. Dale Carson, if even one of the hairsres found in Koberger's apartment match one of these of his own personally hand-drawn sketches of himself. He'd sit in front of a mirror and draw himself with his disguises on. If Kloberger was into these sort of serial killers. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I gotta let that soak in. What did you just say about Ted Bundy dressing up in outfits and drawing pictures of himself?

That's exactly right. He would sit in front of the mirror and hand sketch himself with a mask on, his arm in a sling, so he could get a feel for how he looked. And certainly, Koberger would have had access to things like that. I don't know whether he had those particular sketches, but we know he emulates people connected with these kinds of crimes. And we know that. So it's quite possible that he would take that mask and the other, the knife and those sorts of things and play with them in front of a mirror so he could look at himself to behave that way. And that's where photographs become so important in the phone usage, in the RAM memory of that computer motherboard that we're talking about, to see whether he

actually displayed himself. I mean, we know from the sex crimes point of view, and I realize that he's not been charged with that. But from that perspective, these individuals achieve satisfaction from looking at themselves and how impressive they think they look with that narcissistic angle. Okay, you know what? I kind of blacked out when you said Ted Bundy would dress up in different outfits and then draw pictures of himself. Cheryl McCollum, what would you think if you walked in on your husband and he had some outfit on and he was drawing pictures of himself? Why does it have to be my husband? Why can't it be David? Because I'm picking on you right now, drawing pictures of himself. Listen, here's the bottom line. I think what the point Dale is making for me is it does show a level of ego that is obviously concerning, but it also points to what you can glean from these searches. They should be looking for sketchbooks.

They should be looking for things on his phone. They should be looking for items that he bought to discuss. Yes. How many times, and I'll bring the guys in on this to Dale Carson, Chris McDonough. But first to you, Cheryl McCollum, how many times do you believe Brian Koberger put on his outfit that he was going to wear the night of the murders and checked it and looked in the mirror oh what i think he thought about it i think he fantasized about it i think he put it on and off repeatedly i think he might have even timed himself how fast he could get it on and get it off because he knew he was going to have to change clothes no doubt in my mind that's magic cheryl for you you get it on and get it off because he knew he was going to have to change clothes no doubt in my

mind that's magic cheryl for you you get it girl okay dale carson i know you somehow have to work sex into every single possible topic you even worked it into a scenario of walking into the grocery store and on one side of the wedding magazines and the other side of the penthouse. But go ahead. I'm ready. How many times do you think Koeberger, if in fact he's guilty, tried on his outfit? It's like a girl in the dressing room with those mirrors that are all around looking at herself from every angle. Well, our wives do this all the time. They sit in front of a mirror and they put on a disguise, right? I didn't say that, by the way. with all of these convicted felons about? What did you feel at the time of the crime?

How did you pick out your victim? How did you exit the scene? All of his questions, he's living vicariously through these other criminals, and then his image of himself committing these crimes. He fulfilled his fantasy. You are 1,000% right right nancy and and you know that's his right that's his super ego right that's id speaking there and if we look on the search

warrant uh when dale mentioned the drawing look at item number 34 i can't make out what the third word word is but it says just something okay no problem man oh my goodness a man something drawing exactly word drawing I can't this you know the fantasy a's hand drawing it says hand yeah i could see that i could see hand drawing of what oh okay this is scary that's fitting in exactly what you said about bundy you know everything i look at is a connection back to the murders guys there's medical documents there's a craftsman's I guess that's the HVAC there's the note from him to his father everything can be related back so what are they doing right now Cheryl with all the evidence

we now know that they have seized Nancy they are putting it in their war room on separate tables and they are painting a picture with every item. What was pre and post, what was during. And they're going to, again, they're going to tell the story with every object. It's not enough to say, oh, we've got this type of knife in a sheath. they're going to tell the story. Why this knife? Why a leather sheath? Why would he drop it and leave it behind? Why the blood in the floor mat? Why these tennis shoes have a little bit of biological evidence in the groove, but it's not the same pattern that we saw in the snow? They're going to be able to do that. We do it all the time. You're one of the best I've ever seen at it, but you know what you and I would do if this was our that. We do it all the time. You're one of the best I've ever seen at it.

But you know what you and I would do if this was our case. We would be in that war room. We would touch every single item and put it in story form, starting with once upon a time. I'm just looking at, they even took, not only did they take the brake pedal, the gas pedal they took the floor mats used water bottles a reflective vest they took the seat belt boot explain that Dale Carson the seat belt boot which I interpret to mean the area from which the seat belt seat belt pulls out well it's where it retracts is what you want. Because anywhere near the shoulder where you're going to have blood spatter if the knife

went down like we suspect that it did, and any of that area, he could not have remembered to clean. Now remember, you know, they've taken the vacuum cleaner. He probably used that shop vac to clean out his car. So they'll take that filter. They'll look for any hairs, fiber, DNA connected with the crime scene. They'll do the same thing with a

seatbelt. It just makes it easier to get to something rather than going to a vacuum cleaner. Hey, I just had a thought. You know what you said about the seatbelt? When it said seatbelt boot, I thought that meant the storage area in your car you pull the seatbelt out of. But now I'm thinking it's, you know, Cheryl, when you reach up and you grab that part of the seatbelt where there's usually a latch of some sort and you pull it down, that reminds me of a light switch.

So often criminals forget to clean the light switch. And that's like on a seatbelt. You grab it and you pull it over. That would be a perfect place to get a blood transfer. It's a brilliant place. Let me tell you something else that leaks off the page to me that they took out of the Hyundai. They took seven quarters, 36 dimes, 32 nickels and eight pennies. He didn't clean that money and I bet you there's biological evidence on them. I wonder if

he had to go through any tolls along the way aren't there a lot of tolls going from uh there from his apartment at washington state university all the way across the country to the poconos they had to go through tolls to use that change get it and touch it yeah i agree with you by then he would have already been showered and cleaned and it wouldn't matter he did not have to use the toll the night of the murders to get back to his apartment. I've driven it myself. It's no time at all. If you're the supervisor, you look at your agent and you say, take everything you possibly can out of that car. Don't leave anything. And so that's the way that system works.

Because once you have access to it and you got a chain of custody, you can't go back later. And as to Cheryl's point, you know, that's why you collect everything that you can, everything that you see, everything that you can possibly imagine. And it involves technical stuff, taking out ceiling tiles, looking in bathroom toilets. You know, all those kinds of things are necessary in the function of good crime searches. And we're not seeing that today. People have referred to technology. They think everything's just technical. And the old traditional investigative techniques have been lost with my generation. You know, I'm glad to see that they took the power cable, Chris McDonough,

because we know he had his phone turned on at a certain point when he leaves the crime scene, according to police. And he is just anal compulsive enough. You know what, Cheryl? My husband, David, can have power at 99% on his phone. But the first thing he does when he gets in the car is plugs in the power cable. I wouldn't be surprised if he did the same and they got the power cable. Yeah, we are creatures of habit.

There's no doubt. And again, this tells about his personality. He is not going to let that phone drain out. And that's why it's interesting when the phone goes to airplane mode and it's shut off just a couple of periods of time. And you and I hammer all the time, patterns, patterns, patterns. He doesn't do that any other time going backwards for months and months and months. He never does that. Guys, we know of three knives, a shovel, handgun, black ski mask among the many, many items seized.

The search warrant in the last hours relating to the Coburger quadruple murder case has been unsealed. We wait as justice unfolds. Thank you to my three incredible guests, Cheryl McCollum, Dale Carson, Chris McDonough. And thank you to you for being with us. Goodbye, friend. This is an I Heart Podcast.