Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Crime Con: BTK SERIAL KILLER MYSTERY DEEPENS

Episode Date: October 11, 2023

Serial killer Dennis Rader, also known as BTK, is serving a life sentence for 10 confessed murders, but his own writings have possibly connected him to more.  In his journals, Rader made references to "projects," murders he fantasized about. One of those projects was abducting a woman from a laundromat. Teen Cynthia Dawn Kinney disappeared from her family-owned laundromat in 1979.   Rader was allegedly spotted leaving the location with two women around the time the cheerleader vanished according to Osage County Sheriff Eddie Virden. Virden recently led a search of Rader's former property in the area. Not all evidence recovered has been made public, however, Virden did share a pantyhose ligature found buried on the property.   The investigation now turns to proving a connection between Rader and murders resembling those logged in Rader's journals.  Joining Nancy Grace Today: Anne Bremner – Trial Lawyer, Legal Analyst, & Author: “Justice in the Age of Judgment;” Twitter: @annembremner; Instagram: @Anne_Bremner Caryn L. Stark –  Psychologist, Renowned TV and Radio Trauma Expert and Consultant; Instagram: carynpsych, FB: Caryn Stark Private Practice Sheryl McCollum  – Forensics Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder; Host of New Podcast: "Zone 7;" Twitter: @ColdCaseTips  Joe Scott Morgan – Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, “Blood Beneath My Feet,” and Host: “Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;” Twitter: @JoScottForensic Nicole Partin – CrimeOnline.com Investigative Reporter; Twitter: @nicolepartin  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Bind, torture, kill. That is how Dennis Rader wants us to address him. B-T-K. Bind, torture, kill. reason we are devoting this time and this energy to his case is because I believe that there are other victims' cases that have not been solved that are out there. And I know this doesn't make sense at first, but I'm one of the lucky crime victims family. I know who murdered my fiance. I know what happened.

A lot of people have never known what happened to their mother, their sister, their daughter, their husband. They just know that in one moment, everything ends. And your life as you know it, your dreams, your hopes, your plans, your world is gone. That's how I felt at first when I was told Keith had been murdered. Even now sometimes doesn't seem real.

But I do know that my hopes and dreams ended that day. If it had not been for the good Lord, I would have nothing, nothing after his murder. So imagine what these people feel. All these years have passed, and they don't know what happened to their mom, their daughter. Can you even imagine that? Horrible. And that is why we're here today.

And I want to thank you for being with us. Okay, let's start at the beginning. You know Nicole Parton joining us. Okay, let's start at the beginning. You know Nicole Parton joining us, the Forensic Brain Trust, Joe Scott Morgan. And you know what? He's not just an incredible death investigator. He's been on thousands of death scenes and many of them homicide. But do you know he got Jacksonville State University to open its doors to us at Crime Stories and my home, Fox Nation. And he actually did a recreation of the murder of Ellen Greenberg, which was ruled a homicide, even though she had 22 stab wounds, including to the back and the back of her head and her back of her neck, and some post-mortem after she's dead. The stabbing kept going. It's not a suicide. He reenacted the whole thing with me. I mean, her kitchen, everything.

He did that for us. My longtime friend and colleague, renowned psychologist Karen Stark. That's Karen with a C. High profile lawyer and longtime friend, Ann Bremner out of Seattle. This lady, I'm telling you, amazing. And look at her. Really? And on the end, Cheryl McCollum and I have been not just co-workers, but friends since when I first started the district attorney's office. My recollection of first meeting her, of course, everything she says is a lie. But that said, my first memory of Cheryl, we were at a big, big event. I was working with the Batter Women's Center as a volunteer at night, and had been for years.

And we helped start a program. They didn't even have cell phones, that we would now start giving cell phones, was it in conjunction with AT&T or then Bell South, to these women. They were like this big, for them to call a hotline to get help. And we were so happy.

I still remember the number, 800-873-1766, I think was the hotline number. That said, Cheryl was there in the midst of it. Now, your recollection is completely different. So the truth is, it was 2 47 in the morning. That's possible. I'm at a crime scene with Jim Burge and all these folks in the GBI and Atlanta police department. And this little bitty sports car comes flying up. And I mean, flying. I used Honda. It's what that was. Right up to the crime scene tape. This little bitty person jumps out with a big voice. What do you got? What do you have? What can I do? How can I help?

And I was like, what is that? And Jim Birch went, you don't know Nate Segrace. She's a prosecutor. And I'm like a prosecutor. I've never seen a prosecutor outside the courthouse in my life. And here she was out at this time of the morning, ready to help, ready to do whatever we needed. Well, we had a house that had some evidence, but it had a detached garage. Well, honey, we were about to get in that thing because we knew that garage held that money tree. And Nancy went, wait, wait, you better stop. You need a second potential search warrant because that might have even a different address because it's detached. It could ruin your whole case. So she saved that case for us and taught us a lot.

But she is the first prosecutor that I ever saw on scene. And that's how we first met. Let me just say right now, I don't believe that because if somebody has a shed or an outhouse or whatever they have, a storage unit, that's called a curtilage. C-U-R-T-I-L-A-G-E under the law. And you don't need a second search warrant for that. However, if it was at a different address, like beside, okay, maybe, maybe you're telling the truth. Guys, I've got one more group of people I want you to meet. My, here she comes, the camera hog, Jackie Howard, our executive producer, and also beauty and brains, also another beauty and brains, Kelly, as I like to say, skiing, because that's the only

way my phone will call you with me yelling at it. Please stand up. She's gorgeous and she's brilliant. Sidney Wilson. Is Chris Balfe here? Maybe. I do know my partner in Bloodline Detectives, John Terenzio, is here. Where are you, Terenzio? And ladies, he's single. He needs all the help I can give him. There he is. So now you know our family. I want to talk about some other families that we may never meet. The families of BTK's victims. You know, even today, when I think about the trial of the guy that murdered Keith, I don't want to think about it. It's still nightmares, still cold sweats. I mean, it never goes away. It's changed the way I live. I went over, how long was it, Karen Stark? Oh gosh, almost 30 years before I could think about marriage again. And I almost died in childbirth because I waited so long. Yeah, you told me, you all told me. It affects everything, even the way

I raise them. Sadly, I'm that mom that's driving through the parking lot at lunchtime. I'm not afraid what they're going to do. I don't think they're going to run off and vape or do drugs or drink. I'm afraid what somebody might do to them, because it's happened before, and in my world, it will happen again. Think about these people, what they've been through and are going through. And the people that we don't know about yet. B-T-K. May he rot in hell. That said, Nicole Parton. Why do we believe there may be more female victims, murder victims of Dennis Rader, the dog catcher?

I think a lot of it comes from the evidence that he left behind. There's the journal. He left a very detailed notebook journal of victims. He classified them as projects. Guys, do any of you have a diary, a journal as they call it now? Or I like to scrapbook. And I put everything in there, like stubs, pictures, whatever I can fit in the pages of the twins.

This guy kept detailed writings, detailed writings of what he called his projects, his victims. He included a lot of sketches of the locations of the crimes. He included sketches of victims bound and tied, little girls, women. He drew sketches of them. After he would sex assault them, bind, torture, then kill them in weird contorted positions, he would draw sketches of them. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Nicole Parton, I respect everything you've got to say, but I need to shrink, and I need one right now. To draw, it's not like you take a picture. You take the time to draw sketches, and now, Nicole, one of these sketches we now realize is the spitting image of a victim. What is that? That's a souvenir, Nancy. And you have to remember, and this is the truth, his sexual

gratification is coming from those souvenirs. So he looks at those pictures. He means he'll masturbate to them over and over like some guys would to a penthouse or a playboy or whatever. This is his pornography. The things that he did for his own sexual fantasies, always trying to get to that point where he could relive it, recapture it, and get that same excitement.

That's why he does it. Guys, I just want to tell you this one thing I read last night before getting with you today. Everybody on this panel will have a different take on this. Listen to this. This is 48 hours old. She has never been forgotten. Teen vanishes 40. I just got chills on my right arm. 47 years ago, officials believe BTK killed her. Another, and she's beautiful, Cynthia Kinney, K-I-N-N-E-Y. Now, a new task force has just been named, a BTK task force. Cheryl and I are on the task force. Anybody else on the panel that's on the, yeah. Okay,

Joe Scott, of course. I'm glad you're on the task force. You know what? Sometimes people are born for a certain moment. I think mine was to have the twins. I really do believe that's why I'm here. You never know, Joe Scott, why you are where you are, what piece of the puzzle your life will be. You know what? What if you could bring somehow,

you and Cheryl could somehow bring resolution on this girl to her family? I think that, yeah, that would certainly be fantastic. One of the things that I do as a college professor teaching forensics, there's something that my students watch once a year. It is a must. And from a forensic standpoint, it's invaluable. I have all of my students in

one class that I teach watch BTKs, and I'll let the lawyers on the panel panel explain this I have my students in my class watch BTK's allocution in court and it will send a chill up of your spine and I've seen a lot of stuff in my career but when he stands in that very formal environment and he is able within his mind to recall these very intimate details. For us, it's a treasure trove. I hate to say that, a forensic knowledge about what steps he took and all of this stuff. And he has this stuff cataloged in his mind. And I wonder, Nancy, I really wonder what else is contained within his mind that hasn't been unlocked yet to this point, because I think about those victims. Every time I watch it, I have to watch

it once a year. You feel like you need to take your brain out and scrub it with comment afterwards, but it's compelling as a teaching tool. Guys, Joe Scott is so right. I'm trying to wrap my head around the evidence that may link BTK to Cynthia Kinney. Now, Cheryl, you've seen additional evidence. I'm not going to ask you to comment on it as part of the task force. Let's go with what we can talk about. First of all, Nicole Parton, this new victim that I believe was killed by BTK. Where was her disappearance? It was in Osage County in Oklahoma. Where was her body found? She was found in Oklahoma.

Don't they have the death penalty? They do. They do, yes. Have I missed something? Why is he still alive? They didn't have the death penalty when he confessed. Yes. That's it.

That's it, Cheryl. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like Charles Manson, he got the death penalty. And then for the next 40 years, we have to listen to his BS. It's because he's not dead. Kills all those people.

And look, I'm not saying I'm pro or con the death penalty. I'm not saying I'm pro or con the death penalty. I'm not chasing that ball. What I'm saying is he has all this knowledge about all these victims. He could put their families to peace, but he's not. If this were some other jurisdiction, he would have already had the death penalty. That said, in that window, when he was prosecuted, like Charles Manson, the death penalty was either overruled or there was a moratorium. It was overruled for a period of years. Now it's back.

Okay, this girl, Cynthia Kinney, that's why I care about the jurisdiction Amber Emner I mean like with Manson and the girls they there was a death penalty and then with it thrown out Leslie Van Houten just I don't know if you saw was granted parole she was the youngest of the Manson followers but think about it they'd all gotten death, which they did get. And then, of course, Scott Peterson was on death row, but the length they wait, usually in California, is about 25 years from the verdict until execution. And we have the firing squad, of course, coming back all over the country.

I think Oklahoma, South Carolina, Idaho, the Valley Daybell case, et cetera. There's a moratorium in my state. We had death by hanging and by lethal injection. So it seems to me we're kind of getting a little more stronger with the death penalty. I don't know how people feel about it, but I think it's getting a lot more, let's say, being put to more use, right, than it has been. But back in California with Manson, that was pretty crazy. When the worst killer, I think, of all time basically walked free from the death penalty. We're talking about not just Cynthia Dawn Kinney, but Shauna Beth Garby, P.J. Prairie, a missing woman from Hayes, Kansas.

There's Project Bell, an unsolved murder in Kansas. Oklahoma, case number two, unsolved violent crime. There's just so many directions in which we can go. Okay, Cheryl McCollum, without divulging anything regarding the new evidence that you have seen in the task force. Weigh in. Well, the first thing that I always think is imperative is when somebody gives themselves a nickname, accept it. To me, when he called himself bind, torture, kill, that's a freaking confession. Straight up. The second thing that I think is really important for y'all to understand, when the sheriff of Osage County

asked for a task force to be put together, he asked me on a Saturday. And then he said, can you get these people together by Sunday so I can announce it on Monday? And I said, absolutely. And the reason I knew it could happen is because I knew when I called Joe Scott Morgan and Susan Constantine and Alina Burrus from Crime Scene Confidential, and Francie Hakes, former prosecutor, and all these unbelievable people, which include Nancy Grace, every single person was going to say yes. Every single person was going to say, whatever I can do, I'm available. I also knew that these folks would do one thing that was going to be the most

important part of this entire task force, and that is to have a lot of care and concern and take care of Carrie Rawson, his daughter. Carrie is doing something that is not only unprecedented. Think about how difficult this is for her to have her memories brought to the surface, to meet with all of us, to answer all these questions, to have the media come at her, and then come here and expose herself again in a really raw way to try to help families she's never met. So it's an honor for me to sit with this panel today, to work with this task force, to work with this sheriff's department, and above all, Carrie Rawson. I appreciate all that, but can you weigh in on the crime itself? Okay. Don't you love Nancy Grace? You say something, you get a little, you know, ovation and she goes, well, can you answer my question? Yes, I can answer your question. So yes, there are things that we now know that are not made public that are leading us to say,

look, there's some dots here that we're going to be able to connect. There's some things that are public. So y'all know there has been a dig at his former home. The sheriff has made public that he did find a ligature. And that's one of the things that Nancy and I are most interested in. Edgummit. What does that say? Ligature. Ligature. A pair of pantyhose found near where BTK, you know, I'm going to quit calling him that, the dog catcher killer. That'll irritate him. A ligature found, and let's go to our forensic specialist, Joe Scott Morgan, and of course, Cheryl, jump in.

Why is the ligature in bind, bind, torture, and kill so important important and what can you tell us about it joe scott most of the time when you begin to talk about ligatures it it is a method it's a method to bring about death and so you're talking about using this in the same manner that you would use your hands to strangle somebody but a ligature is utilized in order to block the airway externally, where you're wrapping it, sorry guys, where you wrap it around the neck, tighten it down, and literally occlude the airway externally, where you're pressing down on the airway and also on the carotids here that supply the brain with blood. Your brain demands a lot of oxygenated blood more

so than any other organ in the body and so you're compromising it that way and it's certainly it's certainly a means to torture and terrorize somebody with and here's the here's the really interesting thing about all of this nancy is that we have a template we have a template for what he has done previously okay all of that evidence from all those years ago the knots the types of items that he utilized and now just perhaps if they find anything else in the future that can look back to that pre-existing template and compare and contrast.

Okay, wait a minute. Let me break that down. Ligature. I asked him about ligature. He falls back on what he's comfortable with and starts talking about the brain, the neck, the ligature, the ligature, the ligature. Does it match the ligatures tied in the other killings when the bodies were found?

Is it the same square knot? And another thing, I guess you've all taken out the trash, right? Okay, and you get the big trash bag and you get the little yellow ties. You tie them. When you tie that, think of the repository of DNA, of epithelial cells you are leaving when you tie something. Think about the ligature. What, if anything, can it prove? Is it a similar transaction? Do I see the same type of tie? My children, both John David and Lucy, are this close to Eagle Scout. You know how many knots we've tied, and they're all different. When I tie my shoe, I do it a certain way. My daughter,

out of the blue, I didn't teach her this, does bunny ears, two of them, and then she does something else. Everybody has their thing. Ligature. What can I learn from the ligature? Number one, Nicole Parton, was it pantyhose? Pantyhose. Yeah. Okay.

Tell them what we're talking about. It was the pantyhose ligature thatyhose, yeah. Okay, tell them what we're talking about. It was the pantyhose ligature that was found on his property on the latest dig, where his former property, his house was. Now where? Was it buried? In Kansas. Buried. Buried.

Buried. In the dirt. Why would you bury a pair of pantyhose in a ligature? Well, maybe if it's the backyard of a serial killer like Nicole Parton is telling us, it may be very significant. And P.S., everything Joe Scott Morgan said was correct. It just wasn't about the ligature. It was about the neck and the brain. So if you have anything relevant to say, Joe Scott, this would be the time. Because once Max starts, it's over.

Well, I got to tell you. He's holding it in. He's holding it in. Here it comes. I do know this about BTK. The dog catcher killer his nom de guerre i know that he had a secret hiding place in his home where he kept all manner of items that were there and yes if there were things he would go back to fantasize with perhaps because he had a rich fantasy life. Maybe bindings were in there. And to have the specificity of a particular knot that he would tie, and he would tie it over and over and over again. And also the material that is used, Nancy. Is it a rope as opposed to a pantyhose?

Is it a belt opposed to something else that can be utilized? All of it goes back to a specific, and these are his tools, all right? It goes back to a specific tool that is his choice. And what you're going to look for are going to be patterns that are developing. What did they recover off those bodies? And what did they recover off the scene? That's why I'm fascinated by this item that they found out there. Was it actually tied? And what was the style of the knot oh you know what you just gave me a great thought um you said rope versus pantyhose i wonder and i'm sure the answer is out there did he use pantyhose every time he in some manner i don't think he did but did he ever use pantyhose? I think he used, in many cases, whatever was available.

You're right. He would grab whatever was there, telephone wires and type people up. Yes, you're right. You're right, Karen Stark. Okay, Cheryl McCollum, I was just trying to make a connection between the pantyhose and other ligatures and other killings and other bindings. He absolutely used pantyhose in more than one case. There's no doubt about that. I bet you if I dug up your backyard, I wouldn't find a ligature pair of pantyhose.

That's a whole nother podcast, y'all. But what was fascinating to me about this case, if you watch the sheriff, when he came on TV, he held that ligature up. He did that on purpose. Dennis Rader watches TV. He's watching, and the sheriff knew it, so he's talking directly to him, and he wanted him to know a couple of things. We found your hidey hole.

We found this ligature. And to Nancy's point, she's absolutely right. In most scenes, he tied at least five different knots. So that ligature is going to be crucial intelligence for us to understand, is this tie the exact same way? It's about this big, enough for a wrist or an ankle. That's part of his MO. Oh, I like that. When I say I like it, of course I don't like it. I find it probative. Correct. Can it prove something?

Because frankly, nothing else matters. After you go through law school and try a lot of cases, Ann Bremner, everything is, what does it prove? I was asked the other day, do you believe in mediums? And I said, as far as I'm concerned, no, because I can't put it in front of a jury. Unless I can put it in front of a jury, how is it helping me advance the case? She's absolutely right. And Jackie just sent me a text. And you're right, Jackie. Maybe we could look at the ligature and compare it to the pictures that that idiot took himself of the crime scene and any other photos that were taken by police as they processed the scene

and compare that ligature. What about that? You're right, Jack. No question. And we know that not only did he use pantyhose, he used his own belt. And again, you see these patterns. You hear Nancy and I talk all the time. Patterns matter. She'll say, if you want to know about a racehorse, look at his track record. It's the same thing. You've got somebody who took victim's clothing and recreated those scenes and made Polaroid pictures of himself in the position of the victim. He could not know that unless he was at that scene. Okay, Ann Bremner, who has tried so many cases, including homicides. Jump in. I'm in a homicide trial right now. I go back in on Monday. I'm defending a police officer. There's three officers charged in a case where they Jump in. make them connect with your client or your case. I mean, Nancy's a wonderful prosecutor and what

she's done best as a prosecutor is like she does here, connect with people, humanize witnesses, make sure that the jury feels the case and will go your way. And the fact that you've got the best story of what happened and the fact that it's true, it's got to be true. Everything has to ring true. And so I've learned a ton from Nancy over the years. We all love her, but I'm just so grateful I've learned from her on trying to try, trying a case from the heart. So we love Nancy. Thank you. Just trying to think about how we're going to connect these people. Karen Stark, I'm really interested in what you say about his psychology and his psychopathy, because there's so many things you can predict, right?

Here's an example. Let's go back to Scott Peterson, because he's such a rich example. He would go back to the scene and look out over San Francisco Bay. What was he looking for? Lacey's body to pop up? Brian Koberger, who is now facing trial for the murder of four beautiful University of Idaho students. Some of them in their sleep. Just slaughter. Slaughter.

That next morning, when police were all there, there goes Koeberger's white Elantra. He's just circling back to look at his handiwork. And it happens all the time. Why? I'm not sure. What is that? Why do people go back? It's their ego, Nancy.

They're very proud. Let's think about BTK. I mean, he was upset with the newspapers because they were not covering his story. And he actually said, I should be known by now. How many people do I have to kill in order for you to pay attention to me? He gave himself that moniker, the BTK. He was all about his narcissism, his accomplishments. He planned these out like they were movies. He directed them in his mind, and he planned them for months.

He was very methodical, and then he would go back. He would commit the crimes. Sometimes he would actually even go back to the scene. He thought he left something. He took incredible risks. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are taking your questions. Jackie, can we take questions now? Okay. So let's see. Where is the beautiful lady taking questions? And John Teranzio, are you still here skulking about?

John, because I expect you to have a question. There you go. Right there. Here's a question. My first question was, how do you, as a victim, or a victim, secondary victim, teach your kids to be safe without making them an anxious mess? And the second question was, can I just wobble a little closer and take a close-up picture,

because my grandpa has Alzheimer's, but he knew Nancy Graves was there, so he said, you better get a picture. I'd really be honored. This is how I did do it. Since a perp can look like anything, they can be white, they can be Hispanic, they can be Asian, they can be black, it can be a man, it can be a woman.

They may have on a fake police outfit. They could be a guy dressed up like the meter reader. It could be anybody. It could be your teacher. I'm not going to tell them that. I think I was the one that was the most scared. Did I ever tell anybody about when John David went missing and the babies are a superstore? Quit shaking your head, Cheryl McCollum.

I can see you, believe it or not. Okay, I'll tell you. I was looking because some soccer mom made me feel bad because she made her own organic sunscreen. This is real. I'm not making this up. This happened. I'm like, she said, all that stuff you're putting on the twins gives them cancer. I'm like, so I go to the Baby's Earth Superstore, and they've got shelves, floor to ceiling practically, and I'm way down at the bottom looking for organic sunscreen. I turn around and there's Lucy, but no John David.

All I could think about is my friend John Walsh and Adam who goes missing. Was it in a Sears? Like two rows over from his mom, Reeve. What happened? I put Lucy under my arm like a football and started running and screaming, lock the doors. My son is missing. Okay. I found him. He was hiding two rows away, but those were the worst moments of my life. So you asked me, how do you handle being a victim?

I don't. It's affected everything about me. I've been told my personality is completely different than what it used to be. I don't even remember that girl. I don't know what that even was anymore. But you know what? Here I am right now making the best of it. Bam. Okay, question. Do you believe that police officers should have special sensitivity training with victims of sexual abuse or child trauma? Because I have experienced where I was interviewed and they didn't feel as though I was in and made to feel as though I was in a criminal law-breaking situation.

Second question, what can you do as individuals to help with these unsolved murders? Obviously, we are trained, but is there anything that you can do to bring light to music? Okay, number one, I believe that sensitivity training is just as important as training at the firing range. Because think about it, heck yes, I want the cop to be able to shoot the bad guy if he's getting away. But how many

more times a month, a week, a year will a cop interview a crime victim than he will shoot a fleeing felon? About a million times more. So yes, I remember when I was interviewed before Keith's murder trial. I still remember it. Not really in a good way. But it was the best that they knew how to do. And I'm not saying, I'm absolutely not saying that cops are bad. I'm saying cops are good. But yes, you need training to handle that.

For instance, when I would interview child victims for trial, I would say, well, I have to prove when, where, is it in my jurisdiction, is the statute passed? All that is important. And the child may not be able to tell me. It was April the 15th, blah, blah, blah. Okay, so I would say something like, well, were the Christmas decorations up?

Did you have your Christmas tree up? Or was it around your birthday? Or was it hot outside? Just a million ways to unlock the truth of their story. And that took, I never didn't have training, but it took some doing to figure out their language. So yes, sensitivity training. And number two, how help? I can tell you this much. My twins and I and my husband went to the Butterfly House at Calloway Gardens, okay? At the Butterfly House, we also went to lunch at the Oyster Box, which is, I think, in Pine Mountain, Georgia. And there on the bathroom stall window, I mean door, was a flyer for missing. I took a picture of it, and we helped that family get answers on the missing person. Anything you can do, a flyer, a tip line, we, Jack, what's our tips at crimeonline.com? Any story, anything you need help.

I look at Twitter all the time, not because I want to read all the ugly things on there, like you're mean, you're awful, blah, blah, blah. I'm looking for cases, unsolved cases, people that need help. You would be surprised. Don't you guys agree how we find out about cases that need our help? And not just us, police as well. And believe me, you know what politicians do care about? Getting reelected. That's what they care about. And if you contact them and talk about your grassroots effort to get them thrown out if they don't pay attention to XYZ, that's the only way

they're going to listen. Do it. You guys have any ideas? You're shaking your head yes. Jump in. I agree with you 100%. No, no, no, no. Not what she said. Your own idea for once. Come on.

Have your own original idea. How can they help? They want to help. Look at this room. I'm going to tell you straight up. You're already doing it. You're here. You're meeting people. I've seen so many people taking pictures of the caravan car and you're posting it.

You're talking to other family members. Gabby Petito's family's here. I've seen y'all taking pictures and you're posting it. So you're helping. Nancy started in domestic violence. I started at the Rape Crisis Center. So those grassroots, those base level, you know, trainings and volunteer efforts, that's the most important thing.

But y'all being here, y'all talking about it, keeping these cases alive are the most important things. Nancy and I used to, you know, train at the police academy together. And I remember one time we were having a real hard time getting these young officers to understand just because somebody says something about your mama, you can't hit her. And they were like, Mac, you're telling me if somebody says my mama is blank, I can't hit her. And I said, not legally. You can't do it. And and this not unless you want to be on the Nancy Gray show unless you want to be on the Nancy Gray show so I finally told him I said look it is not in a nutshell Cheryl here's the nutshell I said it is not illegal to be a bitch it is illegal to hit one thank you I'm here all week. Question right there.

A couple things. Can we stop calling Dennis Rader, BTK, what he wants to be called? I think it's absolutely awful to glorify him. Exactly. Please, if we're going to call him, he's a dog catcher killer. Don't even want to call him. He needs that. And secondly, yeah, because we've got to drop it today.

So I guess the other thing is with the binding, did he, being a dog catcher, did he use that binding, that same skill or whatever with what he did? That is a really good idea. You know he tortured those animals. You know he did. Can I jump in? Tell him, Karen Stark. He admits to it, Nancy. He actually, he self-reports that he tortured animals. And they do believe that

he did that as a dog catcher. That he actually euthanized dogs that didn't need to be killed. And I wouldn't put him past it. He actually exercised his fingers. Imagine that with a ball. So he could be strong enough to strangle. So yeah, I would think that he would do that with dogs. And I wanted to tell you, a couple of us on the panel have met his daughter. She's amazing. Also, in case you're wondering, he was a crap dad and husband.

Aggressive, abusive, awful, as you might imagine. Horrible. Horrible. Yes? A month ago, Orphan identified a young lady that was found in Missouri in 1990. And she is, demonstrators consider her murderer. Are you aware of her name as Shauna Beth Garber? Yes, I said her name at the get-go.

There's several. There's Cynthia Dawn Kenny. Shauna Beth Garber was the second name I mentioned. P.J. Prairie from Hays, Kansas. An unsolved murder in Kansas that's being referred to as Project Bell. And Oklahoma case number two. And I believe these are just the tip of the iceberg. So, yes, and her case, in my mind, you're talking about Shauna's case, is very strong.

Nicole, do you know about Shauna's case? Yeah, I do. Hit it. So she was discovered behind a barn. And again, we have sketches of these barns in Raider's Journal. She was discovered in Missouri. She's a young lady who didn't receive a lot of coverage because she had aged out of foster care. She didn't have a family. So she was kind of an unknown young lady. But she was found severely sexually abused, bound in five ways by five different ligatures. And there's a strong connection, it's believed, between Shauna Beth Garber and Dennis Rader.

Don't think that we forgot about her, but I'm glad you mentioned her because I started about Cindy and then never made it beyond that. So you're absolutely right. And I don't like when we just say the victims, they have names. Let's just say them one more time. Cindy Dawn Kinney, Shauna Beth Garber, PJ Prairie, Project Bell, and the Oklahoma case number two. I mean, really, in Shauna's case, he draws pictures of the barn where her remains are found behind that. That's not a coincidence.

Thank you! This is an iHeart Podcast.