Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - CrimeCon Live: ‘Up & Vanished’ creator Payne Lindsay

Episode Date: June 20, 2017

Payne Lindsay, whose podcast “Up & Vanished” is credited with stirring up a suspect in the 2004 disappearance of teacher Tara Grinstead, talks with Nancy Grace. Steven Avery prosecutor Ken Kratz and investigator Tom Fassbender are also on the stage for this second segment of our live CrimeCon podcast session. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. On Saturday, October 22nd, 2005, Tara Grinstead went missing from her residence. As the hours turned into days, days into weeks, weeks into months, and eventually months into years, the search efforts never ceased. This is Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We always believed that it would be solved. We just did not know when. A few days ago, an individual came forward and reported that they had information into Tara's disappearance. Through these interviews, enough probable cause was discovered so we could swear out an arrest warrant

charging Ryan Alexander Duke with the murder of Tara Grinstead. Duke was taken into custody yesterday afternoon and a warrant was issued this morning. This is part two of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace live from CrimeCon. On the stage with Nancy, Ken Kratz and Tom Fassbender from Making a Murderer and Up and Vanished creator Payne Lindsey. With me, Payne Lindsey. Payne is the creator of Up and Vanished. And he first focused on the disappearance of a beautiful young lady. And I really identified with her mother a lot, Tara Grinstead, which I believe largely because Payne stayed on it in his

podcast, has just been cracked after many, many years of being a cold case. So Payne, what's up, man? What's up? What's up? Thanks for talking to me before it cracked, too. We spoke beforehand. We did a little podcast interview exchange. Yeah. But it really kind of struck a chord with me when you were talking about when you went inside Tara's house. I did all my research, and one of the first places you go is looking at old news clips and all the news archives, and you were in a lot of them. You did tons of interviews with persons of interest, different suspects and family members, and went to Osceola. And you're from Georgia, so I knew that this case had to strike a chord with you. And it really kind of connected with me when you shared that story about being inside her

house and it being real neat. It looked like a little doll house. It was everything. It looked like, what's that magazine, that interior magazine? No. It's like they sell things, like furniture. It starts with a D. It'll come to me in a minute.

It looked so perfect, like it was out of one of those magazines where they sell house goods. And then there was a lamp, when the police came, there was a lamp when the police came there was a lampshade askew there were pearls all across the floor and the edge of her bed one of the columns bedstead had been it's kind of cracked cracked a couple little subtle clues that there may have been a struggle inside the home nothing definitive I want to ask you actually a question. Having been on this case for a long time and covering it a long time ago, were you surprised about the arrest of two former students for the murder? Yes, I was, and I'll tell you why.

Okay, there's my husband, and he doesn't have the children. Uh-oh. Why don't you give him some more melatonin? And use star 67? And use star 67? One of the four. Oh, they'll be fine. What's the temperature outside right now?

They're fine. They're in the car. I left the air conditioner on. We're talking about Tara Grinstead. David went with me and the night that we went through the home, we stopped at the only restaurant we could find by the interstate. Was it a Waffle House? It had to be.

Or a Huddle House. Waffle House. And it had a steak. Not me. It's actually not that bad. The Waffle House steak is pretty decent. He had the steak. I had the waffle.

Yes, but the reason I was surprised is because typically murders are committed by somebody you know that's in your close circle. That's your husband. That's your ex. That's your boyfriend. And then it moves out. Okay? I did not see that. I should have, but I didn't. So what do you think it means?

I mean, why then? If these guys did do this, how were they ever in the same place? I don't believe that Ryan Duke just went over to Tara's house one night on a whim. Wait, are you suggesting they had a sex relationship? No, I'm not. It's always the same thing with men, isn't it? No. Really, it's actually not.

I don't even believe that. I really don't. No, what is it? I just want to know why they were together. You see how I did that and how I turned that around on you? You did, and it was really mean. You're mean. Thank you.

You know, men don't like a nice woman. You know, you cook for them. You know, you do everything for them. You give them little cards. No, they want somebody mean. Then they yell at you when you're all of a sudden done. Okay, now, wait. Why do I think, I think that there are times in life when people collide.

That's what I'm talking about. I think that they probably, they may have gone in to burglarize. There was a big shindig that night, a barbecue at her boss's house. She was a teacher or somebody connected with the Board of Education. And, I mean, everybody knows everything in that town. Or they went by and saw her car was gone. Right. But they had been in her car because she was one of those neat freaks.

I mean, you could tell that from inside of her house her seat was pushed back to her seat was pushed back you know you get in your car and your husband's been in there and it's like uh and you fix it and there was mud all over where the tires had been somewhere muddy she would never have done that that's just not her you know those people like you get in the car, it's perfect, and it smells clean, and everything. They have the little protectors and all. That was her. Her car was covered in, the tires were covered in red mud, and the seat was pushed back. So they had been in her car.

So I'm wondering if they did not get her on the way home or getting out of her car or were burglarizing and she came in upon them so they killed her. Either way, it's strange to me. Yeah, it's strange. And it would make more sense if it wasn't random. Like, in some people's minds, if they had had a relationship and she kept it a big secret. Why would she want a kid from high school? I don't think she would. She was actually a beauty queen and smart, has applied to a

PhD program. I mean, everything. I just find it strange that what the GBI is alleging is that Ryan Duke, who's been charged with murder... No relation. I was waiting for him to inject himself. And

they say that Ryan Duke went to Tara's house, middle of the night on Saturday night, and broke into her house with the intent to steal something and killed her with one hand. And I just find that hard to believe. One, there's nothing valuable in Tara's

house. She's a school teacher they don't get paid very much money unfortunately you really think I mean what what did you do before you started podcasting nothing okay yeah all right you really think that criminals like Ryan Duke sit around and go wow if I did break in I might not find any no they just do it they don't think it through car was there i mean it seems like a bad house to rob it does doesn't it yeah you think they thought about that i don't know i mean i think that anybody would think about that maybe ryan duke didn't that night that's why people okay let me tell you something when i first started

prosecuting i had not been out on the street very much. I got a case. I opened the file. I'm like, I said, this cop is lying. Renee, are you in here still? I told you this story. So I opened because the cop wrote on the police report, I was driving through McClendon down, you know, whatever. And the defendant came up for me on the corner

and held up a glassine bag of crack. In his right hand. I'm like, you expect me to believe a doper's going to hold up a pack of crack on the street? That didn't happen.

You're lying. I'm throwing the case out. I said this to a cop. I was straight out of law school. I didn't happen. You're lying. I'm throwing the case out. I said this to a cop. I was straight out of law school. I didn't know anything. Okay, so, you know, fast forward a few months. I'm out investigating a child molestation case. I pull into the same project. A guy goes, I'm like.

How much did you buy it for? So, yeah. i got a good deal on it was a five rock uh yeah so you're saying wow you think you would really have broken into tara grinstead's house when there wasn't that much to still yeah i do yeah why not there's other parts of the story that make less sense. Like he drove 20 minutes in the middle of the night to go to Tara's house, solely her house. Why her house? There's got to be a reason. Maybe he wanted to rape her. Maybe. I mean, do you doubt that it's him?

No. Then why? I just think that the narrative is... Then can I ask you what difference does it make why he went and killed her well if it involved other people wouldn't it be important that they are held accountable as well yes of course i think that ryan duke very well may be you know responsible for killing sarah but you think somebody else helped get rid of her i think there's more people involved in the story i think that i think so too the narrative is presented

this way and there's a gag order in place because it's convenient for law enforcement. Oh, conspiracy. I'm really not a conspiracy theorist. Some people would think he's cute. Not me. Some people would think he's cute.

He seems normal. He's got a successful broadcast. If I can just add to this discussion, that's why prosecutors are not required in homicide trials to prove motive. Because sometimes we don't know. The answer is, I don't know. Why he did something like that? You're trying to take relatively

crazy decisions that people make and trying to fit it into something that is like everybody else would adopt. But when you're investigating it, you consider that, right? Isn't motive pretty important in an investigation, Tom? Absolutely. But do prosecutors ever simplify a case

and just try to ignore that somebody else may be involved just to get their conviction? Why do you think they're ignoring it? Just because they haven't told you about it. Make their job easy. This is making my teeth hurt. I mean was a hold on we've got a defense lawyer in the house Renee how many times have I prosecuted or you

defended people and you're like why are you so damn stupid why would you do this? No, because a lot of times people are committing crimes when they're high, or they're drunk, or they're mad, and they're just striking out doing things. You know that morning after when you're like, dang, I left my gloves in my car, put my fingerprints all over my face. One of the social science discussions or reasons is because that class of people, Nancy, you know this, have a good degree of impulsivity about them. They don't think things through. That's why they're criminals.

If it wasn't for stupid criminals, we'd be out of a job. Well, they thought something through because, I mean, they burned Tara's body for several days, and that's not alleged. That's something that one of the people admitted. So it makes you wonder, how can you be stupid and smart? What Ryan has alleged to be done was stupid, in my opinion, but it wasn't that stupid if the GBI couldn't solve it for 11 years. I'll tell you why I think they couldn't solve it. I think it's because he was so outside her sphere.

Yeah. I mean, yes, he was at school, the same school, when she was teaching there. I'm not even sure. Did she teach him ever? She taught him. It was three years prior, though. So, you know, why would you even think of him? I have no idea.

So, but do you have any doubt, based on what you know now, that he is the killer? No. I just think there's a different story. I think it involves more people. I think there may be a difference. I agree with you, Payne. That should be held responsible. And the good thing is we're going to learn the different story in upcoming Up and Vanished episodes.

Produced by Duke. Look, hey, hey, I may beat him up all the time, but I still want him. You're not getting him. He's mine. You already signed something. He's mine to mistreat. Okay, poor guy. Let's take one more question.

Okay, what? Okay, we've got to take three. Okay, you first. I was wondering how you feel about the kind of, like, civilian filmmaker, podcaster, and as a domestic character. I love it. Because, like, right now I'm thinking about those two little girls that were murdered in Delphi. Look, it's a small police force. Everybody's ragging on them.

They're trying. You think they don't want to solve it? They need help. Right. Like in Missy Beavers. They need help. Don't dragy Beavers, they need help. Don't drag them down. Lift them up.

Help the police. Yes. I mean, I really think Payne is partially responsible for staying on that case and it getting cracked. I really do. He never let up. I do. Thank you. And these guys, I mean, imagine having Netflix against you.

I mean, whoa. That's a real David and Goliath. Like I always say, and you know this to be true, my husband, I'd be 1 o'clock at night making posters. For the next day, I would buy my own supplies and all. The DA didn't have any money. You're up against a lot. You really are.

Where am I going with this? Yes, I like citizens that try. Yes. I have a question going back to the making a murder and all that. I went to your session yesterday. I learned a lot. The people at Michigan, y'all really missed a lot because they filled in a lot of the gaps. But one of the questions that Bill has, so we know that she was in the back of her own vehicle,

and we know that her hair had flooded and all that. So what is your own narrative as far as she was in the house, she was in the garage and was shot, and she was in the back of her own vehicle, but the fire pit is relatively close there. Why did they ever put her in the back of the car? They put her in the back of the vehicle, according to Brendan, because they had to decide what to do with her body. So at that point, they threw her in the back, and they did throw her because there's the cast-off blood.

Remember the blood pattern analysis that we talked about yesterday we know it didn't make any sense until brendan told us why is she in the back of her own vehicle it doesn't make sense but now it makes sense they're going to decide what to do with with the body and and and they decided to burn and said oh yeah and i agree with that 100 but number two you're just not going to let a body lay around the garage floor when there are brothers and relatives and people that may stop by. So they're putting it somewhere, putting her somewhere. And there is this instinct that I've always seen, I cannot explain it, to hide the body. And if it's somebody you know, you'll see them cover the face.

It's very odd. Was that the rest of your question? I want the truth. I don't care if the courthouse falls down, if the walls crash in. I don't care if someone wrongfully convicted is made clear and they get out of jail. I want the truth. I want the right person behind bars come hell or high water. Right.

If I can add, one of the most hurtful things said about me, and there's been a lot of things, is that I only cared about a conviction instead of justice. I'm sitting here in front of all of you right now, and any prosecutor would say this. I don't care if they did it. I don't care if they didn't do it. I wanted the right result. And so when they suggest that everything we did was just for a prosecution or a conviction when Tom just did the the questioning of him just looking for a confession that's not true at all people that do our work don't do

it to get rich people that do our work do it to seek justice to hold accountable for that and that's why why we do those things and I will stick by that until my dying breath yep hey watch who you calling Hillbilly little girl. So where's the rest of the evidence? Okay. Were you in our presentation yesterday? I don't know the answer.

Okay. We did. But we'll answer it again. Yes. If the killing occurred in the bedroom, he did burn all the sheets, according to Brendan, and that would make sense. Get rid of all the sheets and burn them. The bedroom was totally reconfigured, totally reconfigured from before and after. There was a carpet cleaner, a vacuum cleaner, bleach in the bathroom. He scoured that bedroom. He scoured that house to get rid of any sign. He is no stranger to DNA. Then in the garage, we already know he used

gasoline, paint thinner, bleach on a garage floor. His own brother asked me once when I asked him about that. He goes, why would you use bleach on a garage floor? And I said, what do you think? And he goes, oh. Guys, come on, right there. How often do you see a man suddenly get a neat jag? And suddenly they're up all night vacuuming and cleaning and steam cleaning the carpet. When has that ever happened? Ever. Oh, I think I'll go clean the garage out with gas and bleach. Did Brendan clean up or Stephen?

Stephen. Stephen. Brendan helped in the garage. He's the one that talked about the gas, the paint thinner, and the bleach. And officers that went into Stephen's trailer when we got there, they actually commented on the cleanliness of the smell, the bleach smell and the cleanliness of the smell in the trailer. So that's my explanation. My explanation

about bleeding, there's not always a ton of blood. There's ways to limit blood. If the person's dead and the heart's not pumping, you're not going to have a lot of blood, active bleeding. We don't know what went on in there. You put a blanket over and you stab someone, that limits the bleeding. You know, so the blood, amount of blood is an unknown yeah yeah possibly yeah oh her question was to Payne Lindsey. Since this was her student, wouldn't she probably open the door? He knew her and her boyfriend had broken up, and she would be alone. Yeah, she may have opened the door, but that's not what the GBI said happened.

They say that he broke in there. But he knows she was alone, so let's just pretend he did go there to break in. He knows she's alone. Yeah, he would know that, yes. Yeah, she would have known him and may have trusted him enough to let him inside. For sure, that's possible. Something I heard you say earlier when you were doing your podcast in here is you suggested that maybe she was just in a state of mind to do something out of the ordinary and wild.

Are you suggesting she might have gone to that party with Ryan and Bo? I just think that based on the emails that I have read that kind of give insight into Tara's state of mind in that time, she seemed very vulnerable to me. And I always just gut feeling like you get your gut feelings, thought that that might be related to her disappearance well maybe she did something out of the norm have seen them together oh yeah for sure but they didn't this was not or they just didn't say they did not the principal's barbecue i'm talking about a separate instance a separate party

in town that night i'm saying not one person maybe she didn't go maybe she's at the barbecue at 11 o'clock and maybe she doesn't go straight home maybe she goes somewhere else maybe she goes out here on the orchard where there's a party and there's other people around what what people friends of bill and ryan and they are how old 21 22 and she is how old 30, so maybe she went to a party out in an orchard with a group of her former students. Is that what you're? Maybe. And so after all these years, not one of those students ever came forward and said, yeah, we saw her that night. They haven't, but they are now.

They what? The ones I'm talking to, they are now. Saying that she was there? Yeah, I mean. On upcoming episodes of Up and Banish. Wait, wait. now Saying that she was there Wait, wait Are they saying she was at the party? Not that specifically But all these people

All the friends of Bo and Ryan Most of them knew about this too Whatever happened, they knew about it And they kept it a secret So the idea that this secret could not be kept for so long Wait, that she was at the party? No, but that they knew what happened, specifically. That's one of my theories.

It's easier to make it make sense if she was already out there on the orchard to me. Versus Ryan taking her out there. At her house. Something went on at the house. If the house was perfect, I could see that. Well, the house was almost perfect. I mean... But there was no real signs of a struggle.

I'm getting into Payne Lindsay's narrative. I'm not saying that's not true. I'm saying that's a possibility. But Ryan Duke's a pretty small guy. I mean, it's confusing. He's not. Yeah. Okay, there's the last one.

I promise you I am. Hit me. She's not. Tell it. Tell it. Somebody is chewing pain, Lindsay, a nearer end hole. Okay. I mean.

Let this lady stand up in the purple, pink-ish. Yeah. So I understand it was three years after Ryan was in her class. And I agree with you. I feel like it's pretty random that he would pick Tara over anyone else. I know he was intoxicated. I know that there was other things going on. But do you think that there was any communication between the two of them within those three years that might have brought Tara to his mind? And that's the reason why he

chose her? Do you think Tara just ran into him at Walmart and that's why she wound up on the court? What is your theory? Well, let me first clear this up real quick. I mean, Tara is the victim here. I'm not saying anything else. I mean, whatever happened to Tara was... No, I literally said that there might be... I think she's right. I'm with you.

It's easy to make it seem like I'm victim shaming or something like that. I'm not. No, I mean, if I was shaming a victim, I wouldn't be doing Up and Vanish. I said that she might have been vulnerable and made a decision that was out of the norm for Tara. And going to a place with strangers might be a decision out of the norm. I'm not saying she had any sort of intent there. She may have just had an open invitation and

done something out of the norm. And that's why this case has been unsolved for so long. Do you think they had a communication? No, I don't think so. I think that if anything, if Ryan may have had some sort of obsession with her, Tara had nothing to do with Ryan. I don't think they talked to each other over the so. I think that if anything, if Ryan may have had some sort of obsession with her, Tara had nothing to do with Ryan. I don't think they talked to each other over the years.

I think that it might have been something that developed in his own head and turned into something else later. That's what she's saying, like he ran into her that day at Ralph's. I think that it was a random choice. They had no interaction over the last three years. I'm just wondering why he did that. For all we know, he could have seen her that night and followed her home i mean it could have been that simple wait i've got to go okay that

the skew yeah the the shade was a skew who said no says Says Maurice Godwin. Okay. Yeah, but then there's still the pearls on the floor. There was a lady in the back. Yes, there. I went to the defense talk yesterday, and no one was more behind making a murder report at the time than I was. When you see the clips, I don't know if you can go back to where we were yesterday, but when you see the full clip of Brian Jackson's confession,

and hearing the whole history of Stephen's stipulation with women, and really like strong hold over people, I mean, it's just very convincing that Stephen did the murder, and it really did the rape. And really the real wrong people here, because I thought it was the man in the back row, was the victim of the murder. Thanks. And thank you for that. Let me just repeat what she said. She said the presentation yesterday showed some of the splicing,

some of the deceptive editing That making a murderer did and showed just just how troubling that was I wanted to mention and and I might have been mentioned before I even walked in here But I wrote a book called Avery the case against Steven Avery and what making a murderer gets wrong. It is right here It is by the way. They sold out here, which is fantastic, and they also are taking orders, and they will directly mail that to you. But in a setting like this, and since this is the first time since the book came out

that I am on the same stage with this young lady to my left, I wanted to personally thank Nancy Grace for writing the forward to Avery. It's a fantastic book, and it's also a fantastic forward, and I wanted to personally thank you for that, Nancy. Thank you. Thank you for coming. Okay. I swear this is the last question.

I got a question. Who hasn't? Okay. Who has not asked a question yet? Hit me. My big question is, is it the norm to question a 16-year-old boy without parental guidance? Okay, I think I have an answer for that. Tom, didn't the mother, wasn't the mother at one time in the next room, didn't she come down?

Again, we're talking about multiple interviews. And on the March 1st interview, we contacted her. We asked her if we could interview Brendan again. She consented. And when asked if she wanted to be there, she said no. Well, she didn't say no. She said she had something going. She wouldn't be, but she'll come down when she's done. And then there was another time that you called the defense

attorneys, right? Two months later, right. But it has nothing to do with the March 1st interview, but two months later. Two months later, defense attorneys actually, this is the sad part for defense attorney, offered him up to make another statement. What you folks don't know is Brendan already agreed to a plea bargain just before that last statement. So this last interview with the defense attorney wanting him to give one more statement, he'd already agreed to that 15-year deal that we made. It was between that time and when the weekend was over that Brendan rejected the plea offer that he said he didn't want to do that. So he had agreed to plead guilty.

Right, and so that last statement was really their idea. I didn't know that. We didn't want another statement. Geez, we had plenty of statements. We didn't want any more from Brendan at that time. That was the defense attorney's desire and request that we take a statement on the 13th of May, two months later. And that reminds me of something that happened in Tottenham, Casey Anthony.

Do you remember we were right in the middle of the trial and all of a sudden, suddenly, they recessed court and I'm like, what? What? They had offered her a deal according to reports and her whole defense team wanted her to take the guilty plea. She would not do it they knowing the case wanted her to plead guilty court ended because they wanted to talk to her about pleading guilty I did not know that Dacey had accepted a guilty plea and and his lawyers even his later lawyers after mr. Kaczynski was thrown off the, even his later lawyers, after Mr. Kuczynski was thrown off the case, even his later lawyers, after Avery's already convicted, we still offered Brendan a plea.

Because I didn't need his testimony anymore, but that kid didn't deserve life in prison, and they still rejected it. The defense attorneys did what's called a CYA letter, where they they said we've recommended this to our client It was his decision not to take it. We know in an effective assistance why they write that kind of letter Yeah, they were saying to Brendan. You're gonna get convicted young man I got a question Alan the Duke Duke from his posh Penthouse pad in Hollywood has a question for you. Okay. I've got a question for you guys because this, after I watched the Netflix series, I had a certain opinion.

I thought that they. And we had a fight. I thought that he was innocent and he'd been framed. And then I. Was that Avery or Dassy? Avery. Okay. Both of them.

And, but then after digging into it, my mind evolved, let's say. Show of hands about this weekend. Who walked into this CrimeCon convention thinking Avery was innocent? Anybody? Keep your hands up if you've changed your mind during what you've heard. So most of the folks who thought he was innocent now think he's guilty. Is that right? You've changed your mind in the last couple of days of hearing these two gentlemen and their sessions and everything else.

You know, one thing that we have totally disregarded is the jury. They heard the evidence. They heard it all. All of it. And they voted in two separate trials to convict Dacey and convict Avery and I don't really know where we get the right to question what they did but you know I guess it is America we

can question the jury verdict but they heard it all and they voted and we certainly know juries can be wrong but I think they got it right okay Nancy Grace crime story signing off goodbye friends you're listening to an iHeart podcast