Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Criminal Charges to Come in Deaths of 3 Chiefs Fans Frozen in Backyard?

Episode Date: February 5, 2024

Early toxicology results for three friends found dead outside a Chiefs watch party, reportedly show cocaine and fentanyl in their systems. The families of David Harrington, Clayton McGeeney, and Ricky Johnson confirmed the police have the initial toxicology reports. According to a family member, who wants to remain anonymous, the level of drugs in their system is high, three times the amount of a lethal fentanyl dosage. The families confirmed to WDAF that the police have the reports and have shared some of the information with the families. Police say the case remains an ongoing death investigation. Joining Nancy Grace Today:   Dale Carson – Criminal Defense Attorney (Jacksonville), Former FBI Agent, Former Police Officer, & Author: “Arrest-Proof Yourself;” Twitter/X: @DaleCarsonLaw Caryn L. Stark – Psychologist, Renowned TV and Radio Trauma Expert and Consultant; Instagram: carynpsych/FB: Caryn Stark Private Practice Barry Hutchison Sr. - Former Law Enforcement, Owner & Chief Investigator for Barry & Associates Investigative Services LLC Dr. William Morrone – Medical Examiner, Toxicologist, Pathologist, and Opioid Treatment Expert; Author: “American Narcan: Naloxone & Heroin-Fentanyl Associated Mortality” Grace Smith - KCTV5 Reporter; IG: @Gracesmithnews, X: @GraceKCTV5  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an I Heart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. With three dead bodies just outside your window, how do you miss that? Of course, I'm talking about the three Kansas City Chiefs fans found dead on the back porch friend, the homeowner, Jordan Willis, immediately pack up, move out, lawyer up, and check into rehab as part of an elaborate legal strategy to gain public sympathy and avoid potential jail time? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories and on Sirius XM 111. Of course, we are now learning that each of the victims out in the yard and on the friend's back porch in plain view from inside had lethal doses of fentanyl and more in their system. I'm talking about potentially three times a normal dosage or more.

We have not seen the official toxicology report. We are getting this information from family. Now again, no one has been named a POI, person of interest, or suspect in this case. All the while, the friend slash homeowner remains behind closed doors in an alleged rehab facility. First of all, take a listen to this. When Jordan Willis checked into rehab, family and close friends said he decided to tackle his addiction issue head on after the wake-up call he got when three friends died outside his house. Retired NYPD Inspector Paul Morrow tells Fox News Willis checking into rehab could be a preemptive move to get a shorter sentence if he is charged with a crime.

Early toxicology results indicate all three men found dead outside Jordan Willis's rented home had cocaine and fentanyl in their systems. According to WDAF, the family's confirmed police have the initial toxicology reports. According to a family member, the level of drugs in their system is high, three times the amount of a lethal fentanyl dosage. And police say the case remains an ongoing death investigation. And the facts seem to be revealing that the friend slash homeowner may have had something to do with mixing the deadly drug cocktail. Is that true? What do we know? Listen. Caleb McGinney says his cousin Clayton McGinney was his best friend. Caleb claims Jordan Willis has been known since high school as the chemist who would make drugs for the specific

needs of the individual. McGinney also says that Ricky Johnson, Clayton McGinney, and David Harrington were all best friends. They all knew Jordan Willis from high school, but from a close knit, quote, friendship standpoint, Jordan Willis was kind of off to the side. The mysterious fifth man in the group on the night of the football watch party, Alex Lee, is a good man, according to Caleb. Asked if Lee might have brought drugs to the get-together, Caleb McGinney tells news medias, hell no. McGinney also says he's not happy Jordan Willis used his cousin, his best friend, as a guinea pig, then effed up and made a mistake. Let me go straight out. We've got an all-star panel with us right now.

But let me go first to Grace Smith out of Kansas City. K kctv5 investigative reporter grace thank you for being with us first of all is it true that the friend and for those of you that can't see me i'm definitely using air quotas with friends like these who needs enemies the so-called friend slash homeowner, Jordan Willis. Is it true he's checked into rehab? And if so, do you know where? So according to family members, they have told me that he has checked into rehab. I do not know where. I have reached out to his attorney, and he told me that he is not commenting further

on anything until those full toxicology reports are in hand. Is that the same lawyer that won't reveal what has happened to the friend slash homeowner's cell phone? Won't tell you what was on it. Won't give it to you. Don't know if it's been handed over to police. Is that him? Same lawyer? Yes. He says he is not commenting on anything until those reports are out. Okay. So much to figure out, but first of all, we know for sure, according to family members of the victims, that the homeowner has gone to rehab. Well, it wouldn't be the first time that a celebrity or an individual gets in hot water and thinks rehab is the answer. Does the name Mel Gibson ring a bell? Listen.

Mel Gibson was arrested for driving under the influence the first time in 1984. Years later, Gibson was once again arrested for drunk driving. He was caught speeding in Malibu in 2006 by Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department. According to the police report and arresting officer, Gibson lashed out at the police in a tirade, making anti-Semitic remarks against Jewish people, which became known to millions of people worldwide, with his remarks ultimately harming his career.

After his DUI in 2006, Gibson entered a treatment center for his drug and alcohol addiction, and after a few more alcohol-related embarrassments, got sober after attending his last rehab in 2010. Dale Carson joining me, high-profile lawyer out of Jacksonville, also former FBI and author of Arrest Proof Yourself at DaleCarsonLaw.com. Dale Carson, before I play Mel Gibson calling a lady cop sugar tits. Before I play that, can you explain to me the legal strategy of packing up all your belongings, moving out of the house, lawyering up, and shaking into rehab?

It is so easy to get people to talk about stuff they should not talk to police about. So if you can encounter that individual somewhere, even if he's in rehab, remember, that's not protected speech in rehab. And so the result is that if he runs his mouth and he indicates that he was the supplier in Florida, you'd be subject to the death penalty. And that's recent in Florida, but they take it real seriously here. So any providing of narcotics or drugs to someone that results in a death, you're on the hook for not just a life felony, but for execution. Guys, it's PR strategy. That's what it is. Now, as many people have pointed out, maybe this is just a scenario where a bunch of guys get together to watch a game. They do drugs and

unbeknownst to them, their drugs are cut with a lethal dose of fentanyl. Maybe the friend slash homeowner is just lucky to be alive, but how is it that he's alive and they're all dead? Again, back to entering rehab when you are in legal hot water. And not just Mel Gibson, Charlie Sheen makes a rush to rehab. Listen. Charlie Sheen was infamously fired from the CBS sitcom Two and a Half Men, in which he played the leading character for the first eight seasons back in 2011, after he began displaying erratic behavior. Now, at that time, Charlie had been dealing with drug and alcohol addiction for years. He'd previously entered rehab after experiencing a near-fatal overdose in 98,

and he'd faced allegations of physical and verbal abuse from multiple women, including his now ex-wife, Denise Richards, who claimed he threatened to kill her and their daughter, Sammy and Lola. The actor also denied that he had any addiction to drugs or alcohol and separately criticized Alcoholics Anonymous during an interview with USA Today

saying that it was for people that aren't special. Sheen eventually did get sober and now claims six years of sobriety. Okay, and of course, we can't ignore Alex Murdoch, convicted of double murder, when he's looking at the claims about the bodies of his wife and son found in a location where he just was, according to his cell phone, his answer to enter rehab. Listen. Three months after the murder of his wife and son

and just days after he is shot in the head during a staged roadside assassination, Alex Murdoch announces he is going into rehab to treat a 20-year addiction to opioids. In the hours leading up to his rehab announcement, Murdoch is fired by his law firm, accused of stealing thousands of dollars from clients' accounts. Alex Murdoch issued a statement that says, in part, The murders of my wife and son have caused an incredibly difficult time in my life. I have made a lot of decisions that I truly regret. I am resigning from my law firm and entering rehab after a long battle that has been exasperated by these murders. I am immensely sorry to everyone I've hurt, including my family, friends and colleagues.

I ask for prayers as I rehabilitate myself and my relationships. OK, well, the rehab stunt may work in California. It did not work in South Carolina. Murdoch goes down for double murder. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining us, Barry Hutchinson, Sr., former law enforcement owner and chief investigator for Barry and Associates Investigative Services. Barry, thank you for being with us. How many times have you seen a defendant, a suspect, a person of interest, anyone, whether they're a suspect or not,

get in hot water, get in trouble, and immediately rush to rehab. Oh, it's pretty much, you know, a common play, you know, in a defense handbook. You know, to me, it's defense lawyer 101 boy. And, you know, they have to, you have to understand, you know, a lot of times the defense has to have time, just like investigators have to have time to find out what's going on and formulate a defensive plan for their client. And I think that's exactly what's going on here. I think that he thinks that if he's locked away in rehab, they're not going to have access to him. He's not going to be interrogated further. He's not going to have immediate exposure to law enforcement that they can pry deeper into everything that's going on with this situation.

And Dale Carson brought it up regarding attorney-client confidentiality, physician-patient confidentiality. Whatever you say to a psych or a counselor in rehab would be protected. But if you're saying it in a group or you say it to your roommate or your bunkie, that is not protected under the Constitution. Joining me now, renowned medical examiner, toxicologist, pathologist, and opioid treatment expert. He is literally the one who wrote the book, the author of American Narcan, Naloxone and Heroin Fentanyl Associated Mortality. And that's what we've got here, according to what we think will soon be revealed in the toxicology reports in the autopsies of these three dead friends.

Dr. William Maroney joining us. Dr. Maroney, could you analyze for us, and please dumb me down for me, I'm just a JD, you're the MD, what you think of the levels that are circulating within these three deceased victims' bodies? I mean, fentanyl doesn't come laced with cocaine and vice versa. What happened in your mind, Dr. Maroney? drug problem all over large cities, rural areas, urban centers, and fentanyl, as I indicated in my book in 2017 and 18, is huge. People, governments, universities focused on prescription medicines, and that was like going bull hunting and shooting rabbits. Everybody has been off target. Fentanyl has creeped into fake pills.

Okay, first of all, what do you mean by a fake pill? If a drug dealer has people that are afraid of his powders, he says, hey, I got some Percocets. Hey, I got some Oxycontin 30s. Those aren't available anymore. They're fake. They're made in somebody's garage. They've got a pill press. They mix this stuff up in bowls just like brownies, and they wear masks, and they put the powder in the press, and they make fake pills that kind of look like pills that you'd get.

But real pharmacists and real doctors know the difference. And they're putting fentanyl in fake pills. And somebody would say, hey, have a Vicodin. Hey, but the Vicodin is not available. So they're making fake pills. So you have two choices. How did they get cocaine and fentanyl? The first choice is they took them separately with fake pills and cocaine. The second choice is they did cocaine knowing that they'd say, hey, you know, we had some beer, celebrate, got a little cocaine. And then there was fentanyl in the cocaine because that's what drug dealers are saying. This is special stuff, man. It's really going to help you out here.

But the truth is, and we have an example. In Kalamazoo, Michigan, there were 18 overdoses in one weekend, 10 deaths, and everybody died of fentanyl. But they went out looking to buy cocaine. And this is a nationwide problem of unintended fentanyl overdose deaths for people who've always just done stimulants. They think stimulant at the end of the bar at two o'clock in the morning. People do cocaine and they go to private after hours clubs and they dance all night. We have this problem of drug consumption and there is no end in sight. Hold on just a second. Dr. William Maroney is telling us about the fentanyl epidemic across our country. But as it relates to this case, Dr. Maroney, according to family

members, the victims had a fatal amount of fentanyl in their systems, three times the amount of a lethal fentanyl dose. Again, I'm not asking you to address the wider issue of fentanyl ODs and the epidemic in our country. I'm talking about this case. What would be a lethal OD overdose of fentanyl? What would that look like physically to our listeners and viewers if they were to see it? And what would that do to your body? Let's start at the beginning, okay? Starting with A.

What is a lethal dose of fentanyl for an average size male? I'm going to tell you that if you look at grains of salt, in an empty teaspoon, three or four crystals, three or four grains of salt will knock a 70 kilogram or 120 pound man dead in six minutes. Wait, that's almost too much to believe. Let me understand what you just said. Yeah. Guys, stay with me, please. I've got one of the world's foremost experts on opioid crises and fentanyl. I understand that you just said three specks, three crystals, like three salt crystals, would knock a grown man flat.

In six minutes, dead. Why do we even make fentanyl? Why is there even fentanyl? Why is it here? If it only takes three salt crystals worth to kill a grown man. Why does it even exist? Because in the drug pipeline, the changeover for profits eliminated heroin because fentanyl is so much more profitable. Fentanyl is cheaper to make than heroin. Is that what you're saying? A thousand times cheaper. Why? Why is fentanyl so cheap to make? And are pharmaceutical companies still making it?

Well, they make it for patches for hospice patients. But the reason why heroin has to be grown in a third world country, heroin has to be cultivated. You mean poppies? Yes. Then it's sent to France or Mexico and it's processed. This is labor. This is transportation. As opposed to like on Breaking Bad out in the desert in a mobile home, you can cook up fentanyl? It's done. We don't make it in America.

They make it cheaper somewhere else and then it comes across the border you're making me realize how easily these guys could have OD'd now a lot has been made of the way they were positioned where they were in the backyard as a matter of fact take a listen to what we've learned from one of the victim's brothers. Take a listen to Our Cut 28, Dave Mack, Crime Online. The mystery surrounding the deaths of three men who died outside in the cold while a fourth friend slept for two days in the house just took another odd turn. The brother of one of the deceased men, Ricky Johnson, says the way the men were found has him wondering what happened. One body was discovered on the back porch by police, while the two other deceased men were

found in the backyard. According to Jonathan Price, David Harrington was found on a lawn chair on the back porch, rather than all three men laying flat paints a picture they didn't have from the beginning. You know, renowned psychologist joining me from Manhattan, Karen Stark, TV radio trauma expert and consultant at KarenStark.com. That's Karen with a C in case you're trying to get in touch with her. Karen, I learned this really the hard way in court. I managed to save the case, but every detail matters. At first we heard that one victim was lying prone on the back porch and the other two were out in the garden in the

backyard. Now the brother of one of the victims has pointed out that the back porch victim was sitting in a lounge chair. Now does it make a difference? I don't know. But I do know this, Karen Stark, every single detail is important. Because there were reports that they had been dragged to the backyard and to the back porch. But who would drag a 200-plus-pound man and then prop him up in a lounge chair. I mean, every fact matters, Karen Stark. And right now these families are grappling with the facts. Is this a case of four, possibly five guys celebrating, partying, drinking, doing some cocaine that's laced with fentanyl? Can Maroney explain? Can cocaine laced with fentanyl have that much

fentanyl that it kills you? Was it the reverse? But about the details, Karen, why are they so important when we're grappling with who's telling the truth? What happened to these guys? Was it an accident? Was it more nefarious? Why'd this guy rush off, get a lawyer, and check into rehab? Details matter, Karen Stark. They certainly do, Nancy. Do you remember when we used to sit and listen to people who were in front of the police and they were trying to let them know their stories and giving all kinds of explanations? And we would look for ways that they were saying the smallest thing that didn't jive with everything else that they said.

When people are even talking to therapists like me, you really want to know every single specific fact so you can help them figure out their lives, make sense of things that have happened to them. And in this case, it's just such a strange story. We all have to be detectives trying to put together, how could this possibly have happened? Now there's fentanyl in the cocaine. We know that many people have died from that.

That makes a huge difference. So yes, the details really do matter. We've known that for years. Dr. William Maroney, jumping off what Karen Stark has just said, and remember to the rest of the panel, jump in if you have any thought on this. You're a think tank.

You're the brain trust, so please jump in. Dr. Maroney, would it be fentanyl mixed in with cocaine or cocaine mixed in with fentanyl? And do they look the same? You can't tell the difference as far as the size of the powder or the color, but it would always be fentanyl mixed in the cocaine because cocaine by itself is not fatal. The majority of it being cocaine, it's the vehicle now. It's what's used to deliver it.

And putting cocaine in fentanyl would mean that the volume of fentanyl would have to be cut. Nobody's going to do that. They sneak this stuff in and tell you it's really good cocaine. There's no drug dealer that's going to say, I've got some really good fentanyl for you because everybody's scared poopless of it. Nobody would really. Doc, aren't you saying that even if you tasted it, it could kill you,

which is the traditional way of testing cocaine yes yes but snorted and and that these people i would bet they're not regular users what what what karen stark i'm pretty sure that you could shoot up cocaine. You don't just snort it. And crack is also cocaine and that's lit up. So how would it appear, Dr. William Maroney? It's going to look like powder sugar and it's in small plastic square packets that fold over and people will put it in spoons and put it in their nose. People that want to get high with cocaine, we've been injecting cocaine for decades, but traditionally good old boys, football fans, big tough guys, they snort this stuff while they're drinking. It would be interesting to see what's the blood alcohol level with this, because then it'll tell you that it's a casual timeline, a chronological drug delivery that begins with alcohol, goes to cocaine.

And surprisingly, there's fentanyl in the cocaine. But we've seen this all across America. We've seen fentanyl in cocaine for almost a decade in New York, Boston, Baltimore, Detroit, Chicago. And people are afraid of it. That's why they make fake pills. It would also be very interesting, Barry Hutchins Sr., former LE and owner of Bury Associates Investigative Services, it would also be interesting to find out if cops went into the home and processed it with drug dogs, a canine that could actually smell, hey, were there lines of coke on the dining room table

or on the coffee table or on a plate or on any surface in that home, right? Nancy, that's correct. You know, one thing that the public needs to understand, I'm sure you understand this being a former prosecutor, in regards to a crime scene, there's a rule that's very prevalent, and that is that something is always left at a crime scene and something is always taken away from a crime scene. Now, that could be trace evidence.

It could be physical evidence. So I think certainly that a drug dog could have been used. I haven't heard that a drug dog could have been used. And I don't know what kind of search even took place at the house because it hasn't been made public here that I know of. But certainly I think that the Kansas City Police Department and the Platt County Prosecutor's Office are looking at every angle as far as searching everything. And you touched on something earlier I think is really important as well, that they can correct the fact of this guy moving out. And that can be argued to a jury to where they could say they only need one person to not believe the prosecution's story, you know, as to what happened. And so I think that they're deliberately putting things in place here that could stumble a jury, you know, later on in anticipation of prosecution of this case. And moving out so quickly, lock, stock and barrel gets rid of who knows how much evidence. And of course, Dr. Maroney, when you put dishes in the dishwasher and turn it on, there goes all the evidence off those plates or whatever surface was being used, whatever utensil, a bowl, a plate, a saucer.

Why are three guys outside? Does fentanyl do something with thermogenesis in the body, making us want to be cooler? I don't know the answer to that question, but there's a reason they were all outside when they died. As a matter of fact, Dale Carson, you're exactly correct. What does the temperature have to do with it? Well, it was not freezing. Listen. David Harrington's father is also challenging the idea that the men froze to death. Daily Mail reports John Harrington saying, I don't think it's very likely they froze to death like some people are saying. It just wasn't cold enough. The temperature for Kansas City late in the night of Sunday, January 7, was around 36 degrees, and the temp remained above freezing all day Monday, January 8.

Tuesday, January 9, was the coldest day when it was 26 degrees by 2 p.m. and 20 at 10 p.m. The first 36 hours of the mystery, the temp is at or above freezing, and it is only the last 12 hours where it gets really cold. But that is a common misconception that the temp has to be freezing for a person to freeze to death. You don't freeze to death. It's not like putting a popsicle in the freezer. You get hypothermia and you die basically from exposure to cold temps. But what were you saying, Barry Hutchinson, following up on what Dale Carson brought up? One of the big things I think that's going to be one of the key turning points of the investigation is going to be the toxicology report and, you know, with everything included in it. A question that I would have is, you know, why were these guys outside in the very early morning hours when this happened?

And to me, one thing stands out. They would be outside because they were out there smoking either cigarettes or marijuana because this was a rented home, and probably on the lease it says that they're not allowed to smoke in the house. So that would explain why they were outside at that point. Now, whether the drugs were ingested through marijuana or the cocaine or both is yet to be seen. But I think that's going to play a key part in the discovery process of all the evidence involved. That's going to help narrow down and shake through the funnel, if you will, the key elements of the case, coupled back with what you spoke of earlier this week, Nancy, with the phone records of every single person that were involved in being there that night. I think that's going to be a key element. And, you know, addressing the aspect

of somebody being drug, you know, or dragged rather to the outside area. I don't see that happening because one of the guys, at least not by one person anyway, because it's my understanding that one of the, one of the victims involved was an approximation of 300 pounds. And that is a lot of weight. That's not assisting you to be dragged anywhere. I mean, if you go to the police Academy, you know, one of the tests you have to take in the police academy to even get into the police academy is a dummy drag. And that dummy drag is 160 pound dummy, but it's dead weight and it feels like it weighs 500 pounds when you grab a hold of it.

So I don't think that one person could have drugged that that individual, individual that was a victim that night, outside without the help of somebody else. So I think that's going to be a key element also that's going to be investigated. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To you, Dr. William Maroney, expert in not only fentanyl, but all sorts of opioid-related deaths and studies of it. Dr. Maroney, what do you make of what we're saying regarding Dale Carson's question? Is there something about fentanyl that makes you hot? Would they want to go outside in those kind of temperatures? And also address the issue of freezing.

Well, I agree that there's no way anybody froze there. I lived in Kansas City for 12 years. It gets cold a little bit, but it's warmer during the day, and it's not as cold as Chicago. That's off the table. But everybody that gets real close to a fentanyl overdose, and I see non-fatal overdoses. They come in, they talk to me, they enter into treatment in my clinic. So they're non-fatal overdoses. And then I see the fatal overdoses when we go to autopsy and we work with the pathologist and the police try to reconstruct it. Everybody that's around a fatal overdose tries to get them cold air. And if you feel yourself falling out, you look for cold, fresh air. So they could have been in the house and it sounds good that they would went out to smoke but if they would have felt the

fentanyl kicking in they would have said you know I need some fresh air kind of like when you're in that bar all night long and it's smoky and it's hot and you had a little too much to drink you step outside that cold air it straightens you up right away with away when you're drinking alcohol. It does not straighten you up with fentanyl, but you seek something cold. And if you think you're going to fall out, you sit down, you look for a chair, you lean up against the car. And sometimes on death scenes and crime scenes, the people around the person that's overdosing throw them in a cold shower. So that's what people seek.

That is the other reason why they would have been outside. They felt they were going to fall out. They started feeling sleepy. They couldn't think. They were drooling. It was difficult to breathe. So you step outside to get something to straighten up before you fall out. I mean, Dr. Maroney, you and I have talked about this a hundred times before, but it's elementary. It was even in The Wizard of Oz.

Remember when Dorothy fell asleep, right? In the poppy field? Snow. She made herself comfortable. Snow had to wake her up. The cold woke her up. That's not just a kid's story. They seek the cold to straighten up. So was the culprit, is the guilty culprit in the death of three Kansas City Chiefs fans. All three best friends, all too common. A fentanyl O. Did you hear Dr. William Maroney? Trust me, if he says it about fentanyl or opioids, it's right. That three grains like salt, grains of salt are enough to kill a grown man? Is that the culprit, the all-too-common culprit, the killer in America and in this case? But we've got another problem. Take a listen to Nicole Parton, Crime Online, Cut 3-2.

Caleb McGinney says his cousin Clay Clayton McGinney, was his best friend. Caleb claims Jordan Willis has been known since high school as the chemist who would make drugs for the specific needs of the individual. McGinney also says that Ricky Johnson, Clayton McGinney, and David Harrington were all best friends. They all knew Jordan Willis from high school. But from a close-knit, quote, friendship standpoint, Jordan Willis was kind of off to the side. Does anybody remember the incredibly popular weekly program, All in the Family? The star was Archie Bunker. In real life, Carol O'Connor. He went head to head in court with his son's drug supplier. His son died of an overdose and Carroll O'Connor won. So based on what we're hearing from Nicole

Parton at CrimeOnline.com, is there culpability on behalf of the friend slash co-owner? Did he personally mix the drugs for his friends? Did he know or not know fentanyl was involved? The fact that all three of them outside had fentanyl in their system is no coincidence. What about the friend slash homeowner? Did he have fentanyl or cocaine in his system? Was he even tested? Those are answers we don't know. But to high profile lawyer joining us out of Jacksonville, Dale Carson, would he be responsible if he personally mixed the drugs?

There's no question. If they find the chemical similarity between the drugs that are laying around in that house somewhere and the drugs that are on the clothing or the face of these individuals who died, he's definitely chargeable. And as I said

in Florida, it's now a death penalty charge. So if they find a supplier anywhere, that individual is likely to be charged with manslaughter in other states, possibly second degree murder. Many family members of the three victims are hearing none of it. Listen. Harrington's girlfriend of 17 years flat out says David was murdered. Those three guys were murdered. The Kansas City police said from the very beginning the deaths are not being investigated as a homicide, but Lori Cruz

says her boyfriend of 17 years did not use drugs and that he was murdered. Since early in the investigation, police have said the case is not being investigated as foul play, but some of the loved ones of the deceased believe Willis played a role in their deaths. John Harrington, father of David Harrington, whose body was found on the open porch, said that he and David's mother both are convinced that Jordan Willis played a part in the deaths. With conflicting reports about what really happened that night to you, Dr. William Maroney, can you assume that if there was a report indicating three times the level of a deadly dose of fentanyl, which really wouldn't be that much, according to you, it would be like nine grams of salt, would that be considered the COD cause of death? A hundred percent. When we look at toxicology, we look at

the references and unless we have any other history to contradict that, like coronary artery disease or asthma, fentanyl is at the top of the list. Fentanyl is the number one killer between the age of 19 and 50 in Americans with drug toxicity deaths. And the other thing is, when we look at the ratio, I know I'm going to talk science here. It's a little bit of medicine. Forgive me. versus norfentanyl, the first metabolite, if the fentanyl is out there in a 10 to 1 ratio, then these guys got the drug and died within minutes. But why not the homeowner? Why not the friend?

Drug dealers don't like doing their own drugs. They don't make money doing that. Then this is all about economies of of scale the more he has to sell we not only have to look at the house look at the garbage look at what he's he's had out there look in the garage look in the basement and other people will come out and talk about this person either selling cocaine and they've had fentanyl but but they didn't die. Or he's pressing fraudulent tablets that are to look like OxyContin, but they're really fentanyl. If you look back at that ratio, the ratio of the parent compound to the metabolite will tell you how fast they died.

It's going to be critical too. The other problem to you, Barry Hutchinson Sr., Karen Stark, and Dale Carson, are all the, let me just say euphemistically, conflicting statements, inconsistent statements, also known as lies, that the homeowner slash friend has told that there wasn't a fifth person there and then the fifth person emerges. That his dogs were at his dad's house, that's important because in almost three days when you have to take dogs outside, the fifth friend says no they were there at midnight, the night of the death. It just goes on and on.

Did the guys leave and come back? Were they there the whole time? Were they dragged outside? The doors were locked, The doors were unlocked. I mean, those are just some of the inconsistent reports given by the friend slash homeowner. That doesn't look good, Barry Hutchinson, senior, because if this is just a horrible accident and the only culprit is fentanyl, then why lie? Well, I think that this individual that was the homeowner there, I think that he realizes that the accusatory finger is going to be pointing at him. I think that he's smart enough to understand

that. I think he's trying to come up with some kind of, you know, plausible deniability of being involved. I think that he's trying to make up a story that, hey, it wasn't me, it wasn't this, it wasn't that. But there's so much, there's so many statements and so many things that are really starting to point the finger toward him. It's becoming insurmountable. And, you know, the truth. Let's remember. Hold on, hold on. I was just going to go to you, Dale and Karen Stark.

Dale Carson, that's what I love about trying multiple defendants at the same time. They all start doing this at trial, pointing at each other. You got that fifth friend who many have speculated, oh, he's the dope dealer. We don't know that. I don't know where that came from, but it's out there. And you've out there. And you've got him and then you have the friend slash homeowner. One of them knows what happened. And pretty soon I predict they're going to start blaming each other. Well, of course, but it's

in a rural area, which manufacturers of narcotics like to be in rural areas. So if it was manufactured in the house, they're going to find the residue. Wait, are you calling Kansas City, Missouri a rural area? I'm calling where that house is a rural area. Is that true, Grace Smith? I wouldn't call it a rural area. It is probably 25 minutes from downtown, but it's still very populated. The area is very nice, truthfully. There's a huge shopping center just near it. So it's more suburban?

It is on the outskirts of town, but it's not, I wouldn't call it rural. Nancy, that area is what's commonly known to people in the Kansas City area as the Northland. And it's an area that's heavily populated with large neighborhoods. You know, the street that is directly to the backyard of this residence where this occurred is a four-lane highway called Berry Road. It's a very, very populated area, a lot of heavy traffic area right there. So it's not a rural setting per se, but I do understand what he's trying to get to is that, you know, in the rural areas, a lot of that goes on because it's easily undetected.

Well, I mean, I agree with you, Barry Hutchinson. Every time we hear about a mobile home blowing up or a house in a rural area just blowing up, we're like, well, they're cooking up some meth. So, Dale Carson, you got that rural part all wrong, but you want to just step back and punt? No, no. When they rent houses, the homeowner doesn't own this house. He's not the suspect.

He's not the one who's in rehab. Dale Carson, you're right. We're calling him the homeowner, but he was the home renter. And how does that factor into your analysis? Well, people who are doing criminal things are not likely to do it in their own backyard, meaning their own home. And so they rent these houses. I mean, we frequently call them trap houses. I don't know whether this is a trap house because I haven't been out there, but certainly that's how narcotics are managed so that the individual who owns the house typically is not involved,

doesn't know anything about it. So Karen Stark, psychologist joining us out of Manhattan, weigh in on this. Well, Nancy, what I was going to talk about was the fact that the person who was renting, who's now in rehab, was there for days and was not answering any calls when these three guys disappeared. I also want to say something about the condition they were in, because if they were that high and really starting to get sick, they're not making sense what they're doing. So they'd go outside. They wouldn't realize to come back inside that it was freezing cold. But the whole idea that he wasn't responding, this person who was renting, that he was ignoring

the fact that there were bodies out there, that he was ignoring the family is so suspicious. I haven't heard anything like that. That's just crazy. Who is the culprit? In every tragedy, there's not always a criminal charge. Is there one here? We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.