Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - CRUISE SHIP ANNA KEPNER ASSAULTED, STRANGLED, STEP-BRO UNMASKED

Episode Date: April 15, 2026

We now know Anna Kepner's stepbrother sex assaulted the 18-year-old before he killed her. That according to court documents.   He is now charged in federal court with murder and aggravated sexual abuse. The arrest comes months after Anna Kepner dies on a cruise with her family.  The manner of death  ruled a homicide by mechanical asphyxiation. Anna Kepner, 18, had begun her senior year at Temple Christian School, and was reportedly excited about her future, painting her school parking spot to match her favorite movie, "Clueless. "   Anna plans included joining the military after high school.   Anna was found dead aboard the Carnival Horizon cruise ship during a recent western Caribbean voyage that ended in Miami. Her body stuffed under a bunk in the room she shared with her stepbrother.     Joining Nancy Grace today:  Danny Rubin -  Criminal Defense Lawyer and Founder of Rubin Law, PC. website: rubinlawpc.com Dr. Geri-Lynn Utter  - Clinical Psychologist specializing in psychological evaluations and risk assessments for individuals involved in the criminal justice system, Author of “Mainlining Philly: Survival, Hope and Resisting Drug Addition,” and “Aftershock: How Past Event Shake Up Your Life Today”, and Producer of “Utter Nonsense,” a documentary of exploration of addition and severe mental illness, available to stream on Apple TV and Prime Video, website:drgerilynnutter.com, Instagram & Facebook: DrGeriLynnUtter  Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan", Instagram @JoScottForensic Sydney Sumner  -  Investigative Reporter, ‘Crime Stories’  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The cruise ship girl teen, Anna Kepner, scrubbed in sunshine. Tonight, we learn, was sex assaulted before she was mechanically strangled dead on the cruise ship. And tonight, for the first time, that stepbrother of hers, unmasked. We see his face for the first time. Now, he is indicted. I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime stories. I want to thank you for being with us. A beautiful young teen cheerleader

found dead on a cruise ship. Her body there for hours and hours before anyone even notices she's missing? Where were the parents for Pete's sake? It happened all right, and it is a torpedo to the defense. All this time, family, friends, the media, legal eagles like you, waiting for an answer in the brutal murder of Anna Kepner. Her body found nude, wrapped up in blankets, and stuffed under a twin bed on the cruise ship. Then stuffed on top of that life jacket, someone desperately trying to conceal her body until a maid comes the following morning to clean the room and makes the

discovery, the horrific discovery of a ting girl dead stuffed under a bed. Tonight, finally, will there be justice? Sydney Solvani, Crime Stories investigative reporter, what happened? Is it true? According

to federal documents. And the feds don't play. Let me tell you. We kept wondering why they were waiting and waiting and waiting. As the former Fed, I can tell you this. We wouldn't take one toe to the courtroom, even close to it, unless we had rooms full of boxes of documents. So now there's an indictment. Is it true, Sidney Sumner, that the documents reveal she was sex assaulted before she was strangled? That's correct. Timothy Hudson is accused of sexually assaulting and then killing his stepsister, Anna, kept her.

And we know that these charges actually came down, but the record was sealed until Friday. The problem I have with all of this is it's reported that all these family members stayed in the same room. How is it if you're with your father that you go to sleep as a dad and you don't see your daughter and she's not in the room? That just doesn't sit right with me as an investigator starting to look into this. And then the next morning, it's 9 o'clock. Everyone's eating buffet. And all of a sudden, where's Anna? Seriously?

So as an investigator, the FBI is going to have an issue of trying to figure out who's with Anna, who was the last person with her, who went to her cabin with her, because it was already reported that she went back earlier in the night because she didn't feel good. That's a problem. Bombshell tonight, the stepbrother of a teen girl high school. school cheerleader killed on board a carnival cruise ship last year has been officially charged with her murder and he is being charged as an adult. For those of you just joining us, for those of you that may not be familiar with the brutal

murder of Anna Ketner aboard a carnival cruise ship straight out to Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star of a hit podcast series, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott Morgan joining us. What happened to this teen girl? As her parents, the stepmother and the biodad, were right across the hall. They didn't see her for what did we figure out, like 18 hours on a cruise ship? Seriously?

What happened to Anna? Well, according to what the federal indictment is saying now, and we've already had a tease about this, is that she died as a result of what they're calling mechanical asphy. And now I've heard the term arm bar used multiple times, which is very, very specific, Nancy, where they're talking about that someone laid their forearm, which would be what we refer to as the blade of the arm right here across the neck. And that is across the anterior aspect of the neck.

There's one little tidbit here that I found out that she's apparently got, two areas right here that may be hemorrhage and why is this significant? Well it's significant because this attack would have had to have occurred from the front. Pressure being placed down on the anterior neck, that's the front of the neck and literally crushing the trachea or compressing it to the point where she could not breathe. And in my opinion, at least, what's happening here is that you've got weight that's settling down on her. Nancy, she would have been struggling for breath, to add to this, as you mentioned, they are saying now that she has been sexually assaulted.

This is going to be significant from an evidentiary standpoint where, you know, there's been all kinds of things that have been said about who was in and out of the cabin. Nancy, this is, like you said, this is a big torpedo right into the broad side of the defense's case. There were all the warning signs. Very, very disturbing, Joe Scott Morgan, because long before Anna Ketner's death, her parents were warned. This stepbrother now indicted in her assault, her sex assault, and her murder. There were all the warnings that the stepbrother had tried to sex assault her before, and nothing was done. Nothing was done.

And I'm going to go out on a limb tonight and ask for a review of the parents' conduct, because I consider that to be child neglect. Neglecting claims that your daughter is in danger. You do nothing. In fact, it's more than doing nothing, Joe Scott. They put her in a room with the stepbrother that had reportedly tried to sex assault her in the past. Joe Scott, I want you to listen to this. He heard him yelling at her, like, in a harmful way of, like, shut the hell up and stuff like that.

Like, something was, like, banging around and stuff, and, like, the chairs were getting thrown around in the room. Though Anna's stepbrother tells family members he has no recollection of what happened to Anna, her brother tells a friend he heard a heated argument between them in their shared cabin the night before Anna was found dead. Anna's brother tells her ex-boyfriend, Joshua, too, that he heard the stepbrother yelling at Anna, the sounds of furniture overturning and screams from inside their room. Straight out to veteran defense attorney, Dan Rubin joining us, founder of Rubin law firm, joining us out of L.A. where a lot of cruise ships take off from near you. Danny Rubin got a question for you. Of course, everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty under the law.

Done. You don't need to start reciting that monster. to me tonight. But what is your take? I'm not talking about the stepbrother right now. I'm talking about the parents who were warned. And I'm going to show you some more evidence of how I believe they knew the stepbrother had tried to molest Anna in the past at least once. She told people she was afraid of him. Why in the H-E-Double L do they think it's okay to put her in the room along with him and the little brother that he kicked out, locked him out of the cruise ship room all night long. What were they thinking?

I mean, if they had some sort of allegation, obviously that's something to consider. But you have to assume that the parents investigated this. They talked to their kids about it. They probably had some family conversations about it. And then they only after that made the choice to put them in the same room together. Now, as a parent myself, I would never willingly put my kids in danger.

You have to assume that they investigated this and found that there was nothing to it or if there was nothing to it. They addressed it. Since Anna was killed, Danny, they have done everything they can to protect the stepson.

Everything has been all about protecting him, keeping his name secret, not letting anybody find out that he was a suspect. I mean, I have got so much intel on that. It's coming out my ears instead of looking for justice for Anna. Now, why would I assume, given their behavior, that they tried to protect Anna.

They put her in the room. You know what? Listen to this. She just didn't feel safe around him. She's scared to tell anybody because she was scared that he would do something to her. Joshua, too, says Anna's close relationship with her stepbrother. was one-sided. The 16-year-old is obsessed with Anna and made her uncomfortable with romantic advances. He once even caught him trying to climb into Anna's bed while the two were on FaceTime, Anna already asleep.

He says, Dad, I tried to tell the parents that this was happening and they didn't want to believe me. He's like infatuated, attracted to her like crazy. He's always wanted to date her. Chris doesn't realize it's his fault. This whole thing is his fault. If he would have taken the warnings that Anna's ex-boyfriend gave him, then she would still be here. So keep that in mind, Christopher. I blame you. She said it. I didn't say it.

She said it. That's our friends at Inside Edition and Just Mom 1984 on TikTok. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Let me understand. to Sidney Silvani joining us crime stories investigative reporter

Sydney it's my understanding that the parents said the boyfriend was lying lying about the incident where he's

FaceTiming her he can see what's happening on FaceTime it's like a phone call with video live and she Anna

dozes off it's late at night they're talking she dozes off and it's late at night they're talking she dozes off and it's It's then that he sees, according to the boyfriend, the stepbrother crawl on top of Anna Kepner and she fights him off. I also understand that the parents say the boyfriend lied about all that.

He made it all up. What do you know, Sidney? We know that Chris Kepner, yes, claims that this story was a lie that Joshua 2 made this up in front of the cameras after Anna's death. And he says he has screenshots to prove in a conversation with Anna that Joshua was lying about this. Is the boyfriend lying? Did he lie about what he saw on FaceTime? You decide. Look at him again.

She just didn't feel safe around him. She's scared to tell anybody because she was scared that he would do something to her. He said that I tried to tell the parents that this was happening. and they didn't want to believe me. He's like infatuated, attracted to her like crazy. He's always wanted to date her. From our friends over at Inside Edition, straight out to special guests joining us,

Dr. Geraldine Utter, clinical psychologist specializing in psych evaluations, risk assessments for individuals in the criminal justice system. I almost called him a kid, but he's not a kid. He's being treated as an adult in court. He should have been assessed for criminal justice. for criminal behavior. Author of Mainlining Philly,

author of Aftershock, How Past Events Shake Up Your Life Today, and producer of utter nonsense, a documentary. Dr. Geraldine Utter, why is it so many parents choose to put on blinders, to be blind to what is happening right in front of them?

You've got the little boyfriend saying, he tried to sex assault, your daughter. You've got the boyfriend. friend's father saying, hey, we warned them this was happening. Now she's dead, Dr. Gerlin. She's dead. And what I and a lot of legal eagles, not just me, predicted months ago when Anna was first murdered, has been borne out by a federal indictment. Her own stepbrother is charged. I'm so mad I could chew a nil and half because this could have been, this could have been avoided. This indictment, this murder, this alleged sex assault could have been avoided if the parents had listened.

What? What is happening in the minds of parents? They don't want to believe something like that could happen in their family? That's it. That's exactly it. So you're looking at a blended family scenario, Nancy, and you have a stepbrother, you know, step-sister, Anna, and her, you know, her stepbrother, if you will. So a lot of the times, you know, they have this family. They want everything to go well.

Everybody wants this blended family to work out and to be successful. But I can't completely rely on that. I have kids myself. I work with juveniles. I work with adults. If at any point in time, you know, I have a daughter and I can see that her affects different. I mean, it's probably obvious that when you're on a cruise together, that she's trying to

avoid him. If she's afraid of him, she's trying to avoid him. Going back to the cabin earlier, maybe locking the door, you know, keeping her distance from him. sharing with the boyfriend that she doesn't feel safe. If I'm the parent, I'm going to look into that. And even if at the end of the day, it's decided, hey, you know, nothing happened, I'm still going to do everything I can to protect my child and at minimum get a different room in the cruise on the ship. So when we look at incidents like this, it escalated because there was an opportunity.

They were it. They were in a room together. It was close quarters. She didn't have a lot of other places to go. She's either out and about on the cruise ship or she's in a room that they share. So when we look at the crime and the behavior of the brother, it is something that is planned and premeditated, but also there's nowhere else for her to go. She's saying she doesn't feel good and she goes to the room and that's where they're staying together. So that's something that's very concerning. Another thing that I just wanted to throw out there, Nancy, is he is being charged as an adult, even though he's 16 years old. Something that the defense may say is that nor developmentally, his prefrontal cortex isn't developed. He's still immature.

you know, it was impulsive. It's something that happened. And I just want to kind of throw out there, you know, to everyone right now, yes, even though he's 16 and his brain may not be developed, and it was something that was building up and to your point that was not addressed by the parents, this is something that could have been prevented. You're putting a lot of conflicting thoughts into one monologue, and they're all valid. And I'm going to break him down. Number one, I don't want to hear about his frontal cortex or whatever you just said. She's dead. The feds, I was a fed for three years.

I know how the feds work. They don't play. They would not have gone forward if they didn't have him. Lock stock and smoking gun barrel. Done. I'm just telling you that. So I don't want to hear about his brain may not be developed. She's dead, whether his brain was developed or not.

According to the feds, he did it. Now, I want to tell you something that according to Social, this is written by Chris Kepner, Anna's biological father. Absolutely, no evidence of him any sort of way about Anna is very convoluted, no matter the claims or any of that. So, no, nothing was ever brought to any of our attention for the past two and a half years. Really? Well, if I know what the boyfriend said, how is it that he doesn't know what the boyfriend said? How come we all know, but her own family doesn't know or they don't want to know? You know, you know what's happening right now to Danny Rubin, veteran criminal defense attorney?

You know, you must feel this way sometimes even though you may not want to admit it that you see violent cases like this. And it feels better to have somebody to blame, to say, you did this because I think, Danny, it makes other people, me, you, others, think, well, I would never do this, so this is not going to happen to me. Because I would never fill in the blank. And I first became aware of this phenomenon in rape cases where people would blame the victim saying, she shouldn't have gone to a bar at 11 o'clock at night, this is her fault, or she shouldn't have worn a miniskirt, this is her fault, or she shouldn't have gone jogging in a jogging bra. I would never do that, because it makes you feel safer to judge somebody else.

And right now, I'm really coming down on her parents. But frankly, Danny, I think it's justified. Because if I know the boyfriend warned them, then how come they didn't know? They did know because they said he was lying. They knew of his claims, Danny. I mean, if we believe the boyfriend, number one, we have a 17-year-old saying, I told you so. To me, it's always a little bit of a suspect kind of thing

because if he just told the parents but not his own parents, I have questions about that. But also, I mean, you have a parent who's being confronted by a 17-year-old boyfriend. You have no idea what the relationship was like. Was it antagonistic? Was it friendly? Was it amicable? We don't know. And all of a sudden, this guy is saying, oh, your other son is a dangerous guy. I mean, your first thought as a parent is, get out of here. You don't know what you're talking about.

Let me talk to my son and see what's going on. The son's inevitably going to say, it wasn't me, I didn't do anything. You turn to the 17-year-old who's dating your daughter, again, don't know their relationship. And he says, I talk to my son and this is nonsense. Where are you coming from on this? What's your proof? we don't know what their conversation was like. Anna Kepner's body was found. Anna was dead. Stuffed under a bump, under one of the beds in the room. Do we have proof that her stepbrother did this?

To this day, we don't have any answers at this point. The parent's involvement, or lack thereof, is a whole other can of worms, because tonight the stepbrother is unmasked, his face seen for the... first time. Now, I want to talk about the indictment. Straight back out to Sydney Silvani, joining us Crime Stories Investigative Reporter. What can you tell me? Nancy, this indictment was unsealed just a few days ago, and we're learning that this teenager is accused of sexually assaulting

his older step-sister and then choking her to death to cover up that crime. So we're learning that 16-year-old is going to be charged as an adult. That's why we have this indictment unsealed today. These charges were first filed in February, and he was indicted March 10th, and here we are today learning about all of this now. Bommel tonight, Anna Kepner's stepbrother, now charged months and months after she was found dead on a cruise ship. He will be tried as an adult. curious why these charges go down in federal court. What about it, Rubin? Yeah, so when it comes to the federal indictment, the fact is that generally because the charge is so heinous and because the crimes alleged are so severe, the court is likely unsealed

this docket and it's trying him as an adult. Okay, let me understand. You're saying because the case is so heinous, that's why they're trying him as an adult? Well, more because the charges are such that they are severe, it's murder, and essentially forcible rape. And additionally, the way it was done, the premeditation, the fact that there's sexual component that was premeditated is what they're alleging, that's why he's being tried as an adult. But why by the feds? Because all our legal eagles know that there are typically seven deadlies.

and if a juvenile is charged with one of the seven deadlies being rape, sodomy, child molestation, murder, arson, armed robbery, aggravated assault, if they're charged with any of those, which are the seven deadly sins, as they are called in many juvenile justice systems, the case will be bound over, transferred from juvenile court to adult court. Sometimes there's a hearing involved, sometimes not. But that said, they become candid. to be tried as an adult if charged with one of the seven deadly sins, two of which are manifested

here, according to the indictment. That's why he's being tried as an adult because he committed allegedly a deadly. But why in the federal system? Generally, because this happened in maritime waters. Essentially, because it wasn't conducted in the continental United States on land, and it was done on sea, the federal jurisdiction takes over from there. No state has jurisdiction over that. And also, I would say that the Fed does want this case because it is so sensationalized. I mean, the fact is that this is a very, very newsworthy case. The federal government does have that jurisdiction.

It deals with maritime issues. It deals with cruise ships that are in interstate water, that are intercontinental, sometimes. waters, and that affects the interstate commerce through which the Fed retains jurisdiction. At the time when this occurred, the St.brother's case stayed under seal, but U.S. District Court Judge Beth Bloom has now ordered it transferred for adult prosecution, and the stepbrother is officially charged with first-degree murder and aggravated sex abuse. That means to me that there was some sort of a hearing before it was determined he would be tried as an adult. Straight back out to Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics Jacksonville State University

and Star of Bodybags with Joe Scott Morgan. I want to go over what we know regarding the case. Specifically, this is an aggravated assault, aggravated sex abuse case. not that there is a typical rape case, but this is aggravated, which means in some way, and we don't know the facts yet, it is more inflammatory, it's worse. I'd like to go over with you specifically the evidence left behind on her neck. What were you saying earlier? Yeah, so what has been stated, Nancy, previously, is that an arm bar was used. used and arm bar means that the forearm is literally laid across the anterior neck, the front of

the neck, and there is a compression event that takes place. I mean, any of our friends out there that are listening can identify with this, right? You can't catch her breath. There's something occluding your airway, perhaps, or if you've ever been in a tight space, she's fighting as well in this, this. This goes to the aggravation, right? You begin to think about this as a violent attack. She's resisting perhaps. And he is not only pressing down, allegedly, on her neck, she's also trying to fight against him, and she's trying to get away from him. All the while, the sex attack is going on. So this is going to lead to a mark on her neck that is really going to stand out, what we will find out. And by the way, her examination was done by the Miami-Dade Medical

examiner's office, which is one of the finest in the country. This is going to be a very thorough examination. We're going to learn a lot about the associated hemorrhage in the neck. Find out if this arm or this arm could have generated that since they're talking about an arm bar. And Nancy, I got to tell you, I'm very interested to know what the trachea looked like. Is it fractured? We have cartilage in our trachea, and you can fracture cartilage. I'm wondering about that as well. Um, there's, there's so much evidence to be had here. And if I could just interject this, there is one, one report that comes from superseding indictment where Nancy, they use the term penetrative. Okay. Now, what does that mean? That means that along with this attack,

and they're putting a sexual element in here, that there is a penetrative element to this attack, I, a rape. And, you know, for any lawyer that's out there, you know, when you begin to think about, well, you know, you can explain away his DNA, DNA in this environment. Yeah, you can. You know, where you can't explain it away. You cannot explain it away in her very intimate area. That's something that, you know, as they say, that dog ain't going to hunt. And that's going to be a major problem for them, Nancy. Put Joe Scott up, please. Joe Scott, look around. Are you in preschool? Are you in the first grade? No, you're not. You're on crime stories. tell it like it is what is an intimate area what are you saying speak english to me you're talking about

her vagina her rectum her all of her genitalia now tell me flat out what you're looking for well what i'm talking about is this was going to be a violent sexual assault and here's another bit of a clue that we have and this was mentioned at the top of the show we talked about how that this was something that occurred before her death, Nancy. And so what does that mean? They saw evidence probably at autopsy that there are hemorrhagic tears, rips, abrasions, contusions that are in her vaginal anal area. And so that is going to be very easily demonstrated in court photographically.

This is going to hit the jury in the chest like a 10-pound sledgehammer when they see how violent this attack, this attack potentially was. And, you know, again, we go back to this idea that she's been very, very resistant. Here's one other piece as well. We all know, Nancy, you and I have been covering cases for a long, long time. What do victims do when they're being assaulted? They try to defend themselves. I want to know, and we see her beautiful nails that have been displayed. been displayed. She's on a cruise. She's probably got her nails that have been done prior to going

on the on the cruise. They would have done nail scrapings and trimmings. They have her fingernails, Nancy. And I really wonder if there's going to be biological evidence, i.e. skin cells, maybe his blood underneath those nails. I also want to know probably, well, what's significant. Did anybody see anything on him, any kind of scratches on his face? his neck, his chest, his hands, his arm, and was that documented? That's going to be essential in this case. Anna, teen girl Anna, was a senior at Temple Christian School, a cheerleader. She was to graduate this month, 26.

She loved children, dolphins, butterflies, arts and crafts. She loved doing puzzles with her grandma. She got her boaters license before she could drive, and she was Patty certified to dive in deep water. Loved all music except heavy metal. She planned to join the U.S. Navy and then go on to law enforcement to become a canine officer. It's painful that we are. describing her in life. It seems like no one else is talking about Anna.

Everyone's talking about a juvenile being charged as an adult. You just heard Joe Scott Morgan who has handled over 1,000 death scenes, death scenes of all sorts, be they accident, suicide, natural causes like heart attack or stroke, undetermined, or homicide. talking about was the defendant, the stepbrother, examined immediately after? Did anyone look at his body

for clues? Were there scratches on him? Were there bruises on him? We may never know because seemingly the family did everything they could to protect him. Listen.

He was a good student. He played soccer. Very quiet young man. He had demons, I think, in his past, and he was trying to deal with those. Barbara and Jeffrey Kepner are shocked, and his 16-year-old stepbrother is being eyed as a suspect in her murder, describing them as two peas in a pod and very close. She says the teen was distraught when he learned Anna's body was found and couldn't speak during an initial interview with FBI agents. Barbara says the teen claims he can't.

remember what happened and was hospitalized for psychiatric observation when they arrived back in Miami. From our friends at ABC couldn't speak or wouldn't speak. Because I'm pretty sure, Sidney, that that morning at the buffet, when the parents roll up to the food trough, he was acting normally. No one said they noticed him behaving any differently until the body's found. So is it couldn't or wouldn't speak? And I've had it up to here, hearing about what a great athlete and quiet young man he was, how they were two peas in a pot. They're still playing out this fantasy that Anna was not afraid of him, Sidney. Right.

This young man, this teenager was not upset over Anna's death, over finding Anna's body. he was upset that he got caught. That's clearly what this is. Anna's body was stuffed under her bed. This was a terrible cover-up job, and he was disappointed that his life was going to change forever, that he's going to spend a considerable amount of time behind bars if prosecutors can prove that he did this to his step-sister.

Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Straight out to Danny Rubin joining us. He's the veteran defense attorney joining us out of L.A., founder of the Rubin Law Firm. Dan, as you know, judges instruct the jury with jury instructions. That's the last thing they hear before they go to jury deliberations. Not closing arguments. Following closing arguments, the judge gives jury instructions the law by which they are to judge the facts. and they alone are the sole judge of the facts and the law. Isn't it true that they will be told they, the jury, are allowed to consider behavior before, during, and after the incident. Isn't that true?

Of course they are. They're able to consider the events leading up to the events at issue. They're able to consider prior relationships. They are able to consider conduct. by the victim, by the defendant, by the parents, by everyone. What they can't consider is the character of the defendant, but that's a totally separate thing. But yeah, conduct is very much going to be at issue.

Put them up, please. Of course, they cannot consider character or reputation unless and until, of course, the defense brings it up what a great kid he is. Once they do that, the demons, Did you hear the grandma? I guess that was a grandma saying he had demons. Well, if even the grandma knows that this teen has demons,

why in the H-E-E-W did they put the daughter in the room with him? I don't get it. They knew he had demons. Now, I can only imagine what those demons are, but what I'm getting at is the body was hidden. Anna, Teen Girl Anna's body was hidden. We're now learning, nude naked under the bed. Let's see the inside of that cruise room, cruise ship room, please,

or a facsimile thereof. She was hidden. She was covered with a blank, wrapped up in a blanket, and life that stuffed on top of her body. Now, question, Danny, don't you believe that that is an indication he knew what he had done was wrong? He had to hide it. I mean, this goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden for Pete's sake. Why didn't I argue this to a jury? I just thought of it. Day late and a dollar short. Even Adam and Eve, when they knew they did something wrong, they hid. They hid. It's a very old story. He hid the body and then pretended everything's fine. Doesn't that indicate he knew what he did was wrong? I think the issue is going to be when he realized what he did was wrong. I mean, the premeditation goes to, do he premeditate to rape and murder her?

Or was this just a crime of passion? He realized what he had done only afterward. And then he freaked out. That's really going to be what the significance of the hiding of the body is going to be. I think, yes. I got to break down what you just said. Hold on. You got me drinking out of the fire hydrant room.

I mean, he's too much too fast. So you're saying he only realized. what he did was wrong after he did it. Now, isn't it all so true? And guys, this is all rhetorical. Dan Rubin has tried hundreds of cases and won a lot of them. And you know his clients were probably guilty. But he won anyway.

Okay, put him back up, please. And yes, we know the brother, the stepbrother, is innocent until proven guilty. We know that. Rubin, isn't it true under the law? And I know you know the answer. that intent to commit a crime can be formed in the snap of a finger,

the twinkling of a moment, the blink of an eye, the time it takes me to raise the gun and pull the trigger, less time. I don't need a prolonged plan such as stalking you for weeks on in, following you around town, and then bam, killing you finally when you get out of your car. That is not necessary under the law. It can be just like that.

Isn't that true? That is true. That's unequivocal. that can be true. So you don't think at some point when he was ripping her clothes off and then strangling her, well Joe Scott tells you how long it takes to asphyxate someone, that's plenty of time

to form intent. And then only when she's dead, he goes, uh-oh, my bad, boo-boo, do over. No, uh-uh. That ain't going to work. I think the difference between what I'm saying premeditation is that he may have premeditated

the, you know, the sexual assaults or not, we don't know. But the fact is, let's say there's a struggle going on and he uses just too much force. He doesn't intend to kill her, but he intends to restrain her. That's not necessarily murder, or not necessarily murder in the first degree, a premeditated murder. So now you're saying, and I like this, plan B, if the first plan doesn't work, he didn't know what he was doing, he didn't intend to do it, fall back on plan B, that he intended to restrain her and she died. I heard you say that. Wouldn't that be felony murder under the law, which qualifies for life without parole? Not for him because he was a juvenile, but it's the same

sentence. It's still murder. If I intend to subdue you, Dan Rubin, by asphyxiating you until you're subdued or holding you by the arms resulting in bruises that Joe Scott Morgan described, that is an aggravated assault. And if a death occurs intentionally or not during that felony textbook case, felony murder, life. It's possible. But I think the fact is that his lawyers are going to be attacking the premeditation first and foremost. They'll also be attacking any sort of DNA evidence that links him allegedly to what had happened. The fact is that the premeditation issue is going to certainly be on trial.

No pun intended. And again, going back to our original discussion as to what significance the hiding of the body is going to be, yes, I do agree that that shows some sort of understanding or even remorse as to what happened. The hiding of the body can potentially show the remorse or it can show that there was some sort of regret as to what happened. But again, it's going to be at issue as to what was done when, by whom, and the evidence that shows it. Sydney Solvani, crime stories investigative reporter, where is he now? All this time he's been allowed to stay at home with his family who are covering for him. And that is still the case. Shockingly, this teenager is still staying with a relative, away.

from family members, he is not in lockup. He is not under detention. He is still staying with a family member. Yes. Hold on. Let me check my. Yeah, it's working. He's not in custody.

He's charged with murder one by the feds and sex assault. And walking free. And walking free. Joe Scott Morgan, have you ever heard anything like it? No, I haven't. And considering the level of violence, we're talking about first degree homicide here, Nancy. You know, I got to tell you, I got grandbabies. You know, if I lived in that area, I wouldn't want to take them out to eat.

I wouldn't want to go anywhere in public because I don't know who's got the chains on this guy. Who's in control with this individual? I mean, the feds, a federal grand jury has said that there is enough evidence here to move forward with some really heavy duty charges here. I have never heard of anything like this that you would go to disagree. You know why I went to you instead of Dr. Gerald and Utter? Because I was going to talk about, you know, why he would be at home or in a private residence as opposed to jail. But you, Joe Scott, you and I have gone over and over and over the autopsy report. Well, what we know of it.

What's really disturbing? Well, so many things are disturbing. I really don't know where to start. But this is part of a pattern. It didn't just happen that night from what I can deduce Joe Scott. You know about the bruises on her body. You know how she was restrained. You know how she was asphyxiated.

And now he's still not in custody. And I don't mean custody with adults. I mean in juvenile incarceration, which is where he would stay if convicted until he comes of age at 21. He would go into the adult system. She is dead. According to the feds, she was raped, aggravated sex assault, in a room door locked, and now she's dead, and he is in a private residence. We wait as justice unfolds, and may it roll down like a river.

If you have information, whether you think it is significant or not, Please dial 754703, 2000. And tonight we remember American Hero Deputy Sheriff Landon Faulkner, Hamilton County Sheriff's Tennessee, just 24, killed in the line of duty, leaving behind a wife turned widow, Megan, and four children. American Hero, Deputy Sheriff Landon Faulkner. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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