Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - CRUISE SHIP GIRL, ANNA KEPNER, DAD: I FOUND HER COLD, NAKED BODY

Episode Date: May 22, 2026

A federal grand jury issues a superseding indictment against Anna Kepner's stepbrother and alleged killer, Timothy Hudson, adding a charge of sexual assault alongside premeditated murder. Despite the brutal nature of the crime, Hudson remains free on pre-trial release under GPS monitoring at an uncle's home. Anna's father says his grief is taking a toll, emotions running high after accepting Anna's high school diploma on her behalf. Chris Kepner says he will not attend his stepson's trial unless he must, unable to think about the cruise cabin where he pulled his daughter's naked body from under a bunk bed. Nancy and an expert panel dissect shocking allegations of missed warning signs, including prior alerts from an ex-boyfriend about the Hudson's obsessive behavior and reports that Anna’s biological brother was locked out of the cabin after hearing screams. As the defense secures a trial delay from June to September, a critical bond hearing looms at the end of May. Joining Nancy Grace today: Greg Morse  - Criminal Defense Attorney of Morse Legal, author of “The Untested” found on Amazon; website: morselegal.com Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Author: "Deal Breaker,” Podcast: On The Couch, featured in hit show: "Paris in Love" on Peacock, www.drbethanymarshall.com , Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, Twitter: @DrBethanyLive  Dr. Priya Banerjee, M.D. - Board Certified Forensic Pathologist and Anatomic Pathologist, Anchor Forensic Pathology Consulting  Robert Crispin - Private Investigator “Crispin Special Investigations”, Former Federal Task Force Officer for the United States Department of Justice, DEA and Miami Field Division. Former Homicide Detective and Crimes against children investigator with Coconut Creek Police Dep. in Florida. Former SWAT officer. CrispinInvestigations.com, Facebook: Crispin Special Investigations Inc.   Michelle Spitzer - Florida News Reporter for USA Today Co., website: USAToday.com,  Dave Mack - Crime Stories investigative reporter See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human. The so-called cruise ship girl teen Anna Ketner's dad says, I found her cold naked body stuffed under a bunk. Her own dad pulls his daughter's dead body from under a bunk. now he vows, he will not sit through testimony. His mind, his heart, and his soul cannot go back to that room where his daughter was murdered. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime stories. I want to thank you for being with us. The last thing she saw about that far away from

her face is her own stepbrother as he strangled her dead. The little brother heard fighting, heard screaming. Whatever happened, it was very violent. And then the next morning, it's 9 o'clock. Everyone's eating buffet. And all of a sudden, where's Anna? Seriously? And yet the alleged killer is still walking free.

Straight out to Michelle Spitzer, joining us out of Melbourne, Florida. Florida News investigative reporter for USA Today. Michelle, thank you for being with us. Michelle, where is the alleged killer? This after her father says, I can't possibly take my mind back to that room again. Right now he is with a relative and uncle in another part of Florida, another county,

and there are attempts being made to get him in custody until the trial. Robert Crispin joining us now, private investigator at Crispin's Special Investigations, former Federal Task Force Officer, U.S. Department Justice, DEA, Miami Field Office. It goes on and on and on at Crispin's Investigations.com. But this is Florida, his jurisdiction, and he is joining us right there where that cruise ship took off but came back with Anna Kepner dead. Robert Crispin, you hear what the dad is saying. He refuses to go back into that courtroom, to go into the courtroom, and revisit that room again in his mind, his heart, his soul, where he found his daughter stuffed under a bed cold to the touch and naked.

Do you blame him? Listen, I, being a father, I don't want to ever have to deal with something like that. I don't blame him, but unfortunately, this is the federal government, and this is a homicide investigation, and by hook or crook, he's going to have to testify, and the government's going to have to put him on the stand. He's the one who found Anna dead. He's the first person back to her body to find her naked, wrapped in the blanket, and covered in life jackets, and finding her lifeless. cold, no pulse body. You don't get to not testify. I completely understand and I'm compassionate with him, but he is a major indicator of moving this case forward. Hey, Crispin, I believe that first a maid went in and saw her and then I'm sure screamed her head off and then the dad went in and

pulled her out. He touched the body. And that's kind of thing you never get over ever for the rest of your life. And we just heard Michelle Spitzer state from USA Today, Robert, that the alleged perp is walking free even now. Now, Robert, you've been there on location over and over and over, but this is what's happening right now. And I'm going to get Michelle Spitzer to back me up on this. the perp is living in a residential home. Can I see Crispin? I want to get his reaction to this. He's not in jail.

He's walking free. Now, this little girl, Anna Ketner, had been afraid of him for a really long time. And I'm going to play back to you what her then-boyfriend said about how this perp had crawled on top of her before. And she was afraid. And she voiced that concern. and the boyfriend and his dad told the parents, but there's more.

This is a pattern because tonight, Crispin, we are learning that the little brother, the one that was banned from the room so Anna could be raped and killed, that little brother, we are now learning Crispin that there are reports the little brother went to the mom, the stepmom and the dad, and told them something's happening, something's wrong, and nobody did anything, Crispin. Nothing. They could have saved her life if this account is true, Crispin. So if it's true, Nancy, and there is some banter that that happened, and there is a superseding indictment that is potentially coming down the road, there were multiple indicators that we've learned through this story, Nancy, that this perpetrator, the killer, had a problem. And a lot of people knew that. You ever hear the term, see something, say something?

That goes right down the line of what happened here. Anna's brother heard a heated argument between them in their cabin the night before Anna was found dead. He heard the stepbrother yelling at Anna, the sounds of furniture overturning and screams from inside their room. He heard him yelling at her, like in a harmful way of like shut the hell up and stuff like that. Like something was like banging around and stuff and like the chairs were getting thrown around in the room. from our friends at Inside Edition, straight back out to Michelle Spitzer, joining us, Florida investigative reporter with USA Today. Michelle, I find it very difficult to believe that the little boy, age 13 or 14, did not

go tell the mom or dad, something's going on in there. Yeah, there has been nothing in court documents regarding the other sibling that was in the room and what he may have seen, what he may have heard. We do know he was not in the room when the alleged incident took place, but we don't know where he was, again, what he heard or saw. We also are learning from the uncle who went online to Dave Matt, Crime Stories, Investigator, reporter. I want to read it correctly.

This is from Martin Donahue. He states that the little brother told his step, mom when no one could find Anna on the ship. So yes, they knew who did this. It sickens me. The father, Chris, remains silent. So I guess this means, I'm extrapolating from these words, that it was the little brother again that raised the alarm, Dave Mack, the following morning that nobody could find Anna. So you have the boyfriend and his father telling the family, the perp keeps trying to attack Anna. She's afraid. Nothing was done. Then you have the little boy reportedly, reportedly telling the mom and the dad, there on the cruise, something's going on

there. Nothing was done. You have the little brother again the next morning saying, I can't find Anna, but no one did anything. Dave Mack, do I have that correct? Nancy, that is what Martin Donahue wrote. for all the world to see. You're dead on accurate. What he is saying is that Anna Kepner, that this younger brother, this 14-year-old, was locked out of the room and that he told the parents something's going on. I hear an argument. I hear stuff being thrown around.

Nothing was done about it. And that's a shocking thing. If true, it's beyond what most of us can imagine. But getting right to the heart of this, Martin Don. Monichue posted this early on, Nancy, and he's asking people to please follow along and be involved in this case. How many warnings did it take for the parents to finally hear? Or did they ever hear what was happening to Anna Ketner?

Now, this little girl has been sex assaulted and murdered. Her cold naked body stuffed under a bed on a cruise ship. and her dad, her bio-dad, having to pull the body out, the nightmare sticks with him every day, every night. He vows, he will not go back in the courtroom and relive what happened. He says, I don't want to return to that room, even in his mind. Here's one of the warnings this family had. She just didn't feel safe around him. She's scared to tell anybody because she was scared that he would do something to her.

Joshua 2 says Anna's close relationship with her stepbrother was one-sided. The 16-year-old is obsessed with Anna and made her uncomfortable with romantic advances. He once even caught him trying to climb into Anna's bed while the two were on FaceTime, Anna already asleep. He says, Dad, I tried to tell the parents that this was happening and they didn't want to believe me. He's like infatuated, attracted to her like crazy. He's always wanted to date. Chris doesn't realize it's his fault. This whole thing is his fault.

If he would have taken the warnings that Anna's ex-boyfriend gave him, then she would still be here. So keep that in mind, Christopher. I blame you. That from our friends, An Inside Edition, and Just Mom, 1984 on. TikTok. Let's hear what the boyfriend has to say in full.

I was on FaceTime with her and she was laying down and the brother tried to go on top of her. You saw that. Yeah. How did she react to it? I was like, what the hell are you doing in the room? You know? Then he got scared

and ran away and I heard his footsteps like running through the house because he got caught. That was my first love. She was the death had ever happened to me. And I'd even walked through her to see her, you know, for like five, ten minutes. She complained about him being uncomfortable, or her being uncomfortable around him, because of the fact that he tried to go on top of her in the bed. And because of that, she tried to go and stay the night at her friend's house and to dodge the staying the night at her

So upset she would try to go and stay at her friend's house overnight to get away from the stepbrother that ultimately, according to federal prosecutors killed her. That is from the Space Coast Rocket Instagram to Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us, renowned psychoanalyst out of the L.A. jurisdiction. You can see her now starring on Bravo and Peacock. She's the author of Deal Breakers. And you can find her at Dr. Bethany Marshall.com. Did you hear that? And Nancy, this is so disgusting. This is the classic pattern of sexual abuse of a child.

If the boyfriend was on FaceTime and TH climbed on top of Anna while she was asleep, how many times had this happened in the past and her dad refused to believe her? Let's be clear, TH is not her brother. The parents had not been married that long. He's some add-on and intrusion into her life that she's. did not want. And Nancy, I do not believe for one second that Bio Dad is avoiding the court case because he's afraid of being retramatized. If he goes to court, he's going to have to hear all the details of the case and he's going to have information presented to him that he was not listening

to her pleas. And he does not want to hear that. Nancy, in all the cases we've covered, the mother and the father always want to go to court, always because they want to vindicate the slain child. So in this case, I think the father, it's one last act of lack of protection towards his daughter that he's not going to court. It's tragic. So now there are claims of a quote, cover up, a cover up. You know, Robert Crispin, you were saying earlier that while the dad doesn't want to testify, doesn't want to relive what happened, he's going to have to. And you're right.

He will be called as a witness, and he will have to get up there and testify, and he will be cross-examined. But think about the strategy here, Crispin. I don't believe the defense is going to cross-examine him on why nothing was ever done to Anna because their client was the danger. How can they ask that question?

Hey, how come you never protected your daughter from my client sitting over there? I don't think they'd touch that with a 10-foot pole. No, but the government will. And him testifying, I feel, if he doesn't want to testify, and how many times have we seen this, Nancy, in homicide cases we've worked, he doesn't want to testify because if he is culpable of any part of this where he should have intervened at any part of when it's all started from the time he jumped in on top of where when they are on FaceTime to the crews, to the information that they knew, he might walk himself right into an indictment.

Dr. Bethany, it breaks my heart to think that this little girl, a teen girl, just scrubbed in sunshine, never did anything wrong in her whole life. we try to go spend the night at other people's her friend's houses to get away from the stepbrother. Reminds me of another abuse case of my Nancy. A 12-year-old comes to treatment and her older brother is stalking her. It's a biological older brother. And because of that, this little girl's falling into a depression. She has to lock the bathroom door because he will break into the bathroom when she's trying to toilet or take a shower. He peers into her room at night. He has flashlights. siblings can stalk another sibling. It is not that uncommon if we think of the psychodynamics of this family, but the fact is you never, ever put a teenage boy in a room with a teenage girl. You just don't, even if they are biological siblings, which they are not. So what I think the thing about Anna, we have to keep in mind, she was, this is just what we see in this. case, but there was most likely a history of him stalking her within that home and climbing on top

of her while she's sleeping. You can't tell me that she was safe in that bedroom or that this was the first time she had been violated by him. Joining us now out of this jurisdiction, veteran trial lawyer Greg Morris. He is a renowned criminal defense attorney. He founded Morse legal and he is the author of, untested on Amazon. Greg Morse, I know you've got plenty to say. But here are just a few of the legal issues. And Michelle Spitzer joining us USA Today. Jump in if I get any of this wrong or if you want to add in.

Don't wait for me to call on you like a school teacher. Please, Michelle. I need help with Greg Morris because there's no telling what defense is going to throw out, spin it out. Greg, number one, why is a lot? This defendant walking free. Because if anything we've said tonight, if anything we have learned, is correct. And let me remind everybody,

the parents have not been charged with anything, not neglect, not child abuse, nothing. This is based on statements made by others. Okay, they haven't been charged with anything. If these statements are true, that means there was a pattern, Greg Morris, a pattern, of the stepbrother attacking Anna and nobody doing anything about it.

So, as Robert Crispin just told us, you see a pattern emerging. If it's true, can the parents be charged? What would the charges be? And if this pattern is true, why is he out free? If he has a history of sex attacks and stalking young girls, you don't think they're young girls in his neighborhood? There has to be right now. Well, first of all, why he's out is because under the Juvenile Detention Act, it's to offer the least restrictive means.

The government sought only dangerousness, not a risk of flight. Those are the two reasons that the court considers. So, you know, he's on the monitor. He's with an uncle. So that's restrictive enough. He can be monitored if he leaves the house. So that's enough. Switching it over because he's charged as an adult.

and now having this pretrial release decided under the Bail Reform Act, because he's charged as an adult, really is, it's more procedural than substantive. There's no reason to revisit this other than the procedure changed. He should stay in the same position that he's at. The court's not going to learn anything new probably at the new bond hearing that I believe is coming up on the end of May, May 27th. So as far as the release, you can't just work backwards from a horrible

horrible crime and say he has to be locked up. This was a horrible thing. Every single person is presumed innocent until the state proves every single element beyond into the exclusion of all reasonable doubt or the person, please. So that's why he was released. These are restrictive means. He's monitored 24-7. If he goes outside that house, that monitor goes off, GPS signal, police are notified right away. So with regard to that, and the court should probably keep him in the same situation now because nothing's changed. As far as the family, you're right. I mean, you know, you hear maybe they were arguing or there were problems and maybe the family wanted,

hey, make this work, this new blended family, work it out, guys, you know, that type of stuff. It's a long way to impute knowledge of a murder and rape to a family. And Anna was 18 years old. So she was an adult. So you don't have some type of child neglect or something to that effect here because she's an adult when this happened. You know, the only thing maybe they could go with some type of obstruction if they said something to law enforcement and made statements. But you could say, but it's the reality of it, Nancy. You want to convict everybody because they're arrested.

We know how easy it is to arrest people. She's an adult. Show Anna Kepner again, please. She's wearing braces. She's still in high school. Sure, sure. Okay, but she's 18. 18 is not an adult.

adult, Crispin, can you drink at 18 in Florida? Florida's 21 years old. Oh, okay. So she's not even able to have, what do they have now, the white claw kind of a kind of alcohol, but not really? She can't even have hard cider. And Greg Morris is telling me that she is an adult. Hold on. Keep it on Crispin.

Crispin, number one, I got Morse on. tape because he says the same thing every time. And when he runs out of defenses, he says presumed innocent. He always throws that in at the end in case we forgot. But everything that he said is not answering the question. The question is if what we're being told is true, there is a pattern of stalking and sex attack attempts. If that's true, he has a history. Why is he free in a neighborhood where there are young girls living around him. Well, I have a huge problem with him being out on bond, even with his GPS monitor. Because, Nancy, as you get closer to trial and you meet with your defense team,

you start to realize that your demise is very, very close and how strong the evidence is against you. And you start to become a caged animal. And you realize, I'm out. I only have a short amount of time to either kill myself, That won't break our heart, however, or kill someone else and escape. I have a huge problem with him being out. I get that he's a youthful offender. I get it, but there are a lot of violent, youthful offenders,

which is why he's being charged as an adult. If he, trust me, the government knows about all this past with him, and you're going to see that that's going to come up at this next hearing. I'm going to be shocked if this judge, doesn't pull that GPS and put him into custody. I mean, for Pete's sake, Crispin, it's a murder. This is not some little girl down at Walgreens stealing some eye makeup. This is a murder and, according to a superseding indictment, a rape.

According to the state, he raped her and murdered her. Hold on. Dr. Priya Bannergy, you're joining me. You know her well. She's a board certified forensic pathologist. she's an anatomic pathologist. She's with anchor forensic pathology consulting. Dr. Priya, how does the state know this girl, this teen girl was sex assaulted? How do we know that?

And describe the injuries to Anna Kepner. For both girl moms, this is hard. But autopsy, we do sexual assault kits just like analogous to if she was living. We collect, we examine the pubic area, the genital area, look for any injuries and take lots of swabs for DNA testing and microscopic exam. So looking under the microscope. So if this is a forcible rape, oftentimes we see bruising and tearing in the genital area. And that's really what is, it's awful to see. There can be a lot of damage outside and inside.

and there are special autopsy techniques that are very invasive, but allow us to really get a look at what the damage is. So it's a very complicated exam. Greg Morris, very quickly, explain what is a superseding indictment? So a superseding indictment is another indictment after the initial or preceding ones that, simply sometimes add charges, adds elements to it, but it's to add information to the preceding indictments that have already been issued. So it doesn't really, unless it's something incredibly significant, it doesn't change the timeline very much depending on what it is. But it's a new indictment in the same case with new information. You know, we saw that over and over in the

Sean Combs case. They just kept getting more and more victims and more and more evidence and there'd be a superseding and a superseding to the superseding and so on. and so on. That's an example. Oh, there he is. Did you have to show him to me again? I guess you did. Hey, Dave Mack joining us, Crime Stories,

investigative reporter. One thing of the many things that Morse said, and he's right, is this is a newly blended family. It's a very newly blended family. In fact, the stepmom and the bio-dad are basically still honeymooners. they were only married 11 months Nancy when this cruise took place and during that time period of that 11 month marriage there were all of these warning signs that you've been talking about between Anna Kepner and her stepbrother so the shocking fact that they knowing all of this put them in the same room on a cruise and that the 14 year old was locked out of that room it just goes to a total dread of what Anna Kepner was going through on a day-by-day basis with this step months, brother. You know, it's amazing to me the way this is playing out. He is still out free. She's dead.

Isn't it true, Michelle Spitzer, that her high school graduation, I hope you're listening, Greg Moore, claiming she's an adult. Her high school graduation just happened. And the dad, the bio-dad, had to accept her diploma. What happened? That's right, Nancy. Her high school graduation was just held this past weekend and her dad did go up and accept her diploma on her behalf. It was a very emotional moment. He wore butterflies on a shirt in honor of his daughter. It's a very small private school. There's only about 20 kids in the graduating class. The valedictorian spoke about Anna, spoke about what she meant to the class, how much she is missed. There was no mention about the suspect there, and it was all focused on Anna and how much she is missed. Michelle Spitzer, isn't it true that the siblings, oh, this is from our friends at Good Morning America, isn't it true that these siblings set up her little senior table with all of her pictures and memorabilia? That is what I was told that family members did set up this table to reminisce about Anna.

and remember her in the good times. Her family has said they want her to be remembered by the way she lived, not the way she died. She was a cheerleader known for being very bubbly, very happy all the time. And so there were a lot of good memories, and she was thought about a lot this weekend. Back to you, Crispin. I know you can't see a monitor where you're joining us there on the scene.

but we were just showing her senior table. My twins are about to graduate, and I've been doing senior table after senior table after senior table. Can you imagine putting together a senior table and your daughter has been sex assaulted and murdered and the dad has to pull her cold body out from stuffed up under a bed and you're making a senior table? I mean, all you've got left of her is an urn.

A senior table. I mean, listen, I could see that in the monitor, and that's heartbreaking. That is beyond heartbreaking. This entire situation is heartbreaking. But accountability starts for everybody involved when the first arrest was made, and the United States government is going to take

this all the way to the end. If there's nobody else responsible and they deem nobody else is responsible, then it's over with the arrest of him. But yes, that table is heartbreaking. It's just, I don't even know how to put words to it. I don't even know what I would do. I don't either. Looking at that and you know what, I got to make another senior table tomorrow night. I mean, and when I'm making those pictures of my little girl to put up on that poster, I'm being thinking about Anna Kepner and her family making all those posters we just saw and how they must have just been sick doing it. But, you know, think about it. Looking at that poster board and that senior table and the dad getting a standing ovation when he goes to accept her diploma. Crispin, remember

when her body was found, they came back to port and suddenly the stepson was too upset to speak anymore once the law enforcement got a hold of him. But guess who else didn't speak? The bio dad and the stepmom. And according to these posts, the little brother had told them what had happened. And they said nothing. Listen, Nancy, that is not a coincidence. You as a prosecutor or me as a former homicide detective, that is not a coincidence. This time frame from the time that they found the body until that ship got back to port here behind me, and the feds were able to get on there and start their investigation. They had a lot of time to get together and talk. And family protects family, regardless. Well, when you say family protects family to Dr. Bethany Marshall,

nobody was protecting Anna. Nobody was protecting Anna. Nobody was protecting Anna. And I do hope Biodad does go to court. In terms of this, you know, I forget what you call them, all the information being added on like we had with P. Diddy, a lot more is going to come out. She had girlfriends, Anna, whose houses she spent the night at so she would avoid T.H. Let's not call him her brother because he was not her brother. She hadn't known him that long. And all those girls are going to want to talk.

They're going to talk to their mothers and fathers. The mothers and fathers are going to talk to police. There's a lot more information coming out, Nancy. It's going to get ugly. I'm really sorry to say, but that's what's going to happen. And speaking of upcoming, back to Michelle Spitzer joining us, investigative reporter there in this jurisdiction in Florida for USA Today. Michelle, we've got upcoming court dates.

The first thing, I believe, is going to be a court date where they're going to talk about bond. In case there's any threat that he might go into Juvie jail, they want to bond. I think that's going to happen. The trial date has been moved. Tell me what's happening. I do want to point out that a lot of the information that has come out, aside from hearsay from random people, is court documents related to a custody case involving Anna's stepmother and her former husband. They're still in a custody dispute.

And that is where we are getting a lot of our information, including a text message exchange between Anna's stepmother and her form. former husband, the suspect's biological father, where they discussed very vaguely what was going on. They were careful not to say too much. And if it was not for this custody dispute going on in court, we would know even less. So we've got the upcoming court date, Michelle Spitzer, and I think they're going to ask for bond there. When is that? And when is the trial set?

The upcoming court deed regarding bond is at the end of the month, end of May. The trial was delayed. It wasn't originally scheduled for June, and it has been delayed until September. Dave Mack, joining us, Crime Stories Investigated Reporter, Delay, Delay, Delay, a defense attorney's best friend. Hold on, Dave. Greg Morris, we know that's true, but why is that true that defense attorneys always want a delay? Well, well, for two reasons.

It's not here. The Southern District of Florida, which I've practiced in for 26 years, is very fast. This case will not linger for years and years and years. Some of my homicide cases in the state system, they go on for three years, four years before they ever get to trial. That will not happen here in the Southern District of Florida. It is very fast. And also, you have to remember, for the defense lawyer, we're reactionary. You know, the prosecution, especially at the federal level, they can try the case the day they bring the indictment for the most part. They don't need to. We have to get information, test the evidence, and do all those things in a reactionary sense. So that's the reason why, but you don't get a lot of delays in the Southern District of Florida,

which is the federal district that Miami is in. So it's not going to last long. But it's because we're reactionary with regard to the information and evidence. And that's why a lot of delay happens. And the system has too many cases. So there's that aspect as well. But again, I'm in a very fast jurisdiction, and that's where this case is. So I'd be surprised if it went into next year, barring something unusual. And I believe the delay happened because they filed a superseding indictment and added a significant charge, which was the sex assault charge to this. I think that that delay is legitimate. I think the request for a delay by the defense in this case is legitimate, because when you have other felony charges at, I mean, they should have known it was

coming. The client should have told them everything that happened. But that said, when a new charge is added, the defense has to get ready. You heard more say the defense is reactionary. They react to what the state's evidence is. Why? Because they can't just take the stand until the truth. Because that could very well be a confession. Can't do that. So they have to react to what the state says, here's our evidence. And the defense has to figure out how they're going to counter that evidence. We learned a lot, Dave Mack. in the state's filings about what the state says went down. Everyone in this case, including the defendant, including the parents, are innocent in the eyes of the law

unless and until the state pierces the presumption of innocence with facts and evidence to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Dave Mack, what jumps out at you from the state's filings. I learned a lot. Well, the one thing that that really comes to mind, okay, Nancy, is that some of the evidence that's been collected in this case so far, a written statement by the defendant that the DNA found at the crime scene, and data that was extracted from cellular telephone of a person identified SCK. There's reports from both federal and local law enforcement agencies included in all

this, but I'm curious as to what that data is going to show. What is that as well as the written statement by the defendant? We know what the indictment states that the murder occurred at the same time as sexual abuse occurred on November 6th. The timing has been placed of the sexual assault and murder has been placed between 7.30 p.m. and 9.30 a.m. the following morning. which is an awfully long period of time, you know, 14 hours. I guess the biggest thing of all of this, Nancy, is that the grand jury said that T.H.

Knowingly and unlawfully perpetrated the willful, deliberate, malicious, and premeditated killing of Ketner. The premeditated killing, meaning, did he plan this? did he lure her in there specifically to kill her? That's what jumps at me. Well, again, you know, Dave, premeditation under the law can be formed in an instant. The twinkling of a moment, the blink of an eye, the time it takes to raise a gun and pull the trigger under the law is time to form premeditation. It's also felony murder if a felony occurred at the time of the death, which is a felony sex act. So, with that, you don't even have to prove intent.

We wait as justice unfolds, but please know the state is building its case, as is the defense. If you know anything about this case, please dial 754703-2000. 754-703-2000. We remember an American hero trooper Donald Brackett, Pennsylvania State Police, passed away in the line of duty after 17 years on the force, leaving behind his wife, now widow, Marta, and daughters, Gabriella, and Brianna. American hero, trooper Donald Brackett. Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us tonight.

Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight, but I'll see you tomorrow night, and until then, good night, friend. This is an I-Heart podcast, guaranteed human.