Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Cult arrests, Slender Man guilty plea & submarine murder mystery

Episode Date: August 25, 2017

Members of a paramilitary "Christian" sect are jailed on child abuse and sex charges in New Mexico. Reporter Patty Lane and psychologist Caryn Stark discuss revelations in the case with Nancy Grace.��A 15-year-old girl entered a guilty plea to trying to stab a 12-year-old girl to death to please the fictional "Slender Man" character. Stark and reporter Drew Nelson talk to Nancy about the bizarre case. Lawyer Brian Claypool, forensic psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober and reporter Cheryl White join Nancy to look at the story of a female journalist whose body was allegedly dumped from a submarine while on a short cruise with a Danish inventor. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. There are now eight members of a religious paramilitary sect under arrest in Cibola County, the center of multiple child abuse investigations. According to court documents, former members of the group say they were taught to take the children into hiding if police ever showed up at the commune. During that raid, law enforcement found 11 children, many without birth certificates. One of the group's leaders, Deborah Green, and her son-in-law, Peter Green,

were arrested for the sexual assault of the same 5-year-old girl. Stacey Miller's accused of not taking her 12-year-old son to the doctor. He eventually died of the flu. And the children are being questioned right now by an FBI investigator. A military-style Christian sect leader, let me rephrase that, a military-style so-called Christian sect leader is charged in a massive child sex abuse case. Former members say they have been trying to expose it for years, but nobody would listen. And it's happening right in our backyard in our country a military style so-called

christian sect massive child abuse massive child sex abuse where people have been trying to report it for years and no one would do anything well we're to do something right now. This is Crime Stories. I'm Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us. When I read about an incident like this, I think maybe of Jim Jones on some faraway island that I know very little about where people assume a bunch of kooks decide to kill themselves under duress from some cult leader. Yeah, it's easy to think about it that way. Easier to think about it because it's not you. It's not your sister. It's not your daughter. It's easier to think about it like that because it seems far away and distant and completely disconnected to anything about you and your family. Well, this happened right here in the U.S.

I'm looking at the alleged perp, Peter Green, of the, quote, aggressive Christianity missions training corps. Okay, right there. Everything, I mean, I'm certainly no Bible scholar, and I plead guilty to ignorance in a lot of biblical matters, but I thought Christ's whole message was about including people. I mean, the last I looked in the New Testament, Christ would fraternize with hookers, with thieves,

with dreaded, hated tax collectors, even people that tormented Christians. He included them. He showed them love. I don't recall anything about aggressive in the whole New Testament. Aggressive behavior. That's their title.

Peter Green of the Aggressive Christianity Missions Training Corps. I mean, right there, I smell a rat. But let's get down, instead of my wanderings, about the facts as we know them. A leader of a U.S. military-style Christian sect is facing hundreds of child sex abuse charges in a case police say is connected to widespread child abuse and child sex abuse by this religious community. Where was it? With me is Patty Lane, investigative

reporter and renowned psychologist out of New York, Karen Stark. Karen, thank you also for being with us. Where did it happen, Patty? It happened in Fence Lake, New Mexico. It's a really rural area, a lot of ranches. According to the Census Bureau, there were only 42 people living there. But, you know, we don't know if people on this compound even, you know, counted themselves in the census report. The very latest in just the last couple of hours is that this sect has been, has not only been abusing and sexually abusing children, they are now accused of hiding children from the police, hiding people. So we think there are 42 people there. There could be 100 people there, 40 of them children, for all I know. And

when you're trying to hide children from the police, let me tell you, nothing good is coming out of hiding children from the police. I'm just so shocked that this is going on in somebody's backyard here in the U.S. Okay, go ahead. What do we know? That's a really good question. You know, people that were part of this so-called sect or cult, if you want to call them what they are,

have been saying for years that things have been going on in this group. I don't know if it just took authorities this long to get to it, but 100 counts of child sex abuse against one of its members, how does it go on that long? The child sex abuse involves the rape of a girl that they believe was smuggled into this country from Uganda.

So there leaves the question of if they're hiding children, are some of them also children that were smuggled in? If they're not recording births, which is what was claimed against some of these defendants. You know, are they are they hiding children for their own for their own good? It's a very scary, very scary situation. Well, did you just say, are they hiding children for the children's own good? For their own. But why wouldn't you want that for their own?

Yeah, I guess so nothing's not the children i.e so they won't be witnesses to all of this a massive charge has come down against these leaders of this crazy sect peter green along with sect members deborah green joshua green they sound related stacy miller also faced charges ranging from child abuse briberybery, not reporting a birth. All along, a former member, Mara Elena Schmeier, has said that she has been trying to draw attention to this sect for years, that she has been interviewed by investigators, but nothing has been done. What do we know, Patty Lane, investigative reporter, about the charges against Peter Green?

Well, Peter Green is actually the son-in-law of Deborah Green. And Deborah is one of the co-founders and what they call generals of this group. So we know that. OK, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Right there. Right there, right there. A general within a Christian group.

I don't recall anything about the 12 disciples who owned absolutely nothing except their sandals being some military opposition group that involved generals. What do you mean by generals? Why were they called generals? What's that? They fashioned themselves after, for instance, the Salvation Army. Deborah Greene is a co-general. She basically has members believing that she gets her messages directly from God. She's been seen in videos with aggressive tone. I've seen this video. She's actually almost

yelling at her members, telling them that they are waging a war on evil for God and that this is God's war. Karen Stark, you, like me, are certainly not a biblical scholar. I believe, in fact, you're Jewish, correct? Correct. So a general and that tone and that anger that we just heard, that that's not right. Well, Nancy, that's what the kind of thing that you hear when people are under somebody's spell. This is more like brainwashing, where the person is able to finally convince the people that follow them, how strong they are, how good they are,

and people no longer can think for themselves. And so the more they are that outgoing and sure of themselves and acting like they're meant that they get messages from God, the more their followers believe that to be true. You know, here's the thing. I think of Manson. Here's the thing. But at least Manson didn't hide behind Christ. No.

Okay. You can't lay that on Manson. It's evil as he was. The similarity is there because, you know, there's nothing that the authorities can do. The groups move from place to place and the people follow and really stick to a person who is not a great leader, is not a real Jesus. Patty Lane, joining me, investigative reporter. These people, she's right, Karen Stark is right about the Manson family

moving from place to place and being somewhat elusive, but this group has an encampment. They have a commune of sorts with structures built out in the middle of nowhere. So they were there for police to locate. And another

thing that's bothering me, Patty Lane, if you want to go off and, you know, throw your lot in with somebody like the Greens and this wacky cult, that's your business. But when you drag children into it that don't have any other choice, that is a whole nother can of worms and i frankly believe that not only should the i guess generals within this cult be charged if these allegations are true but the children's parents who let this happen who willingly let their children be abused and sex abused what more do we know about the nature of the claims against these cult leaders? Well, Stacey Miller, one of those that was arrested, is actually the mother of a 12-year-old boy who died at the compound. Apparently, he had an illness from a blow on the forehead. He lost

the ability to move his right side and speak. And the Greens do not believe in modern medicine. They believe that God can heal everything. The boy went on to develop a severe flu and then he died. So Stacey Miller, the mother, is being charged in this on child neglect charges. I believe that God can heal everything too. That's why he gave us doctors and hospitals. Okay, there you go. The thought of what these children have endured. The leader and three members of a so-called religious group based in Cibola County have been arrested for what investigators describe as horrific crimes against children. The county sheriff's office says that deputies arrest Deborah Green, Peter Green, Joshua Green, and Stacey Miller. Now, they are claiming that these are just recirculated old stories that have already been proven false. But Sheriff Tony Mace is saying his office first started investigating the group last year when two members claimed they had just escaped.

The warrant says that Green controlled all the money and rarely wanted to pay for hospital or doctor visits, preaching that people that are sick must repent and be healed. Also, that Deborah Green sex assaulted her daughter's five-year-old girl, who could have been smuggled in from Uganda as a baby. But there are hundreds of counts. Witnesses say that children were treated like slaves and routinely whipped. That she, at least this one girl, was raped until she was nine years old. There are 100 counts of criminal sex penetration of a minor. Can you even imagine what these children lived with? And if, in fact, this was a commune, their parents were there going along with it.

Patty Lane, investigative reporter, it's almost more than I can take in. If the parents were there, I think they should be charged too for letting this happen to their children. Absolutely. And not only were they there, they were actually participating from what former members have said. They were forced to punish their children physically. You know, they were forced to beat them for every little thing to get their children under control and to make them, quote, better warriors, to break the family bond. This is how the Greens would work with these families. So understanding that these parents are probably under some kind of mind control to begin with, that's not an excuse. But what I'm saying is they are in this atmosphere.

I believe I would snap out of it with somebody beating my child. Beat your child. And that's why one of them left because she couldn't do this to her child anymore. But it had to get to a point where she had been beating her child up to a point. So yeah, these parents were complicit in what was going on. Another issue I found out Karen Stark is that reportedly, children were told that they could not speak to police and parents were blocked from keeping records about their children so they could be hidden from police. You know, when you start hiding records about your child's existence

and you don't want police to know your children are even there, I don't understand how the parents could go along with that, Karen Stark. Well, the parents have lost the ability to think for themselves, Nancy. The brain can be very sensitive that way if you wind up with somebody who is that mesmerizing. And what's fascinating to me, and I don't really understand it, is that this cult was sued before by Schmeier, Maura Schmeier. She was awarded money because of what happened with her children, and yet the group went on. They moved, and they were able to keep going, sustaining the life that they were imposing on the members. This is what else I know. According to reports, adult members of the sect were forced to bury photos of their children

after the Greens were first interviewed by deputies. Also, they were taught to hide from police if they saw them. Also, they were forced to search dumpsters for discarded produce to bake bread and then sell the trash bread to unsuspecting buyers in Texas, Colorado, and Oklahoma. That's what we know now. A raid went down in the secluded western New Mexico compound. Right now, child abuse and child sex abuse charges, brutal attacks during church services occurred. They had to use tactical gear, assault weapons, a flash bomb in order to drive these sect leaders out and save the children. That's what we know right now. Two little girls plot and scheme. They invite their little best friend over for

a spend the night party. The three of them seemingly having fun at a sleepover. And then at some point, they lure the third little girl out into the woods where they proceed to give it their best efforts to stab her dead. Yes, two little girls that have never been in a drop of trouble in their whole lives stab a little girl multiple times and leaving her to, quote, bleed out in the woods. Why? Why? These little girls at the time, about the age of my girl, Lucy, is about to turn 10. It's hard for me to even take in. Now we know that their whole motivation

was because they had become entranced and enthralled with Slender Man. Slender Man, if you look at him online, is a freaky looking dude that has taken over the minds of a lot of tweens between the ages of 9 and 15 and convinced them that he's real. The only way to go live with Slender Man in his mansion is to commit a murder.

Yes, a murder. I will never forget when I was reading about this story and I pulled up a picture of Slender Man and the twins walked behind me and looked at my iPad and went, that's Slender Man. I nearly fell over. I said, what do you know about Slender Man? Oh, we just know that's him. Well, oh. So it's real. Joining me is crack reporter Drew Nelson. Drew, thank you for being with us. Let's start at the beginning. The girls are 12 years old when this occurs. What happened exactly? The young ladies, they were all 12. Anissa and Morgan invited Peyton out into the woods. They were going to go play hide and seek.

One of the girls brought a kitchen knife, stabbed between the two of them, stabbed Peyton 19 times. And two of those wounds could have killed her, Nancy. The little girl, who's just absolutely precious, Peyton Lautner, doctors say in the emergency room, she was about

an eighth of an inch from losing her life because one of the stabs pierced her body about an eighth of an inch from an artery, if even that much. That's how close she came to dying out in the woods that night alone. Can you imagine 19 stab wounds all in an effort to appease some freaky Slenderman sci-fi character? What do we know about Slender Man? With me, psychologist Karen Stark. Who is Slender Man?

Slender Man is a mythical character, Nancy. And I think somebody once drew a Slender Man as a comic book character, but it took off. There was something about the idea of him. He was very tall and he had children under his arms sometimes. And children are often fascinated by this kind of a character. Spooky and scary.

Oh, Karen, wait. I've got to tell you something. You're right about that. Children love ghost stories, scary stories. Mine got obsessed with, oh, what was it? Goosebumps. They saw the movie Goosebumps with Jack Black, who I love ever since Nacho Libre. I mean, really, what else could be said other than that? But he was the Goosebump writer who created the Goosebumps series in the movie.

And then they started watching the Goosebumps like little mini vignettes. And they're scary. If I never see Slappy the mannequin again in my life, I'll be happy. Okay, he's a freaky possessed mannequin. And the twins love to watch it. Finally, I had to cut them off. Okay, they're like little drunks with Goosebumps. Okay, I had to stop the madness.

But children, for some reason, like to scare themselves right like we all go to movies that are suspense movies or you read a crime book or a mystery book yeah I like happy things I guess because I've seen so much that really is scary but I guess children go on like you're saying that Slenderman is a fictional character who took over the Internet as far back as 2009. He is always depicted as an unnaturally tall, thin figure with a blank face. You never see his face. And he's always wearing a black suit. He's said to have tentacle-like arms, which can be extended to capture a prey. And Slenderman allegedly stalks and kidnaps children.

It's also said that if you want to go live with him in his mansion, you have to commit a murder. These two little girls wanted to go live in Slenderman's mansion. That's their story, Karen Stark. And they believe the story. And what I want to tell you about children and enjoying the way that yours did, Nancy, that kind of horror, is that it's a way to get that excitement and know, on the other hand, that you don't really have to commit the murder. It's vicarious. That's part of why children enjoy it so much. They're safe. Well, let me correct something.

Nobody gets killed in Goosebumps, except maybe an alien or a creepy character. But little children don't get killed in Goosebumps. I think it was rated G or PG. Even in Fairy Tales. Yeah. Fairy Tales are creepy, too. But I have read them. And they do get killed.

But it doesn't... I guess you're referring to Hansel and Gretel. Hansel and Gretel and the witch. They killed the witch. Yeah. And I don't want to get the witch population angry. But she deserved it. Okay.

She deserved the death penalty. But that's a whole other can of worms. Back to Slender Man and how these two could really justify stabbing their little friend next to her artery and leaving her to, quote, bleed out to please Slender Man. And that part is the part that's very disturbing because usually children understand that this is a story. That's part of the enjoyment is that it's not going to happen to them. They're safe.

But these girls at 12 actually say that they believed this story to be true. And they killed the other. They tried to kill their friends in order to be with him. And that's the part that doesn't ring. And it was very well thought out, very well thought out to Drew Nelson. They had been planning this for days. So a plea goes down. One of them plays guilty. What are they? What did she plead to? And what is her sentence? for pleading to second degree attempted homicide. Initially, she was charged with

first degree attempted homicide. And we're talking about Anissa here. Anissa took the plea. Morgan still faces charges, the same charge. She could be sent away for 45 years if she is convicted of a first degree attempted homicide. Now, there's the possibility that that Anissa still has to go to trial. And if they find out if they decide that she is mentally ill, she will end up going to a facility, a mental illness facility, a mental facility. Did you see the picture, the photo of Anissa, the stabber in court holding a teddy bear? You've got to look at that. Another issue here is that, you know, I mentioned earlier the knife was an eighth of an inch from the artery.

I was wrong. The knife passed less than a millimeter from the artery. That's the width of a human hair, according to the doctor. That's how close her bleeding death was. She managed to crawl, crawl, a 12-year-old little girl crawling and bleeding out of the woods to save her own life. So one has pled guilty and is awaiting sentencing. The other, as it looks right now, seems to be going forward with a mental defense claiming Slender Man told her to murder her friend. Will it work, Karen Stark? I don't believe it will work.

I'll be so surprised, Nancy, because I could understand that if they were younger. But at 12, she has some sense of the idea that that's a fictional character. And I have trouble believing that she thought he really said that that's what he wants. I mean, if... Well, a problem they're going to have with claiming a mental defect, Karen Stark, is that they planned this out and there are notes passed between them, messages passed between them to show that they're planning it, how they're going to lure her out, how they got her to close her

eyes. I believe it was her birthday, got her to close her eyes so they could then attack her and stab her with her eyes closed, saying it was going to be a surprise. They even planned a code word for when to start the attack. And as you're always saying, Nancy, according to the law, if they know the difference between right and wrong, then they can't be considered mentally insane. Listen to this. 911, what's the address of your emergency? Foxtrot County, Linneum.

Transfer over a caller on Big Bend at the dead end just south of Rivera. Okay. Came upon a 12-year-old female. She appears to be stabbed. She appears to be what? Stabbed. Stabbed? Correct.

Okay. Sir, you still there? Yes. Hi, sir. So are you with this 12-year-old female? Yes. She says she's having trouble breathing. She said she was stabbed multiple times.

Stabbed multiple times? Yes. Okay, sir, are you with her right now? Yes. Is she awake? She's awake. Is she breathing? Yeah, she's breathing.

She said she can take shallow breaths. She's alert. Okay, stay with her. We're sending the police department. Don't hang up, okay? Hold on just a minute. Don't hang up. Okay. Okay. Hold on just a minute, sir. We're sending the police department. Don't hang up, okay? Hold on just a minute. Don't hang up. Okay. Okay. Hold on just a minute, sir. We're sending officers.

Is there any assailant around? I didn't even look. I don't see anybody. Okay, stay right with her, sir. Is she on the ground or is she standing up? No, she's laying on the grass. Laying on the grass. Stay right with her. Just let me know if she is remaining conscious or not, okay? Okay. Is there any bleeding going on? Her clothing has got blood on it.

Where are the wounds? Do you see where the wounds are? No, I don't know if I should be rolling her over and checking or not. Do you know where? Okay, just stay with her and just let me know if she's conscious or alert or stops breathing or anything. Hold on a minute. Talk to the ambulance. Police are also en route.

Okay, thank you. Just keep her in that position. Just let me know on her breathing. Okay. What's your name, sir? My name? Your name. My name.

Okay, were you just passing through? Yes. Okay, and you found her and she was just laying there? Yes. Okay. An amateur submarine inventor goes on, let me just say, an underwater cruise with a young brunette journalist. And now we learned she goes missing and he has no idea what happened. Wait a minute.

Where can she go from a submarine? I mean, how far can she get if she's underwater on a submarine? So what does James Bond have to say about this, taking the brunette journalist underwater in his homemade submarine? Why did he take her there? Was she doing a story on him or his contraption? Well, this is what I know. I know in the last hours, a female torso has been discovered. Is it her? Joining me right now is investigative reporter and crime stories contributor, Cheryl White. Cheryl, thank you for being with us. What happened? First of all, this guy, people have a lot of wacky hobbies. I get that.

But building submarines, who is this person? Well, he's an inventor. He's a do-it-yourself submarine builder. His name is Peter Madsen. He's been in an ongoing fight over this particular submarine, which I'll get to later. But in essence, because the submarine was being relaunched, it was initially launched in 2008. He through crowdfunding, refurbished it and was relaunching it was doing an interview with 30 year old freelance journalist Kim Walt. So they went out for a little voyage, it was it was going to be a very short ride. So she could continue her interview

for a future story so wait a minute let me understand this this guy peter madison goes out with the reporter and she is going to write a story about him building this the amateur submarine apparently it worked and he had launched it before and actually did crowdsourcing to get the money to refurbish it and relaunch it. So this beautiful young reporter is going to do the story. I've just got to tell you, to forensic psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober, it reminds me in a horrible way of Stephen Avery, the subject of Making a Murderer. And now, because of the way that was edited, everybody thinks Stephen Avery is innocent. Well, he's not, okay? But she, Teresa Holbach, was a journalist,

and she was a photographer, and she went to Avery's place to take photos of a vehicle he wanted to sell on AutoTrader, and she was never seen alive again. This woman, in this case, goes to write a feature story on, let's just say, an eccentric, I'll call him that for now, who had built this submarine. Okay, what can I just ask? I'm going to go to Cheryl because she's the only other female with me right now. You know, it's all I can do to take care of the twins, to cook for them, to get them bathed, get their homework done, keep them on the straight and narrow, give them love, work all the time, constantly working. Why do men have so much time for hobbies? And I mean,

obscure hobbies, like building a submarine. You know what? If my husband came home and said he was going to build a submarine in the basement, oh yeah, I would totally be calling Claypool to file a divorce. He's not building a freaking submarine while I'm out there making snacks and hemming up uniform pants. I think this is sort of what he did, though. You know, this submarine has consumed his life for many years now. And he had been in a long running battle with some of the volunteers who helped him build it so he could regain control of this submarine. And Nancy, I don't know if you heard this or not. Let me get over to a quote here. During the battle over who was going to own or caretake this submarine, he sent out a note that said, you might think that a curse is lying on Nautilus, what he called the submarine. There

will not be peace of Nautilus for as long as I exist. You cannot lift that curse legally. A curse? That's what he called the submarine. There will not be peace of Nautilus for as long as I exist. You cannot lift that curse legally. A curse? That's what he said. Oh, man. Thank heaven I have a shrink on with me today. But before I get into Madsen's belief that there's a curse on the Nautilus, nobody is sufficiently answering why I am up there hemming uniform pants and making snacks

while the men in the world have hobbies such as building a submarine in the basement. Or they can go golf for nine hours on a Saturday. Or, you know what? Whatever. Go down in the basement and do your ham radio, men. Okay? I'm going to keep making snacks and cooking supper and working. Okay. But that's just me. I think I may be projecting.

Let me get back to the facts of this case. So she goes down. I hear snickering, but guess what? I don't care. So she goes to do a story and just like Teresa Hallback, I guarantee you, she got a freaky vibe when she goes onto this submarine. Okay, back to Cheryl White, our reporter. Just hold back for a moment, Brian Claypool and Daniel Bober. I know you're chomping at the bit. Okay, so what happens then? They go underwater on the submarine. Oh, it would have been a cold day in H-E-W-L before I put one toe in his submarine. But go ahead, Cheryl. What happened? Well, Nancy, the last photos seen of the two are in the tower of the submarine. And Kim Wall looks fine. She

actually looks like she's smiling. So what happened between the time that they left the dock there and the time that the submarine sank. That was the next morning. Well, I think I've got a pretty good idea to Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, because a woman's torso has just washed up. How in the hay did he have time to kill her and dismember her? If he did that in the submarine, I guarantee you it is a crime scene tech field day but but let's talk about the fact that she's smiling the last moment that she's seen and now we i believe this is her torso well she could have been coerced she could have been threatened

he could have decapitated her after her body was outside the submarine, clearly, you know, this was obviously no accident. And if he decapitated her, some attempt was made to conceal the crime, if that's not how she actually died from the decapitation itself. Well, here's, let me just throw a little monkey wrench in the works for you, Brian Claypool, defense attorney out of LA. He now says, he has now said that there was an accident and she died. I can thoroughly understand an accident in a submarine. But if it were an accident, Brian Claypool, why did he have to chop her head off and, quote, bury her at sea?

I mean, Brian, if you and I were sitting around the coffee table having a cup of coffee, okay, and then suddenly a lamp fell on your head and you died, I would not cut your head off and bury you in the backyard. Or at least I don't think I would. So explain to me the whole decapitation process and why he had to, quote, bury her at sea, Brian Claypool. And, hey, you've already used up the snap defense in the first segment, so that's not going to work on this one, okay?

All right? No snap. You only get one snap defense a day. I want to thank you for sparing my head after you kill me after we have coffee. So thank you for that, number one. I said a lamp fell on your head. Number two. That I happen to be holding.

But go ahead. Number two, not all men have these flamboyant hobbies my my simple hobbies are reading the sports page and maybe jogging every other day so let's let's set the record straight with men out there too and me being a single parent of a little girl as well so so not all men are like this this guy all right but let's get to the heart of this a couple facts that are gravitating against uh built a submarine in his basement, but go ahead. First of all, he has no prior history with this young lady. There's no evidence of... Neither did Scott Peterson. Scott Peterson had no prior history either, but look what happened.

The difference there is he was married to Lacey. This guy has zero connection at all with this woman. And that's going to help his defense because there's not going to be any evidence of the neighbors overhearing these two fighting, for example, or any police reports from her calling and reporting that he's being violent toward her. So there's going to be zero evidence of that, number one. And then number two, you've already mentioned another important fact, that this young lady looked very happy just before something happened. So that does suggest that this could have very well been an accident, Nancy. You know, the other thing, this guy, we agree, is an eccentric.

The victim was certainly no idiot. I mean, Dr. Bober, have you seen her CV? I mean, she has degrees from Columbia University and the London School of Economics. You know, that's not a walk in the park. She's no idiot. No, she had a very impressive resume, but by the time she realized that she was in danger, she was in this submarine probably isolated from any possible help, and she probably knew it was too late and may have even known what was coming. You know, another issue is that Brian Claypool pointed out, which is the work of a consummate defense attorney, that she was smiling. Okay,

well, Teresa Halbach was probably smiling the afternoon before she was murdered by Stephen Avery. Also, have you ever been in an uncomfortable situation and you just, someone says something inappropriate or they do something that's, you know, passive aggressive and you just kind of brush it off and keep going because that's your job. You just ignore it and keep going. I mean, I do it all the time. And this woman had to do a story. That was her job. She went on the submarine to write a feature piece about Madsen and his submarine. Now she's dead and I guarantee you this is her torso. So the fact that she was smiling earlier while she was trying to do this story, that means nothing to me. What matters now is she'll never smile again because she's dead. I guarantee you Dr. Bober,

walk me through this with me, forensic psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober, veteran defense attorney Brian Claypool out of L.A., and investigative reporter Cheryl White is with us. Dr. Bober, I guarantee you this is what went down. She's in the sub with him asking questions. She's smiling. She's beautiful. She's making conversation with him.

She's being a professional. She probably turns around, and there he is all puckered up. And he attacked her. Yes. And she resists. He attacks her and kills her. We may never know whether he raped her or not. But I guarantee you something along those lines is what went down, Daniel.

It sounds like the most likely scenario. He basically ambushed her. And again, I think the fact that she was smiling, again, she was just probably being a professional, trying to do her job. And she probably turned for one second, and maybe he took her by surprise. Or she had to resist his advances, and he wouldn't take no for an answer. But like you said, we'll probably never. To Brian Claypool, he claims to police that she, Wall, disembarked on an island about three and a half hours into their trip on Thursday night. I didn't know this was a sleepover trip, Cheryl. I thought she just went on and they took a cruise. But no, they went on what was planned to be an overnight trip. Did you know that part? No, he said they were going to just

rob her off. Yeah, on a deserted island three and a half hours away. And that occurred on Thursday night, according to police. Now, also, there is an indication that the submarine sunk, guys. And in my mind, it was deliberately sunk to get rid of evidence. To conceal the evidence. You were right on that. So what's going to happen now that a torso has actually washed up, Cheryl? Well, we're expecting to find out more today about that. They couldn't identify the body. Not only was the head missing, but also the arms and legs.

Oh, my stars. I didn't know that part, Cheryl. I mean, the head's enough, but the arms and the legs, too. Yes. There goes your crime of passion. There goes your crime of passion defense, Claypool. Go ahead, Cheryl. Well, there are so many interesting things here because, you know, at first he said he knew nothing about it.

He had dropped her off at this island that had been reclaimed. And there was a restaurant there, I guess. But I guess the restaurant had surveillance cameras. They turned those camera videos over to police. It was soon after that that apparently he changed his story. And he said, well, maybe I didn't drop drop her off what really happened was there was an accident she died and i buried her at sea so he changed his story i find that very suspicious dear lord in heaven there was an accident i just went ahead and buried her at sea right now when he left the private boat, a TV channel, too, shows him the great inventor getting off a private boat to discuss the subsinking and his rescue.

And he says, boy, that certainly is a fly in the ointment, isn't it? So he gets off the rescue boat, and there are all the camera crews there. And what does he do? Dr. Daniel Bober, he gives a thumbs up and he has to say something. So he says, I'm fine, but I'm sad because the nautilus went down. That's his statement, Dr. Bober. He doesn't seem like he really has the best social skills, Nancy, I have to say. Okay, Claypool, just give me your defense. I've got to hear this. Well, first of all, you and Daniel should collaborate

because that's an incredible suspense novel that the two of you are writing about what you think went down. He was puckering up down there, and she rebuffed his advance. Hey, that sounds like a good book for me to read later tonight. She's working, trying to make a living, and she turns around and sees nothing but lips. Well, yeah. Huge difference, though, between the book you two

are writing and proving beyond reasonable doubt in a courtroom that this guy murdered her. The other biggest fact that's going to really harm the prosecution's case is that, you know, tragically, this body was underwater. We don't know whether there were any animals in the water

that might have been surgically tested. That decapitated and surgically cut off every limb? Absolutely, absolutely. Oh, come on. Why not? Are you kidding me? Let me ask you a question, Deanna. Well, you know what?

Before we go off the deep end, I'm not sure. Is there a weapon? Is there any DNA? Is there any physical evidence? There's zero, zero to prove that. Well, they'll be able to examine the cuts. Okay, well, hold on. Hold on.

I think I've got proof. I think I've got proof. There's no eyewitnesses. There's no eyewitnesses. When I came into the studio today, I guess I'm going to have to cut his mic. When I came into the studio today, it was dry outside and sunny. The temp was quickly approaching 90. If I went outside right now and there were puddles everywhere and people were going by with umbrellas and raincoats, I would know that it had rained. I

don't have to see the storm. I don't have to see the lightning, hear the thunder to know that it had rained. I don't have to see the storm. I don't have to see the lightning, hear the thunder to know that it rained while I'm in the studio. That's called circumstantial evidence. Okay. Go ahead, Claypool, clench your teeth, bite your tongue. So if he is saying she died by accident and I gave her burial at sea. If he's saying that now, it's like his third or fourth story, and this torso is connected to her, and it doesn't have a head, I can pretty much assume that he cut her head off.

Also, the medical examiner will be able to tell by the severance at the neck as to whether there are tool marks or bite marks. Or bite marks. But, I mean, what shark or water beast is going to bite her head and each arm off? Clearly, that was done to avoid identification. Okay, we'll keep you posted on this, but what I know right now, as much as we've been kicking around facts and legal theories, is that there is a family somewhere grieving because Kim Wall is dead and suffered a horrific death.

And as we go to air right now, we are learning that police are looking for her clothing. Now, this is based off a torso, which means she was unclothed. As we understand, prosecutors are commencing their investigation to seek a murder charge. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.