Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - CULT MOM LORI VALLOW: Children's Blood on PICKAXE?

Episode Date: July 21, 2022

A motion filed by the prosecution in the Chad and Lori Daybell cases asks that DNA testing be performed on items found the Daybell property. Those items:  a shovel, pickaxe, the duct tape that was surrounding JJ's body, and also DNA testing on JJ's fingernails.  What's at issue is consumptive DNA testing, meaning, that when the testing is complete there is no more DNA for future tests. So, there is only one shot at it and that's the reason why the prosecution has waited this long to do it. Joining Nancy Grace today:  Wendy Patrick - California prosecutor, author “Red Flags” www.wendypatrickphd.com 'Today with Dr. Wendy' on KCBQ in San Diego, Twitter: @WendyPatrickPHD  Dr. Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, (Atlanta GA) www.angelaarnoldmd.com, Expert in the Treatment of Pregnant/Postpartum Women, Former Assistant Professor of Psychiatry, Obstetrics and Gynecology: Emory University, Former Medical Director of The Psychiatric Ob-Gyn Clinic at Grady Memorial Hospital Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan" Shera LaPoint - Genetic Genealogist, Author: "The Gene Hunter", Founder: TheGeneHunter.com, Twitter: @LapointShera  Nate Eaton - News Director, EastIdahoNews.com Twitter: @NateNewsNow, Instagram: @n.eaton  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Cult mom. That should ring a bell. Lori Vallow and I think her fourth husband, the prophet, Chad Daybell, the doomster. Remember his wife died, oh, what a coinkydink, in her sleep after he predicted her death. Now, both of them must be clairvoyant because a couple of weeks before Tammy Daybell died in her sleep, lying beside Chad Daybell, cult mom Lori Valle, who's sleeping with Daybell,

decided she would order a beach, B-E-A-C-H, a beach wedding dress and a ring. Before Tammy Daybell died. And guess what? A couple of weeks later, after Tammy was dead and buried, she, called Mama Lori Vallow, marries Chad Daybell. You know, the scout motto, be prepared, and boy was she, but more concerning, the deaths and the dismemberment of her own children, J.J. and Tylee. We're waiting for trial, but in the last hours, a stunning move by the state.

I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. What could be more stunning than we already know the remains of these children, one dismembered, burned, buried in a pet cemetery out in back of a farmhouse. The other seemingly hermetically sealed, still wearing his PJs that he had on when he was murdered. Take a listen right now to our Cut 87, our friend Nate Eaton, East Idaho News. A motion that has been filed by the prosecution in the Chad and Lori Daybell cases. This motion was filed in both cases, and prosecutors are asking that DNA testing be performed on a few things that were found at Chad Daybell's property. A shovel, a pickaxe, DNA testing under JJ's fingernails, tape, the duct tape that was surrounding him, testing on that that and i believe one or two other things i can't recall off the top of my head but what they're what they're asking is they want the

state lab or someone a dna expert to do consumptive dna testing on that what that means is that when they go in and do the test they test all the dna at once so that after it's done, there's no more DNA to test. So basically, you kind of have one shot at it. And that's the reason why, most likely, the prosecution has waited this long to do it. I don't know if that's a really good reason for waiting that long to do it. But before we rush into a technical discussion of DNA, deoxyribonucleic acid. Let me take that in. Let me take that in what Nate Eaton just reported. If you don't know who Nate Eaton is, you got to be living under a rock in a cave. Nate Eaton, if you'll recall, cult mom Lori Vallow immediately goes to Hawaii, marries Chad Daybell, and then everybody realizes, wow, the children are missing.

They're not where she said they were. Eaton flies over to Hawaii, and every time Lori Vallow comes out of the plush condo she's sharing with her new husband, you see his hand in the picture running along beside her going, Hey, hey, hey, hey, where are your children? You got any idea where JJ is? Where's Tylee? What's happening? Did you get married?

What's going on? His hand became famous before he was. But this is him talking and he says, This is my point. DNA. What does that mean? Blood. Human tissue.

Maybe it's brain matter. Maybe it's muscle. DNA on a shovel. A pickaxe. Under the little boy, JJ, seven years old. Under his fingernails. On tape. seven years old, under his fingernails, on tape, on the duct tape that had been wrapped around him like an Egyptian mummy. Think about what they're looking for. They're looking for these children,

JJ and Tylee's blood, their muscle, their soft tissue, their fat, their skin, their hair, on a pickaxe, on a shovel. Sometimes there are no words to describe the evil in our world. And the only thing we can do is fight it. Just fight it. Joining me right now in all-star panel, but I want to start with Nate Eaton joining us. He's the news director at EastIdahoNews.com. On Twitter, you can find him at NateNewsNow. Nate Eaton,

explain what you're saying because I believe there's a way around this. You're saying that if they do these tests, they'll use up the DNA? Well, on these specific items, so the items we're talking about is hairs on the duct tape.

Whoa, wait a minute. Hold on. Because I don't like what you just said. When we were quoting you, you said other items I can't recall. Okay, you're the news director. You're supposed to tell us all the items, okay? So let's start at the get-go.

Hair on duct tape. That makes perfect sense. If duct tape was wrapped around his head, it reminds me of Kelly, you know, top mom's little girl, Casey Anthony's little girl that had duct tape across her mouth. So they're looking for hair on the duct tape that was wrapped around JJ. Okay, go ahead. I'm making a chart here, so I'm writing as quickly as I can. Go ahead, Nate. Okay. And then ridge detail, which are fingerprints on the tape associated with JJ's body. I'm really surprised they haven't already done that.

Hold on. So basically fingerprints. And if you don't get a whole print, and we'll go to Joe Scott and Morgan in just a moment on this, you can get a partial print. Nate, have you ever really looked at a blow-up of a known print? Let's just say Chad Daybell's print, a known print. You take his fingerprint when he's booked in. That's your known print.

Compared to the other print, the latent print, which is found on a window or a driving steering wheel or a door, but in this case on duct tape. It's amazing. You look for 10, 20, or more similarities in the swirls, and every person has their own set of swirls. Nobody has one like it. You know what I like to do? I like to make a postcard, a black and white postcard,

of the known print and the latent print that's picked up off the duct tape, blow up pictures side by side on a glossy postcard, and circle in red the similarities and hand those out to the jurors. Kind of a keepsake. Awesome. Okay, back to you. Ridge detail to the jurors. Kind of a keepsake. Awesome. Okay, back to you. Ridge detail on the duct tape. Also, you mentioned the pickaxe and the shovel.

They're looking for small, dark spots on the handles. And these were tools that were in Chad Daybell's barn right there, right near where the kids were found. Small, dark spots. You mean that hasn't already been tested for blood well the prosecution tried to test all of these things back in early 2021 but the defense attorneys immediately objected they didn't want it done uh they they didn't want the consumptive dna testing done meaning they were worried that it would use it all up and then laurie became

incompetent so everything kind of got put on hold? You just popped my earpiece out when you said that Lori became incompetent. Why do you say things like that, Nate Eaton? She did not become incompetent. She has been later declared competent. What was that anyway? Was she acting crazy? Well, according to the court, yes, she was. And so she went to the state hospital for about 10 months, was declared competent earlier this year. And so now we're seeing a lot of progress in the case. Things are moving forward. Wait, were her crazy, wacko religious beliefs her, quote, incompetence? Was that where they were getting that she was incompetent?

All of that is sealed, but one could assume that the religious delusions, as they were calling them, were part of her incompetency. She did go to the state mental hospital for 10 months where the inmate, where she was able to wear normal clothes. She wasn't in handcuffs. She wasn't in a cell. She was able to eat well. They did some psychological tests on her. She was able to do her hair and makeup. I didn't know I was going to have to bring the shrink this quickly.

But Dr. Angela Arnold, psychiatrist, renowned psychiatrist, joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, AngelaArnoldMD.com. Dr. Angie, please, if your mental illness is cured by some new clothes and makeup, you're not mentally ill. Please just have a shopping day at the mall and you're fine. This woman is not incompetent. That's a lie. Jackie, you have to pull up.

Best of their wacky, crazy beliefs. Remember all of that? Bizarro. What about that, Dr. Angie? In a nutshell, I got to get back to the DNA. This woman is full of cluster B diagnoses, okay? But they do not make you incompetent, all right? She has lots of personality disorders, but none of those make her incompetent. I think her biggest issue is she's very manipulative. You know what, Dr. Angie?

I've just got to say, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, author of Red Flags, hosted today with Dr. Wendy, KCBQ, wendypatrickphd.com. That's BS. Bottom line, everything that makes her a horrible person,

Dr. Angie says, is a personality disorder. She's cruel. She's heartless. She's self-centered. She cares more about landing the next husband than she does about her children. Dr. Angie can put perfume on the pig all she wants to, but this just makes her, in my mind, the devil's minion. She is Satan's mistress. There you go. That's what goes on the postcard after this trial. We'll hand those out to the jurors. But that conclusion will be arrived at by looking at her conduct, by looking at her intentional conduct, the sophistication of it, the deliberation, everything that goes into proving something was knowing and intentional and not the product of incompetence

or insanity legally or anything else. And that's no doubt the way this trial is going to be conducted now that whatever that was about, you know, you and I have had tons of cases where people have been by a court declared unfit to stand trial and then of course very quickly sometimes there they are back in action. One of the things I suppose will develop in this particular case is why the investigation stopped when she was declared incompetent. Why didn't it simply continue in the interim?

But you're right, you know, actions speak louder than words. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. crime stories with nancy grace nate eat nothing maybe the delay wasn't just for her to finally get deemed competent but because we were in the throes of covid during a lot of this and nobody was rushing into the crime lab to look at samples but hey you just said something that really hit home you hit a home run again Wendy Patrick do you remember Nate Eaton in one of cult mom's court appearances didn't she create lip gloss out of something behind bars and had her hair in mermaid curls and had her toenails polished while she's in court talking about her murdered and dismembered and bird charred children i mean that it reminded me of jody arias uh who would always have her hair and makeup who

also shot a bird at me in court. Always be completely perfect with all her makeup and hair and blah, blah. And then go in court to look at pictures of her lover who started rotting in the shower where she left him. I mean, reality check. Didn't she make her own lip gloss? Yeah, with the help of a Jolly Rancher. It was a Jolly Rancher candy. Okay, I'd like to talk about deoxyribonucleic acid with you, Dr. Cheryl LaPointe. she make her own lip gloss yeah with the help of a jolly rancher it was a jolly rancher okay i'd

like to talk about deoxyribonucleic acid with you dr uh cheryl lapointe but hold on i need to hear about the jolly rancher lip gloss what what did you just say because i would totally totally argue that an opening statement she's more concerned about her lip gloss than her dead children please tell me the joolly Rancher punchline. This was her very first court appearance in Idaho after they flew her back from Hawaii. From her Hawaiian honeymoon. Okay. She walks in the courtroom with pink handcuffs on and she's got bright pink red lipstick that we later learned the jail inmates will take Jolly Rancher as they get from the commissary, mix it with water, and then they'll apply that to their lips. And yeah, her hair was curled. It had the

mermaid curls and she walked in there and sat down and acted like she didn't have a care in the world. Okay, Dr. Angie, go on, put perfume on that pig. What's her personality disorder? Narcissism, histrionic. I know of your terms, Dr. Angie. I don't know what they mean, but I know them. Well, Nancy, I think that people, I think that all of your viewers want to know if Lori Vallow, what is driving her? Why is she the way she is? And so that's why I bring up these different personality disorders that I believe that she exhibits. Okay. Whoa, whoa, wait.

You're not asking why is she the way she is. Don't tell me you're going to go all the way back. My mommy spanked me when I killed the dog. My daddy ignored me. Blah, blah, blah. You know what? No, don't care. Do not care.

All I care about is why these children are dead. But I will give you a tiny peek into, hey, there's got to be pots and pans beating against each other in her head. I want you to listen to Kim Powell, her friend from Arizona Family TV, this is on their religion. In October 2018, Lori was speaking at some sort of religious gathering. She was telling the group of people there

about her firsthand experiences with God and with spirits. But she started off by telling them about the issues she had with her ex-husband, Joseph Ryan, and how she wanted to kill him. I'll just start by saying that I am a personal witness of the resurrected Jesus Christ. I am his advocate and I am his friend. Lori Vallow has dubbed herself a devout member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In court documents and police reports, she talks about how she's put on this earth to gather people for the second coming of Christ.

The time is now. The Lord is gathering his people. He is calling people to the 144,000. They're already being called. They're already being sent on their mission. And I guess her mission was to murder her children. Now, the Mormons took great pains to disassociate themselves from this fringe group that Lori Vallow was in, and that was Kim Powell speaking from Arizona Family TV. Nate Eaton, the religious beliefs were even more bizarre. She insists that her, basically anybody she doesn't like, has been possessed by a demon. She even has names for the demons, and they can't be repossessed.

They can't be cured, so she has to kill them. That's part of her religion, as I recall. That's a yes-no, Nate Eaton. Correct, yep. Okay. I want to go now to special guests joining us, in addition to Nate, Dr. Angie, Wendy Patrick. Joe Scott Morgan is with us,

Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and host of a brand new hit series on iHeart, Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. And to Shira LaPointe, genetic genealogist, author of The Gene Hunter, G-E-N-E, and founder of TheGenehunter.com. Shira, we heard Nate Eaton describe a consumptive DNA test. Isn't it true that there are some methods by which when you have a very small amount of DNA, that DNA chain can be replicated or grown? So you have a greater amount of DNA? Yes, ma'am. With technology today, it's possible to do that. It's possible to actually do full genome sequencing. And with that information, we can actually use that to replicate DNA. In this case, I believe they're looking for DNA evidence that's going to prove who was there when the murders occurred.

And with all of the things that they have to DNA test, they want to at one time test all of this. But just like you said, I believe it's possible that there is technology out there that you can test these items and you don't have to use all of the items at one time. And Cheryl LaPointe joining me. And guys, you got to really listen carefully what she says because she'll go into warp four, and you have to really dissect each word.

Joe Scott, same way, because it does sound very technical. But Cheryl LaPointe, you and I have talked a lot about it. There's a group, isn't it, Jackie? Othram Labs. Yes. There are labs like Othram that deal with degenerated DNA, DNA that has been contaminated, like been out in dirt or rain or in bad conditions. And that is one of their specialties. Aren't there labs that specialize in extracting, let me say, criminal DNA when there are really bad circumstances,

like the DNA is really old. You find a skull that's been out in the desert for 25 years, or the DNA has been underwater or in mud, or just all sorts of concerning circumstances as it relates to getting a good DNA sample. There are labs that specialize in that. Absolutely, Nancy. And, you know, these cases are being filed, multiple cases every week now. So, you know, they really, I believe that, you know, the prosecution should look at maybe going with a private lab that can

preserve some of the DNA, maybe not use all of it in case, you know, there's a reason that further testing is needed. You know, we have fingernails. You know, they swab the fingernails during an autopsy. I mean, we've talked about that before. Absolutely. You know, if this poor child fought when he was being murdered, it's very possible that he scratched someone and they can test back. Nate Eaton, did you hear what Cheryl LaPointe, our genetic genealogist and author, just said? She said that they want to test for who tests these items, a shovel and a pickaxe,

which really shouldn't even be in the same sentence as your child that's passed on. But for who may have tested for who may have been there at the time of the death. What does that mean? What exactly is the state looking for? I would have assumed that the state was looking for the children's DNA when they were dismembered or murdered on that pickaxe or shovel. Well, yeah, I think they're going to look for the children's DNA, but also who was holding that shovel, who was holding that pickaxe. Now, one can assume. And the tape, you're right.

And the tape. And one can assume that Chad's DNA, Chad Daybell's DNA will be on that because it was his. Then he maybe used those tools for other things. But will Alex Cox's DNA be on that because it was his, then he maybe used those tools for other things. But will Alex Cox's DNA be on that? Will Lori Vallow's DNA be on that? What's interesting to me, Nancy, in all of this, in all of the public records, is that all of the DNA they're collecting is from the remains of JJ. They have not mentioned collecting any DNA from Tylee's and from what we have heard is that because there's not much left those officers had to sift through dirt to try to find any remain or any of her remains anything belonging to her it was finally a piece of tissue that they were able to identify her with

so they're they're hopeful that they can get as much as they can off of JJ's remains, off of his body, because they don't have much to work with on Tylee. Enter Joe Scott Morgan, Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University. What Nate Eaton said is absolutely correct. And I would like you to explain to our listeners and viewers why we can't get DNA regarding Tylee, the teen girl who was just at that time starting to say no mom and fight back with mommy. And then, whoops, I guess a demon got in her and she had to be killed. Yeah, well, yeah. Yeah, and it's so gruesome what did, in fact, at least it has been implied to this point. We don't have all the details about Tylee, but we do know that, you know, you were talking about the DNA sample a few moments ago.

We would, you know, refer to that as degraded. Hers is greatly degraded to the point where it's almost non-existent from a criminal standpoint. Anything that you're going to lift out of there as far as trace elements. But what happened to her body? What did this child endure post-mortem? Yeah. And I think that, you know, when we begin to think about, and as horrible as this is, but when we begin to think about the aspect of dismemberment, Nancy, depended upon the amount of skeletal remain that they found on her.

We might be able to match up tool marks if they have some kind of instrument that was used in order to conduct this dismemberment that they keep, that it keeps coming up in the conversation. But to a broader point, when you think about JJ, and I brought this up several times along the way, there is this memorialization that took place with him that didn't happen with her. It was just horrific with her to the point where they completely got rid of her remains. But with JJ, he might hold all of the answers to this case. You know, you mentioned hair just a moment ago, or Nate did, which I found quite fascinating on the surface of this tape. Not just that, but the latent print,

which we would refer to on the surface of that tape, the adhesive side of the tape, that's called a plastic print, where it leaves this impression. It's not like a print that you would commonly see on a smooth surface, but literally it's adherent and you can actually appreciate ridge detail and these sorts of things. And we can classify that and that'll be tied back to a specific person. But the hair, the hair, if that touched,

say for instance, the hair on the perpetrator's arm and it pulled loose or on their head, remember we shed hair, we shed skin, all these things are going to be adhering. What about epithelial cells, skin cells? I mean, by the time you take a piece of duct tape and you rip it off and then you wrap it around something, I've got to believe that your epithelial or skin cells are on that piece of duct tape. Yeah, we shed roughly about 100,000, some people

say, skin cells. And that's a rough estimate skin cells per day i mean there's a whole market built on skin lotions and whatnot for dry skin that's just what you can see the stuff that's invisible it kind of floats around again that goes back to touch dna but wouldn't it be fascinating um how did you cut the duct tape you know a lot of people will take duct tape and put it in their mouth and tear it. I wonder if that's an issue. And then if that comes in contact with, say, and it's the most passive thing that can happen in these circumstances where you don't realize you're transferring your own DNA to these surfaces.

And for me, that's quite fascinating. The instruments themselves, you know, that's going to be a bit tougher to get because in the morgue, we actually do blood cards where we'll take a drop of blood and put it onto a card and we retain that. But it's retained in a very environmentally secure environment, okay, with these instruments. Oh, my gosh. Those are going to be dried. And if it is blood, and I'm hoping that they have established that without destroying the sample, if it is blood and they extract that, well, that's, you know, did the perpetrators hurt themselves?

Had they been hurt? Did they drip blood? Or is this blood that has been transferred? I just had an idea. Number one, Joe Scott, you know what I'd like to see you do? I'd like to see you do a whole issue on body bags regarding specifically with this most recent motion by the state and what we think they may obtain, specifically forensic, just focused on the forensics. And to Cheryl LaPointe, joining me, genetic genealogist and author, we've talked about what consumptive DNA tests are.

You consume, you consume it all. There's nothing left to test. About how in many cases, contaminated DNA, even in small amounts, can be regenerated, replicated. What's a good example? What is that creature, Jackie, that can grow? Oh, a lizard can do it. Its tail falls off. It can grow another tail. A jellyfish can live forever because it regenerates. Same thing with DNA. You take a little and you can recreate it in the lab to give you enough DNA to make the test. But Cheryl, the point, can we talk about epithelial cell DNA as it relates to this duct tape? Any chance that we could get the killer's skin cells?

Or what about JJ's pajamas? Could there be fiber, skin cells, or hair on his pajamas? Because he was basically hermetically sealed like a mummy. What do you think about epithelial cells on the duct tape of the perp or possibly trace evidence left behind on the PJs of JJ? You know, there may be DNA on those PJs, but just because it's on PJs doesn't necessarily mean that that's the person who murdered him. Hey, you know what? I'll take those odds, Cheryl LaPointe,

who's not only a genetic genealogist, but apparently a lawyer as well. I'll take that. You show me. You show me Chad Daybell's epithelial or hair, epithelial cells or hair on JJ's PJs, and you put that to a jury, the PJs he's wearing when he is murdered and buried. I'll take it and I will run with it.

I agree with you. But, you know, thinking about duct tape, Nancy, I, when I use duct tape, of course, my husband fixes everything with duct tape, but I cannot. I have a hard time dealing with duct tape by myself. It almost takes two people. I have a hard time relating to you. You must have some really nice fingernails, okay, because I can rip it off just like that, just all the time. But you think we could get skin cells, not just fingerprints, but skin cells off that duct tape?

Absolutely. Absolutely. And evidently, there was hair on some of this duct tape. And again, you know, it's not so easy. I actually had that conversation with Dr. Millman last week about hair. You know, if the roots there, of course, you have a nucleus and it's easier to find DNA. But if it's just a shaft of hair, it actually, since 2019, you know, there's a technique that can be used to identify that hair. That's right. You don't have to have a nucleus or the root of the hair anymore, which I know we're getting way, way, way, way deep in forensics. But this is a huge, huge happening in the forensic world. Jump in and talk regular people talk, please. in forensics. But this is a huge, huge happening in the forensic world. Jump in and talk, regular people talk, please.

I beg you. Listen, when we begin to think of Lori and that her proclivity for her beauty and coloring her hair, you know, what's really fascinating about hair forensics is that, you know, when we examine hair, the morphology of it, we can actually pick up on dyes. Did you say morphology? Yeah. So the hair morphing, it's nature, such as in, again, the Totmom case,

hair from Kelly was found in the car trunk. The defense tried to argue, well, maybe because it's only mitochondrial DNA, it could be Totmom, Casey Anthony's, or even her mother, Cindy Anthony's. But the reality is both of those treated their hair. They colored their hair, whereas Kaylee did not. And the hair in the trunk was uncolored, which means it was Kaylee's hair. Is that what you're saying? Yes, I am.

And I think that would be fascinating if that was a hair that was found on the inside. Is that Sharon jumping in? No, this is Wendy Patrick. Jump in. I would call all of this forensic storytelling. This is what I would narrate in front of the jury because this is so important. We're talking about evidence providing a narrative that the victims cannot. And then after we've laid it all out through all experts like the other panelists,

we would say the only reasonable interpretation of everything we've heard points to guilt. So this is fascinating. It's not in the weeds. It's actually the type of thing that will debunk what some of our jurors are used to hearing on shows like CFI. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. crime stories with nancy grace hey guys take a listen to our cut 89 this is our friend nate at east idaho news most likely they will want a representative from their team in the lab when the testing is done or excuse me the one a photographer with a video camera in that lab when the test is testing is being done that will be up

to the judge to decide how that happens however with this motion that was filed today there was a statement filed by a lady who works at the lab saying that they don't want a camera in there and they don't want anybody else in there there could be some worry that the DNA could be contaminated if you have a camera in there if you have somebody else in there so they are saying that it's best not to at the state lab so now it could be moved to a private lab no no no no Nate Eaton first I was going to talk to you about the irony of the defense. Okay, so according to the state, Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow, cult mom, take part in murdering her children.

Now, they're insisting that there is a camera when the DNA on the pickaxe is being tested. That's, you know, wow. They got a nerve, right? But you know what? when the DNA on the pickaxe is being tested. That's, you know, wow. They got a nerve, right? But you know what? I'd be mad if they didn't. And the crime lab better suck it up and put a camera in there. It can even be a robotic camera.

That at a distance is not going to taint the DNA. All right? That's not going to happen. So if they can't handle it, then it needs to go to a private lab that can handle it. I mean, Cheryl Point, how could a robotic camera in the distance taint the DNA? Nancy, I've been inside, for instance, of Osram Labs. This testing is all done behind glass, you cannot just walk into the area where they're doing this DNA testing, but you could stand behind the glass wall and video what's going on. I don't know how their lab is set up. And, you know, I can kind of understand the taming of the DNA, but honestly, there are ways around this.

You darn right, Cheryl LaPointe. They may need to bring you on of counsel to explain to them that it can't be done. If the defense wants a video, fine, have a video. I don't think anybody needs to pull a trick to prove that these children were murdered by Daybell and Vallow in some way or the other. Guys, let's bring it home to what we're really talking about. Take a listen to Hour Cut 46 at Chad Daybell's preliminary hearing. You're hearing Detective Ray Hermosillo on the stand.

They removed some soil and there was a, once they removed some soil, there was a black, what I can best describe as a black plastic bag with a round object protruding through the dirt. Okay. What did you observe the ER team do after you saw that? They dug a little bit more around the round object which appeared to me to be the crown of a head protruding through the dirt. They used a small sharp instrument to cut through the black plastic. There was a white plastic underneath the black plastic and they also used the white instrument to cut through the white plastic. Okay and what did you observe when they did that? I observed what looked to be brown human hair. Let's don't stop there. Take a listen to Detective Hermosillo on our cut 49. The ME grabbed a small sharp instrument and cut down the middle of the black plastic.

And what did you observe? I observed a small child in red pajamas, red pajama shirt, red pajama pants, black socks that had the word sketchers in orange across the toes. I also observed a light and blue blanket that had been placed on top of him. Okay. Detective, were there, um, when you observed what you perceived to be a child, was there anything that drew your attention? Yes. Can you describe for the court what drew your attention? The amount of duct tape that was covering the body. That's JJ.

We were hearing about him in his pajamas and his socks. But what about Tylee, the teen girl? Take a listen to our cut 48, Detective Hermosillo. While you were in that area, did you have a chance to further observe ERT, excavate that area you referred to as the Pet Sematary? Yes. Okay. What did you observe? area they had already dug down and located what would appear to be a mass of burnt flesh

and charred bone. That's what's left of their teen girl. Burnt flesh and charred bone. And according to the state, they did that. Now, let me go back to Nate Eaton, our star from eastidahonews.com. Nate, one of the perps is in Fremont County Jail. One is in Madison County Jail. Is it correct that today Lori Vallow had hot cereal with butter and sugar? That sounds like cream of wheat or oatmeal.

Baked ham, turkey ham, pancake bake with syrup, whipped margarine, and fortified drink plus fruit. Is that right? That sounds about right. I don't know the specific menu today. I'm reading it. Trust me. I do trust you. What I do know is that the jail that Lori is in, it has the best jail food in the state.

They have a full-service kitchen. They have a chef. They do homemade bread, fresh fruit. Stop. You mean like Oprah? They have a chef? I don't think it's as good as Oprah's chef, but they do have a chef. Do you have a chef? I don't have a chef. I don't have a chef.

And I'm hearing about Tylee, who is nothing but tissue and charred bones. And she is sitting at a table having a meal prepared by a chef. Don't they also have fresh baked bread every day? They do. The meals are so good at this jail that the staff often go down and eat lunch.

And then let's talk about Daybell, that POC. Fruit juice, high-fiber Ralston, chicken sausage, biscuits with gravy, fresh fruit sugar substitute, milk, coffee, PB&J. He gets all that for breakfast. Am I hearing biscuits with sausage and gravy? I had a cup of tea with cashew milk in it and he's got biscuits with sausage and gravy. How is this happen? Am I in bizizarro Land? Do you know what that is? My son was obsessed with, I guess it was Superman. Could have been Batman. Who would go to another world and fight his nemesis

Bizarro. Who lived in Bizarro Land and everything was bass-ackwards and upside down. Why is he getting chicken, sausage, and gravy and biscuits? What did you have? I haven't had anything you have i haven't had anything yet we haven't had anything why is this happening and that's a great question nancy i know that the

the uh there have been lawsuits over the years about inmates being fed properly nutritional standards whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa wait wait what nutritional standards you know are they claiming that there's not enough vitamin C in the chicken and biscuit? That could be a claim. I don't know the specifics in the past, but these gels have to have certain standards of what they feed the inmates, make sure they're fed X amount of times per day. And Lori definitely is well taken care of. She can have good food. And I have heard from reliable sources that she has complimented how good the food is at the facility and that it's much better there compared to the state hospital where she was. Okay, stop.

You're actually making my head hurt. Lori Vallow has a chef who makes her fresh baked bread. And I'm hearing about the remnants of Tylee's body, charred bones and fat tissue, just buried in a pet cemetery. You know what?

I pray that Cheryl O'Point is right and that this DNA can be replicated, regenerated, so we get a positive result. We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.