Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Cult Mom Lori Vallow: 'I DIDN'T MURDER MY CHILDREN, SEE MY ALIBI'

Episode Date: March 23, 2023

Cult mom Lori Vallow has pled not guilty to charges that she killed two of her children, JJ and Tylee. Now, Vallow says she can prove it. She has an alibi. Lori Vallow says that her 7-year-old and her 16-year-old were killed while they were at her late brother’s apartment.  Vallow's trial is set to get underway on April 3, 2023. The judge separated the trials of Lori Vallow and her husband Charles Daybell, as Daybell did not file for a speedy trial.   Vallow's alibi notice, filed with the court,  says she was in her own Rexburg apartment when Tylee and JJ died at the apartment where her brother, Alex Cox lived.     And in late-breaking news, the death penalty has been taken off the table in Vallow's case.  Joining Nancy Grace today: David Leroy - Attorney at Law (Boise, ID), Former Idaho Attorney General; Former Idaho Lieutenant Governor, & Former Prosecutor (Ada County); Facebook: BoiseCriminalDefense  Caryn Stark - Psychologist; Twitter: @carnpsych Rich Robertson - Arizona-based Private Investigator for Brandon Boudreaux and Larry & Kay Woodcock; Owner of R3 Investigations   Dr. Michelle DuPre - Former Forensic Pathologist, Medical Examiner, and Detective: Lexington County Sheriff's Department; Author: "Homicide Investigation Field Guide" & "Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide;" Forensic Consultant Nate Eaton - News Director; Twitter: @NateNewsNow, Instagram: @n.eaton  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Cult mom Lori Vallow and her new husband, the prophet, and for those of you that can't see me, I'm definitely using air quotas on that. The husband prophet, Chad Daybell, are furiously fighting right now in a court of law against the death penalty. There is a bill sitting on the governor's desk right now to reinstitute, I believe it is, the firing squad. So I guess they are fighting tooth and claw to get the death penalty thrown out in the case. The case involving the murders of Lori Vallow's two children.

And let's see, there's so many dead bodies, I have to think about it for a moment. Then you've got Tammy Daybell, who just turns up up dead she was healthy as a horse running marathons but oh yes I guess we should have seen it coming because her prophet husband had a premonition that he she would be dead soon I guess that's why he went ahead and agreed to get a new outfit for his wedding to cult mom Lori Vallow. Then you have the specter of cult mom Lori Vallow's dead brother, her so-called avenging angel. What really happened to him? And yes, there is a husband floating around in the background. He's dead. He was shot dead in front of Lori Vallow. How do I know who was holding the gun? Oh, yes, and there's another dead body.

That would be of an earlier husband, Joseph Ryan. His body was largely decomposing before he was found, so we're not really exactly sure what happened to him. All that said, I'm Nancy Grace, and this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. You may need to sit down for this or possibly lay down. Take a listen to our friends at KTVB. New details on the case of Lori Vallow Daybell and her husband, Chad Daybell. Her attorneys filed several new documents

in Fremont County this week, including one with information about where she says she was when her children died. Attorneys for Lori Vallow Daybell filed several new documents in Fremont County, including one that gives an alibi for where Lori was when the murders happened. Vallow Daybell is charged with first-degree murder, conspiracy to commit murder, and grand theft in the deaths of her children, J.J. Vallow and Tylee Ryan. She's also charged in connection with the death of her fourth husband,

Charles Vallow, and in the death of Tammy Daybell. Tammy was Chad Daybell's wife. She died just weeks before he married Lori. Oh, wow. That's convenient how that whole thing worked out. If I turn up dead in my bed and my husband rushes out and remarries, Jackie, get him prosecuted, okay? What if I'm the bride?

Well, if you're the bride, well, okay. I'll come back from the dead and haunt both of you. But what did I just hear? Alibi? Call Mom Lori Vallow has an alibi for the time in the murder? Really? I can't wait to hear this. Take a listen to our friends at KTVB. Lori Vallow Daybell's attorneys filed a notice of alibi claim. In that document, they say Vallow Daybell was in her Rexburg apartment when JJ and Tylee died. They were last seen in September of 2019. Their remains were found in June of 2020, buried on Chad Daybell's Idaho property. It's still unclear when and how they

actually died. New documents now claim the children died inside her brother, Alex Cox's nearby apartment in Rexburg. It also claims Vala was in Hawaii in October of 2019 with her niece, Melanie Boudreau, and a woman by the name of Audrey Baratiro, when Jad's wife, Tammy, died in their home in Salem, Idaho. Okay, there's the alibis. Joining me in All-Star Panel to make sense of the evidence we are just learning. But first, I want to go out to special guest Nate Eaton, the news director, eastidahonews.com. You can find him on Twitter at Nate News Now on Insta at Nate.Eaton. Nate Eaton, thank you for being with us. The first time I believe I ever saw you, it was your hand. And you had a recorder and you were running along and keeping up with cult mom Lori Vallow in Hawaii,

asking her questions about her children. You ferreted her out across the ocean. You find her and you hound her with questions as you should have because they were dead they were dead and you were on the trail okay alibi so is this am i understanding that the alibi is oh i was in apartment 4b when they my children were killed in apartment 4D. That's the alibi? Yeah, pretty much. They lived at the same apartment complex. And she's saying, I was in my apartment.

The kids were at Alex's apartment, who, by the way, is dead, her brother. And she says when Tammy died, she was in Hawaii. So that's her alibi. Nate Eaton, you're burying the lead. And you are a veteran news guy. She was in Hawaii getting ready for her wedding, right? To Tammy Daybell's husband. Well, correct. Yeah.

And Chad, that husband, was at the house in Idaho when Tammy died. So why was Lori Vallow in Hawaii, may I ask? Well, she says she was there with a friend. We don't know. So what we do know is that the alibi, days after this was filed, Nancy, and said that sufficient evidence exists that will show Lori and her boyfriend

intended for those kids and her boyfriend's wife to die, and that they affirmatively acted to make those deaths happen. You know, Nate, I hardly even know where to start. I'm always drawn back to their wacky cult beliefs. Now, I understand that their cult beliefs, he was the prophet, included only a certain number of people getting to go to heaven. Was it like 114,000 or 140,000? Is that right? One of those numbers?

There was 144,000 and that Lori and Chad would lead in the second coming of Jesus Christ. Okay, I try not to throw his name around if I don't have to. But that said, that was a reprimand to you, Nate Eaton. But Jackie, I guess you and I are out.

Yeah. Yeah, because if there's only 144,000 people that are going to make it into heaven from the beginning of time, okay, I'll speak for myself. I'm out. No matter how hard I try, I'm not going to make that cut. But not only that, they also believe that people became zombies. And I'm not kidding. And that once they became zombies, the only way that you could save their immortal soul is to kill their earthly body, including her children. Is that right, Nate? Yeah, they believe that both of the children became possessed by these zombies.

And remember, Charles Vallow, her fourth husband, also became possessed by a zombie called Ned Schneider. She was telling people that Charles is no longer Charles. He's now a zombie called ned schneider she was telling people this that charles is no longer charles he's now a zombie she said jj became a zombie told her close friends because he was climbing up on the counters and he knocked down a picture of jesus christ from the fridge and that because of that she said he was a zombie and needed to be taken care of okay Okay, before I go prancing down the garden path of their crazy beliefs, do they title themselves as FDLS? No, this would be completely separate. They're not FLDS. They're not into polygamy as far as we know. Okay, wait, did they claim they were FLDS? No, no, they did not. Because I bet they are spinning on their ear to be even remotely connected to Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell.

Yeah, they said that they call themselves the Church of the Firstborn. Okay, what does that mean? Does this have something to do with the Passover, where the firstborn of every family, the son, was killed? No, I honestly don't know all of the deep religious beliefs, Nancy, but if you read through Chad Daybell's books, which I'm sure you want to do. Do I have to? There's multiple writings that he believed he truly was chosen. Yeah, he's chosen for a grand jury indictment. That's what he was chosen for.

Okay, guys, you're hearing Nate Eaton, the news director, EastIdahoNews.com. The trial is coming up. First, Nate, who is the skunk that filed a speedy? Lori refuses to waive her right to a speedy trial. She wants to go before a jury. She believes she will be walking out of the courthouse a free woman in just a few weeks. Chad has waived his right to a speedy trial. Wisely.

The judge has severed the cases. That's fairly new. These two are going to be held together before a jury. Nate Eaton, did I not tell you the cases would be severed? You called it. You called it. I mean, you know, but I can't take a lot of credit for it. I can put the credit to the U.S. Supreme Court with me, David Leroy, attorney at law in Idaho, former Idaho attorney general, former Idaho lieutenant government, former prosecutor.

You can find him at dleroy.com. David, thank you for being with us. I mean, it's the law. Nobody can really fight with it. If there are two co-defendants and they're both going to face the death penalty, and if anywhere in the mix there is an interlocking statement, in other words, she says he did it and he says she did it, then you really need to sever that because it's a Sixth Amendment issue.

Because if I say Jackie did it and Jackie says Nancy did it, but what if I don't take the stand and she is claiming I said X, Y, and Z, no one will have a right to cross-examine me, which is a right guaranteed under the Constitution. So when you have interlocking statements like that, the best thing to do is sever the cases and try them separately. It's law as old as the hills, Leroy. Absolutely right, Nancy, and well said. On the other hand, we've always had a push-pull in this case, too, in that Chad's lawyer has consistently said that he's not ready for trial

and Leroy's people have wished to go forward fairly swiftly. So that also was an additional pressure on the judge in severing these cases. Yet now, as we've just had an information dump of some three to five thousand pages of material and hours of tape, Lori's lawyers are having a hearing on a motion in limine to preclude the use of certain evidence to the prosecutor because it's late discovered. Whoa, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Nate, when's the trial date? Lori goes to trial April 3rd.

When do they get the information? They received it just here in the last few days. Well, like when? I believe the motion in limine was filed just four or five days ago. When was the data dumped? Around the 13th or 14th of this month. Oh, okay. Well, you know what? That's time under the statute. If the trial is April the 3rd, when I would try felonies, of i would get the information the all the information to the defense as soon as i could do it but under the statute i think it's two weeks it may vary

in other other jurisdictions but 13th if they got the information on the 13th by the 27th it's time for trial hi guys n Nancy Grace here. Our friends and partners at Fox Nation have an exclusive new movie out right now, Murder for Sale. In this new original movie, real estate agent Violet Becker is devastated when her best friend and fellow real estate agent dies at an open house. Violet is suspicious about the circumstances of the death and sets out to investigate. She soon finds herself in unfamiliar territory as she uncovers shocking truths about her friend's life and mysterious death. Starring Caitlin Clark, Julia Benson, and Matt Hamilton, Murder for Sale is available exclusively on Fox Nation.

Fox Nation subscribers also have access to all kinds of exclusive programming, including the video simulcast of Crime Stories, our team's special investigations, original movies like Murder for Sale, and so much more. Sign up for Fox Nation to watch. Just go to foxnation.com don't wait catch this movie it's awesome go to foxnation.com now to watch Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. And when I say the state has to hand over information, I mean any new witnesses, in some jurisdictions witness statements.

If it's a DP, death penalty, yes, witness statements. Scientific evidence, such as anything the crime lab analyzed, if there is any other information that could be exculpatory under Brady v. Maryland, in other words, that might prove the innocence of the defendants, you have to hand that over. But I imagine the state handed this over just in the deadline. So if they want a delay, they lose their right to a speedy trial. Agree, disagree, David Leroy. There was an argument here about whether they made the deadline. The judge said before February 27th, they state disclosed at 4 o'clock in the afternoon on the 27th. So that's part of the argument.

Oh, excuse me. When's the end of the business day at the courthouse? Is it not 5 o'clock? Well, whether you're making a five o'clock hearing or five o'clock cutoff date is important, but the operative words here were the judge said before February 27th, and they file it on the February 27th. That's the argument. But the real issue is the volume of this material. The defense is alleging that 4,933 pages of material, 48 audio files containing 30 hours of interview is just too much even that late in the discovery cycle. Yeah, cry, cry, cry.

They got it on time. They're the ones that want the speedy trial and they will get it. You know, Oscar Wilde said it best. Be careful what you ask, my dear, for you will surely get it. Guys, that's not all that's happening. I alluded to this earlier,

a desperate tooth and claw fight to get the death penalty off the table. Take a listen to our friends at KTVB. Vallow's attorneys are also asking the judge to take the death penalty off the table. They say Vallow did not kill or conspire to kill her children, J.J. and Tylee, or Tammy Daybell. Therefore, they say she should not be eligible for the death penalty. Vallow's attorneys have also filed a motion to not raise a mental health defense in her trial. The motion also says although still suffering from a mental illness, the defendant is taking an active role in her defense.

She's not authorized her attorneys to proceed with a mental health defense in the guilt phase portion of the trial. Nate Eaton in Idaho, is there an insanity or mental health defense? There is not. There is not an insanity defense. If you're found incompetent for trial, which that's happened twice now with Lori, your case just gets put on hold. But the judge has deemed her competent. Medical professionals have said she's competent. So mental illness will not be brought into the main portion of the trial. Now, her attorneys have said when it gets into if she is found guilty during the death penalty sentencing phase, they will bring in mental health experts to talk about her, her mental conditions, her mental health.

As mitigation in sentencing. Okay, guys, you know what? Speaking of all of this, seems like some things never end. Take a listen to Shirah Matsuzua. Attorneys for both Lori and Chad are asking the judge to allow the couple and their attorneys to meet in private. They're asking for them to be able to talk in person and on the phone about their options. However, they're asking that those conversations not be recorded or used as evidence. Nate Eaton, why don't these two just get a room and be done with it?

Sounds like Lori Vallow is itching to see her, what is it, fourth husband? Not judging. The prophet, Chad Daybell. And he's like, eh, meh, okay, meh, not really. He doesn't seem like he wants to get with her. Yeah, that's the interesting thing. It's actually her fifth husband nancy oh sorry if these two were really you know i don't know in love would you not want to be tried with your spouse would you not want to go forth and have

the trial they could never see each other again if she's found guilty and goes away for life and then his trial will be later this year or early next year. She's not going to show up there. So she clearly wants to move forward with her trial. He's asking for more time and he will get that time. To Rich Robertson joining us, Arizona-based private investigator for Brandon Bordeaux, Boudreaux and Larry and Kay Woodcock, the grandparents of Tylee and JJ, owner of R3 Investigations. You can find them at R3, the letter R, the number 3investigations.com. Now, when I say the grandparents to Tylee and JJ, it's really grandparents to JJ. Is that right, Rich Robertson? Yeah, that's correct. You know, it's a complicated family tree, but Kay is Charles Vallow's brother.

But because Charles adopted JJ from a, who was the biological son of a sibling, Kay also became the grandparent. Gotcha. So JJ is an adopted child of Valet. Charles and Marie. Yep. Okay. Did Lori Valet also adopt him? Correct.

Yes. Okay. When you hear all of the discussion regarding Lori Valet being insane, I would say crazy, more crazy like a fox. Well, you know, obviously from the outside, is it crazy or is it manipulative? You know, it appears she was going down a rabbit hole. Are these, is this insanity or deeply held religious beliefs? How, you know, where's the line? And all of us have been sitting around for several years trying to find some rational

explanation for these irrational acts. I don't know that we'll ever have a clear answer about that. You know, it's interesting. Karen Stark joining me, a renowned psychologist joining us out of Manhattan. You can find her at karenstark.com. Karen with a C. Karen, every time a mother kills their child, much less two of them, the public, people in general say she's crazy because what mother would kill their child? That is absolutely not true. Think top mom, Casey Anthony. She's not crazy. I'll tell you, Nancy, matricide is so hard for people to accept.

When a mother kills a child, it goes against all the natural instincts. I think about you and the twins and that deep connection that you have with your children. And I really believe that that's what's behind everybody thinking that she must have been crazy. But it isn't true. I mean, there's too much that was intentional. She shows that she knows the difference between right and wrong and all the talk, the cold talk. I don't really buy it.

I think this woman knew exactly what she was doing. How convenient to get rid of a husband and get rid of the person who killed him and then get rid of her children and just start all over again. You know what? We're getting all involved in the minutia of the legal maneuverings and what's happening.

It's a little bit of inside baseball. Let's bring it all home, okay? I'm going out of order, Jack. Let's go to cut 48. This is what this trial is all about. While you were in that area, did you have a chance to further observe ERT excavate that area you referred to as the Pet Sematary? Yes. Okay. What did you observe? I had been away from that area, but when I returned to that area,

they had already dug down and located what would appear to be a mass of burnt flesh and charred bone. That's all that was left of Tylee, the beautiful teen girl. A mass of burnt flesh and charred bone. To you, Nate Eaton, let's be more specific. While apparently J.J. was handled a little more reverently after his murder. This little boy, just seven years old, his sister Tylee was treated in the worst way.

Describe the condition of her body. Unfortunately, there wasn't much of her body left. It was burned. There were charred remains. The investigators were on the ground with tools sifting through dirt looking for any sign of her. And they found a few pieces of flesh and a couple of bones, and that was it. How would that happen, though? I don't get it. Joining me, Dr. Michelle Dupree, forensic pathologist, medical examiner, and lucky for me, former detective and author of the Homicide Investigation Field Guide, as well as Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide, which makes her perfect for today.

You can find her at dmichelledupreemd.com. Dr. Dupree, what does that mean, a mass of burnt flesh and charred bone? Nancy, it means that there was a very hot fire, and it means that there is not very much left of this person. It probably had some incendiary substance in order to get it that hot and basically to destroy all signs of this person. Isn't it true, Nate Eaton, that some of her remains were in a bucket? Yeah, the investigators were transported her that way and there was a bucket out there at the scene

and you may have recalled that we talked about the neighbor who saw a bonfire burning out there, a big bonfire for days. And that, you know, that's not too abnormal for our part of the country. It was fall. So people burn leaves. They burn debris. And so this neighbor didn't think much of it until, you know, the tragic discovery of these bodies. You're giving me a horrible flashback of the Stephen Avery case who became a media darling with the dropping of a special, I hate to even call it an investigation, making a murderer.

The case of Teresa Hallback, a young photographer who was last known to be at Stephen Avery's home at his request to take photos of an automobile to go in the Auto Trader magazine. He stirred a bonfire in his backyard for days. Friends and relatives saw him doing it. The studs off her Daisy Fuentes jeans were found there. Most of her body burned beyond recognition. Just in this case, charred bones and a bucket of flesh. A bucket of flesh. A bucket of flesh.

That is what is left of Tylee. And Chad Daybell's backyard. A bucket of flesh. That is what is left of Tylee. And Chad Daybell's backyard. But what about little JJ? What about him? Listen to this. The ME grabbed a small, sharp instrument and cut down the middle of the black plastic. Okay. And what did you observe? I observed a small child in red

pajamas, red pajama shirt, red pajama pants, black socks that had the word Skechers in orange across the toes. I also observed a light and blue blanket that had been placed on top of him. Okay. Detective, were there, when you observed what you perceived to be a child, was there anything that drew your attention? Yes. Can you describe

for the court what drew your attention? The amount of duct tape that was covering the body. Isn't it true, Nate Eaton, that according to cult mom Lori Vallow, she's admitting to J.J. being in her apartment

the night that he's murdered, wearing red pajamas and black socks. And she claims her brother, Alex Cox, took him out of her apartment. Isn't that true? He's wearing the same exact thing he's wearing when his body's found? Yeah, a friend who was there with Lori

told investigators that J.J. was in their apartment that night, just hours before police believe he died, that he was in red pajamas and that Alex carried him out of the house. Away from cult mom Lori Vallow. And how long was it until he was reported missing? That was in September. He was not reported missing when his grandparents called the police. The investigation began in December. So that was three months.

But police believe that it was that that within that 24 hour time period when they walked when Alex walked out of the apartment, that he was then killed. We still don't know how he was killed, but he was killed and then taken over to Chad Daybell's property and buried. And we know that Alex was there because cell phone data, his phone was pinging there on the property at that time. And Nancy, that's the same day that Chad Daybell sent that text to his wife who was at work saying, I saw a raccoon in the yard in the middle of the day. Don had to bury him in the pet cemetery. You mean the nocturnal creature raccoon was in the yard in the middle of the day? Correct. Okay, well, there's more about the discovery of little J.J. Vallow's body. Take a listen to Detective Ray Hermosillo.

They removed some soil, and there was a, once what i can best describe as a black plastic bag with a a round object protruding through the dirt okay uh what did you observe the er team do after you saw that they dug a little bit more around the round round, which appeared to me to be the crown of a head protruding through the dirt. They used a small, sharp instrument to cut through the black plastic. There was a white plastic underneath the black plastic, and they also used the white instrument to cut through the white plastic. Okay, and what did you observe when they did that? I observed what looked to be brown human hair.

It was JJ's head. That's what they're talking about. And isn't it true, Nate Eaton, that during this time when authorities, investigators were there digging up the children's bodies on Chad Daybell's property in his so-called pet cemetery that Lori Vallow called him. They had a phone call. I don't know who called who. And the first question was, did they find anything? Not like, what, the cops are?

I mean, if the cops came into our house and I called my husband, he would say, why are the cops there? Well, what's happening? But instead, the question was did they find anything yeah Lori was in jail Chad made contact with her and that call has been released and he sounds quite concerned and said the police are at the house and she responds I don't remember the exact wording something like in the house or in the yard? Something along those lines. And he said they're in the yard. And he sounds somewhat upbeat.

He sounds very concerned. That was the last call they had with each other because minutes later, Pat Daybell was put in handcuffs and taken to jail. Rich Robertson is with us, Arizona-based private investigator for Brandon Boudreau and Larry and Kay Woodcock from our three investigations. Boudreau is related to cult mom Lori Vallow by marriage. He's married to one of Vallow's, I think, niece. Rich Robertson, what, if anything, have you learned about Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell during your investigations? Well, I got involved in this thing shortly after, well, the fall of 2019.

And as things were starting to develop, Charles, of course, was shot to death in July of 2019. And there was a drive-by shooting that targeted Brandon Boudreaux in October. And so right around that time, we now know is when both of the children apparently were killed. So everything was kind of happening at that point. with Brandon, he was telling me wild stories about Lori Vallow and her relationship with Chad Daybell and the group in Idaho that was kind of the Students' Day group, how this had been evolving over time, how his wife got sucked into it by her aunt Lori.

So there was a lot of activity occurring in that 2019 time period and leading up to it. All of the talk of end times and chosen and zombies and all that stuff was definitely at a peak right around then. Guys, I want you to take a listen to our cut 13D, as in Delta. Our friends at KTVB. September 22nd, the last time J.J. Vallow was seen. Police interviewed Melanie Gibb and her boyfriend David Warwick,

who were visiting Lori that weekend. They told police Lori said J.J. had turned into a zombie. The next morning, September 23rd, between 8 and 9 a.m., Warwick didn't see JJ and asked where he was. Borey stated he was acting out, so, quote, Alex had come and taken JJ. GPS data once again puts Alex on Chad's property that day from 9.55 a.m. until 10.12 a.m., paying near the pond.

All this evidence started coming to light around the first part of June 2020. Just days later, June 9th, police searched Chad's property. They focused on sites corresponding to the GPS from Alex's phone and the strange text to Tammy, JJ and Tiley's bodies were found in those areas near the pond and fire pit.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Straight back out to veteran trial lawyer David Leroy, attorney at law in Idaho. David, that is not a defense. It's not like self-defense or accident, which are both complete defenses under the law. If they can be proven in court, he's a zombie. So I had to kill him. That's not going to work. Well, that certainly won't fly. And I am presuming that Lori will know nothing about nothing here.

She may have innocently been involved in some communications, but her alibi defense, as weak as it is, will probably be presented over and over and over. But I mean, the hard reality is that even if you choose to believe what she's saying, you would have to believe that J.J. acted out and accidentally knocked over a photograph

of Christ, that she declared he's a zombie, those are her words to two witnesses, and that she had her brother, her so-called by her own words, avenging angel, take J.J., seven years old, away. And what? She never saw him again? Months pass and she never reports him missing?

And then calls her new prophet husband on the phone and says, hey, are they searching in the yard or the house? Have they found anything? Well, that silence that occurred between September and December is extremely eloquent and will mean quite a bit to a jury. That same silence that drove Nate Eaton to Hawaii with his recorder in Tammy's face really is what the case is all about in many respects. I mean, for Pete's sake, Karen Stark, if the children don't come to the car at 3.15, I think that they've obviously been kidnapped for Pete's sake and start trying to call them on their cell phones.

Months go by and she hasn't seen her child and now she wants me to believe that she had nothing to do with the child's murder the night he was taken from her home that's her best case story Karen Stark and Nancy we don't we know I mean this just doesn't make sense really your child is missing for that long is he visiting with the zombies I mean that is not a logical thing and it's not emotional. You want to know where your children are. And I don't buy for a second that she believed he was safe with her brother or she absolutely knew that something was wrong and knew where the burials were as well.

Dr. Michelle Dupree, jumping off what Karen Stark just said, I want to talk to you. This became so critical, as you and I said, in hour one, hour one after Maggie and Paul Murdoch were found murdered. We said we need to establish time of death, because that is going to be the entire case, the time of death. Could you do it through coagulated blood? Could you do it through extrinsic evidence such as cell phone data? And that's how it was done, through a cell phone video that day. So medical examiners like yourself look not only at the body but at extrinsic evidence such as the last post on social, the last text, the last video, the last picture, the last group chat.

So here, Dr. Michelle Dupree, based on the bodies themselves, of course, we'll have to talk about just JJ since Tylee's body has been disseminated and burned into a bucket of fat. Dr. Dupree, how can we or can we date the time of death? All of those things that you were saying, Nancy, we have to estimate the time of death. And it depends on so many different variables. But certainly, we look at the surroundings of where the body is found to see if there are anything that we call scene markers. You know, what would be the range of time? As far as pinpointing it to an exact date, an exact hour, that may be impossible, certainly as time passes, but we can get a very good estimate.

And as you said, finding that time is so important because that places that child with a particular person or in a particular place at that time of death. Hey, Nate Eaton questioned you. Nate Eaton on the story from the beginning, news director at EastIdahoNews.com. The cell phone pings of Lori Vallow's brother, Alex Cox. Do they follow him the night that JJ is taken out of the apartment? Yeah, they do. And what's interesting is that it shows that he was in Lori's apartment late, and then he was in his apartment, and then hours later he was at Chad's and there was no other history as far as investigators could find that showed him at Lori's apartment

that late or that showed him out at Chad Daybell's property. They even know that after he spent several hours at Chad Daybell's property, he went to a taco restaurant. He went and got tacos and then went to his house. So they're able to track his movements during that time. And what a coincidence. Around this time span, Chad Daybell's wife, Tammy, just dies in her sleep. Take a listen to our code 143 Fox 13. September 23rd. This is the last time anyone reported seeing the children, JJ and Tylee, at school in Rexburg, Idaho. But nobody reported them missing until about two months later. Let's talk about Chad Daybell's wife, Tammy. Her dad tells me she was alive and well on October 4th. She drove down

from Rexburg to visit her parents in Springville, Utah. But two weeks later, on October 19th, the parents got a call from Chad saying Tammy went to bed coughing and never woke up. At the time, doctors said she died from natural causes at the age of 49. Natural causes, what natural causes? That the only witness is her husband. And isn't it true, Nate Eaton, within two weeks of Tammy's death, Chad Daybell flies to Hawaii to marry Lori Vallow in an outfit that she purchased on her dead husband's credit card where she had been searching for beach wedding dresses. And lo and behold, two weeks after Tammy's death, they are having a beachside wedding service yeah not only did she purchase the clothing but the rings their wedding rings were looked for weeks before tammy was dead uh early october she bought those same rings on charles vallow's amazon account and it was family members of charles vallow who ultimately got a hold of his computer and logged in and saw

that these rings had been purchased. And then in those wedding photos, months later, Chad and Lori are wearing those same wedding rings. No shame, no shame at all. So to you, Rich Robertson, a private investigator who has somehow gotten dragged into this whole cult mom Lori Vallow, prophet Chad Daybell saga. I really don't believe in coincidences when it comes to criminal law and murder, much less quadruple murder. So the children go missing. They're dead.

They're buried out of Chad Daybell's property. And then shortly thereafter, Tammy Daybell, quote, dies in her sleep. Two weeks later, the two of them are married. That's a neatly planned series of events, would you say? Those are just some of the highlights because there are certainly other things that were going on. In early August, even a month or so before the kids disappeared, Lori had placed JJ's service dog, Bailey,

a little golden doodle that he was very attached to, posted that dog for sale. That was in early August, and a month or so after Charles' death. So there's a variety of these kind of checkpoints along the way. Lori Valley places JJ's dog for sale in August. Service dog. These purchases on the Amazon account, the reason that Kay Woodcock was able to monitor that, and I was working with her on this, is that Charles Vallow was very worried about

his own personal safety and had given his sister all of his passwords and logins for his various accounts before he died. He'd even changed an insurance policy to make his sister Kay the beneficiary so that she could care for JJ. And so he was very worried about his own personal safety for months leading up to this and that was certainly prescient and it came true. So these things were happening. We were watching as it was happening that some of these things on the Amazon account,

some of these purchases were going to Rexburg but then these addresses started showing up in hawaii and that's how i think that uh ultimately when law enforcement got involved we were able to direct them pretty quickly to this address in hawaii because some of the amazon purchases were being shipped their sandals the wedding dress the wedding dress. And as Nate said, the wedding rings, I believe it was 10 days or so before Tammy died. When she made that purchase, she purchased these green amethyst rings. She purchased two of them, a man's ring and a woman's ring. But then she returned the man's ring to get a different size and have that shipped to Hawaii.

You know, you're just a fountain of information. Hey, Jackie thought of two other things. One, that Lori Vallow placed the children's items, all their belongings in storage, getting ready for the trip to Hawaii. Was that before or after their deaths, Nate Aiden? That was after their deaths. While she was still looking for them? That was in early October. Police believe that J.J. died early September,

or entirely early September, J.J. mid-September. And then we have the video that showed she visited the storage unit several times, sometimes with Chad. There's even the one video where he reached over and appears to you know touch her butt as they're walking out of the unit yeah he did he patted it we all saw it on the video that's jackie's second entry so let me ask you this nate eaton we were hearing from

your sister station about the trip that tammy daybell took to visit her relatives isn't it true that she took this trip at Chad Daybell's urging because he had a premonition that she was going to die in a car crash or something like that? Yeah, she didn't know that at the time. He was encouraging her to go see her family, even said that a dead relative had appeared to him and said, Tammy needs to go see her parents and her siblings.

And Tammy, it's quite a drive, you know, five to six hour drive. She rarely did it alone. But he really encouraged her to go see the parents. And he had apparently told others that she was going to die in a car crash. Well, she made the trip, spent one night, turned around and came home, didn't die in the crash. And we now later learned that Chad was maybe hoping she would die on that trip or something. But when she didn't, of course, a week later, she was dead. Okay, hold on just a moment. You know, David Leroy, I guess I also need a psychologist on this.

I'm always suspicious when people have premonitions and then they come true, including a death. Like Scott Peterson told his mistress, Amber Fry, that this Christmas would be his first as a widow after losing his wife. And guess what? She died on Christmas Eve because he killed her. And then we can't forget the dream that O.J. Simpson had about the death of his beautiful wife, long-suffering Nicole Brown. You know, the dreams, the premonitions.

And now we've got Chad Daybell, the prophet, having a premonition his wife would die. And whoops, there she goes, off into the sunset. What about it, Leroy? Oh, I'm not sure how much of that will make it into evidence. Oh, I guarantee you the premonition is going to come into evidence. The musings of that nature are going to be fairly collateral, but obviously something suspicious and something to talk about. I take it you've tried a lot of murder cases, haven't you, Leroy?

Sure, and Chad's a prophet. I tell you what, a jury is going to love to hear that Chad Daybell had a premonition that Tammy was going to die, and then amazingly, she did. Karen Stark, the premonitions, the dreams, what do you make of that? I'm not saying they don't happen but when your wife then dies next to you in bed that casts a little pale pall on the premonition. That's very suspicious. I mean I really love analyzing people's dreams. It's fascinating. Especially when they're in conjunction with a murder case, Karen Stark. Exactly. When it's that kind of a premonition, that's highly suspect. Oh, I've got to ask one more question. Who knows the answer to this? I'm guessing

Leroy or Nate Eaton. Is it true there's a bill on the governor's desk in Idaho to reinstate the firing squad? We would not be reinstating it here in Idaho. Excusestate the firing squad. But we would not be reinstating it here in Idaho. Excuse me. Correction. Adopting the firing squad. So is it true that there is a bill asking for the death by firing squad versus lethal injection? Is that true?

Yes. A bill started in our House of Representatives to replace lethal injection with the firing squad. It passed the House. It passed the Senate. House of Representatives to replace lethal injection with the firing squad. It passed the House, it passed the Senate. It's sitting on the governor's desk for possible signature in the next few days. Okay. Well, that's going to hurt.

Hey, Nancy, we have some breaking news here as we've been talking. Judge Boyce has just struck down the death penalty in Lori's case. Again, he has taken death penalty off the table and granted the motion by her defense attorneys. It's a long ruling, but basically he's saying that due to evidence being turned over so late, some discovery issues, the defense team would not have enough time to adequately go through all of this evidence as they work to preserve her life. That could, of course, present all sorts of issues on appeal. And there's much more to his ruling, but just big news here, death penalty off the table. She could still face and does still face life in prison without the possibility of parole if she's found guilty when this goes to trial in just a few days.

We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. as this unfolds. Goodbye, friend.