Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Cult Mom Lori Vallow on phone love chats while children's corpses dug up

Episode Date: August 12, 2020

Newly released phone calls between Lori Vallow and her husband have the couple discussing the FBI search at the Daybell farm the day that JJ and Tylee's bodies where found. The couple coo "I love you's" after mentioning that law enforcement is at the property. The phone calls were made public during Chad Daybell's hearing. Testimony was also given by detectives, describing the condition of the bodies when they were found.Joining Nancy Grace today: Joseph Marrone - Philadelphia, Criminal Defense Attorney  Dr. Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, Atlanta Ga. Donald Schweitzer - Former LA Detective, Criminal Defense, Former Prosecutor Jennifer Shen - Forensic Pathologist, Former San Diego Police Department Crime Lab Director Dave Mack - Investigative Reporter, CrimeOnline  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Now just released, the frantic phone call made between cult mom Lori Vallow and her brand new fourth or fifth husband, doomsday cult leader Chad Daybell. This as the feds and local authorities were approaching his farm to start digging. FYI, banner, if and when you go to jail, I mean, everybody needs to do a little probation, but if and when you go to jail, just know this. Your calls are recorded. We can hear everything. At some point, it all comes out.

And boy, this is a whopper. This and the latest developments in the case of cult mom Lori Vallow. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here. First of all, I want you to take a listen. We've obtained the actual recordings from the jail. Now, they're a little hard to hear, as you can understand behind jailhouse walls.

The recording quality is not like you're in a studio. There are people walking around. You're on a pay phone. Sometimes it's really hard to hear. But in this first sound I'm going to play for you, you're hearing this desperate phone call between cult mom Lori Vallow and her new husband, Chad Daybell. He is alerting her, quote, they are searching the property. The house right now?

Yes. So Mark means they'll be talking to you. Okay. Well, are they in the house? No, they're out in the property. Are they seizing stuff? Again? They're searching. They're searching on it, so... Okay.

Knowing what I'm listening to helps me a lot to hear that and understand what they're saying. He alerts Lori Vallow, they're here. She says, are they searching the house? And at that point, he says, are they searching the house? And at that point he says, they're searching the property. Now, when you hear the rest of this, it's really telling. But first of all, let me introduce my all-star panel joining me to break it down and put it back together again. First of all, newcomer to our ranks, but not a stranger to the courtroom. Joseph Marone, Philadelphia criminal defense attorney. You can find him at maronelaw.com.

That's Marone with an E. Dr. Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrist, joining me from the Atlanta jurisdiction. Donald Schweitzer, first-time guest, former L.A. detective. I love that part. Criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor, and you can find him at Schweitzer Law Partners.

Jennifer Shin, forensic pathologist, former San Diego Police Department crime lab director. Dave Mack, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter joining us. First of all, let me go to you, Donald Schweitzer, former L.A. detective, former prosecutor, now criminal defense attorney. You know what, Donald? Do you go by Donald or Don? Don. Don, have you ever advised one of your clients, let's just say a nasty divorce, to set up a wire, taped phone calls? I'm not asking who, but let me just rephrase that.

Have you ever known of one of your clients that taped phone calls? Yeah, people do it all the time. Unfortunately, as you know, Nancy, there's crimes that are related to that. And so, you know, we discourage people from doing that. We tell them flat out it's not going to come into evidence, at least so long as I'm representing it. Let me ask this, Don, is in your jurisdiction, is that one party consent? It is. Oh, I hate that. I absolutely hate that. I hate when it's two party consent. And what we mean by that is, say I want to take Jackie's phone calls, which you know, by the way, I am doing, I'm taping everybody, I'm even taping myself. In many jurisdictions, it requires two-party consent. I have to agree to

be taped, and she has to agree to be taped. In a lot of jurisdictions, it's one-party consent. In other words, I tape all my phone calls, and I happen to get you on the line, and that's okay. But those aren't the rules behind bars. To Joseph Marone, Philadelphia criminal defense attorney, Joseph, you heard what Don Schweitzer just said. Do you remember Top Mom, Casey Anthony's case where she killed her daughter, Kelly? I do. And those angry jailhouse conversations

she would have with her parents where she'd be nutting up on them as if they were the problem. And all of that was accessible through the Florida Sunshine Laws. They tape everything that you say on the phone, every video conference you have, everything except when you meet with your lawyers or you meet with your chaplain or priest. None of that's taped and none of that can be accessed. But Joseph Marone, in a lot of cases, there are recorders even within the jail cells or in the walls that people don't know about. And that's OK because you don't have a right to privacy. Explain.

Now, listen, when you're in custody of law enforcement, you give up, you know, you give up your valuable rights and you have no right to privacy, meaning anything you say is going to be privy to the government. And they're going to utilize that not only against you for any new crimes, but specifically against you for the case in chief. And a lot of times defendants, you know, they're contacting family members, friends, and they start saying a lot of incriminating facts along the way that the prosecutor gathers up and sometimes aids in his case and obviously this is what's happened here so you know it just gets worse and worse and the thing about top mom casey anthony she portrayed herself one way in court you know with the collar up to here and the long hair and the blah, the blah, and sitting there like a school library and a little sweater button up to here. Uh-uh.

No. N-O. Because when you saw her going crazy, angry, screaming, seething at her parents who were there to help her, you see the other side of top mom, Casey Anthony. And that's what we're seeing right here. For those of you just joining us, we're talking about cult mom Lori Vallow and her brand new husband, Chad Daybell, blabbing on the phone about the search that was going down at his farmhouse. As you probably already know, you legal eagles, the bodies of both two of Lori Vallow's children, JJ, seven years old,

tiling a teen girl found there on that property. Dr. Angela Arnold, psychiatrist, joining me out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Dr. Angie, this is something, I mean, I'm just a JD. You're the MD. Why do people let their, and I find myself doing it. If I'm in court or I'm on TV, I have a, you know, I'm more guarded. But if I'm even doing a radio interview on the phone, I mean, it all comes out. Why are people so less inhibited on the phone than they are in real life or in any other

circumstance? What is that? Well, you know, when you're on the telephone than they are in real life or in any other circumstance. What is that? Well, you know, when you're on the telephone, Nancy, people can't, and on the radio, people can't actually see you, can they? And I have a feeling that, first of all, this was such a disturbing phone call for her to receive in jail. The content of the phone call was so disturbing. And so she forgot because there wasn't, she didn't see anybody looking at her. And so it's all about that personal contact and whether you can actually see somebody or over the phone you feel like you're incognito, don't you? Yeah, you really do.

You feel hidden. You really do. And every inhibition, all your guard seems to be let down. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we have obtained recordings of cult mom Lori Vallow speaking to her brand new husband, Chad Daybell, a doomsday cult leader, on the phone. Now, there is no way in H-E-double-L, Chad Daybell does not know that the bodies of these two children are on his property. And these phone calls are very revealing. Jackie, let's play part two of the phone calls are very revealing Jackie let's play part two of the phone calls What do you want me to do? Pray.

What? What do you want me to do? Pray. What can I do for you? I'm doing pretty well. I would call Margo, maybe. Just talk with him. Okay, she says, what can I do for you? And he, blah, blah, blah.

And then says, just want to talk with you. Okay, you know, to you, Donald Schweitzer, former L.A. detective, former prosecutor, now defense attorney, I know that you have listened to a hundred taps, as have I. It's very hard. You get excited to get get a tap on a person you have to go through a lot of legal hoops you have to go to the judge very intrusive to get a phone tap on somebody but here you're in the jail so you have to go through all that but then when you hear it and I look at the

transcripts I'm like that's not right I'd have to go through every phone call and re-transcribe it myself, playing it back, playing it back, playing it back to catch every possible word. It's very hard to do, Donald Schweitzer. It really is. With my staff in my office, we go through great pains trying to get some of the detail. You know, if you don't get it, then it could cause a lot of confusion with respect to what people are saying. I listened to this recording, though, Nancy,

and even though it's kind of hard to hear at first blush, one thing that's real clear, and that is, is that Mr. Daybell seems to be very nervous. He seems to be worried that, you know, they're going to find something. And quite frankly, it looks like they're saying goodbye to each other. He's saying goodbye to Lori because he's talking about his defense attorney and things of that nature. To me, he seems like he's packing.

He knows that he's going to be headed for trouble real soon. And that's just clear. It doesn't really matter how clear the words are. You can just tell by the tone and some of the things that they're saying that this is doomsday for both of them. Yeah, he's at Creek without a paddle because there's two dead bodies in his yard, buried back there with a pit cemetery. To Joseph Marone, two things strike me.

Number one, they never mention the children. It's all about them and the ramifications of the search on his farm. They both know the bodies of the children are going to be found. And Tylee was horribly dismembered and burned. What do you hear about? It's just, ugh, it's terrible. They never mention them. It's all about me, me, me, me, me, me, me, number one. And number two, they sound like two lovesick high school sweethearts. What can I do for you? I just want to talk to you. Yeah,

it's all about him feeling glum. He's about to go to jail. Forget about dismembering Tylee and murdering JJ. Does that not bug you, Joseph Marron? I mean, how do you stand dealing with murderers and molesters and all that every day? I mean, it's like they're in their own little world. They don't even get what they've done. How do you shake some sense into your clients, Joseph? Listen, that's been the theme of this whole case from day one when they first approached both Lori and Chad. I mean, from day one, they denied their whereabouts. They lied. They were only concerned about themselves all the way through. And now in this circumstance, even through the phone conversation, they were more concerned about, you know, are they going to find something rather than the welfare of the children?

I mean, she clearly, you know, lied to the police about our own children. And the other thing, too, is when you look through the evidence, it doesn't faze her that her children are missing. I mean, she's clearly caught up in some type of some type of brainwashing or some type of cult through him. I mean, that's kind of been what the evidence connects. But the interesting thing in this case is, you know, circumstantially connecting the dots, showing that, you know, obviously,

that they knew where the bodies were, that they knew the children were missing. You just brought up a really good point, because Joseph Marone, if my husband called me and said, the cops are here, they're searching the house, I'd go, what? Why are they at the house? What's going on? That's right.

Or what did you do? They don't ever even ask, why are the cops at the house? Never. They never. Do you remember the show, was it Cops? Yeah, that was the name of the show. And there'd be a guy sitting there in his easy chair having a beer watching TV. And the cops come running through and he just keeps watching TV. It's like, hey guy, there's cops right in your house. Does that not bother you?

And in this case, they never say, I don't know why they're here. Why are they here? Because they know why the cops are there. Take a listen now to more of the jailhouse secretly recorded phone calls have you talked to him already so he knows what they're doing yeah it's okay call from somebody else i need to talk to. I love you so much. Okay, I love you.

Should I try to call you later? I don't know. I don't know. You can try, yeah. I'll answer if I can. Okay. I love you, and I'll answer if I can okay I love you talk soon okay baby

I love you love you you know what again to you Dr. Angela Arnold I'm just a J.D. I'm just a trial lawyer what in the H-E-L-L are they talking about Dr. Angela I love you I love you can I call you later as they're digging up my children's What in the H-E-double-L are they talking about, Dr. Angela?

I love you. I love you. Can I call you later? As they're digging up my children's dead bodies? Well, what world are they living in? Their own world. Their own world that they have created. Okay?

But what struck me when I listened to that phone call was the change in her voice when she talked to him. It became very childlike, didn't it? I heard that. I heard that, too, but I didn't know the right words to describe it. She became very childlike, and it's almost as if he has all of this control over her, and then she's trying to comfort him. But it was mainly that childlike feeling that her voice went into, okay? Because I've heard other things that Lori Ballo has said, and she can become very mean and nasty over the phone when she's confronted, can't she? But it's almost like his little girl, isn't she? But with, it's almost like his little girl, isn't she? I think that that phone call, there's going to be a lot about their relationship that can be, that can be picked through and found

out through just how they connected with each other. I really don't give a flying fig about their relationship. And if she jumps up in court and tries to say she was brainwashed over my cold, dead body. But, guys, wait a minute. Let's bring it all home. I want you to hear what was found on the scene. A melted green bucket with something damning inside of it. Roll it, Jackie. Were there any other identifying features of that in that area

or as part of that mass that drew your attention? Yes, there was. What was it? There was a melted green bucket that it appeared that the burnt flesh had been placed in. Under the bucket was a partial human skull. Okay. And were, was that bucket and the, what you've just described as a partial human skull, were those also, did you observe what was done with those?

Yes. What was done with those? Yes. What was done with those? They were also placed into a bag and placed in the coroner's vehicle. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Were there any other identifying features of that in that area or as part of that mass that drew your attention? Yes, there was. What was it? There was a melted green bucket that it appeared that the burnt flesh had been placed in. Under the bucket was a partial human skull. And was that bucket and what you've just described as a partial human skull, were those also,

did you observe what was done with those? Yes. What was done with those? Yes. What was done with those? They were also placed into a bag and placed in the coroner's vehicle. Did you hear that? We are talking about newly discovered evidence in the search for J.J. and Tylee, the children of cult mom Lori Vallow, dead. Did you know this? A melted green bucket.

That means they tried to burn it. Full of human burnt flesh. You think I take joy in saying that? I remember the first time I stood in front of a jury and I had to recount the facts surrounding a murder case and it was a bad one. I could hardly say it without tears coming to my eyes. I didn't want to cry in front of a jury. But think about it. This is a seven-year-old little boy and a teen girl, his sister, and cops find a melted green plastic bucket,

I assume plastic, full of burnt human flesh of these children and part of a human skull under the bucket. Just let that soak in for a moment every time I have one of a case about children I think about my own children burnt human flesh and a child's skull and these two are on the phone going, I love you. To Jennifer Shen, a renowned forensic pathologist joining us, former San Diego Police Department crime lab director. You know, that's not easy, Jennifer. It's hard enough being a trial lawyer in the criminal business surrounded by a bunch of felons and male defense attorneys. That's not fun.

No offense, Schweitzer and Marone, but I can only imagine in your line of business how you made it to the top of crime lab director. My hat's off to you. That's a whole other can of worms. Jennifer Shin, how can you tell, what does burnt human flesh even look like? Because these photos are going to be showed to a jury. What does it look like? You know, listening to your description of the bodies, it's just, you know, it's heart-wrenching. And, you know, I've been through many, many crime scenes in my time. And, you know,

it's difficult to explain what it's like to be standing in front of a dead body. I was very worried about the first time I did it. And, you know, really, there's nothing left in the body. When someone's dead, there's nothing left there. And so you can handle that by just sort of working the case and trying to come up with things and information that will help solve the crime. But when you deal with something like this, it's the combination of the horrificness of the condition of the body. And, you know, looking at a burnt body, first of all, the smell is just so intense and terrifyingly awful. But just knowing the actions that occurred to create the situation in front of you, it's almost more than the average

person can take. And I think you probably have some pretty strong reactions by the cops at the scene when they found the bodies because it's just it's horrifying and when you know that these were children it's worse i mean it's just worse i don't know why but i'm trying to take in i mean i've seen i've been on murder scenes where cops actually threw up especially rookies yeah it's just horrifying it's so much uh it overload. Trying to figure out what does burnt human flesh look like. Because I've tried a lot of cases, including arson murder, but I've never seen just flesh, burnt human flesh. I know that Tylee was dismembered. So I don't know if this has to do

with Tylee or JJ. But I also know that burned human flesh is an awful acrid odor. There's nothing like it at all. It smells terrible. Have you ever seen burnt human flesh? Because I have not. I don't know what that looks like. No, I have to say I've been very fortunate not to have a scene where I had a burned body. But you are correct. The smell is overwhelming and it's undeniable. You know exactly what it is when you smell it. So, yeah, it's horrifying. We are talking about what was found during the search while cult mom Lori Vallow and her brand-new, Jack gets the fourth husband, right? Not judging, not judging.

But what I don't like about their marriage is that they planned their wedding and she bought her wedding dress and ring. And I guess after the Amazon order got there, they had to get rid of Tammy. Anyway, that's another story and another case to be tried. But as these two are canoodling over the jailhouse phone, this is what is going down. Roll it, Jack. The ME grabbed a small, sharp instrument and cut down the middle of the black plastic. Okay. And what did you observe? child in red pajamas, red pajama shirt, red pajama pants, black socks that had the word

sketchers in orange across the toes. I also observed a light and blue blanket that had been placed on top of him. Okay. Uh, detective were there, um, when you observed what you perceived to be a child, where that was there anything that drew your attention? Yes. Uh, can I describe one of, uh, can you describe for the court what drew your attention? The amount of duct tape that was covering the body. That is significant in psychological terms. The way that the bodies were hidden, the way that they were basically hermetically sealed with duct tape. Dr. Angela Arnold, remind me to circle back to you on that. But I want to go to

CrimeOnline.com and investigative reporter Dave Mack. You know what, Dave Mack, one of the first things I always ask, not the first, but one of the first, as you well know, because I've asked you, was the body clothed? And if so, what was the person wearing? You remember when Lacey Peterson's body was found, what was left of it in San Francisco Bay? She was still wearing, I believe, a maternity bra. And I forgot what else was on her body. That tells me a lot.

That tells me, based on where she was last seen and what she was wearing, maybe when she was killed, when she was abducted. Now, think back, Dave Mack. Think. Use that noodle, okay? The last time that JJ, seven-year-old JJ, is seen alive, according to someone visiting the home. Alex Cox, Lori Vallow's brother, came in the room, and JJ was asleep. He was holding him, isn't this right, in his PJs with a blanket over him. The medical examiner says, and we have now learned this in sworn testimony, black socks. That tells me exactly when JJ was killed, Dave Mack, and who had a hand in it. You know, Melanie Gibb described it as a touching moment on September 22nd when Alex Cox was carrying JJ because they thought JJ was asleep. He had his head on Alex's shoulder and it touched

them because they thought what a sweet picture this is of an uncle carrying his nephew. And JJ was wearing the red pajamas with the black socks, his head on his uncle's shoulder. Now we don't know if he was asleep at that time because of this, what we discovered when they found his body. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we were talking about recently revealed evidence, including cult mom Lori Vallow with her hubby on the phone having a session. While Daybell's property is being searched, the bodies of two of her children are found. A green bucket half-melted full of human flesh, a skull. These are her children.

And as this is happening, she's canoodling with Daybell on the phone. Um, Jackie, please go to cut 11. And I want you to hear how JJ's body was disposed. Where was that duct tape located? On the head, arms, and feet. Okay. Let's talk about the head area. When you looked at the head, what did you observe there?

The head had a white plastic bag over the top of it. It appeared to be a normal trash bag, had a red drawstring. It appeared to be the expandable type of trash bag with the waffle style pattern on top of the head. And you had mentioned duct tape there. Where did you observe the duct tape? It was duct tape that was tightly wrapped around this way, tightly from his chin to his forehead area. To Jennifer Shin, forensic pathologist, former San Diego PD crime lab director. Jennifer, the clothing on a body is very, very important. How do you explain to me,

how do you go about preserving everything? For instance, you get a body and it's wrapped like a mummy in duct tape. How do you preserve that duct tape? Because that's a great source of fingerprints. I'm sure Joseph Marone out of Philadelphia is shuddering thinking of his client's fingerprints on duct tape. You can't really hide that. And Donald Schweitzer, detective, it tells me a lot about how the bodies were sealed, so to speak. But Jennifer, how do you preserve that? And what do you do with the clothes? How do you preserve them for touch DNA or fibers or hair the killer may have deposited on there? Because I guarantee you, Jennifer, what Col cult mom and Daybell are going to do is try to blame Alex Cox that's going to be the scapegoat as if they knew nothing about it

and I can't wait to hear them explain how the bodies ended up on in his pet cemetery on his farm but Jennifer Shin how do you go about preserving the duct tape, the clothes, the fibers, the DNA? You know, it's a pretty complex process because you have so many layers. You know, it's always really good news for investigators that there are, there's a couple layers of plastic bags, there's duct tape, there's clothing, and whatever else they might find in that, you know, makeshift grave site. So it has to be done carefully. Everything has to be photographed and documented,

and then you just go from the outer layer in. I mean, the clothing will have to likely be dried out. So all the body fluids are dry. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What do you mean it has to be dried out? How do you do that? We have special hoods and things in the laboratory where if you have bloody clothing or clothing that's been on a body with decomposition of any kind, all of that has to be dried out so that all the body fluids become completely dry before they can be handled by anyone. So depending on the condition of the body, there are some things that have to be done just to make the evidence handleable by a scientist.

And the duct tape, you know, there's a lot of things you can do. You want to really preserve the ends of the duct tape. Let me understand something. You dry the items in a fridge? It's a hood. So it's a big, like a big square box where all of the air flow is contained in a ducting system so that the evidence can lay out and dry out while all of the smell and the putrefaction smell is captured in the ducting system. So it's just a matter of... Well, what do you call that box? It's not a fridge. And I thought you were saying fridge.

What is it? A hood, a fume hood. Hood. H-O-O-D, hood, yeah. And what was the word before that? Did you say flumed? Fume, F-U-M-E. Fume, hood. Gotcha, okay, all right. So once everything has been, in a situation that's dry, then you're going to look for that evidence. So in a duct tape in particular, you're right, fingerprints, you can get touched DNA. Sometimes if you're very lucky, you can connect the ends of the duct tape back to a specific role of duct tape. Same with plastic bags. You're really trying to take anything that's in that grave site and connect it back to the person that put the body in the grave site. So it's just a very complex process because there's so much of it,

and it has to be handled very carefully. You don't want to lose fibers and hairs, et cetera. It will take them quite a while to go through all of that evidence. You brought up something really interesting just then, the duct tape. You know, to you, Donald Schweitzer, a former L.A. detective, as we saw, again, I'll use the Tottenham, Casey Anthony case, a trash bag or duct tape, both of them can be traced back, if it's done properly and timely, to the manufacturer, the batch of duct tape, and where that batch was sold. Let's just say 325 boxes of duct tape were sent to Rexburg.

Let's just go with that. And you can identify which stores that batch was sent to. Then you go to the stores and you start pulling their video. So you can find when the perp bought the duct tape. Then if you got any brains at all, as they did in Tot Mom's case, you go to the home and you look for matching duct tape or matching trash bags to show that's who owned the duct tape or the trash bags. I don't know because it took so many months to get this case going, whether they did that. But how does that work?

How can we trace the duct tape back to its origin? Well, Nancy, first of all, I think these folks ought to hire you as a consultant here. That was a brilliant investigation analysis, something that I didn't even think about, quite frankly. How do they – you just described it. I I mean that's exactly how it would be done you know and this case is very very complicated so evidence like that would be very very useful I think that you know when all these pieces are put together they the puzzle is going to point to Lori and Chad but it's gonna take efforts like that well you know like you invite them over to dinner?

You're on a first main basis with Lori and Chad? Well, you know what? I'm bad with names. So Vallow and Daybell. Okay. I'll call them their last name. That makes me feel a little bit better. I got other names for them, but I won't do that in your show.

You know, I think that it's very complicated and that is a brilliant way to tie it back. You know, there is going to be an argument that, you know, the brother-in-law, Alex Cox, was the bad guy and, you know, he put the bodies in the backyard. But when you look at all the evidence that we know about so far, lying to authorities, asking others to lie, you know, mutilate bodies, the phone calls. I mean, it's pretty damning that they're at the very least accessories to the crime. The question is, did they actually do the murders or were they just covering up efforts? But it really doesn't matter because of the timeline that I think is involved in this case.

Tie profile defense attorney out of Philadelphia, Joseph Marone, maronelaw.com. Joseph, I don't know if you've ever dealt with fiber evidence, but I was really blessed to have worked at a high-volume crime jurisdiction, inner-city Atlanta, and I know you remember the Atlanta murders of young men and young boys by Wayne Williams. P.S., I think that a lot of those victims were lumped into Wayne Williams. I think he killed plenty of them. But at a certain point, they were just lumping in every black male

that was found in the water with Wayne Williams. He may have done them all, but I'm not totally sure about that. I know he did several. But you know what they did for the first time in the country? They used fiber evidence. In other words, based on what Jennifer Shin just told us, you preserve the evidence on the body, and they could find fibers. They're like, whoa, where'd these come from?

The back of Wayne Williams' car and his trunk and his apartment, his home, had a unique shag carpet. And it was traced back to the home and the car. So here, even though Alex Cox was living, I think, in the same apartment complex as Lori Vallow, I wonder if they could get fiber evidence off the bodies. They had to be killed somewhere. What about it, Joseph Marone? What about it? They haven't been charged with murder, and they've been kind of examining this case. Oh, please stop it.

But listen, they haven't brought the charges. You know the state that they want these people bad. They would have brought these murder charges already, but they don't have the evidence, the forensics evidence, to connect either Lori or Chad to the case. Right, right. It probably has Alex's DNA or forensics. Can I get you out of the weeds and back in the middle of the road?

Fiber evidence. Fiber evidence. But you can rest assured that Alex's DNA is all over those bodies. They even have digital forensics evidence of Alex being at the property the day those kids went missing. It's all over Alex. They haven't produced one piece of evidence all over. Really? Well, what? Joseph Marone.

Well, whose property? Alex Cox was at whose property? It was Chad's property. Oh, Chad Daybell's property. Chad knew about it. The closest thing they got to Chad knowing about it is the phone call that he had with his girlfriend that day where he didn't show the- B.S.

B.S. I don't know if you got that technical legal term up in Philly, but I know it very well when I smell it because Chad Daybill was stirring a fire in Tabbally. Chad and Lori are horrible people. This state wants to charge them with murder yesterday, and they haven't been able to do it yet. That's a problem.

That is a problem. Okay, you got me under the barrel this time, but not for long. We wait as justice unfolds. And I pray to God that Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow keep canoodling over the phone so I and a jury

can hear it. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Goodbye, friend.