Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Cult Mom Lori Vallow Scribbles Notes When Sex Affair With 'Prophet' Exposed in Court

Episode Date: April 17, 2023

Bombshell testimony from two former friends of Lori Vallow Daybell: Vallow Daybell 's former sister-in-law describes to the court how Vallow Daybell organized a "casting" for her estranged husband, Charles Vallow. Lori said Charles was possessed by a demon. Zulema Pastenes, the widow of Vallow Daybell’s brother, Alex Cox, also said that while discussing what to do if the casting didn't work, Vallow Daybell jokingly told her she “could always put some pills in his water.”   Melanie Gibb testified that Vallow Daybell asked her to lie to police for her and refused to explain why. Gibb says Vallow Daybell also would not tell her where JJ and Tylee were. All Vallow Daybell would say is the children were safe.  Joining Nancy Grace Today: Dale Carson- High-profile Criminal Defense Attorney (Jacksonville), Former FBI Agent & Former Police Officer (Miami-Dade County); Author: "Arrest-Proof Yourself; Twitter: @DaleCarsonLaw  Fil Waters- Former Homicide Detective for Houston police department; President & CEO of Kindred Spirits Investigations & Security, Inc.  Dr. Dana Anderson- Forensic Psychologist & Forensic Expert;  Twitter: @psychologydrcom, TikTok: @psychologydr  Dr. Michael Baden- Former Chief Medical Examiner of New York City and past Co-Director of the New York State Police Medico-Legal Investigations Unit- Author: "American Autopsy" Nate Eaton - News Director, EastIdahoNews.com Twitter: @NateNewsNow, Instagram: @n.eaton  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Cult Mom Lori Vallow. As we all know, the trial is going fast and furious. Testimony and evidence pouring from the witness stand as now we begin to see cult mom Lori Vallow's inner circle beginning to turn against her. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. First of all, I want you to take a listen to the prior contestant in the Mrs. Texas pageant. Here they are, the contestants for Mrs. Texas 2004.

Contestant number four, Lori Ryan. She is Mrs. Hayes County. Her husband's name is Joseph. They've been married for three and a half years and they have two children. Lori does have stage presence. She's very poised. She did everything beautifully. Tell us who you are and what you do. Being a good mom is very important to me and a good wife and a good worker and being all those things together is not easy so i'm basically a ticking time bomb hi how you doing laurie uh laurie ryan from austin texas hair stylist in austin hey that's right the best how's the hair in austin it's good good

us is a happening place probably thanks to you uh talk about your family a little bit i have a wonderful husband joseph at home who is watching our two beautiful children, Colby, who is seven, and Tylee, who is one. Yeah. What do you guys like to do for fun? We like to play all kinds of sports on our three acres. Okay. Sounds like you have a nice life there.

We do. Congratulations. Nice to have you with us. They did until Joseph Ryan ended up dead. Let's see. Which husband was that, Jackie? Two, I think. Number two.

Now we've got Charles Vallow is dead. Now we've got Tylee dead. Let's see. Which husband was that, Jackie? Number two. Now we've got Charles Vallow is dead. Now we've got Tylee dead. We've got JJ dead. We've got the wife of her new husband, number five, the prophet, Chad Daybill, dead. That would be Tammy Daybill. I'm missing a body. Who is it? Let's see. I'm sure Nate Eaton can help me. I haven't totally memorized my flow chart, but that's what I need to attach all the dead bodies to cult mom Lori Vallow. You were just hearing Lori Vallow competing in Mrs. Texas and then again on the wheel of fortune with Pat Sajak as she describes her happy life with Joseph Ryan before he ends up dead. Nate Eaton joining me, news director, EastIdahoNews.com.

Nate, thank you for being with us. I understand that cult mom Lori Vallow's, quote, inner circle is turning on her. What do you mean by that? Yeah, for the past few days, two of her very, very close friends during all of this took the stand in court and they told all they spilled the tea, you could say, about casting, quote unquote, zombies out of people, about the text messages that were going back and forth, about how the night that somebody showed up in Tammy Daybell's driveway with a gun and fired it at her. Lori then texted, we now know that was Alex Cox, her brother, by the way. Lori then texted when Tammy did not die that she couldn't do anything right, that he was an idiot and a moron. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

You got me drinking from the fire hydrant again. And to the rest of the panel, do I have to remind you, especially you, Dr. Michael Bodden, we're not having high tea at Windsor Castle with King Charles. Okay. Jump in when you have a thought.

Alex was the one you were looking for. Alex before you were looking for the last one. Yes. Yes. Alex Cox. Thank you. Thank you. So, Nate Eaton, let me understand this.

Before we even get to, we're still talking about JJ and Tyler, her two children. One was basically her medically sealed in duct tape and plastic. That was J.J. Tylee was dismembered and rendered down to, there's no nice way to put it, a bucket full of human fat and flesh that had been burned, charred. That was what was left of this beautiful teen girl, Tylee. But you're talking about texts and you got into Tammy Daybell, her death. Alex Cox took a shot at her. She wrongly thought it was somebody doing a prank with a paintball gun. And after he didn't kill her in her driveway, are you saying that Colt Mom

Lori Vallow sent him a series of vengeful texts and messages because he failed well that very night laurie was gathered with this close group of friends to do a casting ceremony which they were they said they were trying to cast the evil spirit out of tammy and at the end of this ceremony, Lori said, that was a success. That was great. And then she got a call and these friends testified that on that call, she was saying, he's an idiot. He's a moron. He can't do anything right. At the time, the friends did not know that Alex Cox was in Idaho, supposedly taking a shot at Tammy in the driveway, but Lori was furious that whatever was going on there didn't happen. Then 10 days later, Tammy Daybell dies in her sleep.

We now know of asphyxiation. I thought it was determined to be manual strangulation. No, asphyxiation. They said that the other day in court. Just asphyxiation. Correct, yeah. So when the brother failed taking a shot at her, she had to die another way. I think I hear Dr. Michael Bodden.

First of all, let me introduce to you Dr. Bodden, a longtime colleague and friend. Goes back a long time. Yeah, we really do, Dr. Bodden. And not necessarily because of your fame as being one of the world's most preeminent medical examiners but because i'm friends with your wife that's how that happened yes dr michael bodden former chief medical examiner in new york city never a lack of business there co-director new york state police medico-legal investigations author of american autopsy and you can find them at dr michael bodden.com what were you saying, doctor?

What I was going to say with Tammy, what was odd was initially when she was found dead back in October 19th, 2019, an autopsy was not done. She was exhumed a year later on December, well, about a year later, I think. And as far as I could find, I hadn't listened in the trial. The results had not been released, but I guess the results were asphyxiation. That asphyxiation could be a neck compression or just putting a pillow over her nose and mouth just means you couldn't breathe so how do you tell dr michael bodden and i know i've taken us off on a tangent but i i blame nate eaton completely for that where we were talking about tiling and jj that was my plan but you have to go where the evidence takes you how How can you look at a body, Dr. Bodden, and tell whether the person died of manual ligature or asphyxiation,

and what are the differences? Well, asphyxiation means the person can't breathe. Of course, it is the mechanism of death. But neck compression, manual ligature, or holding a pillow over the nose and mouth cause death the same way. So asphyxiation can occur in a number of different ways, especially if she's found in bed and has a strong husband.

Just putting a pillow over the nose and mouth and holding down for a few minutes can cause death and leave no marks. That's the most difficult kind of death to determine at autopsy. You have to allow a lot of other information. But the autopsy should also have looked for fractures of the hyoid bone or the thyroid cartilage, which could be helpful in determining if there was manual strangulation and if there's a ligature mark around the neck, which may or may not be apparent after exhumation. Phil Waters with us, former homicide detective with the Houston PD, president and CEO of Kindred Spirits Investigations and Security. Phil, thanks a lot for being with us.

I'm just really stunned that authorities did not insist on an autopsy at the time. Because you've got a husband, as he says, sleeping away, and he wakes up and his wife is, whoops, dead. And it was believed she, quote, died in her sleep of, I guess, a heart attack. But I mean, he was already having a sex affair with cult mom Lori Vallow. That would be enough to raise a big red flag for me. It is one of those situations,

you've already used the term when I was a homicide detective, I always let the evidence lead me where I need to be, and it's always a journey for the truth. And the problem is, at the time, people, investigators, the authorities, they don't know what they don't know. So if there's nothing at the scene that would indicate that there was some sort of suspicious death surrounding Tammy, I can understand why they did not call for an autopsy. You do understand when a 49-year-old woman who was in training for a marathon just dies in her sleep without a sound?

The guy that wrote the book Running died of a heart attack while he was running at an early age. That's right, up in Maine. He died running. Hello? I'll probably have a's right, up in Maine. He died running. Hello? I'll probably have a heart attack going up the stairs. But I mean, yeah, I can understand dying of a heart attack

while you're running, but when you're sleeping? Well, there's been people that die in their sleep all the time. Wait a minute, Phil Waters, I know you are a renowned homicide detective, but I'm not taking your medical advice. Sorry.

Dr. Bodden, do people usually keel over in their sleep from a heart attack? But what I'm saying is, is that at the time, if there is nothing that would indicate that there's something suspicious about this, if that... I'm holding, I'm literally holding my nose right now because that stinks i'm just telling you you have to look at these things objectively when i get there and i'm just saying that if there wasn't something there that that showed it was something other than a medical death there would have been no reason for an autopsy. Hey, Phil Waters. Well, in Florida. Wait, wait, wait. Phil Waters, are you there? Phil, speak. You're going to have an autopsy in Florida. Yes, ma'am. Okay, speak up

because I'm losing you. I can't really hear you that well. Look, you're going to have an autopsy in Florida for sure. Dale Carson, you're not Phil Waters. What do I have to do to get a sound check in this place? Phil, say something. No, no, no. Well, I wasn't talking because

everybody else was talking okay good good okay now stop dr bodden wait a minute phil waters are you married yes ma'am i've been married for over 40 years stop that was a yes no because if you die in the middle of the night with no prior history of heart problems and your wife is texting and sleeping with some other guy god forbid and she tells me oh he died in his sleep don't worry phil i'm gonna throw her face down on the floor and arrest her with a pair of cuffs and drag her out by her toes okay and you can tell her that for me because i'm not buying it that said to dr to Dr. Michael Button, I didn't know people typically kill over dead in their sleep with a heart attack. Well, yeah, that's a common way people

who have pre-existing diagnosed severe coronary artery disease can die in their sleep. How about no pre-existing like Tammy Daybell? It's very unusual to die in your sleep if you don't have pre-existing evidence of heart

disease. But in this, just as in some states require the medical examiner to get involved, others, like when I read through about Tammy, Chad had objected to it, did not want an autopsy. And apparently if the next of kin doesn't want an autopsy unless there's something obvious at the scene uh they just signed it out without an autopsy uh because he was the next of kin and so let me one more time and i know it's hard to get dr bodden to answer yes or no i hate to even try to cross-examine him i might as well go back in the courtroom because I'm a JD, not a DDS. I'm not good at pulling teeth, but I declare all of you on this panel as hostile witnesses right now. Okay. So that's how it's going to be. So Dr. Bodden, to reiterate, with no prior history

of heart problems, heart murmurs, heart anything, no history, you would agree with me that it's highly unlikely that Tammy Daybell killed over in her sleep with a heart attack yes I agree with that how long did that take me eight minutes we're looking at this we're looking at this is what we know now we're looking at it backwards so I'm just saying at the time and I'm not defending anybody here I'm just saying at the time, and I'm not defending anybody here, I'm just saying at the time, at the time, there was nothing to suggest that this was suspicious. And just as Dr. Biden has alluded to, if the request for an autopsy is by virtue of the next of kin, and the next of kin says they don't want one,

then that's what they're going to abide by. And I don't know about you guys, but when the next of kin says, I don't want an autopsy, that's exactly when I'm going to start questioning them separately. That said, speaking of texting and emailing

and sneaky sex where nobody can find out you're with the person, let's take a listen to a not-so-sneaky email. Our cut 237. Take a listen to this. I bet you can figure out who this is from. Charles at Wright Planning Group. Email address to Tammy.Daybell at gmail.com on June 30th at 2019 at 1016 a.m.

The subject line in the email is, Your husband and my wife and the body of the email reading are having an affair. Her name is Lori Vallow. I've got definitive proof if you care to see it. Contact me and I'll share it with you. It's devastating, I know, but the truth needs to be shown. Charles Vallow. And from your review of the device,

were you able to determine whether or not Tammy Debo would have actually read these emails? I did contact at least Sugar Salem School District and asked if those were read. There's no indication that they were. They said they could have been deleted, read and deleted, or just deleted. But there's no indication. Okay, Nate Eaton, news director, EastIdahoNews.com. Well, that sure, let's just say, here's a legal term. That's the turd in the punch bowl.

All right. There goes Tammy Daybell's happy life. She was living in blissful ignorance about her husband. And believe me, I don't think that cult mom Lori Vallow was special. I think there were many other women that he would. This was actually his punch line. I may need to shrink on this dr dana anderson he would say you've lived a prior life and you and i were married so basically we've already had sex so there's nothing wrong with it don't try that at a bar anybody but nate eaton so here we have detective nathan duncan out of the uh kemler police testifying as to this email. So do we know if Tammy Daybell read that email? No, there's no indication of that, Nancy. And this was interesting. When the detective took the stand, he went through a series of emails, one after the other, between Charles Vallow, Laurie Daybell, Vallow at the time, Tammy Daybell, and Chad Daybell. Basically, Charles Vallow found on

his computer these emails that showed sign of an affair. He reached out to all parties involved and said, somebody come clean with this. Somebody tell us what's going on here. He gave Lori a deadline. He said, you have until tomorrow or I'm calling Tammy. I'm contacting Tammy. Lori responded, she won't talk to you she's my friend so Charles reached out he then confronted Chad who never responded to an email 10 days later later Charles Vallow is shot dead well you have to commend Charles Vallow he didn't take the predictable route of just throwing a firebomb into Chad Daybell's house he tried to email them but I'm curious. I'm very curious,

Nadine. We have no way to determine whether Tammy Daybell or her husband, Chad Daybell, read the email. So she went to her death not knowing her husband was cheating? I don't know. According to the detective, he says they don't know if she read the email or not. But what another witness said is that the second Tammy started to suspect there was an affair, suddenly she moved from the light list to the dark list and a zombie possessed her body. Okay, you're scaring me because you actually say this like you believe it's real, like a zombie really did possess tammy did tammy daybell's body and everybody that was against laurie vallow's sex affair with chad daybell turns into a zombie um let's see there's charles vallow he died jj tyler tammy and i know COD cause of death on Alex Cox

but I find a hard time believing it that he died of an aneurysm is that Biden speaking? yeah he conveniently died of at one place they say a brain aneurysm another pulmonary embolism

it would be an interesting autopsy report to look at you're so smart. Oh, I didn't think of that. I'm kicking myself. Yes. Nancy, what impressed me most was Tammy and Chad had been married, from what I read, for 30 years. This wasn't an honor and awe thing.

They were married 30 years before she died in her sleep could you guys once again now i can't blame biden for this you're leading me down the garden path and i have no desire to put the bus back in the middle of the road dr dana anderson and dale carson jump in when you when you want to nancy i'd like to say you you go you go ahead because i've got a former medical question and it's going to take me a second. Go ahead. Dr. Dana Anderson with me, forensic psychologist, forensic expert at psychologydoctor.com. Go ahead, Dr. Dana. Well, officially, I'd like to go on record and request that if I ever die, I would like an autopsy.

And I'm hoping we can just drop a legal draft about that right now. Don't worry, I'll handle it. Next. You can't, because once you die, you're a property of the next of kin. And if the next of kin agrees with you, fine. But if not... I don't know, Biden. I'll find a way.

You stick to your autopsy table. I'll handle the courtroom. Go ahead, Dr. Dana. Well, and second of all, I agree. We're going to all need to see a shrink after all of listening to all this nonsense and just debriefing about

all of this. Lori Vallow and her beliefs about these zombies. It's just, it's infuriating. And I'm angry, Dr. Dana, that she could attempt or maybe even persuade a juror that she has mental problems but she's crazy she's crazy like a fox because everybody that she believes

has gone to the dark side or has become a zombie ends up dead she's using her religious beliefs to get rid of anything and anybody that stands in the way of her hopping in bed with the prophet Daybell. Remember when she was castigating her brother for not carrying out the shooting properly. That's all part of the plan. You have a seance or whatever the hell it's called. And then you determine that you've cast out the evil spirit, and then suddenly that person dies, so it validates the entire process to your friends. It's pretty clever, really.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. crime stories with nancy grace dill carsey joining me high profile lawyer out of jacksonville this is the part i really like former fbi uh agent and former cop with miami-dade never like a business there as well an author of arrest proof yourself so let me circle back dr bodden i've never explored this and that was genius what you just said for you i'm sure it's like routine but it's not you identified two conflicting cod causes of death for alex cox the so-called avenging angel for cult mom Lori Vallow. Her words, not mine. And they were embolism and aneurysm? Brain aneurysm that ruptured. What is the difference between the two?

Well, one is getting blood clots in the legs that then break off and go to the lungs and cause a natural death. The other is a ruptured aneurysm in the brain that can be treated if gotten to a hospital, but if not, the person dies of brain hemorrhage. Both are usually natural deaths. What's an aneurysm? It's a ballooning out of a blood vessel. Okay, hold on. Wait a minute. Let me catch up with you. Okay, they didn't teach this in law school. Wait a minute. An embolism, you're saying, they didn't teach this in law school. Wait a minute. An embolism, you're saying, is a blood clot typically in the legs that can go to the heart or the lungs. Is that what you said? Yes.

Okay, and a brain aneurysm. Hey, is it aneurysm or aneurysm? Aneurysm. A-N-E-U-R. I've heard so many people say aneurysm, but it's aneurysm. A brain aneurysm is when a blood vessel balloons and ruptures in the brain. Right. Two totally different things. Because I thought for a minute that they were both kind of like a blood clot. But they're not at all.

If I can say something real quick here. Remember, too, that the autopsy, the tox results on Cox show that he had Narcan in his system. So I don't know if that's a contributing factor or not. Good point. Is that Phil Waters speaking? Yes, ma'am. Good point. He had an interesting, would it, Dr. Biden? And why in the world did he have Narcan in his system. That usually would indicate that the ambulance response, when it was found unconscious, they came and they would give Narcan just in case it's a drug overdose. But the Narcan doesn't cause any harm.

So, Nate Eaton, that's another fun thing for you to do in all your spare time. Nate Eaton, everyone joining me from EastIdahoNews.com, has been in the courtroom. He was there before they even brought in cult mom Lori Vallow. Okay, tell me what's the latest before I go. Oh, hey, hey, I want you to hear one more email. This is a humdinger. Take a listen to our cut 238. A message from Charles to Lori on June 30th.

I believe that should be 2019, of 0842. Lori, I know you don't care how I feel, but just imagine this. How could my actions or breaking your heart result in what you've done? You accuse me of infidelity, but it's you who have been having an affair. It just keeps killing me. Maybe that's your goal. How can you live with yourself destroying our life, Mel and Brandon's? Probably Mel and Brandon too.

Now add Chad Daybell family and you've got a home run. The fact you will continue to go to the temple after all you've done shocks me. There really is something wrong with you i really don't want to do what i have to do but you have to be exposed for what you really are and he didn't quite make it to exposing his wife because he was murdered and take a listen to 239 it doesn't end there july 1st, 2019 at 1031. Charles to Lori. I'm going to Idaho first to meet with Tammy Daybell.

Lori responds to Charles a minute later. She won't see you. She is my friend. She won't listen to you. Go ahead. You are ridiculous. Are you coming to JJ for for the fourth or not charles responded to laurie july 1st 2019 at 10 37 then you tell me why you used my name and and fictitious email to send a

bs email about a book i am having him ghostwrite for me it's's fraud and a lie. There's no reason for it other than to get him in Arizona and have an excuse for his wife. You're hearing the detective reading. That's Detective Nathan Duncan. And he's not a dramatic person at all. I find him to be very down to earth. But when he was reading that email from Charles Vallow to Lori Vallow, cult mom, it was very heartbreaking. He was saying, I can't believe you're doing this

and tearing apart our family. And here you've been accusing me of an affair and you were the one having an affair. And now you're going to go to temple like nothing ever happened and how long after those emails nate eaton after he threatened to expose the affair to tammy daybell did he die oh less than two weeks and i gotta tell you is he read those emails for 45 minutes and text messages the jurors were fixed on this detective. Many were writing notes. Many were

looking directly at Lori Vallow. She's sitting directly across from them in the courtroom. They can look at her the entire time. Lori was taking notes herself, occasionally looking up at the detective, occasionally talking with her attorneys. They were all focused on this. But I have to tell you, the most memorable moment thus far is the the second that the prosecutors put up what was left of tyler on the screen pictures of teeth of half half of a soul uh the the bucket of flesh and then we saw jj wrapped in duct tape and then we saw JJ wrapped in duct tape and then we saw Tammy's autopsy photos and after all of that they showed the photo of Chad and Lori on the beach holding hands with those wedding rings they bought on Amazon as they said this case boils down to three things money power sex.

I've got to ask you Nate Eaton what was cult mom Lori Vallow doing? Did she ever look at the jury? Did she keep scribbling notes the whole time? Lori has been very engaged with her attorney. She's taking notes. At one point, one of her attorneys said, you need to stop talking to me. I need to focus. Oh, gosh. You know, that's really interesting. Dale Carson, I don't know about you, but I tried every one of my cases solo because I could not have anybody talking to me during a trial. It's like a tennis match. Witness, jury, witness, jury, until the judge breaks in and says something. But I would even have to have my investigator, who I had for 10 years, who I love to this day.

We only ever had one argument in 10 years over that idiot O.J. Simpson. No offense, Dr. Michael Bodden, but Dale Carson, of course she's taking notes. Yeah, I want to ask you, Dr. Bodden, how did you guys get O.J. Simpson to write notes? What was he playing, Heymans with himself? But Dale Carson, that's what they do when they can't look the jury in the eyes. They act like they're write notes. What was he playing? Heymans with himself. But Dale Carson, that's what they do when they can't look the jury in the eyes. They act like they're taking notes. They're just drawing squiggly lines. That's exactly right. And it's very disconcerting because you've got to watch the witnesses as they testify. You've got to look at their faces. You've got to look at their

verbal and tonal responses to questions and then you have somebody sitting right at your shoulder grabbing it wanting to talk to you because they're nervous because the witness is doing a rather excellent job so it's extremely upsetting and troubling when they do that so dr biden i guess you're going to tell me what oj simpson was really drawing on those notepads and notice i said drawing not writing i'll tell me what OJ Simpson was really drawing on those notepads. And notice I said drawing, not writing. I'll tell you what one of the lawyers there was drinking. It wasn't soda. I have no doubt. I managed to get a little bit out of Cochran during the time that I worked with him at Court TV, God rest his soul, because he sure had a way with a jury. But I would not be surprised at all if it would drive anybody to drink it was uh the

other uh heavyweight uh lawyer bailey effley bailey was taking uh mints during the during the trial while i was there and uh because he was drinking vodka well i just assume effley bailey was having a drink during the trial. But, okay, when you have something else to shock me, go ahead and tell me. But I can tell you this much, Nate Eaton, News Director, EastIdahoNews.com. I'm a teetotaler, and this is about to drive me to a drink. And I don't even know what I want to drink listening to all this. Because behind all this, I keep thinking about, I think about J.J., but I think more about Tylee, even though J.J. was only seven years old. I keep thinking about my twins at age seven, but Tylee was

dismembered, her bones broken, severed, and then she was burned, and all that was left, she was so disrespected, even in death, all that was left was this half-melted bucket of fat and human tissue. That's all that was left of this beautiful girl with that great big smile she had. Because she got in cult mom Lori Vallow's way. And some of this sounds laughable. It's not. When you think about it like that. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

You know who was a great witness, Eaton? Was this, is it Zulema Pastanis? How do you say Alex Fox's widow's name? Zulema. Zulema. Zulema Pastanis. Guys, take a listen to our cut, 2, 5, 2, 3, and 4. So you went to Ms. Gibbs' house and did you see the defendant there? Yes.

Tell us about that first meeting. What happened during that first meeting? Lori was speaking and during this meeting, she was giving a testimony that she had had visitations of angels and that she had visitations of the angel Moroni that was giving her instructions and that she was a personal witness of Jesus Christ. When you say she was giving testimony of the visitation from angels and specifically the angel Moroni, what did that mean to you? When someone is getting such visitations from a heavenly being it would mean that this person has very

high spiritual standing someone who is very right righteous and is just above, spiritually above other people. Did you hear anything else? I thought you said something about a witness to Jesus or Jesus Christ. Yes. What does that mean? So that would mean that you actually have a personal conversation, physical conversation with Jesus Christ and what significance did that have to you

that would be the highest the spiritual experience that any human being can have. Nate Eaton joining us from EastIdahoNews.com. The fact that this woman would use the name of Christ and to the Mormons, I'm sure that they're furious, she has brought up the angel Moroni as giving her instructions to murder her children and Tammy Daybell. I mean, there's got to be some Mormons on that jury. Oh, I'm sure there are, Nancy. I bet they were spinning on their ears when she brings out Moroni. And I think anybody that uses the name of Jesus Christ to try to defend this type of activity would have an issue with it. And it's interesting, the witnesses would say that if the plan that Chad and Maury had, the plan that they had saying that these people would die by such and such a date, if it didn't happen, then they would follow up with, well, it wasn't God's will. Instead, we need to do this.

The bar was constantly moving and constantly changing until everybody in their way could be eliminated and Chad and Lori could be together. Dr. Michael Bodden, joining me, former chief medical examiner in New York City. Dr. Bodden, how many so-called religious deaths have you seen where people actually use religion, use our Holy Father as their cover, using Christ like this to cover up their murder? My experience has been largely in New York and New York City in particular, and that doesn't become an issue very often. I can't remember except occasionally after somebody has died, instead of reporting it, keeping a memorial around the body at home

with all kinds of different applications of liquids to the body of the person, of their loved one, for religious reasons. But I haven't really come across when religion is used as an excuse. I have, Dr. Bodden. Sadly, Phil Waters, former homicide detective and now CEO of Kindred Spirits Investigations and Security, joining us out of Houston. Phil, again, thank you for being with us. I've seen a lot of parents who end up murdering their children as some sort of bizarre exorcism or some religious fasting or diet. I've seen that a lot.

And parents claiming their children are demonic and then the child ends up dead. I don't know that I've seen that type of thing in my career. I worked 23 years in HBD homicide, retired from there, worked over 400 homicides, and worked a lot of child deaths and baby deaths, that kind of thing. There's only a couple that I can think of that didn't really have a religious component to it but may have had an influence on it and it's always a question you know this but this case is this is jim jones proportions

in terms of the religious cult foundation for this thing. And she, and just as a person who's conducted hundreds of interviews and watching somebody like Lori Dayville in a trial and her making notes and talking to the attorneys and that kind of thing, to me, this is an indication that she is wanting to continue to be in control of her surroundings and her circumstance. Well, you're so right. And Nate Eaton, following up on what Phil Waters is saying, former homicide detective,

I want you to listen to our cut 247. Chad Daybell, the so-called prophet, had actually elevated Colt Montelori Vallow to goddess status and trying to convince Alex Cox to go kill people. Listen to this. Powerful goddesses were needed to be protected and you were selected to help protect your sister. And you helped her in numerous prob violations as a defender. You had a special bond to her from the cream of the world.

You connected there. And as she grew in power, you were right there beside her. Dr. Dana Anderson, forensic psychologist. What is wrong with these people? There you have Chad Daybell giving a so-called patriarchal blessing on Alex Cox, Valo's cult mom's brother, so he could go kill some more people on her behalf, elevating her to goddess status and somehow making it OK for Alex Cox to commit more murders. Well, one of the things I wanted to say earlier, you were talking about these religious themes that people use to make excuses for the behaviors.

I wanted to say I do see that and I specifically assess for that. And it's malingering, which is lying for secondary gain. People that are trying to say they have these grandiose religious delusions. That's actually something as a forensic psychologist I test for and a test of malingering psychosis and I catch people when they lie and so in this case obviously Lori Vallow was found to be incompetent at some point so there was a point in time where these delusions which she was reporting were thought to be maybe a mental illness she's highly manipulative and deception well if you think she's crazy or she's having a delusion dr dana anderson i want everybody to hear our cut 255 yeah she's not crazy listen did she ever talk about other plans you, that if the casting didn't work,

did she talk about other ways to deal with Charles? When we were at my house in March of 2019 and we had done the casting, she was laughing, and she said that, well, if it doesn't work, I can always put some pills in his water or something, and then she laughed it off. And then when that didn't work, Charles Vallow was shot dead. Nate Eaton, what happens next? We're going to have more witnesses on the stand.

The prosecution has a list of 90 possible witnesses, and the defense has publicly said that they have very few, if any, witnesses when it's their turn. So Zulema Pascenas will continue to testify about her workings with Lori. We'll hear from detectives. Lori's oldest son could possibly take the stand. And this trial is expected to last three to four more weeks. I can't wait. Nancy Gray, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.