Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - CULT-MOM Lori Vallow set to walk free? WHERE ARE MISSING CHILDREN?

Episode Date: May 1, 2020

Cult mom Lori Vallow returns to court today asking a judge to reduce her bond, allowing her to go home. Vallow still has not revealed where JJ and Tylee are.Joining Nancy Grace today to discuss: Joseph Scott Morning, Professor of Forensics Jacksonville State University, author "Blood Beneath My Feet." Ashley Willcott - Judge and trial attorney, Anchor on Court TV Bobby Chacon - Former Special Agent FBI, screenwriter on "Criminal Minds" Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Beverly Hills Sheryl McCollum - Director, Atlanta Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Levi Page - Investigative reporter CrimeOnline Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Hi guys, Nancy Grace here. At a time when we are all pulling together to fight coronavirus, COVID-19, I have something for you. An all free e-chapter on coronavirus crimes and how to fight them. Don't be a coronavirus crime victim from door-to-door sales of fake

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Hit the link and download it for free. Arm yourself against criminals and scam artists, cons, that will not only take advantage of you, but take advantage of you, your parents, your grandparents, the people you love at a time when we are all fighting the virus. I hope you go to CrimeOnline.com and download this. It's been highly researched and presented for you for free. Goodbye, friend. Keep the faith. The so-called cult mom, Lori Vallow, hit the headlines when her two children, JJ and Tylee, go missing. But they were last with her.

She has done everything possible to evade questions about where are her children, all the while espousing her beliefs in a doomsday cult, according to her and her Prepare the People cult. The world will end in July. But you know what? We'll burn that bridge when we get there. Right now, I want to know, where are her children? children. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. As police in many states look for Tylee and JJ, mommy, cult mom, Lori Vallow decides to go on a Hawaii vacation with her new lover. And while there, they get married. Seemingly not concerned that it's only two weeks since his wife died in her sleep and her husband was shot dead by her brother. Funny how that was just such perfect timing.

But right now, what I'm concerned about, in addition to where are the children, are they dead or alive? Is cult mom Lori Vallow set to walk free on a lowered bond? Is this happening in what universe? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. Lori Vallow to walk free without divulging where are her two missing children? No. What judge in his or her right mind would do that? Well, guess what? They have been thinking about it for a long time. Take a listen to our friends at Fox 13 Utah, Adam Herberts. Within two weeks of Tammy's death, Chad married Lori Vallow, who, as you remember, has been a widow now for about three months. On November 26th, family members started to

get concerned. They hadn't heard from the kids, JJ or Tylee. They asked for a welfare check, and police said the newlyweds lied about the children's location. We've gotten pretty much the runaround. I don't know what happened to those kids. I know that there's people who do and they're not talking. You've used the word cult. What do you mean by that? Their focus is just so much on the end of the world and you know this this idea that it's coming. The next day Rexburg police served a search warrant. They found out Chad and Lori left their home abruptly, so they called in the FBI. If I could say anything to him, I would just say, tell the truth, you know? At this point,

police determined the death of Chad's wife, Tammy Daybell, may be suspicious. So on December 11th, they went to her gravesite in Springville and exhumed her body for further testing. The day after that, Lori Vallow's brother, Alex Cox, died in Gilbert, Arizona. Wow. You get around Lori Vallow, cult mom, and you risk dropping dead, drop dead like a fly. With me, an all-star panel, Ashley Wilcott, judge and trial lawyer, anchor of Court TV. You can find her at AshleyWilcott.com. Bobby Chacon, former special agent, FBI screenwriter, Criminal Minds. Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst. Joining us from Beverly Hills Instagram, Dr. Bethany Marshall. Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute and crime scene

expert. Levi Page, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter and professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, you know all about the cult. What can you tell us? Well, you know, this fellow who's been writing these tracks or books or whatever it is, he claims that, you know, he has the only one vision for us all to egress into heaven. And, you know, they bought into it hook, line and sinker. As a matter of fact, they've got other people that follow them. They're an offshoot of a larger religion, a larger belief system. And I think that many people look at them as a collection of religion. Well, Mormonism, I believe. Yeah. You know how I made that many people look at them as a collection of myths. What religion? Well, Mormonism, I believe. Mormons.

Yeah, you know how I made that connection? Because the Mormons, that's where I first heard of the only 144,000 people. And since the history of the world started, are going to make it to heaven. That's, I think, their theory. So that's why I thought this was an offshoot of Latter-day Saints. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, you and Beverly Hills have dealt with a lot of cult cases. There's a lot of cults out in your neck of the woods, Dr. Bethany, as you well know. So people do things out of this belief that they wouldn't normally do. That's not a

defense at law. Is it, Ashley Wilcott? You're the judge and trial lawyer. Just because you say, the cult told me to, you're not going to get away with packing your children off, not telling the relatives or the courts, much less killing them. Not at all. Now, you may or may not be surprised that when I'm on the bench, I do hear that defense. We hear defendants trying to argue that. But you are absolutely right. It is not a legal defense to say somebody else made me do it. You know, this whole cult thing, Dr. Bethany Marshall, you're hearing from a judge and trial lawyer that it's actually used a lot. Somebody made me do it. But what happens to these cult members?

I mean, it goes all the way, it goes way back. A simple one to refer to is Manson, a cult. Jim Jones, they literally drank poison Kool-Aid because Jones told them to. I mean, it goes on and on. But taking your own life is bad enough. But potentially taking the lives of your children. This in the backdrop, Lori Vallow wants to walk free from jail. Nancy, what they do in these calls, I'm sorry, I did not mean to interrupt, but I'm just so eager to tell you this, is that you have two self-professed charismatic leaders, Lori and Chad Daybell.

They recruit weaker members, and it's almost like a psychological Ponzi scheme, that all the benefits accrue from the bottom up. So they separate their followers from their loved ones, from their money, from their possessions, from their free time. And an essential feature of cults is that they build firewalls within the cult. And what that means is that often members are not allowed to talk to the outside world or to stronger members. Everything is very compartmentalized. So somebody who begins to gain strength and to splinter out of the cult will often be disposed of or stalked in some way, what we see in Scientology. So what if those two kids, they're in high school, what if they're beginning to question the cult or say, wow, this is crazy, or tell their school teacher the firewall is broken. Tylee is, well, one of the lies Valerie told cult mom Lori Valos

that she had gone, I believe it was to Rexburg, to college. And as it turns out, she's not there, never was there. That one is college age. I think she's 17 or 18. Her dad, Tylee's dad, was Ryan. Last name Ryan. I believe it was Joe Ryan. He's dead. That was one, two, three husbands ago. He turns up dead, and he was immediately cremated. Then she marries Vallow.

He gets shot dead by her brother. And now she's on Daybell, the cult leader. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking about the fact that Lori Vallow has tried to convince a judge, is trying to convince a judge to lower her bond and walk free and still has not divulged to this moment where are her children. Take a listen to EastIdahoNews.com, our friend Nate Eaton. Back in October, at the beginning of October, Chad Daybell was still married to Tammy Daybell. She died on October 19th. But on October 2nd, we have uncovered from an Amazon account that Lori was

using the purchase of her wedding ring, had it shipped to her address in Rexburg under the name of Charles Vallow, her ex-husband. And we're told that she repeatedly used Charles's Amazon account after he passed away. So it's interesting that on October 2nd, she would purchase the wedding ring that she was then photographed in getting married to Chad on the beach. Weeks later, she bought the ring when Tammy was still alive. And that's the same day that she and Chad, a man we believe is Chad, visited the storage unit in Rexford. And that's the same day that Brandon Bordeaux was shot at in Arizona.

So a lot was happening on that day with a lot of different players. And Levi Page, when she, cult mom Lori Vallow, was pictured on video going into a storage unit just before she disappears to get married in Hawaii, what was found in that storage unit, Levi Page, Crime Online? Nancy, it was belongings of the two kids, you know, their games, clothing, pictures, all their personal items were abandoned in the storage unit, which was odd. Why would you do that? Yeah, why would you do that? Cheryl McCollum, director of Cold Case Research Institute, you can find out a lot about somebody by looking at their Amazon and their online activity. I mean, if you look at mine, you think, what is going on?

This woman orders one big bag after the next of guinea pig food. And then there's a ukulele pick. And then there's this and then there's that. None of it makes any sense at all. But I can tell you this much. If she's ordering a wedding dress and a wedding ring before her groom's wife is dead, I got a problem with that, Cheryl McCollum. Well, it's one of those red flags, Nancy, that you and I love so much. I think that's more than a red flag.

I think that set the whole house on fire. It's pretty much a parade coming down Peachtree Street. Absolutely. So you and I love to sit down and look at pre and post behavior. So if you watch what has been happening, what's currently happening, then you start listing these things that are bizarre. So the things that she's buying, the things that she's planning, her future is a wedding in the very near future. Oh, oh, oh, hold on, Cheryl. If you look at her

search for the wedding dress, it says beach wedding dress. B-E-A-C-H. Right. So she knew not only that she was getting married, but it would be at a beach. And in fact, she and Daybell, as soon as his wife is buried, head straight to Hawaii. No thought of telling anybody where the children are and get married on the beach. That's pretty specific, Cheryl McCollum. It's real specific, and they wasted no time. Nancy, all of this happens within 11 days. So even if you're planning to elope, that's a pretty short amount of time with everything that had to be put into place for her.

And she's very blase about the whereabouts of her children. You know, I want to go to Bobby Chacon, former special agent, FBI screenwriter, criminal minds. I know you got a lot to draw on when you write your screenplays for criminal minds. This is a doozy. Have you found Bobby Chacon with all the people that you've come in contact with? Sometimes, it's true, if you give them enough rope, they'll hang themselves. I mean, who would go onto Amazon and order her wedding dress to marry the guy whose wife is still alive, and then she's dead a few days later yeah Nancy I think that's one of the that's one of the public's fascinations with this is the brazenness of

Lori Vallow's behavior and even in Chad Daybell's behavior the brazenness which would they operated these months from starting from last summer to this this winter and. I mean, it's just like they just didn't care to even hide what they were doing. And the public is frustrated because they're not being held accountable yet. And I understand that because when each of these things is overturned, you see more brazen behavior, more out in the open. I mean, the picture you cited on the beach where he's playing the ukulele and they're dressed in white linen, this is days after his wife dies, months after her husband dies of violent means and her children are still missing. They look absolutely blissful in that picture. They have ear-to-ear smiles. They're dancing on the beach. I mean, this is just behavior that is inconsistent with the life events that were taking place in both their lives at the time.

You're right, Bobby Chacon. Actually, she's actually doing the hula. I mean, she's doing the hand motions on the beach. Where are her children, dead or alive? You know, it's very hard for me to believe a mom would kill her own children, but if you're under the control, the mind control of a cult, you know, you've got to look at the track record, too. Everybody around her drops dead like flies. Bombshell right now, Lori Vallow demands a bond.

Now it's amazing to me once she was finally apprehended in Hawaii, she fights extradition, which is a very simple procedure. Two questions. Are you Lori Vallow? You can show that with a fingerprint. And are you the Lori Vallow wanted back in Rexburg, Idaho? Only those two questions. That's all. It's not a trial.

Just the answers to those questions. And if the answers are yes, that person has to be extradited home. And she was. So that $5 million bond suddenly was slashed by a judge who was a former defense lawyer to $1 million. But that wasn't good enough. Vallow insists on a lower bond. To Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, you've been on the case since the get-go along with us. Why would any judge in their right mind

consider a bond reduction? I have no idea. I think, well, actually I do. I think that potentially they're using this leverage. I recall back, it seems that I heard a comment that the DA, the prosecutor had made relative to this. And I think this speaks volumes. He says, hey, yeah, we'll consider a bond reduction. You tell us where the kids are. What are the odds that that's actually going to happen tomorrow?

The reality is, though, to Dr. Bethany Marshall, there's only two possibilities. Either the children are dead or she's got them tucked away with members of the cult because nobody in the family or the relatives know where the children are. Would you agree with those two possibilities? I would agree. And, look, as I always say, when a mother gets rid of her kids, she's paving the way for an idealized life. And the wedding on the beach, the ukulele,

and you know what? It's not so idealized now, right? She's begging for a bond reduction. She didn't get what she wanted. Long story short, we've seen her bond go down, down, down. In Hawaii, the judge said it at $5 million because she had already fled a police investigation in the 48 states. So then she gets to Rexburg and the bond is slashed to $1 million. crime stories with nancy grace Lori Vallow to walk free without divulging where are her two missing children? It goes on and on in the midst of all of this. We learn that the attorney general has taken over the case. But I want to circle back to where the children were last seen. To Cheryl McCollum, the last photo that we know of with Tylee and JJ together, the two were suddenly taken on a hiking trip to Yellowstone. Guys,

we're talking about cult mom Lori Vallow demanding a bail reduction to walk free. To you, Cheryl McCollum, that last photo of the two of them together is very ominous. Why? Nancy, I took my children to Yellowstone. And the first thing that just kind of came all over me was the vastness. I mean, it is so unbelievable. It is still straight-up wilderness. It is consumed with wildlife.

It has pockets of the fountains that's got boiling water all over the place. They've got buffalo. They've got all this stuff. And there are parts where if you started to hike, you would not only get lost, you could never be seen again. And the reality of that, Bobby Chacon, if those children had been killed in Yellowstone, would we ever find them? Well, you know, there's always hope. But, you know, the things that make it very difficult are both the size of the search location, which is massive in this case, and then the difficulty of the terrain to get to and to know. And so my, one of my initial jobs whenever I was doing a search like that is to really hone in on the search area, really dig down and limit the size of the area we need to search.

In this case, you know, a place like Yellowstone is so vast. Yes, you can hopefully track where they were, and then you can do an analysis of how far someone can hike on foot, you know, per day, for how long they were gone. So you do things like that to limit the amount of area you have to search. And then you have to deal with that area and how tough it is, how hilly it is, how rocky it is, all the different types of terrain that you might encounter. And those two things, you know, the bigger the search area and the more difficult the terrain, the less chance you're going to have of possibly finding what you're looking for. To Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics and author, what can you tell me about exothermic pools? Hey, listen, Nancy, one of the most disturbing things, you know, kind of dovetailing what Bobby had said, that really has set my mind to thinking, people think of Yellowstone with Old Faithful. And Old Faithful is a geothermic pool.

It's very hot, but these pools are everywhere around there and they can get up to a temperature of almost 500 degrees. I hate to say this, but if those kids have been disappeared, if you will, into one of these pools, the chances of finding them are going to be nil because it will literally reduce anything that remained of them. And that's what's really scary. So not only do you have to deal with pools, you've got to deal with this vast geographic area. And as investigators, that's one of the things that we have to take into consideration. Let me understand what you're saying. An exothermic pool would totally destroy any evidence of a body. Yeah, yeah. Particularly after a very short period of time,

if they are left submerged in here some way or just thrown in there, it will completely make these bodies reduce even down to the bone. And that's kind of chilling when you think about it. And it's actually the perfect way to get away with murder. Now, it's my understanding of the timeline that J.J. may have been spotted later on a ring doorbell. But I don't know that that date can be confirmed. And after the photo, and I'm looking at the photo right now, you can see it at CrimeOnline.com. The photo of the children at Yellowstone was on September 8th. September 8th. And to my understanding, Tylee, the 17-year-old daughter, was never seen again after that.

So demanding a lower bond, what can a state get out of that? Another issue we are now learning is that the attorney general has taken over the case. Let me go straight back to Levi Page, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. What, if anything, can you tell me about that? So Nancy, in October, Chad Daybell's wife, Tammy Daybell, she died. It was ruled natural circumstances. And now the attorney general in Idaho has completely taken over that case. Part of the reason why is before she had passed away, weeks later, she said that somebody pulled up in her driveway and pointed a paint gun at her and fired it, but it was empty, and then they drove away. And it was just really odd. But the motive, some people say that she was actually killed and murdered. And the motive for that would be Chad Daybell received at least $430,000 in life insurance proceeds. And Chad and Tammy

Daybell were living off of all of that money. You know, it's a bad thing to you, Cheryl McCollum, when your case gets torn away from you by the state attorney general who has the right to do it? Nancy, sometimes when they bogart one of these cases, it's either because they feel like something's not being done that should be done, or they want to add some federal charges to this. So again, if she kidnapped those children, if she did dispose of them in a federal park, then that's the type of thing that they're going to come in and they're going to take over. And they're going to hopefully get this thing across the finish line. You know, another issue is the money that Levi Page just brought up.

The life insurance policy for about $433,000 that the new husband, Chad Daybell, had on his wife, Tammy. Healthy as a horse, I might add. A young woman in her 40s preparing to run a marathon dies in her sleep? Just after cult mom orders a wedding dress and a wedding ring for herself on Amazon? Uh-uh. That's way, way too much of a coincidence. And there is no coincidence in criminal law i'm telling you 433 grand you know to ashley wilcott judge and trial lawyer court tv anchor follow the money yeah follow the money a there are too many coincidences in this case but b

i completely agree with you when you have a life insurance policy, especially with that huge amount of money, absolutely, to me, that goes to motive, which while it doesn't prove an element of a crime, it sure is important. The other thing I want to mention, Nancy, is one of the other reasons I want to add that perhaps federal charges may ensue is because we don't know, obviously, where these children are. And if they cross state lines, if something's happened to them and they moved them across state lines, then the feds have the right to get involved. And I just have to say one more thing. When a mother refuses to produce her children for a court order to show the court, yes, they're fine, they're good, everything's fine, something nefarious is afoot, period.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking about Lori Vallow, cult mom. Demands a lower bond? Really? Take a listen to our friends at CBS This Morning News. This is correspondent Jonathan Vigliotti. As many in the town of Rexburg demanded to know where are 7-year-old JJ and 17-year-old Tylee.

Vallow, who's charged with felony child abandonment, has revealed nothing about the fate of her kids. Investigators confirmed Tylee was last seen in Yellowstone National Park. There is no evidence of Tylee Ryan leaving this park. The FBI is now calling on everyone that visited here September 8th to look through their photos for signs of the family. Bail was set at $1 million. If released, Vallow will have

to wear an ankle bracelet. At no point during this hearing did Vallow or her attorney mention where the kids are. An ankle bracelet? What? An ankle bracelet? I mean, how can they even say that to you? Bobby Chacon, she's already absconded when police went because of a welfare check request by the grandparents. As they tell me, the cops go to the home. They can't find the children. Vallow makes up a story. The cops go back to their HQ. They go out on the street.

They look for the children. The children aren't where she says. They go back the next day. She's gone. I don't mean gone. I mean cleared out the furniture. Everything she's't where she says they go back the next day. She's gone. I don't mean gone. I mean, cleared out the furniture, everything she's moved. She left in the middle of an investigation and leaves the continental U.S. and heads to Hawaii. That is what happened. The thought of her getting bond is insane. What about it, Chacon? We already know her track

record. Why would we let her do it again? I have no idea. You know, Nancy, the two traditional bail issues were danger to the community and risk of flight. Well, she's already demonstrated an ability to flee. And although she wasn't charged at the time when she went to Hawaii, you can certainly make the argument that she has the means and the ability to flee and risk a flight. Whoa, you're technically correct, Bobby G. Cohn. She hasn't been charged yet. But cops have come to her doorstep looking for the children. The next day when they go back, she's gone.

Sure. You think that's a coincidence? Absolutely not. And, you know, the other thing to remember is, too, she was initially held at least part of the time on a contempt citation when she refused to produce the children. So I would hope that even if this judge, you know, makes the insane decision to release the bail. Awful. What was the rest of it? She will be held in contempt for still refusing to produce the children. And in that contempt

citation, she can remain incarcerated. Five charges, two felonies for failure to support or take care of her children that rise to felony level. It's called felony abandonment of child. Then there is contempt when she lied to police. There is contempt of court when she did not produce the children and come to court pursuant to a subpoena. And third, the allegation that she tried to get someone else to lie about the location of the children. Those are the five felonies that have been leveled against cult mom Lori Vallow. We know that newly obtained court documents from the Idaho Attorney General's Office and the county prosecutor's office show the AG is now taking over much of the case. Why, Joe Scott Morgan, do you think that's happening? I think it's a consolidation of the investigation. And what that means is bringing all of these

fragmented pieces. Nancy, we've got dead bodies from here down to Arizona. You know, if you count her brother that's dead, we've got what I believe is a serious, serious problem with a coroner in Rexburg that allowed that body to be buried without, you know, Tammy Daybell being thoroughly examined. And then they had to exhume her body down in Utah, and the Utah State ME's office has got nothing to work with but an embalmed remain. And, you know, it's a freak show is what it comes down to from a criminal investigation standpoint. And if they don't stem the bleeding right now, this whole thing could run off the tracks.

I think that's what the AG recognizes right now. Well, hold on, Joe Scott. I agree with a lot of what you said, but if the Idaho Attorney General snatches the case away from the county authorities, the Idaho AG has no power in Arizona or Utah. And I believe that you are, how should I say this,

putting perfume on a pig. Every time I've ever seen the AG take over a case is because it has been bungled and they've gotten complaints and people are starting to say, what the hay? Whether it's the coroner's office, I don't know what the problem is, but I know this. It is a bad sign when the AG takes your case away. Another, but everything else, I agree with you. I'm very curious about other people that have passed away. I recently learned that I believe it was Lori Vallow's sister died under suspicious circumstances many years ago.

I mean, the more I look into her background, the more dead bodies I find. I mean, Lori Vallow's older sister, Stacy Lynn Cox Cope, died age 31. Very few details known about her death, and the COD is unclear. And now, renewed interest in her sister's death. I mean, help me count up the dead people. Let's think this thing through. Levi Page, how many dead bodies do we have? And we're not saying she's responsible for all of these.

But dead bodies connected to Lori Vallow, so-called cult mom. And I take responsibility for that moniker. So we've got the dead sister, Stacy Lynn Cox Cope. No COD. Her brother. Yes. Hey, let's go in chronological order. Let's make it harder.

Let's go in chronological order. You've got the dead sister back in 98. Then you've got Joseph Ryan. That was husband number three, I think. He died. They claimed a heart attack, but nobody knows because he was cremated so quickly. Then you've got, who's next? Would it be her husband?

Yes, her husband, Chad Daybell, is next. Charles Vallow. I mean, excuse me, Charles Vallow, thank you. Then you've got Daybell's wife, Tammy Daybell. Then you've got... She had her brother before that. Yep. After the brother, some people say she gets him to shoot her husband dead.

Alex, the brother, is dead. So you've got the sister. You've got Joseph Ryan. You've got Vallow. You've got the brother, Alex. Then you've got Tammy Daybell. You've got another relative being shot at. And now are the children in the mix. That's seven bodies, Cheryl McCollum. Seven bodies connected to one person. Hold on. Cheryl's down again.

I'm having a problem with this, Joe Scott. Seven bodies connected to one woman. Yeah, yeah. It reminds me of the Ten Commandments where if you didn't have the blood on your door, you know, the angel of death is going to visit you. It's striking, you know, and we didn't even really, and I know you briefly mentioned it, but we talked about these attempts that had occurred. I think Brandon Boudreau was shot at and not killed. You know, and so there is a pattern that is developing here.

And for people that are in investigations, that's kind of how we make our living. We look for patterns in these events, both in the short term and in the long term. And boy, does she have a track record. It just goes on and on and on. My question is back to this jurisdictional issue. I think the feds are really going to have to step in here and begin to kind of put this together. And what Cheryl had said earlier is key here. And this goes back to Yellowstone.

This is federal property. This is federal property. So now you have brought the full weight and force of the federal government into this investigation. And right now, I think that's the best thing. You're right, Jessica Morgan. You're absolutely correct. All I have to say is this. Cult mom Lori Vallow and bond reduction don't mix.

I'm locking the doors. I'm hiding under the bed if this lady walks free. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart podcast