Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - ‘Cult Mom' Lori Vallow shows up to court sporting neon pink lipstick & mermaid curls, but refuses to reveal where her missing children are, JJ and Tylee

Episode Date: March 10, 2020

JJ Vallow and Tylee Ryan are still missing as "cult mom" Lori Vallow appears in court. Despite getting a lower bond, many bail bondsmen are refusing to work with Vallow, citing her as a flight risk. In the meantime, the question stands. Where are the children?Joining Nancy Grace today: Rich Robertson - Private Investigator, R3 Investigations, Tempe www.r3investigations.com Troy Slaten - Criminal Defense Attorney, Los Angeles California  Cloyd Steiger - 36 years Seattle Police Department, 22 years Homicide detective, Author "Seattles Forgotten Serial Killer-Gary Gene Grant" www.cloydsteiger.com Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, Author,"Blood Beneath My Feet" Caryn Stark - NYC Psychologist, www.carynstark.com Nate Eaton - reporter, East Idaho News dot com Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Nancy Grace is coming to Fox Nation. I want justice. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Available now only on Fox Nation. You know what? When you have two children missing and you're more worried about curling your hair and putting on neon pink lipstick and blue toenail polish than you are about reassuring all the family members and relatives that those children are okay that's a problem now defense attorneys will tell you that means absolutely nothing, but I disagree. Lori Vallow showed up in court in style, defiant, smiling, laughing, but never once revealing where are JJ and Tylee, her missing

children. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Did you see cult mom Lori Vallow in court? Because I sure did. And she was dressed for the occasion. She just didn't come to court. She came to court in style with curls cascading down her shoulders, bright hot pink lipstick on, a face full of makeup, pink handcuffs, and blue polished toenails.

But never once did she turn and look back at the 20 plus,, actually nearly 30 family relatives and friends searching for her children and say, they're okay, I'm their mother, I would never hurt them. Don't worry. Never. As a matter of fact, she came into the courtroom smiling, joking apparently with her lawyer, leaving the courtroom defiant chin up, shoulders squared, never a word about her missing children, JJ and Tylee. But what now? The bond has been lowered from $5 million to $1 million. That means somebody,

her husband, Chad Daybell, her fifth husband, could step up to the plate, knock home run, putting up $100,000 to get her out of jail. And then what? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. And first order of business, thank you for being with us. Take a listen to this. As many in the town of Rexburg demanded to know where are 7-year-old JJ and 17-year-old Tylee. Vallow, who's charged with felony child abandonment, has revealed nothing about the fate of her kids.

Investigators confirmed Tylee was last seen in Yellowstone National Park. There is no evidence of Tylee Ryan leaving this park. The FBI is now calling on everyone that visited here September 8th to look through their photos for signs of the family. As Vallow's husband Chad Daybell looked on, her defense attorney complained Vallow has been hounded by the masses. She cannot go anywhere without cameras and people scrutinizing her every single move. Also speaking out, JJ's grandparents Kay and Larry Woodcock, whose demand for a welfare check launched the search. Right now, I only have one question. Where are the kids? Where are the kids? Where are the kids? Bring them home. And bail was set at $1 million. If released, Vallow will have to wear an ankle bracelet.

At no point during this hearing did Vallow or her attorney mention where the kids are. You were hearing our friends at CBS This Morning News. That was Jonathan Vigliotti. Wow. Still no word about where the children are. This as bond has been posted, reduced by the judge from five mil to one million. What does that mean? And where are the children?

Are they dead or alive? Joining me in All-star panel to break it down and put it back together again first of all renowned defense lawyer and you can take everything he says with a box of salt troy slayton my friend from la cloyd steiger 36 years seattle pd 22 years homicide author seattle's forgotten serial killer, Gary Gene Grant. Floyd, I haven't forgotten him. Karen Stark, New York psychologist, joining us from Manhattan. You can find her at karenstark.com.

That's with a C. And right now to Nate Eaton, reporter with eastidahonews.com. Nate, I want to start with a bombshell that I'm on to right now. According to sources, Lori Vallow's brother, remember him, Nate? Alex Cox has been linked. Now follow me, stay with me, Nate, to the death of Chad Daybell's wife. Remember her, Tammy? She's in her 40s training for a marathon and dies in her sleep. Is it true, Nate Eaton, that Tammy Daybell, Lori Vallow's current husband, dead wife, who was worth about $353,000 life insurance to Chad Daybell, said on her Facebook that somebody took a shot at her

while she was standing in her driveway just before she passed away in her sleep. True, not true, Nate Eaton. That is true. That is the police report that she called in. She said she got home one night, Nancy. It was dark. It was Octoberober 10 days before her death she got out of her car nate nate nate nate slow down guys i'm just hearing in my

ear from jackie that we are now being joined by special guest rich robertson private investigator of our three investigations why is he special not that you, Nate Eaton. You're very special to me. But he was hired to work on the Lori Vallow case. I'm going to be right with you, Rich. Thank you for being with us. Nate Eaton, how can you be so calm? You're like, yeah, somebody took a shot at her. What? Don't think it through, Nate Eaton. Remember, Lori, and I don't want to be inside baseball here, but remember Lori Vallow's niece, Boudreaux? Her husband says somebody took a shot

at him. Now somebody's taking a shot at Tammy Daybell? This is not normal, Nate. People don't just get shot at in the driveway. No, no, it's not normal at all. You don't sound very upset. Go ahead.

Back before all this broke, Tammy's getting home. She gets out of her car. They live in the country. This doesn't happen, and there's a masked man standing in her driveway firing what she believed was a paintball gun. So she yelled for Chad. He came running out, and the man took off. They filed a police report. The police went out to the house. They did some investigating and

they believed at the time that it was a prankster who showed up in the driveway firing this gun and that it was a paintball gun. It wasn't until 10 days later when Tammy died in her sleep, as you mentioned, they called it natural, but now they're calling it suspicious that they thought there might be more to that gunman in the driveway. And then, of course, as you mentioned, why did they think it was a paint gun? Why would it be a paint gun? Well, because based on how they thought it was a paintball gun misfiring, possibly because

no bullets or anything actually came out. It was like an air soft kind of noise. How do we know no bullets came out? Because she didn't think any bullets came out? Well, she didn't think. She wasn't hit. She told police she thought it was a paintball gun. She actually told the guy, according to her Facebook post, she said, what are you doing?

Get out of here. This isn't funny. This isn't a prank. It doesn't sound like a prank to me. Nate, I'm going to circle back to you on Alex Cox, but right now, Rich Robertson, private investigator, R3 Investigations there in Tempe. Rich Robertson, great to talk to you. I've been reading about you. I've been studying you and researching you. How did you first get tangled up with cult mom, Lori Daybell? Well, I didn't get tied up with her directly.

I was hired by Brandon Boudreaux, who was himself the target. This is so tangled up. We need a flow chart for this. Oh, yeah. Brandon Boudreaux is married to Lori Vallow's niece, or was married. Okay, go ahead. That's correct. Melanie, that's correct. Melanie, that's correct. And he himself was the target of a drive-by shooting, a drive-by shooting that he thought initially was a paintball gun. But he also was outside of his house when somebody in a vehicle took a shot at him. And in this case, it actually struck his car so was it a paintball

he initially thought it was a paintball just from the sound of it uh but realized very quickly when it was a bullet that hit the upper window frame of his car let me understand something rich robertson with me along with nate eaton with EastIdahoNews.com. Rich, PI, R3 Investigations in Tempe. Rich, hold on. Let me understand this. Both the, I guess you would say, the nephew-in-law, Brandon Boudreau, and Tammy Daybell think it was a paint gun. But it turned out with Boudreau, it's not a paint gun but it turned out with Boudreaux it's not a paint gun the significance of this is this is all tied in allegedly to Lori Vallow's brother who's now dead too

Alex Cox so Rich wasn't the assailant in Boudreaux's case driving Charles Vallow's vehicle? Yes, that's how he initially suspected that Alex Cock was involved because he recognized the vehicle that this shot came from. And it was a gray-green kind of Jeep Wrangler with a Texas license plate. And he recognized that as being a vehicle that Charles Vallow had, you know, he'd actually bought. Here's the problem. Here's the problem.

Those children, Tylee and JJ, that are missing are the only ones that really know what happened to Charles Vallow. Alex Cox, the brother, Lori Vallow's brother, killed the husband, Charles Vallow. And those children are the only witnesses. They were hung. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Everybody, for those of you just joining us, this is Crime Stories. I'm Nancy Grace, and I want to thank you for being with us. We've been talking a lot of inside baseball on the Lori Vallow case, but let's bring it all home. How in the hay did we get right here, right now?

Take a listen to our friend Gretchen Parsons at KTVB 7, Boise, Idaho. Police say while they found Lori and Chad in Kauai over the weekend, there's no evidence that her children were ever there. Hawaii police served Lori with a court order that says she has five days to physically produce the kids. Chad, where are Lori's kids? there. Hawaii police ser court order that says she produce the kids. Chad, w made eaten with East Idaho this weekend, right after Vallow and Chad Daybell w

one for this black forwar was driving around the is their kawaii town home where th living. They've been miss have nothing to say. You' Hawaii. Police don't know been in Hawaii. Laurie an quiet before ducking into

over the weekend. There's country praying for your for you guys. Why don't you give us answers? That's great. That's great. That's great that they're praying for you, praying for your kids. What? Okay, you were just hearing the voice of Nate Eaton, eastidahonews.com.

Nate, that's you running along beside her going, hey, hey, hey, hey, where are your children? Here's the deal. She had an opportunity in court in the last days to turn around and tell all the family that were gathered there behind the prosecution, I might add, the children are okay. She said absolutely nothing. There's two choices, Nate. Either they're tucked away with that doomsday cult group she was sucked into or they're dead. Nate Eaton, bring us up to date. What's happening right now?

Well, right now, Lori is sitting in jail. She has not posted that million dollars bail, but she is hoping to be bailed out. The fear today, though, Nancy, is that a lot of bail bondsmen don't want to touch her. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. The fear of who? I'm not afraid at all that she won't get out of jail. I'm afraid she will get out of jail. Oh, exactly. Most people in our community don't want to see her walking free, especially with those two children being missing. So she's sitting in jail. The bail bondsman, they don't want to take the risk of possibly putting up the rest of her bail and getting her out of jail.

So she still sits locked up. They were hoping to get her out, you know, days ago, and that hasn't happened. And then, of course, the search for JJ and Tylee continues with no solid leads as of today. I mean, Rich Robertson, PI, R3 Investigations in Tempe. Rich, when the FBI releases the last known photo of your children. You got a problem. Think about it, Rich. She, Lori Vallow, cult mom, and that murderous brother of hers, you know he had an aggravated assault case, conviction for tasing Joseph Ryan, her third husband, right? Right. Aggravated assault conviction for tasing her third husband.

And then the fourth husband, he shoots dead. Now, I was looking at that scenario, Rich, and this is what I've been able to glean, and you tell me if I'm wrong. My mind is open. I want to know more. That the dad, Vallow, comes to the house to get JJ. I guess visitation.

I can tell from the body cam when the cops get there that the house is already almost empty. There's not a lot of stuff in the house. That tells me they're clearing out already. Also, the dad gets out, Vallow, to get JJ, and an altercation ensues with Vallow, Lori Vallow's brother, Alex. And then the little girl, Tylee, runs and gets a bat and gives it to Vallow.

That tells me that the children were on Vallow's side, not the brother. Vallow takes the bat to Alex, and Alex shoots him dead. At least that's the story we're getting. What do you know, Rich Robertson? Well, I believe the story is that she brought it to Alex and Alex shoots him dead. At least that's the story we're getting. What do you know, Rich Robertson? Well, I believe the story is that she brought it to Alex. Ah, okay. She brought the bat to Alex and that Charles took it away from, tried to, he took it away from Tylee before she was able to give it to Alex. And the story was coming from Tylee and Alex only. So who knows what the truth is?

And as you pointed out, the only, frankly, the only witness to this whole July situation who's left at the moment is Lori Vallow. You know, I'd be curious to find out if she had ever taken those children up to Yellowstone before the day that they go missing. Joining you right now, Troy Slayton, renowned criminal defense attorney out of L.A. Troy, what got into that judge lowering that five mil bond to one million. The judge was following the law. She's only been charged with two felony counts of desertion. She hasn't been charged with a capital crime. There's no evidence of a murder. And the only purpose of bail is to ensure somebody's return to court. So I think the

judge had to do what the law says, which is set reasonable bail. And $5 million is completely unreasonable given the charges. Cloyd Steiger with me, 36 years Seattle PD. I knew that's what Troy Slate was going to say. I actually laid a trap for him, Cloyd, because you and I know that the prongs that are looked at by a judge when setting bail or bond, as I call it, is will they commit another crime? I mean, this woman has such a string of dead bodies behind her. She needs to be in solitary. Number two, will they come back for court dates?

And here's the problem. She's already absconded once, Cloyd Steiger. She lied to cops, allegedly, about where the children were. She allegedly enlisted somebody else to lie to cops, Melanie Gibbons. And she disobeyed a court order to show up in court.

So why would you give bond? It's not just about the dangerousness or the likelihood of fleeing. It's she's already spitting the judge's face by not showing up to court already. So why would you lower bond? Well, you know, again, I'm not a lawyer, but I do see the side of that. She's only charged with these two crimes, but there's so much smoke. And like you said, she's absconded already.

She left the day after the police made the welfare check and ended up in Hawaii. And then she ignored a court order. What's to keep her from just absconding again? I believe that's probably what would happen if they let her go. Right now, Bell Bondsman's apparently not cooperating with Lori, as she says, wants to be called Miss Daybell. As a matter of fact, listen to KTVB 7 reporter Misty Englert about what happened in court. The first matter of business today is the judge asked Lori whether she wanted to go by Vallow or Daybell, to which she responded, Mrs. Daybell. Now, also in court today, the judge lowered her bond from $5 million

down to $1 million. As part of that discussion, prosecution mentioned the fact that both JJ and Tylee received Social Security benefits, and Lori continued to receive those payments even after the kids disappeared and she moved to Hawaii. During court, Lori was seen smiling a few times and seemed very at ease through the whole process. After the hearing, her older son, Colby Ryan, said he doesn't really recognize his mom now. She can't continue to hide. She cannot continue to hide from me.

The kids have rights too, not just her. The kids have rights, too. That's right. The kids have rights, too. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking about the so-called cult mom, Lori Zallo. She is called cult mom because she has, within a few weeks after her third, excuse me, fourth husband being shot dead, she remarries to Chad Daybell. To Rich Robertson, PI with R3 Investigations in Tempe, Rich, tell me about the cult that Lori Vallow and new husband Chad Daybell are part of. Well, we've been,

cult is kind of broad term. The folks that Chad Daybell seemed to be some kind of a leader of a small group that included Lori Bahalo and her niece, Melanie, and a number of their friends and a number of people in Rexburg. They seem to be a subgroup of a larger kind of fringe prepper group. And all of those folks... Wait, did you just say they're split off a fringe group?

It's kind of like Off-Broadway, then there's Off-Off-Broadway, then there's Off-Off-off-Broadway. So you're telling me this group... They seem to be a fringe group of a fringe group. Okay. And I've read the divorce papers that were filed by now-dead husband Charles Vallow, and in his divorce papers, he says to you, Nate Eaton,

eastidahonews.com, that Lori Vallow told him she's already married and, what does she say, eternally sealed with the ancient prophet Moroni, which is part of the Mormon religion, and that she has been chosen to lead the chosen 144,000 people that are going to get to go to heaven. So, you know, Jackie, I'm pretty sure that rules us out. I don't think we're going to make it. If there's only 144,000 people going to heaven since the beginning of time,

I don't think we're in there, Jackie. Of course, I'll speak for myself. She's going to lead them to the New Jerusalem after the end war of the world. And if he, Charles Vallow, gets in her way, she'll kill him. I guess he did file for a divorce, Nate Eaton. Yeah, well, Charles was so worried that he went before the judge and said, I want custody of the kids because my wife's talking like this, that she is a goddess, that this is her mission, that she is sent here to earth to usher in the second coming of Jesus Christ. And Nancy, the world will end on July 22nd of this

year. And so a lot of people wonder if she was preparing for this second coming by doing something with her children, by, you know, maybe taking dramatic actions so that they would be prepared for the second coming. And I think in the coming days, as court documents come out and as we get ready for the next hearing, we'll be learning more just about what she told others and what investigators know as well. Karen Stark, my longtime colleague and friend, something just hit me based on what Nate Eaton, EastIdahoNews.com said. Karen, you and I have covered many, many cases together. You're a shrink. I'm a former prosecutor. And we've covered a lot of mothers that kill their children.

And many of them do so for misplaced religious beliefs, such as, I don't want them to live in a world of sin, so I'll just go ahead and bash their head in with a rock right now and let them go to heaven pure. And I'm talking about Deanna Lacey. Then you had Andrea Yates who drowned all her children to send them to a better place and on and on and on. We know Lori Vallow was so deeply involved with this cult.

All along, I've secretly believed Karen Stark that there's a very good chance she's got them tucked away alive because she seems so unconcerned about where they are or their safety. And I'm sure the cops would have looked at their cell phone records to see if she's calling someone and checking on them and then trace that number what do you make of what you're hearing in those divorce papers karen stark as it relates to the safety of the children well it sounds like it seriously does nancy the kinds of things that we heard before it sounds like religious conviction in something that would never make sense to us. But they begin to see it's psychosis, but psychosis in this case perhaps combined with some kind of strong belief that this is what will definitely happen on July 22nd and that she is placed here to be a part of that.

What frightens me is if it has to do with the people that are going and some of them are dead, whatever this concoction is, then her children may not be alive. And actually, she would seem very smug and defiant because she would believe that she is doing what's best for her children you know i noticed in court nate eaton that she seems very nonchalant uh smiling have you seen the shots of her in mrs texas because you if you haven't please go to crime online.com because i was stunned she looked looked awesome in her evening gown, in her bikini. She's got the body of a 25-year-old, I guess. She looked really beautiful. What I'm saying is she strutted her stuff again in court when we're there about her missing children.

And it just seems so misplaced to me, Nate Eaton. Yeah, a lot of people said when she walked in that she seemed to almost enjoy the attention. She didn't look back at Chad, her husband, at all. She walked right past the grandparents of her missing kid, little JJ. She sat down. She smiled. She chatted with her attorney. I saw her several times rolling her eyes when the charges were being read out i think the most startling thing people were were surprised by was her bright red lipstick which we believe was given to her by pink red yeah i guess it depends on together you you see better colors than i do nancy but i'll tell you that that uh you know she sat down

right away and it didn't seem to really have a care in the world and just seemed to kind of enjoy the attention, which was odd considering that, you know, we've talked about. These kids are still gone and her brother's dead and her ex-husband's dead and her current husband's ex-wife or former wife is dead. Well, you know what else is odd? Troy Slayton, defense lawyer out of L.A. Troy Slayton, we heard her defense attorney whining that, oh, she's so famous now. It's tortuous for her. But yeah, when she came into court, she was, as my husband says, all dolled up. Every single movement, if she were to be let out, is going to be followed by the paparazzi, just like any Hollywood celebrity here in Los Angeles. So there are many... Now, wait a minute, Troy.

L.A. is a whole different world. I don't think you can compare anywhere else in the U.S. to L.A. Hi, guys. Nancy Grace here. We have all worked so hard to bring to you Don't Be a Victim, Fighting Back Against America's Crime Wave, a brand new book. After interviewing literally hundreds of crime victims and police, we put our knowledge into Don't Be a Victim. You can pre-order now. Go to CrimeOnline.com, pre-order now,

and know that portions of our proceeds goes to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Welcome back, everybody. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. First order of business. Thank you for being with us. Take a listen to our friend Kim Powell at 3TV CBS 5 Arizona.

Lori Vallow's son, Colby Ryan, saw his mom for the first time in months as she walked across a courtroom in handcuffs and orange and white stripes. Just seeing her and trying to walk eyes, just trying to get a connection to your mom, SHE WAS ABLE TO GET HER CHILDREN TO THEIR HOME. SHE WAS ABLE TO GET THEM TO THE HOME. SHE WAS ABLE TO GET THEM TO THE HOME. SHE WAS ABLE TO GET THEM TO THE HOME.

SHE WAS ABLE TO GET THEM TO THE HOME. SHE WAS ABLE TO GET THEM TO THE HOME. SHE WAS ABLE TO GET THEM TO THE HOME. Her attorney argued for her bond of $5 million to be lowered for several reasons, claiming that none of the charges against her include violence and she has ties to Idaho. A $5 million bond is unreasonable, it's astronomically excessive, and is the functional equivalent of holding Lori without bond.

The state prosecutor fought back, noting that Lori left Idaho once she was contacted by law enforcement about her kids, JJ and Tylee. This case didn't start as a criminal case, Your Honor. It started as a report of two missing children who are still missing. Right now, Lori Vallow sits in a jailhouse because apparently at least two bail bondsmen have refused to help her with their bond. This is how it works. In most jurisdictions, you have to put down 10% of the bond. So if it's a million-dollar bond, 10% of that, $100,000. You've got to secure that with either cash, collateral, such as a home, that equals up the rest.

So in this case, it'd have to be $900,000. I want to go straight out to Rich Robertson, private investigator, R3 Investigations. You can find him at r3investigations.com. Rich Robertson, so it's the end of the world, and I'm not mocking their beliefs because I don't like it when people mock my religion. I'm a Methodist, and I don't like it at all. So I'm not mocking them. I don't believe it, but I'm not mocking them. Rich Robertson, you're intimately familiar with this case. What do you think happened to JJ and Tylee? That's certainly the $64 million question. It's, as your psychologist was pointing out,

we're trying to come up with rational explanations for irrational acts. And for all we know, they're hiding out in a cave someplace for safety. Safety from who? Waiting till the end of the world. But there's got to be somebody taking care of them. If she's got them stowed away, Rich Robertson. Somebody without a TV, apparently, because nobody's seen that. Or somebody that doesn't care what's on the TV.

Rich, there's only two possibilities. Either she and that brother of hers, he's dead now, and I'd like to get the results on that autopsy of his. Either she and her brother took them out to Yellowstone and killed them, or they rendezvoused with someone and that someone has the children and that someone is most likely connected to their doomsday cult so i would think the cops are tracing every cell phone finding out if they're using burner phones to find out about the children chad daybell turns around

to people and goes they're okay he said to reporters I believe it was. The children are safe. So, I mean, it makes me think there's something nefarious going on because she won't tell where they are. Well, or that she's answering to a higher power than man's law. You know, it's, who knows? We don't know what's going on inside her head or the others. I mean, she'd hide out the kids while she waits in Hawaii for them. Yeah, I mean, if they're in a cave and she's living it up, getting room service in Hawaii, you know, that's quite the dichotomy.

But Troy Slayton, here's my concern. I mean, you look at her, she seems like she's not worried about the children at all. That would mean, are they okay or have they already gone to heaven? But, Troy, how many times have I said to you specifically when you don't know a horse look at his or in this case her track record you've got two dead husbands and I still want answers on Joseph Ryan that's husband number three who died of an apparent heart attack and got cremated so fast everybody's head was spinning. That's Ryan, and that would be Tylee's bio dad.

Then you've got Vallow, Charles Vallow. He's dead at the hands of her brother, who also has an ag assault for chasing another husband. So you've got Tammy Daybell dead, Alex Cox dead, Charles Vallow dead, and Joseph Ryan dead. That's a track record, Troy Slayton. That is a track record. I'm in court all the time when prosecutors like you, Nancy, say to the jury, well, where there's smoke, there's fire.

I didn't just say that. That's not what I said. I mean, Jackie, did I say anything about smoke and where there's smoke, there's fire. I didn't just say that. That's not what I said. I mean, Jackie, did I say anything about smoke and fire? Did I? That's a yes, no. No. No. No.

So, Nancy, just because there may be suspicious circumstances. For dead bodies. And dead bodies, she has not been accused of those crimes. Mm-hmm. And she has not been charged with those crimes. Mm-hmm. And she is not a suspect of those crimes and she has not been charged with those crimes and she is not a suspect in those crimes. Well, I don't know about that. I don't know about that. So she should be.

I know they were worried. Authorities were worried enough that they dug up Tammy Daybell, who died in her sleep after somebody took a shot at her in the driveway. That has nothing to do with her. Oh, okay. She married Daybell's husband two weeks later. You're putting too much on, oh, she didn't look over at this person.

She didn't look back at her family. No, I'm looking at the dead bodies, Troy Slayton. If she's been investigated for a crime... Have you ever even been around a dead body at a murder scene? Have you ever been at a murder scene before the body was removed, Troy Slayton? I have not.

Well, let me tell you something. It's something you never forget, and we don't have just one dead body. We have four dead bodies, and we're never going to know what really happened to Joseph Ryan because he got cremated like that. She is doing what her attorneys are telling her to do, which is concentrate on the matter at hand. She can't look back at people in the gallery and start talking to them or give signs of reassurance to her family. How about her son? Her son.

Her son is there in court. Anything that she says or does is going to be examined by the court and could be used against her in a court of law. She's doing exactly what she needs to be doing. Nate Eaton, EastIdahoNews.com. Did I ever tell you about the time that my baby, I've got two, they're both 12, John David and Lucy. John David was lost very briefly on a Disney cruise. And when I saw him at a distance, I felt, I ran. I ran to him and got down on my knees and grabbed him. Now think about it. She had one of her oldest child in court, her son. She sees him in court for the first time in the Lord only knows how long. And there was nothing.

No, I love you. No, blow a kiss. No, attempted hug. Nothing. Yeah. And he came all the way up from Arizona to Idaho in hopes of talking to his mother and we talked with him after the court he said that i just want to sit down i want to talk to her he said the very first thing he'll ask her is where's my sister where's my brother where's jj where's tylee mom and as far as you know that meeting did not happen we do know that she is communicating with chad he's allowed to video chat with her every day on the video chat system. He can't meet with her face-to-face, but he has been phoning in with her, video chatting with her. So we do know that that's happening. Is that the Morgan County Jail? Morgan County? Madison.

Madison, thank you. And she can meet in person with clergy and lawyers but video chat with everybody else. You know that's being recorded, right? Oh, everything's being monitored. You're right. And you would think that law enforcement is closely paying attention to what they might say between the two of them. And they could possibly use that as intelligence. Husband-wife privilege. They can't do a thing with it. That just means they can't come into court.

That doesn't mean they can't eavesdrop. Okay, here's the deal, guys. These two children who are defenseless are either tucked away with some doomsday cult or they're dead. And only one person knows the answer, and that's Lori Vallow, former Miss Texas contestant. We wait as justice unfolds, and we pray for their safety. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.