Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - "Curious what it would be like to stab someone,” drama-student-killer "over-acted" with butcher knife

Episode Date: April 12, 2019

A University of Hartford drama student who allegedly stabbed two classmates told police he was “curious what it would be like to stab someone.” He would later says it was his emotions getting the ...best of him while acting out a scene.And... Cold cases cracked.Nancy's expert panel is:Ashley Willcott, Atlanta juvenile judge & lawyerDr. Carole Leiberman, Forensic psychiatristSteven Lampley, former detectiveJohn Lemley, Crime Stories reporterSheryl McCollum, Cold Case Research Institute directorJoseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, author of "Blood Beneath My FeetDr. Bethany Marshall, Los Angeles psycho analystNicole DeBorde, Former Prosecutor/Criminal Defense lawyerRobyn Walensky, Crime Stories reporter, author of "Beautiful Life?: The CSI Behind the Casey Anthony Trial & My Observations"  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Starting point is 00:00:00 This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Pamela Cajones grew up the second youngest of eight siblings in a big farm family outside Stillwater. But the 25-year-old wanted to see more of the world. And she thought by joining the Navy, she would possibly be able to do this. Kahanis made it through two months of boot camp in Florida. Then came August 5th. A driver found her body in the lawn of an empty house,
Starting point is 00:00:40 a half hour north of the training base in Orlando. Her brothers and sisters spent the next 34 years in agony. And many times I would think, you know, okay, if I say a prayer and I lay here still tonight, I'll be directed to what happened to her. And it just never comes. A beautiful young female Navy recruits, vicious murder. The Minnesota woman, Pamela Kahane's just 25 years old, beaten, strangled dead, just two days after she graduates from Orlando Naval Training Center. That was August. Her white uniform was found strewn just inches away from her dead body. But as the time ticked by, there was no answer. The family distraught friends came under the microscope. Who killed Pamela Kahane? Joining me in all-star panel, first of all, newcomer Nicole DeBoer, former prosecutor,
Starting point is 00:01:33 criminal defense attorney. Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute, CSI expert. Joseph Scott Morgan, forensic, professor at Jacksonville State University and author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Renowned California psycho analyst, Dr. Bethany Marshall. But right now to Robin Walensky, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter and author of Beautiful Life, the CSI behind the Casey Anthony trial. To Robin Walensky, what can you tell me about Pamela? Because her body is found. She's dead, beaten, and strangled. Her uniform is found very close to her body. I take that to mean she was assaulted as well, sex assaulted?
Starting point is 00:02:19 Well, Nancy, she was found with her underwear on. So they have never said that there was a rape in this case. Wait, wait, wait. Please just wait. Wait, wait. I'm sorry, Robin Walensky. I normally agree with every single thing you say, but Cheryl McCollum, please, can you help me here? Let's give everybody a reality check.
Starting point is 00:02:38 A woman is found. Her clothes are off. The fact that her underwear are on, that means nothing. Unless she's driving around in nothing but her underwear, and I don't think that's true. So when you've got a lady and her clothes are off, Cheryl, of course she was assaulted. It certainly would make you think sexual, but Nancy, here's the thing. She's wearing a naval uniform.
Starting point is 00:03:02 Maybe it was simply somebody that didn't think she was fit to wear it. Okay, Cheryl, I'm trying to be nice to you because today's your birthday, but you say a woman has her, let me get this, Robin, her clothes are stripped off except for her underwear?
Starting point is 00:03:21 That's a yes, no. That's correct. The uniform is, Uniform gone. Uniform laying beside her so cheryl your made-up theory is that someone thought she didn't deserve to be in the armed forces so they beat her killed her strangled her and ripped off her uniform is that what you're saying i'm saying that's a possibility if she in fact fact, were not raped. Okay.
Starting point is 00:03:45 So help me out, Dr. Bethany Marshall, because apparently I'm not speaking plain English. Because when you find a dead woman's body and their clothes are ripped off, of course it's sexual. Nancy, my understanding was that she was bludgeoned, that there was semen on the side of her underwear. There's a possibility she was killed somewhere else and then dumped there. What other motivation is there other than a sex assault? We don't know of any intimate relationship she was in. I don't think she had a husband or a boyfriend there, so this doesn't seem like domestic homicide.
Starting point is 00:04:20 It doesn't seem like a kidnap. Nobody was taking her somewhere so they could have her all to themselves. No, she was accosted, assaulted. There was semen and she was dumped in a field. Nancy, this has sex written all over it. But of course, you know. Well, you may call that sex, Bethany Marshall. You're a psychoanalyst. You know a lot more about this field than I do, but I call that attack. That doesn't sound like sex to me because the word sex means to me suggests that it's consensual. And I certainly don't think that she would be found bludgeoned face down with her clothes ripped off if it were consensual. But you know what?
Starting point is 00:04:58 That's just me. All right. So at least you and I agree. Joseph Scott Morgan, are you going to argue with me about this you don't think that the fact that she's stripped down dead that means anything does that mean nothing to anybody but me oh no i think that there's a strong sexual component here uh i've worked serial killings where their serial killer would have sex with the body and then put the underwear back on the body but okay that will give me something to think about as I go about my day.
Starting point is 00:05:27 All right? That they kill somebody and rape them after the death or then redress them after the death. You know who did that, right? A lot of people don't know this. Ted Bundy. They think he was just this dashing lawyer wannabe, handsome, charming, blah, blah, that would go around and pick at women and then bludgeon them.
Starting point is 00:05:49 No, he was a complete freak. Joe Scott Morgan, isn't it true? You know what, let me go to Cheryl McCollum on this one. Miss, maybe they took her uniform off because they didn't think she should be in the armed forces. Cheryl, I'm going to try to pretend that never happened with you and go forward as if nothing went wrong. Cheryl, Ted Bundy, isn't it true that on many of his victims he would, after he
Starting point is 00:06:10 raped them and murdered them, would bathe them, would fix their hair would put on makeup and redress them Absolutely, he stays many scenes after the fact he spent a lot of time with his victims afterwards, no doubt about it I think spending time, once again Cheryl, I'm going to get you another cup of coffee.
Starting point is 00:06:27 Spending time with a victim, the body's dead. It's not like you're chatting and spending time with somebody. You're redressing them and applying hair and makeup. That's a little different than, quote, spending time with somebody, plus they're dead. Correct. What I meant was, I'm trying to be very clear, he spent time with the corpse after the fact. He did that. He dressed them.
Starting point is 00:06:50 He positioned them. He fixed their hair. He repositioned their clothing. Absolutely, he did. Can I also mention to you, Nicole DeBoard, to let the hazing begin, Nicole DeBoard, her bra was found three days later, about 200 feet from where her body was found. No, it certainly sounds like there is a sexual assault component. And I agree with you, that's not about sex, that's about violence. So this is definitely, in my opinion, a very nasty attack. Horrible, horrible attack. And I'm looking at
Starting point is 00:07:25 her picture right now. I'm talking about a beautiful young Navy recruit, Pamela Kahane's murder in the Orlando area. Now, investigators had found DNA and they tested it and tested it and tested it. Never got a match to To Robin Walensky, the family beside themselves. What happened? Well, that's right, Nancy. Pamela was from a small town called Stillwater, Minnesota. She was very far away from home. She had wanted to see the country and possibly the world. And this is why she was in the Navy to begin with, and she was stationed at the Orlando Naval Training Center. And her body was actually found outside of an abandoned house in Sanford, which is also in the Orlando area. You know what this is reminding me of, and I'm going to go to
Starting point is 00:08:18 you on this, Cheryl McCollum, because I think you and Joe Scott can definitely identify with what I'm about to say. As Robin Walensky was describing this young 25-year-old, Pamela Kahanes, coming from this small town in Minnesota, and she joins the Navy. My dad was in the Navy thinking she was going to see the world. And she ends up dead on the side of the road with her clothes ripped off. And to make matters worse, they can't catch the killer. I'm just thinking because Cheryl, Joe Scott, we three come from an area where I came from. There's nothing but pine trees and soybean fields as far as you can see, red dirt.
Starting point is 00:09:00 And the thought that there was something beyond rural Bibb County, I mean, for many, many years, that never dawned on me. And then I realized there was a big world out there. And Pamela, just 25 years old, ends up dead, face down, bludgeoned. And they can't find her killer. Now, take a listen to our friend at News 6 Orlando, reporter Jerry Askin, and the victim's family. Big relief tonight for Pamela Cajonis' family. Just joy, just wonderful. A detective flew to Minnesota today, surprising her family with this news.
Starting point is 00:09:41 When she came and sat us down and said they got him, I was jumping out of the chair. I just, I couldn't believe it. Sheriff Lima saying it's not clear why Cajones was killed, but said genealogy research helped them track down Garner from his DNA. We can now say that we've put closure to this thing, this horrible, horrible tragedy, and the person who's responsible is not out there walking the streets crime stories with nancy grace to joseph scott morgan this is what they had. She had been shopping, excited about ending her recruit ship and moving into the Navy.
Starting point is 00:10:33 She had been shopping, but all of her shopping bags from the day before were laying around her, including about $500 in traveler's checks. Everything was there and accounted for. So it wasn't a robbery. There was a blue cellophane on her right shoulder, a pubic hair on her left shoulder, not her own, semen stain on her underwear, and it matched the DNA profile of scrapings found under her fingernails. Yellow carpet fibers were clinging to the waistband of her pants. And as you will recall to Joe Scott Morgan, the first time that fiber analysis was used, was admitted into court in our country, was in Atlanta with the Atlanta serial killings.
Starting point is 00:11:12 And the way that happened was a man, a boy from very young to upper teens found dead, all fitting the same general description. And finally, the only connection was fibers, fibers from the carpet of a car and fibers ultimately from the killer, Wayne Williams home. These fibers cracked the case. In this case, we see yellow fibers on the back of her waistband, which means to me that she was assaulted on yellow carpet or her body was moved from yellow carpet. More likely the first is particularly on the waistband of her pants, nowhere else on those pants. Joe Scott Morgan explained to me how DNA, very akin to the Golden State Killer case, cracked this case wide open. The fascinating thing about this case, Nancy, is as with all forensics cases,
Starting point is 00:12:11 is that you want connectivity. In this particular case, as you mentioned, they did find semen stains. One of the problems that they encountered at that time is there was no DNA database to go to. And so in this particular case, they built a profile of the killer or who they thought might be the killer based upon a genealogy, a genealogy that could stretch back a number of years and look at family connections through the tree. The problem with this old semen like this that you have is sometimes it'll degrade, okay, and it won't be as viable as it was, say, back all those years ago. So if they get a partial off of that, they can put it in the ballpark, and then they can zero in on a suspect. In this
Starting point is 00:12:55 particular case, they were able to get a viable sample, a fresh sample from him, and just confirm what they already suspect. I want you to take a listen to our friend at WJXT News 4 Jacksonville. This is Ashley Hardy. The Seminole County Sheriff says had it not been for the actions of Thomas Garner back in 1984, Pamela Cajenas would have celebrated her 60th birthday this year. Garner went before a judge yesterday showing no emotion, but while investigators have not said what led up to the murder, it was a murder the sheriff described as brutal. A strangulation marks around her neck, physical damage to her face, which suggested a struggle. I know that this woman, the victim, 25-year-old Pamela Kahanes, was one of eight children from Minnesota. She was seeking a new, exciting life then from small small town Minnesota, and what she got was murdered.
Starting point is 00:13:48 Semen stains found on her underwear. So to you, Robin Walensky, what can you tell me about the guy who matches up to the DNA in the semen? Well, it turns out this guy, his name is Thomas Garner, he's 59, was living in Jacksonville, and he was a dental hygienist. And Nancy, how they actually got him was once they created that DNA profile that's been discussed, they had a really good idea of who they were looking for. And they were kind of tracking him, and he dropped some personal items in a trash bag that were retrieved by the detectives. And it was a match. $700 billion to one that it was him, the dental hygienist. Okay, that's the kind of numbers that I love to tell the jury.
Starting point is 00:14:37 $700 billion to one. Now, let me talk about what she just said. Nicole DeBoer, former prosecutor, now criminal defense attorney, Nicole. So this is what I'm hearing. And Robin, jump in if I'm wrong. With the genealogy, and I'm just, let's just say ancestry.com. Okay. But very often they use a public genealogy, not a private genealogy. So what happens is you don't just go through and you find the perp. The perp most likely has not tried to find out who his great great great great great great grandmother is in Ireland. All right it's going
Starting point is 00:15:10 to be one of the perp's relatives that has used the genealogy site. So they go in and they get a familial family match and so you know you've got the family of the perp then they have to do a lot of gyrations and go for instance all the way back to ancestors and then come back down through the dna chain to find the who they think is the perp but then they have to get his dna so they do a stakeout so they watch the guy they watch him discard a mcdonald's coffee cup or eat a piece of pizza and they get the pizza crust that he threw away because that's abandoned property, Nicole. They don't need a warrant. So you watch your target and then you get anything that they've touched, a stamp, a coffee cup, any piece of pizza has been done. And that's how they get the DNA, right?
Starting point is 00:16:04 That's exactly right. You got it exactly right. And, you know, all of these people participating in these various ancestry programs so they can find their lineage are really helping add to the database for law enforcement. So bottom line on this to Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute. Cheryl, how much DNA does it take? Because I know for a fact, one perp was caught because he, as I said, ate pizza.
Starting point is 00:16:31 The leftovers were still in the box. He throws the box away. They're sitting in there in the pizzeria watching him undercover. They wait for him to throw away the pizza box. When he leaves, they get the box and they test it. So just that amount of saliva did it, Cheryl. Oh, Nancy, it takes very little with today's technology. When they swab that
Starting point is 00:16:51 pizza crust or the water bottle like we had with Boston Strangler, you're going to get a beautiful, beautiful match. And what we're seeing now, they're solving cases left and right by this very method. They wait for somebody to discard something. They run it through Ancestry.com or 24andMe, and they narrow it down to the actual perpetrator. It's a remarkable, remarkable tool that we have now. Well, I've got another question to Dr. Bethany Marshall. Boy, do I need to shrink. How do these suspects, how do they go on to live seemingly normal lives after committing such a horrible crime? Well, Reid Malloy, who's a researcher in the area of sociopathy, has a phrase called the mask of sanity. He says that these men put on what's called the mask of sanity, that they actually know that they're different from the rest of society. They know they're killers. They know that they don't have the emotions that everybody else has,
Starting point is 00:17:49 that they do not want to be in committed relationships. They're often parasitic. They live off other people. They lack empathy or remorse. They're con artists. They have a thin veneer of affability that just cracks in a split second when somebody disagrees with them. But they look and act normal. They really do. I think one of the telltale signs with these guys is that there will be a string of broken relationships with an undercurrent of violence. And I wouldn't be surprised if we learn, as this case continues, that this guy has either domestic abuse charges against him, he's been on parole, he's been committing other crimes, but this guy has not led a pure life, Nancy. And it's amazing to me that so often we see them blending in, Cheryl McCollum.
Starting point is 00:18:39 Look at BTK, a dog catcher. That should have been a tip-off right there. But a dog catcher with a wife have been a tip-off right there, but a dog catcher with a wife and a family all active in his church, seemingly blending into the community when what he really was is a cold-blooded killer, serial killer. Part of the reason they're able to get away with it, Nancy, is because of us. We don't go about our day going, man, I bet my preacher's a killer. I bet that guy at the grocery store raped and murdered somebody. Oh, I bet that guy that's working at the dentist's office raped and beat somebody to death. We don't do that. We just take people as they tell us they are, sometimes not as we see them
Starting point is 00:19:17 and know them. Think how many women have dated somebody that has abused them, and they've made an excuse for him. We do that kind of thing and we explain odd behavior and we explain violence. So a lot of the reasons they're able to get away with just masking, you know, sanity, as Dr. Marshall talked about, is because we allow them to. Well, Rob Owlinski, isn't it true that the authorities showed Pamela's family members video of the arrest and the takedown? They did, and I think it was awesome that they flew out there to do it in person. I know it's cold comfort for this family, but at least it is that much. At least she's resting in peace.
Starting point is 00:20:04 University of Hartford student, 21-year-old Jake Washer, faces two counts of attempted murder. This attack occurred inside one of the campus apartments. Snapchat videos obtained by Fox 61 show the chaotic Hollywood-like parade of ambulances and police at the Quad Apartments Sunday afternoon. We were all very, like, shocked when we found out it happened. You know, we just get alerts on our phone saying that we can't leave the school. The school was closed for the weekend. Police say they were able to get to the school's apartments Sunday afternoon.
Starting point is 00:20:26 We're all very like shocked. We found out it happened. You know, we just get alerts on our phone saying that we can't leave the school, but it was no movie. Police say washer snapped stabbing to fellow drama students spend times with
Starting point is 00:20:40 a knife as they were reenacting a scene from the 2004 sci fi thriller The Butterfly Effect. I, like, after seeing his mugshot, like, pictures of him on Insta, I've seen him around, but I didn't know him. Washer ran the campus thrust into lockdown. Did a 21-year-old drama student snap and stab two classmates during a reenactment of a scene at a Connecticut university? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Jake Washer is believed to have launched into a frenzied assault on two people,
Starting point is 00:21:18 stabbing them in the chest and the back during a rehearsal. It's like a TV or a movie program where the star is using a prop, but it turns out to be a real knife. Joining me now, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter John Limley. John, what happened? Nancy, this is a Sunday afternoon on the campus of the University of Hartford. A group of the school's drama students are working on a project for one of their classes, presumably one that's going to be presented in just the next couple of days, the coming week. Their assignment is to act out and even film a scene from this 2004 movie, The Butterfly Effect. This particular scene is a violent one, one that involves a stabbing. One of the students, Jake Washer, is playing the lead role that was played by Ashton Kutcher in the movie. As the afternoon progresses, they finally get to the point where they really want to by Jake Washer, is supposed to stab the two other students there in the room, he has in his hand a kitchen knife.
Starting point is 00:22:33 And instead of just mimicking a stabbing, he actually begins physically stabbing the other two students. And the next thing students in these student apartments know, they are absolutely swamped with medical personnel, police, and all sorts of trying to figure out what in the world has happened and to get help for these students. We are reporting on a 21-year-old Connecticut student. It is alleged she stabbed two other students during a reenactment of a scene from the supernatural thriller The Butterfly Effect. Ashley Wilcott, judge, lawyer, anchor. You can find her at ashleywilcott.com.
Starting point is 00:23:18 You know, I don't know why everybody always says, they snapped, okay? My friends at Oxygen even have a hit show, Snap. But I've got news for everybody. There is no such thing in the law as snapped. OK, my friends at Oxygen even have a hit show snap. But I've got news for everybody. There is no such thing in the law as snapped. That is not a defense. Oh, I snapped. Really? OK, that sounds like you got mad and you stabbed somebody. That's what that is. That's not snap is not a legal defense. No, it's not a legal defense. Now, insanity is. But that means insanity, as you well know, means you didn't understand that of this? I mean, to do this in front of the other students at a play rehearsal? Well, you know, he told the police when they first
Starting point is 00:24:12 caught him that he wanted to see what it would be like to stab someone. And he said he wasn't acting. And then he changed his story. and he said he was acting and his emotions got the better of him. He was into his character. I acted a little too hard, he said. I think actually that there is a psychological problem. I don't know if it rises to the level of an insanity defense, a persuasive insanity defense, but he was taken to the hospital for a psychiatric evaluation after he was caught. I mean, it seems to me that this could be something like, I mean, he has to have, of course, an intensive examination, but there are things that you, psychiatric diagnoses, where you can lose touch suddenly with reality. Well, you know, here's the thing.
Starting point is 00:25:06 Let me think this through. To Stephen Lampley, renowned detective joining us, Stephen Lampley, I mean, I'm sure they were not using an actual knife as a prop, which means to me he had to bring the knife, which means to me premeditation, which means to me follow through to the logical conclusion this was premeditated. Yeah, Nancy, that's what I think. He planned this all along, and I believe his original story, he wanted to see what it was like to stab somebody. And this
Starting point is 00:25:38 is not anything new. We look back at Edmund Kemper. He wanted to know what it was like to kill grandma. You probably remember a case back from 2009, Alyssa Bustamante. She wanted to know what it was like to kill somebody. I believe he had this planned all along. You know, I mean, help me out here, John Limley, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. You can find this and all other breaking crime and justice news at CrimeOnline.com. John, I doubt pretty seriously that in this University of Connecticut, what school was it, John? University of Hartford. Thank you. University of Hartford drama class. They had a real knife. I doubt that very seriously. I mean, was this part of the scene? I've never seen, although you say Ashton Kushner is the star. And, you know, if he's married to Millie Kunis, I'm sure he must be a great guy.
Starting point is 00:26:32 That's what I know about that. But question, is there a stabbing scene in The Butterfly Effect? There actually is. In fact, there's actually more than one if you want to get technical, but there is one in particular where two victims are actually actually i want to find out how many times you can work actually into one sentence actually but okay no offense go ahead start over sorry there are two scenes in the movie that involve actually actually uh the uh the one that is at this point, that was the assignment for the students takes place in a prison. And there are two other victims there in the prison cell with the character. And yes, ordinarily, a collapsible knife is used in theater and in movies as well that would cause no harm whatsoever
Starting point is 00:27:28 to anyone. But for some reason, Jack Washer had a physical kitchen knife in his hand. Okay, let's just follow that through. Ashley Wilcott, I mean, I hear Dr. Carol Lieberman's forensic psychiatrist saying that he had some kind of a mental defect. Well, you know what? He had to plan to bring that kitchen knife in. And if I'm correct, I'll get this from Limley, sounds to me like after he stabs the people, he takes off running. One victim, just 21 years old, got two stab wounds to the chest and four to the back. Reportedly, Washer attacks the two drama students, and then he takes off. And this is during rehearsal for a class assignment.
Starting point is 00:28:16 He reportedly leaves the scene and runs into the woods to hide. Help me out. I mean, if you don't know you've done something wrong, why are you hiding? Exactly. So, Nancy, with the insanity defense, it has to be right at the time that the act occurred. And that's how the prosecution combats insanity offenses to show what was the person doing before? Like you pointed out, he had to have a knife, didn't he? Had to get the knife somewhere. He had to plan to have the knife. And then what were they doing after? And as you pointed out in this case, he took off. And that would be my argument that yes, by taking off, he knew it was wrong. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. the area. The police say the suspect was a man who was involved in a crime story.
Starting point is 00:29:05 He's a man. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Is a commuter is not a resident washer is originally from California. He was living here on Warrington Avenue in Hartford, but after a tense two hours, police spotted him here. Near the swampy woods
Starting point is 00:29:24 on the edge of campus. He saw police and ran back into the woods. Several more officers THE SUSPECT WAS TAKEN TO THE CAMPUS AND TAKEN TO THE CAMPUS AND TAKEN TO THE CAMPUS. THE SUSPECT WAS TAKEN TO THE CAMPUS AND TAKEN TO THE CAMPUS. THE SUSPECT WAS TAKEN TO THE CAMPUS AND TAKEN TO THE CAMPUS. HE SAW POLICE AND RAN BACK INTO THE WOODS. SEVERAL MORE OFFICERS RESPONDED TO THE AREA. GAVE VERBAL COMMANDS AND THE SUSPECT CAME OUT OF THE WOODS.
Starting point is 00:29:28 ALL THIS WHILE THE BUSTLING CAMPUS HOSTED PROSPECTIVE STUDENTS TO TOUR THE CAMPUS FOR WHAT THEY CALL THEIR SPRING VISIT DAYS. REALLY UNFORTUNATE DAY FOR IT TO HAPPEN BECAUSE IT WAS AN ACCEPTED STUDENT'S DAY.
Starting point is 00:29:33 SO THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE TOURING ON CAMPUS AND EVERYTHING. AND TODAY WE ALSO LEARNED THE NAMES OF THE VICTIMS. THEY ARE BRANDON GASPERINO AND THOMAS NELSON. THE VICTIMS ARE THE FOUR
Starting point is 00:29:37 PEOPLE WHO WERE TAKEN TO THE CAMPUS. THEY ARE THE FOUR PEOPLE WHO WERE TAKEN TO THE CAMPUS. THEY ARE THE FOUR PEOPLE WHO WERE TAKEN TO THE CAMPUS. THEY ARE THE FOUR PEOPLE WHO WERE TAKEN TO THE CAMPUS.
Starting point is 00:29:41 THEY ARE THE FOUR PEOPLE WHO WERE TAKEN TO THE CAMPUS. except it's Students' Day, so there's a lot of people, you know, touring on campus and everything. And today we also learned the names of the victims. They are Brandon Gasparino and Thomas Nee. Gasparino was the one who got out of the hospital today, while Nee remains in critical condition. You were hearing our friends at WTIC. That was Matt Caron reporting on Washer running from the scene. You know, I think there may be another motive to you, Ashley Wilcott, judge, lawyer, anchor at AshleyWilcott.com. Ashley, he was in an off-campus
Starting point is 00:30:13 apartment and he was rehearsing scenes with these other two students. It was a rehearsal for a class assignment on The Butterfly Effect. That was a movie with Ashton Kutcher, and it's a supernatural thriller. That, according to John Lindley, does involve a stabbing scene. I'm curious. I'm not buying this whole motive or this whole scenario. He goes to their apartment and starts stabbing both of them. Was there some grudge or was there some other motive for the stabbing? It's hard to know, but it doesn't really make, I don't know though. I'm torn because we do have crimes where people say, I just wanted to know, just like John pointed out, what it felt like to stab someone, to kill someone, to shoot someone.
Starting point is 00:31:01 On the other hand, we're going to have to look into the relationship between him and these other two individuals. He had the lead in the play. Who knows what was going on in terms of their friendship, maybe the romantic interest. We just don't know yet, but we have to look at that. Law enforcement will look at that. The University of Hartford put in total lockdown while authorities searched through the woods for Washer. Washer, a young student himself with the world in front of him, a 21-year-old Connecticut student now accused of stabbing two others on campus during a believed reenactment of the scene from the supernatural thriller, The Butterfly Effect.
Starting point is 00:31:41 So what scene was that, John Limley? What was happening in that scene? In the scene, the main character, Ashton Kutcher, in the movie is confronted by two prisoners in a cell. And they are intimidating this new prisoner in the cell, harassing him. And all of a sudden, the camera in the movie, of course, shoots to his right hand, and you can see the tip of a knife sticking out. And without warning, the character begins stabbing the other two prisoners there in the cell. The movie is about a college student, Evan Trayborn. And he, Trayborn, is afflicted with headaches that are so horrible, so intense, he actually blacks out.
Starting point is 00:32:35 And then in this thriller, while he's unconscious from these migraines, he can travel in time to difficult moments of his own childhood. He can actually alter the past. And in one of these scenarios, he alters the past of one of his best friends named Kelly, who had been molested by her father as a child. But then when he changes the past, it drastically alters the present. Then he finds himself in a horrible nightmare of two different realities. And in one of those realities, he's actually locked away in a prison cell.
Starting point is 00:33:17 So Dr. Carol Lieberman, forensic psychiatrist, with all that in mind, I definitely need a shrink because what is this guy washer doing uh what what i character is he identifying with because he's going to end up being locked away in a prison cell for life if these accusations are true yes it's life imitating art in all different kinds of ways because not only was he is he going to end up in a prison cell or he is in a sense already in jail so um he has been art has been life has been imitating art in a lot of different ways but you know i still really do think that there is something psychiatrically wrong with him um because he was so excited to go to this school to pursue a bachelor's in fine arts. He was coming from California, the University of Cal State Fullerton. You know, this, he wrote all kinds of things on
Starting point is 00:34:11 social media about how excited he was. His, this is his dream to pursue acting. So for him to consciously decide, even if they did have some kind of grudge. I mean, yes, it could be something that overwhelmed him, but this ruined his whole, this would ruin his whole dream. And he was only at the University of Hartford since this past fall. So, you know, perhaps in a way there is something also life imitating art in that perhaps these two classmates who were playing these roles of the two prisoners, maybe they were intimidating him in real life or something it's actually uh from what i understand they were standing in their apartment on campus uh cooking in the kitchen so i'm not sure i mean dr carol lieberman no have
Starting point is 00:34:58 you ever seen a murderer that you didn't think was insane yes but i don't mean that they were intimidating him just that minute i mean if there is i don't mean that they were intimidating him just that minute. I mean, if there is, I don't know that there is a backstory that they really were intimidating him before this, but it was in a kitchen. I mean, he was in an apartment where there was a kitchen, and I thought that the knife came from the kitchen, not from that he brought it. You know, you may be right, and it was a kitchen knife with a white handle. It was, you know what, you're right, from a University of Hartford campus. My question is, when you're reenacting a scene and you're rehearsing, this was an assignment they had.
Starting point is 00:35:46 He actually said to police, I was acting too hard. Is that right, John Lampley? That's correct. He said that he just let things get out of hand. He was a little too into his character at the moment. You know, another thing, let me go to you, Stephen Lampley, a renowned detective. Dr. Carol Lieberman is talking about all of his postings on social media and no mention of him seeming abnormal, having any emotional problems, nothing. In fact, he was excited to go to University of Hartford. No indication. I mean, so many times, Stephen Lampley, you go online, you find, Kooks, I was just researching the Parkland shooter, Nicholas Cruz. You go on his social media, you see pictures of knives and guns
Starting point is 00:36:21 and comments about school shootings and death and killing. I mean, you don't see any of that on this guy's social media. and guns and comments about school shootings and death and killing. I mean, you don't see any of that on this guy's social media. Well, actually, you don't have to. Just because they don't post on social media doesn't mean that necessarily that something's going on in their brain, that there's something, process is going on. Yeah, he's a killer. That's what's going on in his brain.
Starting point is 00:36:43 Exactly. So, yeah, just because there's no posting on. Yeah, he's a killer. That's what's going on in his brain. Exactly. So, yeah, just because there's no posting on social media, you know, give or take, it may or may not mean anything. No, he was posting on social media. He was posting, and it was all normal. Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
Starting point is 00:36:57 Just because he was not posting about knives or guns or killing, that really doesn't tell us a whole lot. And now he wants a bond hearing. That's the last thing I want, Ashley Wilcott, to see this guy walking across my front yard. Right? I know you don't want him out on bond because the reality is whether he has mental health issues or not, regardless of what his defense is going to be, I don't think there's any dispute that he did it. And so until those things can be determined, it's a really scary problem amongst a general population.
Starting point is 00:37:27 Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.

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