Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Dad daughter duo in mom’s ‘suicide’ Plus: Gorgeous Alabama mom's sexy double life leads to murder?

Episode Date: January 30, 2018

A college student and her father are accused of teaming up to kill the mother and staging it to look like a suicide. Karrie Neurauter, who is studying computer engineering at the Rochester Institute of Technology, and her father, Lloyd, are charged with 2nd-degree murder for Michele Neurauter's death. Nancy Grace looks at the case with lawyer & psychologist Dr. Brian Russell, forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, and reporter Pamela Furr. video at a liquor store shows Katheen West appeared happy hours before she was found dead in front of her Alabama home. West had a online alter-ego and sold access to racy photos on the internet. RadarOnline.com Alexis Tereszcuk updates the death probe.  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. Can you imagine coming home from school as a college, and finding your mom dead? Not only dead, but by suicide. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. With me, Pamela Furr, Crime Stories investigative reporter, Joseph Scott Morgan, renowned forensics expert, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, Dr. Brian Russell, lawyer and psychologist and host of the hit series, Investigation Discovery's Fatal Vows. Straight out to Pamela Furr.

What happened? Well, on August the 28th of last year, police came to a home there in Corning, New York. At the time, they didn't release any information except for this woman. A 46-year-old woman was found hanging inside of her home. Her 14-year-old daughter was at the residence at the time. They thought it was suspicious circumstances, but that's all they knew at the time, and they started to investigate. Carrie was the older daughter. She's 20 years old. She goes to college in North Brunswick, New Jersey.

Rochester Institute of Technology, so she has everything going for her. She has her whole future ahead of her. Michelle Ryder, who was the woman who died, she was married to Lloyd, but they were divorced. And he was not anywhere close to the home, apparently, at the time when police showed up to the house. I'm just stuck on what you first said. I'm stuck on what you first said, Pamela, to Dr. Brian Russell, lawyer and psychologist, host of Discoveries Fatal Vows. Dr. Brian, I recall as a little girl, we did not know the word suicide. Now, sadly, my 10-year-olds have heard the word suicide, and I had to tell them what it was.

But I remember going to school, there was a young girl cute as a button my age, and another girl just equally cute. That was my sister's age. And I knew they didn't have a mom. I didn't know any more than that. I didn't think about it. I guess at that age, you don't think about where's Billy's mommy, you know, you don't really think about it that way because we were all on a public school bus. They didn't have the drop off and the pickup. You know, so we, we didn't ever think anything. It was only until I think I was in college before my mom told me, it just came up in conversation that their mom had committed suicide and they lived with no mom and with that they came home and found her dead and I know from having a very dear friend commit suicide that you you think wow what what could I have done to stop this?

And when you're a child, I can only imagine how this affected them to come home and find mommy had committed suicide. Yeah, and for a child, there's sort of an added element of a sense of abandonment. You know, why, no matter how bad things were for the person who apparently committed suicide, the parent, why did they, why were they willing to leave me to get away from it? And it almost creates, it almost begs the thought in the kid of, well, I must have been part of what was so intolerable about this life. That just hurts me. That hurts me so much to hear you say that. And I

know that what you're saying is correct. Brian Russell, Joseph Scott Morgan, I have seen your awesome son. And you've met the twins. I remember I had to be gone. And I've got it is coming up again. I'm going to have to be gone Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, four nights. Okay. And I lay everything out their clothes for every day, undies, socks, play clothes, school snacks, blah, blah, the works. And I call home, Joe Scott, and my daughter will say, so her dad and my mother who live with us can't hear, Mom, come home. I feel so bad. I feel awful being away.

I just can't imagine if my children came home one day and I was gone forever, and not only that, I did it myself. Kids in this position like this, I've been to many homes over the course of my career and have worked cases where people have taken their own life. And it's so difficult, even for the adult children uh because just like uh dr russell said uh everyone asks those questions and there is this this this chasm this gulf this bottomless pit of abandonment that that uh that you feel because you you they try to understand uh why is it that you left. And another thing that I see that spikes up in these cases I've worked over the years is there is a residual anger that comes about.

And it seems as – I would have people working at the medical examiner's office, I'd be there late at night. And I'd have, I remember I had one fellow that was still calling me seven years after the fact about a suicide in his family. He just couldn't wrap his mind around it. And, you know, I'd refer him to counseling and everything else because I was working other cases, but sometimes I just sit there and listen. And it's, it's a hopeless, it's a hopelessness that sets in. Well, this is what I know. This girl comes home from college and finds her mom has hung herself. And

Pamela Furr joining me, Crime Stories investigative reporter. There are two daughters in the home, right? There's the 20-year-old Carrie and then there's another sister, right? Yeah, a 14-year-old daughter who's there in the home at the time when the police came to the house. And her mom was found hanging there in the house. Oh, my stars. 14 years. Oh, my goodness.

To Joseph Scott Morgan, how do you, when there's family in the home, when the suicide occurs, what do you do with the, with the family? I mean, I know they want to get to the body, especially your mom. You want to try to save her. Well, from an investigative standpoint, let me, let me just lay it out. And it's, it's going to sound, it's going to sound really, really cold and cruel, but from an invest, cause you only get one shot at working a death scene. And our working assumption, Nancy, is that every, and I don't mean some, I don't mean an arbitrary few, I mean all, all deaths are considered a homicide until proven otherwise, because you cannot go back and rework the case. Oh, man, that is so true i was just with dr oz this past week talking about how the case was botched at the get-go on john bonnet ramsey

now i'm not going to go down that rabbit hole but you're so right but in this case it was so obviously uh hanging death by suicide so what how you process, how do you handle a scene like that? I mean, how do you process the body? What do you do to, you know, ensure it was a suicide? The first thing you have to do, and apparently they did this, Nancy, they took care at the scene because there are certain things that we'd look for. So we're going to take a look at the injury around the neck. In this particular case, they're talking about hanging, Nancy. So we're going to take a look at the injury around the neck. In this particular case, they're talking about hanging, Nancy. So that would be what's referred to as a ligature mark, and that's a deep furrow. And the position of that mark on the neck is going to be the telling sign

as to whether or not this is homicide or suicide or something else. Well well this is what we also know pamela for investigative reporter joining us is that there have been several calls to police to come to the home for domestic problems but the father wasn't living there so it wasn't him right wasn't him. Right. Wasn't living there. It wasn't him that we know of. Police aren't releasing much information. We don't know if whether or not he had a history of any kind of violence with Michelle, the mother, the one who died. We don't know if maybe he was still trying to come after her. I mean, at some point, obviously, they were married at some point. So we're not sure where those domestic abuse calls came from. Police aren't releasing that information. But we do know there was a history, not of one call, of several calls to that home.

Well, I'll tell you what, Dr. Brian Russell, lawyer and psychologist and host of Investigation Discovery's Fatal Vow series, It's what it sounds like to me. You know, when you have a domestic report, and I've seen so many that escalated into felony, when you have them, the alleged perpetrator is right on the police report. It says husband allegedly beat wife. We observe wife with bruises and crying and bleeding, and we made the man leave, blah, blah. You see it in the police report. But here, we don't know who was the perpetrator of alleged domestic violence,

but hold everybody's horses because the girls were juveniles. Two girls, one mom in the home. Who is beating who? who is threatening who because the police reports apparently don't reveal it they don't reveal it we can't decipher that we have not been able to learn that is it because one of the juveniles was the perpetrator and therefore it's not on the police report, Dr. Russell? That's possible. I think one thing for sure is that those kids or perpetrate abuse in the presence of kids, because it puts them not only in physical and emotional danger, but it puts them in the horrible position if there does come the need for them to explain what happened in the house. It's traumatic

to have to do that. Then everything takes an unusual twist. Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert. We know that there were deep furrows on the mom's neck from her apparent hanging, her suicide. Then what happened, Joe Scott? Apparently, the police did not, the investigators did not agree with what they're in. This is the problem, Nancy. On many of these cases, you will have family members that will say to you, when you walk onto a scene, they will say, this is a suicide. Or they'll say, my family member committed suicide. And apparently in this particular case, when they began to examine this woman's body, both at the scene and back at the medical examiner's office, the two things did not compute. old up on the top of a roof of a parking garage threatening to jump trying to escape off the top of a parking garage to Pamela Furr investigative reporter why is Lloyd Nyrider on top of a parking

garage a multi-level parking garage I mean he's the only parent these two girls have left what's he doing up there trying to jump to get away from police that's a very good. I mean, he's the only parent these two girls have left. What's he doing up there trying to jump to get away from police? That's a very good question. I mean, last week, search warrants were issued not only for the home where Michelle's body was found, but Lloyd's home as well and a daughter's home. Lloyd's home was being investigated in New Jersey. That's where he lived in North Brunswick. They didn't find him in his house, but because people were looking for him, the Princeton Police Department in New Jersey found him parked in a garage. He was in his car, and as police approached him, he got out of that

car, and he ran to the ledge on top of the parking garage, stood there and threatened to jump. And they tried to talk him down. They couldn't talk him down. So the police went ahead and got him, grabbed him, detained him. They tackled him. They tackled him. And it's all on tape. They tackled him. Well, you know, there he was, Judge Scott Morgan, holding himself hostage. And I always think of O.J. Simpson, you know, riding along in his white Bronco with allegedly, we only have A.C. Cowling's word for it, holding a gun to his own head, threatening that if police didn't quit following him, he would kill himself. He was holding himself hostage. So here we have it again.

Leave me alone or i'll jump you know he's basically holding himself hostage on top of a a parking deck it never works when you hold yourself hostage joe scott no no it doesn't uh and it seems like in all of these cases and i don't know for anybody else in the audience but I've actually been trapped in traffic uh because people are threatening to jump off of a viaduct over over interstate highway for hours and hours and hours and it seems inevitably that they always get the person are you actually complaining that a person about to kill themselves slowed down your commute am i hearing that yeah i sure am and definitively uh particularly when i i know in in one particular case where i was sitting there there was a guy that was scheduled to do he was a neurosurgeon he was trying to get to the hospital to do brain surgery

and was trapped in the same traffic jam and person died so it's a just a markedly selfish event to engage in well here you go here's the bombshell two suspects make this woman's death look like a suicide two suspects and it doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure out that the father, Lloyd Nyrider, is one of those suspects. The other, her daughter. Pamela Furr, please tell me I'm wrong. Unfortunately, you're not wrong. But let's be clear, it's the 20-year-old daughter, not the younger 14-year-old at this point. It's the 20-year- old who's attending college at Rochester Institute

of Technology. She was arrested for murder by the Corning police along with the father. She was taken into custody. She didn't have any issues like her father did. She was arraigned. She's in jail without bond right now, but she's pleading not guilty at this point. She's not really talking to anybody. So we don't know what kind of motive there would have been. We also don't know what they found when they issued those search warrants that led them to arrest Carrie. But that's the bombshell. The 20-year-old daughter may have tried to fake this suicide, and instead it's a homicide. Dr. Brian Russell, host of Fatal Vows,

you know, I remember as a little girl waking up first thing in the morning to get ready for school, getting up at a quarter of seven, and when I would go into the kitchen, there would be three plates of grits and hot coffee, half coffee, half milk for us to drink. Everything laid out and my mother would be long gone to work. She would get home in the evening. I can remember like it was right now, blowing the horn, coming up the driveway to come in and make dinner. And we would all be together as a family. And now I think back on what the toll that took on her. And it was her and my dad, but mostly my mom at night when I'd be sick, feeding me ice chips to get my fever down.

It would be her helping me rehearse my 4-H presentations. You know, both of them with me, helping me through, even up until when I was a prosecutor, driving to Atlanta when I would be out at 4 and 5 in the morning trying to roust witnesses out of their crack houses to come to court. They would be there. They would come to court and Watch me try that case. All, and when my children were born and the three of us nearly died, they were there. I mean,

how could you turn on your own mother, Brian? One of the things that talking about these cases does for people like you and me, I think, is it really reminds us of what wonderful gifts we got from parents who were there for us. Both of them were sane and committed to each other and to us. But in answer to your question, Fatal Vows has been on the air now for five seasons. We've made dozens and dozens of episodes, but not hundreds and hundreds of episodes. And I've seen this more than once. I've seen this in more than one of our episodes where a parent actually enlists one of their

children to kill that child's other parent. And you just think, my God, you think it's the height of depravity when you see just the murder. And then you realize that not only was this person so sociopathic, so narcissistic as to commit murder for whatever selfish reasons they had, but also to ruin their child's character, ruin their child's life. And it might even be worse in this case because the 14-year-old daughter apparently at least was in the house. It's tough to imagine this all happening without the 14-year-old having some idea that something very profoundly horrible was occurring in the house.

She may end up having to be a witness now, at the very least, to this. You know, right now I'm bringing it back home, Joe Scott, to those two little girls. I remember them right now. They were so cute. And I remember when my mom finally told me that their mom had committed suicide. I said, why? And she said, I don't know. Uh, because there was a really popular radio show and, uh, on WMAZ as I recall, I can't remember anymore. And the slogan was keep on keeping on. And this mom would call in to the radio show all the time and talk. And she was funny and witty and smart.

You know, Dr. Russell, when we say why, you don't know. But there doesn't have to be a why for suicide. But for this 14-year-old girl to go through thinking her mom had left her on purpose and committed suicide, to now learn her father and sister are charged in mom's murder, what could possibly be the motive? You know, it's bad enough. In all of the fatal vows cases involving children, I always talk about how, you know, the children are essentially orphaned because one parent's dead and the other one usually is in prison for life or decades at least. But in this case, we're talking about this girl's entire family. So here's this dad who, if he's guilty, allegedly was willing for whatever selfish reasons of his own. He's mad at his ex-wife for whatever myriad of reasons people have to be mad at their exes.

He's willing to destroy his daughter's life who participated, who, if she's guilty, will be essentially having her life over. And then also the 14-year-old to not only orphan her, but basically take away her entire family. Just the profoundness of the narcissism of that. And then the big act, the big swan song of threatening to do a swan dive off the parking garage. I'm with Joe Scott on that. I'm not 100% sure I would have worked real hard to talk him down. I'm telling you just the way this whole thing has played out. I don't know if we know this yet, Pamela Furr,

investigative reporter, but who has the 14-year-old? What's going to happen to her now that the dead Lloyd Nyrider and the 20-year-old daughter, Carrie Nyrider, have both been arrested? Where's the 14-year-old? Who's taking care of her? It's my understanding that she's with other family members, but I don't have the details on which family member, if it's a brother or grandparents of Michelle, but it's my understanding she is with family members. But I would like to point out something else. You brought it up earlier, Nancy, about the domestic abuse calls at Michelle's home. My question, as you pointed out now, it may not have been Lloyd, the father, but Carrie, the 20-year-old. Could there have been domestic violence with one of the daughters that they saw for several years,

and it came to a head with something like this, and that the 14-year-old was exposed to that as she was growing up. So she is, this 14-year-old is going to have a lot of damage. You know what, Pamela? You are so right. And right now, I am just saying a prayer for that 14-year-old little Nye Ryder girl who's going to live the rest of her life without her mother. And very likely, if police are to be believed, without her father and sister. God be with that child.

And we are watching as justice unfolds. Switching gears, you know, I got up at 5 o'clock this morning, Joe Scott. You know the twins because they had a big project due today. Joe Scott, why can't they just read a book and write a book report? Why is that? I have no idea. It takes three people from MIT to try to work out some kind of project that they have. You never find out about it until the night before.

Well, I'm supposed to be going online, reading the website. But I mean, if I work on one more diorama or shoebox story or this time it was comic strips. No offense. I know the teachers are trying to make them bring in their creativity. But one, who will not be identified, just does it no problem. The other, we have to bargain and beg and hide the iPad and blah, blah, blah. Anyway, my point is, I was up at 5 o'clock making sure everything was packed and ready to go. I need energy. Enter Super Beats. I guess you don't think a whole lot

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A neighbor finds her and the condition of her body. She's wearing nothing but a sports bra. And the scene looks so staged beside her is a liquor bottle with this is first thing in the morning with a cell phone lying neatly arranged directly on top of the liquor bottle as if please see me joining me from RadarOnline.com investigative investigative reporter Alexis Tereszczuk, Dr. Brian Russell from Discoveries Fatal Vows, Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert. To you, Alexis Tereszczuk, there's been a break in the case,

but let's take it from the beginning. Tell me how Kathleen West, who's just absolutely gorgeous, how this mom, this suburban soccer mom, is found dead outside her home in the street, half naked, with a cell phone and a liquor bottle. So a neighbor is out in their neighborhood about 6 o'clock in the morning, and they spot this horrifying scene. This is their neighbor, this woman kathleen and she is based on she is only as you said she's only wearing a sports bra which means she is naked everywhere else and passed out on the street with blood everywhere huge gash on her head and that so

she was discovered by a neighbor she's she's not far from her house at all now it's a very small town of solera and she was the prettiest and the most youthful looking mom in the neighborhood and at the school on Facebook she describes herself as a full-time wife and mommy a neighbor's daughter as Alexis is telling us was up on her way to work and finds a dead body. To Dr. Brian Russell, Investigation Discovery's Fatal Vow star. Brian, you're the psychologist. That's certainly something you never forget. I mean, I haven't forgotten a single one of the dead bodies that I, you know, represented the victims in and felonies. I remember every single one of them, you know, for many

different reasons, often odd reasons. Like I recall, this is funny, odd. Dr. Bryan, I remember them for odd reasons. Like I remember one young teen boy, he was killed from a carjacking. But what I remember about him is that when a neighbor heard the shooting, they ran out with a pillow and put it under the boy's head as he died. I remember a woman whose husband hit her in the head and burned the house down. And when police drove up, he was lounging Romanesque in the yard across the street. And they talked to him five minutes before he said, oh, yeah, my wife's in there. I mean, they just odd things. I remember about all those murder trials. But in this particular case,

what about the neighbor's daughter? Who's the one that finds the body, Dr. Bryan? Yeah. You know, for, for you as a prosecutor and for people like my brother who are firefighters, EMTs, people like my dad who are cops, you know, they, unfortunately, as part of their career, they're going to come across a number of deceased people. For most individuals, fortunately, that is not a routine part of their jobs or their lives. And so it's shocking enough just to come across a deceased individual. And then you overlay on top of that the additional shock of realizing this isn't just a deceased human being. That's shocking enough. This is somebody I know. This is somebody from my neighborhood. This is somebody I used to pass and say hi to on the street, maybe as recently as yesterday.

We also are learning to Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert professor at Jacksonville State University. Joseph Scott, she, we now know, was bleeding from her head. So this is the manner of death, bleeding from the head, on the street, half naked, seen staged, early morning hours. Speak to those circumstances. For one thing, we can pretty much rule out a suicide because, I mean, if you study it, the method and assessment of homicide and suicide, it's a cold day in H-E-L-L that a female kills herself, and this is across all races and ages and socioeconomic status, without her clothes on.

It may be innate. It may be ingrained. But that says to me right there, she did not kill herself by shooting herself out in the neighborhood half dressed. Women typically don't even do that in the privacy of their home, much less they don't shoot themselves in the head or the face area. It's just, that's a statistical truth. So what does this say? What we're learning about the crime scene say to you before I give you the bombshell. Just the fact that you've come across a woman that is, you know, wearing only a sports bra and nothing else that in and of itself, out in an open, exposed area,

it's going to give me pause to think that, first off, when I look at this, that it could be, first off, something sexual in nature that's going on because of the condition, the status of the body's clothing or absence thereof. And also, what's the significance of her body being in front of her home? I think that that's very important here, as opposed to, we don't just have a deceased, attractive woman here in less than normal dress. We've got a woman that's dead in front of her home. If this was something else, why wasn't her body removed? Why wasn't out of sight? No one has taken the opportunity to hide the body, you know, seclude the body in some way. So it raises a myriad of questions, Nancy.

Well, typically when it is someone that you know, they hide the body. mean you don't sneak to kill somebody and then leave the body in plain view if it's a carjack or an armed robbery that turns out to be a murder typically the body will be laying right there because the person takes off but you know gets out of the scene as fast as they can. So here we have the dichotomy of the woman being close to home, which would make you look at the husband, who is not a suspect, by the way, or a person of interest. But if it were the husband, why would he leave the body out in plain view? That's more indicative of a random killing, not the husband. So it leans toward it not being husband.

Hold on. Alexis Tereschuk, investigative reporter, RadarOnline.com. What's the Cougar Club and how does that fit into this scenario? So Kathleen West, as you said, wholesome mom, prettiest mommy in the school beautiful beautiful 35 year old woman was a member of the cougar club and this is an online subscription only for adults only club where women who are over the age of 35 post sexy pictures of themselves they don't sexy selfies you know showing them in bikinis and now wait a minute alexis if i like if i look like this woman i might post too let me just tell you.

It was a couple of years ago. Well, it was 10 years ago. And I was pregnant. But I had not revealed that yet. I was about three months pregnant. And I was on a show. I think I told you the story, Alexis, when you were pregnant. I was on, I can't even remember what show I was on, but anyway, it was in a commercial break and I had on a blazer and a blouse and jeans and my boots

that I'm wearing right now. And I leaned over to get a tissue that was sitting on the table in front of me on the set. Somebody took a picture of me leaning over and of course my tummy came over my jeans. And the Globe posted it, which is their right under the First Amendment, beside Jack Nicholson, who was very obese, okay, at

that time, and put anchors away. A-W-E-I-G-H. Yeah. I, of course, But anchors away. A-W-E-I-G-H. I, of course, was mortified. Because, you know, there's that old adage, there's no such thing as bad press. Well, I can tell you right now, that is not true. Since that time, Dr. Brian Russell, maybe I need a private session with you.

I take the twins to the swimming pool. I just jump into my clothes. And, you know, with a mask over my face, swimming. You know, other moms have on cute outfits and swimsuits. I just walk up and just jump in. I spend the rest of the afternoon in the pool in my fully clothed. Because it's, you know, over my dead body is another shot, a photo going to come out of me like that. So maybe if I look like this lady, Dr. Brian Russell, I might post shots of myself too. Well, here's what I think about that. I think that when you are a single individual, you're a single woman and you want to, you know, show yourself off and all that, date younger guys.

Why do you have to be single to show off your cuteness? Well, here's what I think. I sense a double standard. No, no. Yes, yes. No, it's not. It's not going to be a double standard. I think when you are a married person, man or woman, the only sexual needs, desires, fantasies that you ought to be

catering to, and the only person that is supposed to be catering to yours is your spouse. And any time you get yourself involved in any kind of illicit sexual activities, whether it's pornography or putting pictures of yourself up for other people to get off on, whatever it is, going to see prostitutes while you're traveling for work. Whoa, whoa, wait a minute. This is getting a little far afield

from a mom posting shots of herself. She looks like Marilyn Monroe and showing her cleavage and wearing a little kitty cat headband. That's a far cry from hooking up with prostitutes when you're traveling. Whoa, me, you think thou doth protest too much to borrow a phrase from a Shakespeare. Here's the point. When you do stuff like that, you are inviting into your life a group of people that are going to include some very seedy characters

that you don't want to invite in. And you're also getting involved in something that for many people becomes an escalating pattern of behavior where it starts out small. So now it's her fault for posing online. Dr. Brian, I mean, I don't think, I don't, I don't agree with you. Just because I don't have the figure to post myself online like, like she did. That does not mean that she somehow is responsible for her own murder. I disagree with that. Although I do see when you post yourself out there, people find out about you and try to track you down. Okay. With that part, I agree. Yes. Take a listen to what we learned about the Cougar Club. I wish for everyone to stop trying to connect online photos to her passing. It's not like that, okay?

It doesn't necessarily mean indiscretions. It doesn't. They're just pictures. That is her friend from the Cougar Club, Sandy Kay, speaking to our friends at Inside Edition. Back to Alexis Tereszczuk, RadarOnline.com. So she's a member of the Cougar Club. What exactly do they do they post pictures of themselves and in any sort of provocative way that you want whether it's a broad she really

liked Marilyn Monroe so she sort of tried to emulate a lot of her poses and she really looked like her but she was one of the women that was considered almost like a mom within this group because she was very supportive of all the other women and really cheering them on saying like you know you have a great body you look wonderful okay tell me something alexis just how serious was the online i mean the shots i see of her she's you know she's dressed provocatively but she's dressed she's got on a naked. No. No. When you go on to her, the website, though, with a subscription fee, does she, is she naked? Is she? No.

Okay. All right. So to me, that's a big difference. And we know that in the past months, there has been a spate of deaths amongst, let me just say adult entertainers, August Ames, Olivia Lua, Olivia Nova, who died from unknown causes. And now what's her name online? Kitty Cat West. Kitty Cat West. Oh, wait a minute.

Hold on, Alexis. Hold on. I hate to tell you this, but someone wants to correct you. Someone who's obviously subscribed to Kitty Cat West's website. Okay, Alan Duke. Twitter. Sorry, Alexis, you just didn't dig deep enough, okay? You haven't spent hours in front of your screen watching Kitty Cat West.

Okay, Alan Duke you cough it up if you go to her twitter account you will see some some nude photos from the back side if you will there's that shot from the refrigerator that i think we actually have crime online.com has it oh i'm pixelated in proper places right now okay it's on twitter it's on and there's there are a couple of others it's it's i guess you could say tastefully done. I don't know, but they are nudes and they are on Twitter. She only had 346 Twitter followers. If I'd known about those pictures, she'd have 347. Really nice shots. Okay. I'm going to try to move forward, even with Alan Duke dragging him along through the path of decency. Okay. Yes, Dr. Brian Russell,

pull me out of the gutter here. Well, I just want to say that this is an illustration of the other thing that I was talking about, that not only do you invite a group of people into your life when you put yourself out there... You mean like Alan Duke? Well, you also, for many people, you get yourself involved in something that it's a little bit like a drug where a little bit doesn't go as long of a way as it once did. And so you start out doing some racy photos, but clothed. And then that doesn't quite give you the thrill or that doesn't quite get the response that it once did. And so now you're escalating it. Now you've got some nude photos. And, and, and I'm not saying that that

this happened in this case, but I wouldn't be surprised if at some point, especially when you're asking people to pay money to see this stuff, it doesn't escalate to, well, maybe it wouldn't hurt to let one of these people actually meet me, especially if they're going to pay money. You know what? And it could hurt a lot. Dr. Bryan, I just want to run something by you. When I was in school to be a Shakespearean literature professor and my fiancé was murdered shortly before our wedding,

as you probably know, I think I've told you, I dropped out of school. I was aimless. I wouldn't of school. I was aimless. I wouldn't go back. I was overcome with grief, lost down to about 86 pounds. And I decided to go back with the aim of going to law school to become a felony prosecutor to try and save other victims the pain that I went through. My parents did not want me to become a felony prosecutor.

They did not want me around felony level crime. They did not want me driving around with convicted rapists in my car trying to find a killer, which that's just one scenario and it dawned on me dr russell that the people i consorted with some people would refer to it as going to hell to get witnesses to put the devil in jail but some of them no matter what side of town they came from no matter what their history was whether they had dealt drugs or been convicted on all sorts of crimes, some of them ended up being more decent people than the rich, educated people I came in contact with. I remember one really, really wealthy guy with all sorts of degrees killed his wife, actually put a hank on me at the end of the trial. Something about the blood of your ancestors, blah, blah, blah, will follow you forever.

As they hauled him off to jail, I still remember it. I mean, you know, the way some people behave. My point is, when you get in a certain milieu, then you have to take into account the risk of that, Dr. Brian Russell. And, oh, Alan Duke, let me defend you. I'm sure you subscribed for purely journalistic reasons. Exactly. Exactly. To further the story. So, Dr. Russell, I don't know if this mom, now known as Kitty Cat West, had any idea who she was dealing with by posting racy pictures online yeah she may not have you know you uh you mentioned the fact that that your parents were concerned that by doing the work that you did that you were perhaps uh you know it's at times uh and i'm sure

you were at times putting yourself in uh in places and around people that could have been dangerous. And the reason that in your case that was noble is because of the important, you know, positive impact on society of the work that you were doing. I don't think that, especially somebody who's got children for whom they're responsible can make that argument even if they say well I was making money and that was helping the family a lot better ways to make money as a mom and contribute to the household finances than this and now a break in the story in the last hours new images of the so-called double-life dead mom, Kitty Kat West, revealed her buying whiskey and absinthe on her last night alive.

To Alexis Tereschuk, investigative reporter with RadarOnline.com, what? She was spotted in a liquor store the night before her body was found the surveillance video shows her fully dressed she was with a guy she bought a bottle of whiskey in a bottle of absinthe which is a super super strong liquor like nobody should ever drink it and she the guy is with her he's seen actually patting her on the butt in the video she looks as happy as can be and this is just hours before her body is found according to stacy oglesby a clerk according to stacy oglesby a clerk in the store quote they came in it looked like they were on a date night they bought a bottle of jameson and a bottle of lucid absent and made their purchase and went on their way everything was normal as a bottle of Lucid Absinthe and made their purchase and went on their way.

Everything was normal. As a matter of fact, listen to the clerk, Stacey Oglesby. They came in. It looked like they were on a date night. They bought a bottle of Jameson and a bottle of Lucid Absinthe and made their purchase and went on their way. And everything seemed normal. Everything was normal. That is Stacey Oglesby speaking to our friends at Inside Edition.

Footage obtained shows West, the mother of a 12-year-old little girl, laughing and smiling, going through the wine and liquor aisles. There is a man, as Alexis has pointed out, walking alongside her. I don't know if he has been identified yet. But the husband, Jeff, who we believe to be a campus police officer at Birmingham Southern College, his family wants to mourn privately. Okay, do you blame him? They've got a 12-year-old daughter. What is the point? I mean, let me rephrase.

What do we learn from this video? One thing I'd like to thank Joe Scott Morgan, forensics expert, is that I could tell something about was she wearing the same clothes? Could she have been killed that night instead of in the morning? What happened to her clothes? Are the clothes she's wearing at, I think it was R&R Wine or something like that, are those clothes gone? Have they been burned? Are they in a nearby trash dump?

That's very critical because that would tell me she was killed the night before. What can you tell from the body as to the time of death? She may never have made it home the night before. Yeah, yeah, you're right, Nancy. And not just the time of death, but also the position of the body. Was she killed somewhere else where, say, for instance, things like blood settling or postmortem lividity has set in another region, and then she's placed in an alternative position at the scene, and it makes it look inconsistent. Another thing is that in this footage, we see her dressed as she's dressed, but all we know, the only piece of clothing she had was this sports bra. Here's another really key part here, Nancy. Do you remember what they said?

The cell phone was found at the scene either adjacent to or with a bottle sitting on top of it. And they referred to a liquor bottle. This liquor bottle, if I remember correctly, was green in color. The store clerk said that she and this other person had purchased Lucid is the name, the name brand, Lucid Absinthe there at the bar, along with Jameson, which is an Irish whiskey. But Lucid uh, absent, this is the only type of absent that is made in the traditional way. And, uh, it's, it's quite, it's quite the drink, uh, very powerful, um, causes some people to hallucinate this sort of thing. Um, and if that's

at the scene and it's empty, I'd really like to know from the autopsy, not just where this blood was coming from her head, but also what her level of toxicity was, what level of alcohol was in her system. That's quite a bit of alcohol to have consumed, particularly when it comes to absinthe. You know, her mother, Nancy Martin, is posting that the family is asking for prayers. And this is not a time to judge this young mom. This is a time, I agree with her mother, to pray for the little girl, the 12-year-old girl, who will never have her mom for the rest of her life. Yeah, some people may morally, I guess morally, disagree with her posting shots of herself naked or in racy clothing. But unless one of us has never committed a sin, I don't believe we have a leg to stand on. I'll let you guys throw the first stone because it is not going to be me. This is about a murder.

That is what this is about. Take a listen to what this beautiful young mom's neighbor has to say. It's got everybody a little bit on the edge and a little uneasy right now. We just want answers. You know, Joseph Scott Morgan, when you go into warp speed on describing how you process a body, you lose a lot of people, including me sometimes. When you say lividity, what that means is, in my layperson understanding, I'm just a JD, and you and Brian Russell can lord it over me that he's a lawyer and a psychologist

and you're a forensics expert. Go ahead. I don't mind. Levitity, to my understanding, is when a body, a dead body, is prone or in any position, sitting at the wheel of a car, in somebody's car trunk, their blood is no longer pumping through their body. And therefore, the blood goes down to the lowest point of the body, i.e., if you're in the car trunk, lying on your back, all your blood goes down to your rear end, the back of your legs, the back of your body. Because the heart's not pumping it through the body anymore.

It all sinks to the lowest level. The police or the medical examiner will determine not only the point of lividity. She's only been dead 15 minutes, there's not time for the blood to sink to the lowest level. You can also tell the time of death by rigor, the degree of rigor mortis, the stiffening of the limbs, and the temperature of the body. What about that, Joseph Scott Morgan? Will that help us?

And if blood was still freely flowing from the wound, that would suggest a more recent wound. If it had been hours before, the blow would have coagulated. Help me out, Joe Scott. Yes or no? Yes. My stars. That's the first time in history you answered in one word i i i'm stunned okay so what would you expect with this chilly morning temperature joseph scott morgan how will that help me determine time of death because that's very important working with what's called the environmental temperature ambient environmental temperature That's the outdoor in temperature, Nancy. The key here is how is that going to affect the deceased? Remember, our normal body

temperature is 98.6, okay? That body temperature that we retain after death is dependent upon how cold or warm the environment is that you're in. That's one piece to it. So if she's in a protected area when she dies, let's say a climate controlled area, rigor mortis, rigor mortis, for instance, in the body temperature is going to move quicker. All right. Heat speeds things up. We all know this in science experiments. If she is in a position going to what you were talking about, gravity, the settling of blood, this is going to be key. The blood, which is liquid, even though it's not pumping through our body more, still liquid, is going to seek the lowest point of gravity. The lowest point of gravity will be pulled to that position. So let's say if she was laying on her

back for an extended period of time, maybe 30, 40 minutes, blood will have begun to seek that area. But if she has shifted, you might have multiple places where blood has settled. So this can be rather confusing. And it's going to be key to figure out the timeline. This all goes back to timeline, where she was at any particular time. That's why the CCTV footage is very key when it's coupled with the actual time when she was found dead. Alexis Tereschuk, investigative reporter, RadarOnline.com. I'm not going to know anything until we get a COD cause of death. For all I know, she was out and got hit by a car. She could have fallen and hit her head on the curb and was bleeding.

It sounds like a gunshot wound to the head to me because her state of undress suggests she would not have been out for any other purpose. And we've got to get an ID on who was with her at that liquor store. But depending on the time and the cause of death, she could have come back with the liquor, come home or not, and then been murdered. For all I know, she was out jogging that morning. I don't know until I get a cause of death and a time of death, Alexis. Any word on that? The coroner has not said anything and neither have the police, but you were talking about the video. It seems to be what people are understanding from

the video, and this has not been confirmed by the police yet, but I think it's her husband in the video with her. So it seems like it's close to the house and they're saying that he just wants to grieve privately. There hasn't been the outpouring. You know, he hasn't had a press conference saying, I need somebody to find the person that did this to my wife. Well, I know that throws suspicion on the husband. He is not a person of interest or a suspect. But the reality is Dr. Brian Russell, lawyer and psychologist, host of Investigation Discovery's hit series, Fatal Vows.

I mean, the reality is whether he's a suspect or a person of interest or not, that's where every investigation starts. And when you get married or you're in a relationship, that's just part of it. If something goes wrong, you're the first suspect statistically, for statistical reasons. Whether you're guilty or innocent, cops are going to look at you first. Why? Well, because statistically, it's like a target, you know, close to the bullseye there. The people who are in the sphere that is closest around the person who's deceased are the ones that

have the most access, the most ax to grind. Usually there are all kinds of reasons why you tend to look at the significant other and the immediate, the people in the immediate sphere around the person first, and then you fan out to progressively, you know, more distant rings of association with the person going all the way out to, you know, ultimately the public that had no prior contact with the person. But that's less likely. Usually, more often than not, it's somebody that knew the person. And I think a lot of people, especially maybe even some Fatal Vows fans, look at this and go, oh, I bet I know what happened. I bet the husband found out that she had this double life and he got upset and he did this.

Well, OK, yeah, that's a hypothesis. It's good to have that as one hypothesis. But we've seen cases on Fatal Vows where people were involved in illicit sexual stuff and the spouse knew and was on board with it. So we really can't be sure a secret. But my question is, what is this daughter going through? Because she may not know about her mom's double life, but you know some horrible little child at school will and will say something to her. I mean, to add insult to injury, you lose your mom. She's most likely murdered in a very degrading way. And then it's going to be thrown in your face that she posed online. I mean, Dr. Russell, that's a lot for a child to take in.

Yeah, absolutely. And, and, and, you know, I, I, without, without being judgmental, I would, I would just have to say for everybody else who's trying to take lessons away from, part of the reason they listen is because they're trying to take lessons away from these horrible cases, which is really the only good a lot of times that can come out of them is it's another reason not to get involved in this stuff because it does come back on your kids. Even if you don't get murdered, you know, if your parents just get divorced, these things come out. Kids, like like you said kids at school find out other other kids parents find out and they don't want their kids associating with you

because they hear stuff that your parents are involved in it's just once you become a parent your whole your whole decision making process has to change to where everything you do has to be about how is this good for my kids we also know keep in mind all of you super sleuths out there that the liquor store footage was just eight hours before this soccer mom is found dead alan duke the tip line if anyone has information on the death of this beautiful young mom, Kathleen Dawn West. Please call. Alan? Nancy, the Calera, Alabama Police Department is leading the investigation and their tip line is area code 205-668-3505. 205-668-3505. If you want more information, go to CrimeOnline.com for our full feature story. Nancy Grace, signing off.

Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.