Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Dad kills naked, masked intruder in young daughter's bedroom

Episode Date: June 2, 2020

Dr. Aaron LaTowsky confronts a naked, masked man in his daughter's bedroom. The man lunged at the homeowner with a piece of wood raised above his head. LaTowsky shoots and kills the burglar, but he's not the only dad fighting to take care of his family.Joining Nancy Grace today to talk about vigilante dads: Kirk Nurmi - Jodi Arias former Attorney, Author of "Trapped with Ms. Arias Parts 2 and 3 My Final Words" Caryn Stark - NYC Psychologist Sheryl McCollum - Forensics Expert & Founder of Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Dr. Kendall Crowns - Deputy Medical Examiner Travis County, Texas (Austin) Levi Page - Investigative Reporter, CrimeOnline  Marc Klaas - Founder, Klaas Kids foundation Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. A father in the middle of the night hears a noise. Then he hears the dog barking her head off. He goes into his little girl's room and there he spots a man wearing a mask, and that's all. Just a mask. Standing in his daughter's room in the middle of the night. What would you do? Well, this guy shot him dead. Is he now looking at a grand jury indictment? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Let's

kick it off with Fox 10 News reporter Justin Lum. For Aaron Lutowski, his sole responsibility is protecting his wife, three kids, and their nanny. Don't forget the family dog, Sadie, who Lutowski says alerted him late last night to a break-in. And so I came inside and I saw that one of our side doors was open and she was barking down the hall towards my kids' bedrooms. Right away, Lutowski says he grabbed his shotgun. Meanwhile, the rest of the family was asleep. We never would have known we would have continued to sleep and sleep through it. So I'm just so thankful. Lutowski went into his daughter's room where he says the suspect came out with a large piece of wood, his face masked and his body naked. Joining me, an all-star panel to break it down and put it

back together again. First of all, Kirk Nermy. I know you know that name. He represented Jody Arias at trial and is the author of a book, Trapped with Miss Arias, Parts 2 and 3, My Final Words on Amazon. Awesome work, Nermy. Karen Stark, renowned New York psychologist, joining us. stark.com the director and founder of the cold case research institute cheryl mccallum dr kendall crowns the deputy medical deputy medical examiner for travis county texas that's austin crime online dot com investigative reporter levi page and special guest joining me the founder of Class Kids Foundation, Mark Klass. Mark Klass has spent his life trying to right wrongs, find missing children specifically. This is after the kidnap and death of his little girl, Polly. And I remember, Mark Glass, when you jumped up out of your seat in the courtroom and made a lunge to get your hands around the neck

of the guy that took Polly. I remember that, Mark Glass. Well, Nancy, you know, I was in a situation similar to Dr. Lutowski. A predator broke into the house and attempted something with my young child and I always regretted the fact that I was unable to do to that individual what Dr. Lutowski ultimately did to the guy that broke into his little girl's room. And that's exact revenge. And I'll tell you why. The reason why is because we tell our children from the time they can understand us, from the time we first see them, that we'll do anything that we can to protect them, that they're safe as long as

they're under our watch. Now, those are easy words to say, but in practice, it's almost, it is virtually impossible to play out because you just can't hover like a helicopter over your children all the time. And on the rare occasion, as in Dr. Lukowski's situation and as in Paui's situation, the bad guy gets the upper hand and is able to do whatever in the world is in their twisted mind. The only difference between Dr. Lukowski and I is that he was able to intervene and save his child from whatever this character had in mind and protect her in a way that this guy would never get his hands on her again. And that's why putting

a shotgun up and pulling the trigger twice and being done with it, saving society, the pain of having to go through any of the BS involved in explaining and justifying what this character had done to his child. You know, when I think back about the day that you almost got your hands around the neck of Polly's killer, I only regret one thing, that you didn't make it. Just, you know, a few more feet. You were so close. When I'm looking at this guy, Dr. Aaron Letowski, catches a naked, mask-wearing burglar standing over his daughter in the middle of the night.

The only way he found out is when Dog Sadie started barking her head off. And now there's a move afoot to have him prosecuted? Uh-uh, no. Not on my watch is he going to be prosecuted. And he's not the first dad to do the same thing. Take a listen to ABC 15 News in Scottsdale. Tonight, family police piecing together a deadly shooting in Scottsdale. Investigators say a homeowner shot and killed a possible burglary suspect inside his home. It happened last night near Pima and Happy Valley Roads. Detectives say the family's dog alerted the

homeowner to somebody inside his child's bedroom. When he approached him, police say the alleged intruder was naked and charged. The homeowner telling police he fired two shots to protect his family. Scottsdale police were trying to find out if this was connected to another break-in down the road earlier in the evening. To Kirk Nermy, renowned defense attorney and author of Trapped with Miss Arias, now parts two and three, my final words on Amazon. Kirk Nermy, apparently some people like defense attorneys are arguing that this poor guy, he was just confused and he has a mental ailment. And he just wandered into this home and he didn't make a move toward the daughter or toward Dr. Aaron Lutowski. He was just standing there and that Dr. Lutowski basically executed him. Well, of course, that's a load of BS.

But that is what is being argued in some corners today. How can a defense attorney argue such a thing? I mean, the guy was standing there with, I think, a big piece of wood, which is, by the way, what Ted Bundy used at the, I think it was the Chi Omega house in Tallahassee to bludgeon people to death. A piece of wood he just picked up outside and he's naked. Hello? I know your intent when you show up in the bedroom naked. I don't need a prosecutor to tell me motive. So how can defense attorneys say that with a straight face, Kirk Nermy? Well, to be clear, I'm not in that camp and I don't quite understand the argument because the doctor here in this situation is not obligated to assess the mental health of the perpetrator that's in the room, as you said, naked with a deadly weapon.

He's not forced to do that. The law in Arizona states that he can defend himself and others. And we see that his daughter was, you know, somewhere like three to five years old by the pictures. He has every right under the law, under Arizona law, to protect his daughter from that imminent attack. So that argument falls on deaf ears with me as well, Nancy. Well, I agree with you. That's everything that I just said. But my question is about the camp that is promulgating now that is saying that this guy shows up innocently, was confused, has a mental ailment, and that he made no move toward the daughter and no move toward the doctor. That is what we are hearing now. It will be a cold day in H-E-double-L before this case ever gets

conviction in front of a jury. Take a listen to Fox 10 news reporter Justin Lum. Lutowski went into his daughter's room where he says the suspect came out with a large piece of wood, his face masked and his body naked. He basically was lunging at me so it was very quick. He had his hands in the air. I could see something dark or black coming at me and again it was very very close so I fired almost immediately. Two shots killed the suspect police believe to be an 18 to 19 year old man. The Lutowski's say this was the first break in at their home but they have always been prepared. God bless America and the second amendment. I'm glad I was able to protect my family.

God bless the police for coming so quick to take care of us. He is not the first so-called vigilante dad. Take a listen about a guy named Jeff Doucette. Now, this is from my old boss at Court TV. Doucette, a karate instructor, had abducted 11-year-old Jody Ploche several weeks earlier and taken him to California. When Jody was rescued and returned to his family, his father, Gary, was coping with reports that Doucette had sexually assaulted his son.

We didn't know what to do. You just feel helpless. Ten days later, when the police flew Doucette back to face trial, Gary Ploche was waiting with a gun. As the suspect came through the airport, I readied my camera and raised it up to get a close-up shot of him. As I got a close-up shot and as he got parallel to me, Gary Ploche shoots.

That's exactly what happened. This man, Jeff Ducey's son, was abducted by his karate instructor and confronted with the news that his little boy had been sex molested by the karate instructor. The moment the instructor was extradited back to home turf for trial, he stepped off the plane and the dad shot him dead. Very akin to what has just happened. crime stories with nancy grace guys we are talking about a homeowner who hears the dog barking uh there in scottsdale goes to find the door open looks immediately in his children's room, and finds a naked man wearing a mask, which is significant,

as long as you're talking about intent or motive. He's obscuring his face, completely naked, holding a club, a piece of wood of some sort. So he shoots him dead. Now there is discussion that he, the daughter, should be prosecuted. I don't think it's ever going to happen, but he is by far not the first vigilante dead. Speaking of Gary Plouchet, take a listen to this. Gary Ploche shoots and kills him. Gary, why? Gary, why? Gary, why? And to this day, it stands out in my mind, the shooter, Gary Ploche, says, if it had

been your child, you would have done the same thing, too. Today, Abram McGaugh is an assistant U.S. attorney and views that tape through the eyes of a federal prosecutor. I would have to say the videotape was the most ideal witness in this case. You could actually see him take the gun out of his boot, pull it up to the shoulder lever of Jeff Doucette, and pull the trigger and shoot him. Yet, Ploche, after pleading no contest to manslaughter, got off with only five years probation.

So he was prosecuted. He was convicted. He got straight probation. to mark class joining me in the unique position to address what dr rotowski did what went through your mind when you saw your daughter's kidnapping well when i i mean when i saw him the thing that immediately struck me was his inability to make eye contact with me. Just the overall cowardice of the individual and the fact that this big macho guy was hiding behind the law, which so many of these characters do. And that's why Dr. Letowski is a hero to me. He didn't let so-called criminal justice get in the way of him taking care of the business that needed to be taken care of. Now, if this guy had been taken and he had been put into a system, he would have been out in a few years and he would have perpetrated again and again and

again until this guy would have ended up like Richard Allen Davis, the guy that murdered my child. So I think that Dr. Lukowski is an American hero. And I applaud everything that he did. And I'd shake this man's hand if I had an opportunity to do so. I'm with you 200 percent as usual, Mark Klass. Joining me, Director of the Cold Case Research Institute, Cheryl McCollum. Cheryl, jump in. Nancy, I believe that parents not only have the right to protect their children, I think it's their duty.

And when I hear somebody like Mark talk, here's what resonates with me. When does that threat stop for your child? Having to put your child through a hearing where they've got to see that person and be eight or four feet from them, and they've got to talk about what occurred to them and what that person did to them. That child may not understand, why are you not keeping this person from me now? Why don't you stop it now? So, again, I believe when our founding fathers made it the Second Amendment, there's a reason it's number two. It isn't number six.

It isn't number seven. It isn't number 16. It's number two. It's important for us to protect our children and lethally when necessary. To Dr. Kendall Crowns, Deputy Medical Examiner, Travis County, Texas. That's Austin, Austin. Dr. Crowns, I'm trying to make sense of what the other doctor, in this case, the homeowner, Dr. Aaron Lutowski, is saying, because I firmly believe that while people lie all the time, forensics don't lie. And I believe that if you look at

the trajectory path of the bullet that went through the perpetrator, the masked naked man standing over the little girl's bed in her bedroom in the middle of the night when the rest of the family was all asleep. I believe the trajectory path of that bullet will corroborate what the doctor, the dad, Aaron Lutowski says. How can that be? How can forensics corroborate his story? Well, there's a few things. So it can corroborate the story of the fact that he's nude. When someone is shot wearing clothing, bits and pieces of the clothing can be dragged into the wound track and it can leave fragments of the clothing so you could you mean when the bullet goes through say your shirt tiny fragments of your shirt go into your body via the bullet yes i can okay that's correct so that way you could prove

he was naked you could prove how he was yeah the position he was standing in based on if the bull's going front to back, left to right, the trajectory. So you can get an idea of how he was facing and how he was standing. And also, if the doctor shot him at close range, you can get stippling, which is the gunpowder or gunpowder tattooing on the skin from the gunpowder actually embedding in the skin itself, depending on the range of fire, which you won't see in an individual who has clothes on. Trying to take in everything you said back to the trajectory path of the bullet. Would you explain that one more time? Sure. So if the perpetrator's facing

him, as the doctor says, and comes at him with the piece of wood, when the bullet hits the body, it should hit like the chest area and then exit out the back. And so you would know based on that trajectory that the person was facing the shooter when they were shot which again would corroborate the story that the perpetrator came at him dr kendall crowns i want you to take a listen again to our cut to fox 10 news reporter justin lum because there's something significant forensically in what he says listen natalski went into his daughter's room where he says the suspect came out with a large piece of wood, his face masked and his body naked. He basically was lunging at me. So it was very quick. He had his hands in the air. I could see something dark or black coming at me. And

again, it was very, very close. So I fired almost immediately. Two shots killed the suspect, police believe to be an 18 to 19-year-old man. The Lutowski's say this was the first break-in at their home, but they have always been prepared. God bless America and the Second Amendment. I'm glad I was able to protect my family. God bless the police for coming so quick to take care of us. Did you hear what he said, Dr. Kendall Crowns? He said the suspect had his hands in the air with something dark in one hand lunging toward him. What

difference would it make in the bullet trajectory path if the perpetrator, the burglar, had one hand or both hands in the air, holding the wood like a spear or a baseball bat, and going forward, lunging forward toward the doctor, the dad, Aaron Letowski. How would that change the trajectory path? So you could change the trajectory path if the individual is lunging, saying their body is kind of tilted forward. You can see a difference in the entrance and the exit wound's height based on how the body is tipped. As far as the hands being up in the air at the sides, I don't think it would change anything in that regard. But the lunging would change the trajectory path. And also, we know that the prosecutors or the crime scene techs will look for gunshot powder residue not only on the victim, but on the dad himself.

Victim perpetrator, that is, the guy who shows up in Dr. Lutowski's home, butt naked, wearing a mask, and brandishing a hunk of wood, standing over his little girl's bed in the middle of the night in the dark. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we were talking about claims among some camps that this doctor who shoots down a guy in his own home, standing over his daughter's bed, buck naked in the middle of the night, used excessive force. Now, I don't think anybody on this panel, even Kirk Nermey, agree with that, but it's happened before where a so-called vigilante dad has actually been prosecuted. Take a listen to ABC News reporter. Listen. A frantic father called 911 after finding a farmhand, Jesus Flores,

allegedly sexually assaulting his little girl. The Lavaca County District Attorney's Office released the dramatic call. So that's 10-9-1, it's an emergency. I hear the ambulance. Okay. I hear the ambulance. This guy was breaking my daughter and I beat him up. And I don't know. I don't know what to do.

The 911 audio is just part of the evidence presented to a Lavaca County grand jury who chose not to indict the father. District Attorney Heather McMinn tells us why. And under the law in the state of Texas, deadly force is authorized and justified in order to stop an aggravated sexual assault or a sexual assault. All the evidence that was presented by the sheriff's department and by the Texas Rangers indicated that that was in fact what was occurring when the victim's father arrived at the scene. When that dad goes after the guy molesting his little girl, he ends up facing a grand jury who is there to indict you. Take a listen to another ABC News reporter. For neighbor Michael Vate, the decision not to indict wasn't surprising. He grew up with a young man. Went to school with my kids. Great guy. I mean, calls me Mr. Vice. Yes or no, sir. A well

mannered kid. Prosecutors say you can hear the young father trying to save Flores in the 911 audio. I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. You need to sign me a road number. Vait hopes his neighbor's family can now recover. My man actually lost his life. It's sad, but I think justice was served that day. In that case, the dad goes all the way to a grand jury.

To Kirk Nermy, why? That's a good question. I mean, we just heard the district attorney there earlier talk about how Texas law allows for this sort of defense. So I guess the question in the prosecutor's mind might have been, did it go so far? Did it exceed what he needed to do to protect his daughter? Based on everything I've seen, it didn't. But that must have been the question that they put before the grand jury. Did he go too far?

To Mark Klass, founder of Klass Kids Foundation, what do you make of that dad being taken all the way to a grand jury when he goes after the guy who he sees molesting his daughter? Yeah, I remember this from your last show. We covered this case before, and it stood out at that time, too. This guy was doing something that every father in America, every father in the world would do. I think this is primal. I really do. I think this gets down to a very elemental state of being, and I think that you'll find this anywhere in the animal kingdom he did what he is internally programmed to do he protected his child why they had to take it to the grand jury perhaps they had to show that there was some semblance of of a justice system involved in this

i don't know but the way it resulted the fact that he was able to walk away from this with a clean conscience, not to mention the guilt that he's going to have to carry for the rest of his life, for this even occurring to his daughter. I think that ultimately justice was served. And I hope this young man's been able to get on with his life. Because, again, like the other doctor, like Dr. Lutowski, this man is a hero and I'd love to give him a hug. Guys, it doesn't turn out this way every time. Take a listen to NBC 15 Mobile, Alabama News Anchor. A defense lawyer says authorities are overreacting with a murder charge against a Coleman County man charged in killing his daughter's sexual abuser. 41-year-old Jay Maynor is charged with the shooting death of 59-year-old Raymond Earl Brooks. The family says that Brooks was sexually abusing Maynor's daughter, who is now speaking out about the incident.

I was so, so young. I don't remember when it started but when I finally told someone I was eight for the first time in my life I do not feel scared for the first time in my life I do not wake up feeling fear Coleman County investigators couldn't confirm whether the 2002 sex abuse case had any connection to the shooting but Brooks was a registered sex offender. The Coleman County Sheriff's Office reports J. Maynor will be charged with first degree murder, attempted murder and shooting into an occupied dwelling. Mark class. Did you hear that? In that particular case, this girl, Julie Maynor says she was sex abused by her adoptive grandfather, Raymond Brooks, for years. Then the dad finds out and goes and shoots him dead.

Then he is actually prosecuted for murder. Did you hear that? Yes, of course I did. And these are two events that occurred at very different times in everybody's life. The little girl was being abused by the step-grandfather for many, many more years than he was punished for having committed that crime. I think he was abusing her for three years or four years, and then he spent less than two years behind bars. And it was only many years later when the young daughter, not so young anymore, talked to her father about all the emotions that she had gone through. The fact that she's still haunted by this event in her life,

is the trigger that set him off. And again, it's a matter of protecting your children. It's primal. It's elemental. Guys, take a listen to WVTM NBC 13's Jeff Eliasoff. Julia Maynor is only 24 years old but for most of those years she suffered through unshakable memories. My granddad molested me as a child. I don't I vaguely remember like I can still remember his smell which is awful to me. Her grandfather Raymond Brooks who adopted her mother was convicted of molesting Julia repeatedly until she was about eight and a half years old. He served 27 months of a five-year sentence, got out, and then two summers ago, Julia's father, Jay, exacted revenge. He shot and

killed Brooks. On Monday, Jay Maynard, seen in Julia's pictures, took a plea deal and is going away for 40 years. For Julia, the pain of the past is rushing back. Well, I overcome PTSD from a little while, you know. I mean, I overcome that, and now I'm having to re-overcome something that hasn't happened in 14, 15, 16 years. A multi-generational tragedy that keeps developing. Her adoptive grandfather is dead. Her father now in prison perhaps for the rest of his life. You know, Mark Glass, that is just bass-ackwards. That's wrong. 41 years because you shoot your daughter's molester?

I think I still have Mark with me. If not, I'm going to go to Cheryl McComb. I think Cheryl's going to agree with me. Oh, I completely agree with you, honey. And not just that, I have an issue with the word revenge. I don't think it's revengeful at all. Again, when does that threat stop? When does her mental trauma stop of him being out, of him being in that community,

of him popping up at her favorite restaurant, not being able to go to the library, not being able to go to church, not being able to go to the grocery store without the threat of your rapist being there. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking about a brand new case of a so-called vigilante dad. His name is Dr. Aaron Latowski. Take a listen now to our friends at Fox 10. This is Justin Lum. For Aaron Latowski, his sole responsibility is protecting his wife, three kids, and their nanny. Don't forget the family dog Sadie, who

Lutowski says alerted him late last night to a break-in. And so I came inside and I saw that one of our side doors was open and she was barking down the hall towards my kids bedrooms. Right away Lutowski says he grabbed his shotgun. Meanwhile the rest of the family was asleep we never would have known we would have continued to sleep and sleep through it so i'm just so thankful letowski went into his daughter's room where he says the suspect came out with a large piece of wood his face masked and his body naked to karen start joining me uh renowned psychologist joining us out of New York. Karen, when you heard Mark Klaas say, it's something primal, how do you interpret it? You're the one with a psychology degree.

You know, the whole time that Mark was talking and whenever I'm on with him, I really do tend to agree with what he's saying. I do know that that is something that parents feel. They really do feel that their purpose is to take care of their children. I've also known parents when their child dies and there was nothing they could do when they had an illness, something that killed them, still feel terrible guilt and responsibility that they never get over because they believe they were meant to take care of their children. I don't know what father in his right mind wouldn't do exactly what Dr. Erin Lutowski did. Yes. Back to you, Levi Page, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Refresh me with the

facts. Dr. Aaron Lutowski, it's about 10.30, 11 o'clock at night, and what exactly happened? So, Nancy, it's Scottsdale, Arizona. It's around 11 o'clock at night, and Dr. Aaron Lutowski, he's a urologist. He'd been working late, and he got home, and when he walked in the door, he noticed that the Doberman, which is a great guard dog, Sadie, was barking near his daughter's room. He opened the door, and this man was naked, wearing a mask, not a mask that you wear to go to the grocery store during a pandemic, but a mask covering his entire face. And he said that this man had a piece of wood in his hand. His arms were up in the air and he lunged at him and he shot him twice and killed him. And this is what is really odd. Police have not been able to identify that masked man that he shot and killed. Wow, that's really odd.

How do you do that, Cheryl McComb? How do you not know the dead guy is naked in the bedroom? Well, clearly he didn't have a wallet on him. We don't have ID. Nobody's reported him missing, so they're going to have to use fingerprints or some other means to identify him at this point. You know, I'm thinking back over what if anything

else he could have done to Mark Klaas joining me, founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. What about it, Mark? What else could the dad have done in that moment? Dr. Lutowski did exactly what he had to do. I mean, he was protecting himself as well as protecting the rest of his family, because this individual was attacking him with in the dark, with a board, with a baseball bat, with some piece of wood that could have could have destroyed the doctor. So I think that, you know, he's perfectly within his rights on every level that you can even imagine for doing exactly what he did. You know, I find it completely twisted that some people think that there should at least be a grand jury into Dr. Aaron Lutowski's behavior.

We are learning now, we're just getting that the victim's name is Cameron Ye. Y-O-E. 18-year-old Cameron Yo. Now, where is he from? Don't know. What's his history? Don't know that either. I mean, when Sheryl McCollum said he didn't have his wallet, that was a joke because he was completely naked except for a mask that covered his entire face guys this is not the first so-called vigilante dad take a listen to wtte fox 28 kelly joyce 18 year old raymond frolander standing before a judge charged with sexual battery his face swollen and bruised. Daytona Beach Police say Frolander was beaten by the father of the victim. I attacked him viciously and I didn't stop.

The only time I paused was to go to the kitchen and retrieve a butcher knife because I was going to kill him. This 35-year-old father, Jason, says he walked in on Frolander, a family friend, attacking his son. Jason told police he went out for a bite to eat and when he came back, he heard something in the bedroom. I found my son Raymond in the room. He called 911. I just walked in in front of a grown man molesting me, and I got him in a bloody puddle for you right now, officer. When Daytona Beach police showed up, they found Frolander unconscious. He was taken to the hospital, then to jail.

Police say Jason won't face any charges for the beating because he was protecting his child as a crime was being committed. Police also say Frolander admitted to the sexual battery. Guys, we were talking about yet another case where a dad walks in, finds their child under threat, and takes action. Here, as you heard him say to 911, he's got him beaten into a bloody pulp. Take a listen to WTTE Fox 28, Kelly Joyce. This father wanted to show his face and let you know he thinks his son is a hero. Because I was going to kill him. My son stepped in front of me and saved his life. He just looked at me and said, sir, and shook his head and said, no. I just put the knife down. I just wouldn't traumatize him any more than he already was. Jason says his family is trying to

heal, but he felt he needed to talk publicly about this case to let all victims of sex crimes know they do not need to be afraid to come forward. wants to do the you know not my family not my family or they got a wait till it hits close to home and all that nine out of ten of these are an uncle of a brother something Jason tells us his son is in counseling he says he's a very tough kid who will get through this. He says this has not only affected his family emotionally, but financially as well. To Mark Klass, founder of Klass Kids Foundation, we're talking about who in their right mind would want a dad prosecuted. If you look online right now, there is a movement called Raymond Frolander is Innocent.

That's the guy that the dad here, Jason, walks in on molesting his little boy. It's Raymond Frolander. And all these people online have created this site, Raymond Frolander is innocent. And they say to the little boy, please tell the truth to everyone now. We know Raymond did nothing to you. What about it, Mark Glass? And we wonder, wow, why are dads prosecuted? Yeah, I think you just made the closing argument

for everything we've been talking about earlier. I think the thing that stands out about me about this case is there's a very precious element right in the middle of it. And that's when the little boy stands between his father and his abuser and tells him not to go any further, not to kill him. And the father then acknowledges that the son is a hero for taking that very brave stand. But look at the result. Look where it's at now. There are people calling the perpetrator an innocent individual. And, you know, you're going to find armchair quarterbacks absolutely everywhere, particularly

in this day and age. And we just need to be protected from those guys. And how could that have happened? I guess we'll never know. Okay. Mark Klaas, are you sitting down? I am. You maybe should lay down on this one. Other people in this group, Raymond Froehlander's innocent, actually say this.

Do you know something more about this? Was something going on between Jason, the dad, and Raymond, the alleged molester? Did Jason keep his mouth closed on account of his father's behavior? So they're not just saying they can't be happy. This is what you call an Internet troll. They can't be happy saying, well, you know, nothing happened. The dad's wrong. They have to then go the other step and suggest some relationship between the dad and the perp.

It's so wrong, Mark Klass. Speak to it. Well, it's absolutely pitiful. And we see Internet trolls going after everybody for almost anything that is said or done online. And I don't know who these people are. I don't know where these people come from. But I wish that there was a way that we could stop them. But again, there you are, the First Amendment, not the Second Amendment, gives them the right to, to blurt out whatever happens to be on their mind and memorialize it on the internet. It's pitiful and it's sad and these are people that should be ashamed of themselves because they're just doing nothing

more than inflicting more and more and more harm on innocent people who are trying to heal from a grievous injury. To Kirk Nermy, your now defense attorney who defended Jody Arias and author Kirk Nermey, I really do not believe that this dad, vigilante dad, Aaron Lutowski, is going to be prosecuted. I don't believe it's even going to go to a grand jury. But if it does go to a grand jury, I guarantee you there's going to be a no bill. I agree with you. I don't even see it going to a grand jury. I couldn't imagine the county attorney's office seeking to prosecute. But even if it goes before a grand jury, I would agree with you, Nancy.

I think it's not a ham sandwich, but it would still die there, as they say. This dad is no defendant. This dad is a hero. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend.