Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - 'Daddy’s Dead': Cabbie’s Kids Learn Dad’s Dead Day After He’s Beaten

Episode Date: August 22, 2022

Five people were sought in the death of a New York City taxi driver. Three arrests have been made so far. Kutin Gyimah, 52, was brutally beaten to death after chasing the group when they refused to pay their fare, then tried to rob Gyimah. As the three men and two women beat the dad of four, one of them struck him and caused him to fall, where his head slammed against the pavement. Police said Gyimah suffered severe wounds.   The husband and father had just left his home in the Bronx 90 minutes earlier. A GoFundMe page is raising money for funeral costs and to help support the family. Joining Nancy Grace Today: Peter Smith - Of Counsel, The Law Offices of Ken Belkin (New York City), Criminal Defense, Family Law, Civil Litigation, BelkinLaw.com Dr. Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, Atlanta GA, AngelaArnoldMD.com, Expert in the Treatment of Pregnant/Postpartum Women, Former Assistant Professor of Psychiatry, Obstetrics and Gynecology: Emory University, Former Medical Director of The Psychiatric Ob-Gyn Clinic at Grady Memorial Hospital, Voted "My Buckhead's Best Psychiatric Practice of 2022" Dr. Kendall Crowns – Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth), Lecturer: University of Texas Austin and Texas Christian University Medical School,  Chris Byers - Former Police Chief Johns Creek Georgia,  25 years as Police Officer, Private Investigator and Polygraph Examiner,   www.chrisbyersinvestigationsandpolygraph.com  Tina Moore - New York Post Police Bureau Chief, Twitter: @TinaMooreReport   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A loving father of four, brutally bludgeoned dead. An innocent cabbie, a taxi driver, trying to make a living working all kind of hours day and night to support his wife and four children. He's dead and I want to know why. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. First of all, take a listen to our friends at Fox 5. Police continue their search for the suspects who murdered a taxi driver. Now his widow, heartbroken, speaking out.

He was a good, good man. He was my backbone. I'm lost right now. These are four children that are going to grow up with no father. And I'm angry because this could have all been avoided. We need to look around us and say, what city are we living in? Four children left behind without a father. A murder like this doesn't just claim the life of the murder victim. The victim's families live through the wake of pain that the perps have left behind.

Four children, and listen to their ages, eight, seven, five, and three. The three-year-old may not ever even remember dad. And you know, another thing about that, little children somehow always think it's their fault whatever happened. For instance, when there's a divorce, the child thinks, it's my fault. I caused daddy or mommy to leave. Much less in a case like this. They may grow up thinking, wow, my dad was working night and day as a cab driver to support me. Well, this is my fault. If it weren't for me, he wouldn't have been working those crazy hours. And then the wife left to raise the children alone. This is a tragedy beyond so many normal proportions. But what happened?

Take a listen to our friend Rosanna Scott Fox 5. Police say early Saturday morning he was dropping off five passengers along Beach 54th Street and Far Rockaway. Investigators say the passengers did not pay their fare. They tried to rob him. That's when police say this cab driver chased them. He was hit in the back of the head by one of those suspects. He fell to the ground, lost consciousness. He died at the hospital. Dead at the hospital. Now listen to our friend Astrid Martinez at CBS2 and our friend Alicia Reed. With the final punch, Gemma falls to the ground. The husband and father of four died from severe head trauma. My husband was a good man. He was everything we had.

He was my children's hero. Witnesses say he started chasing them, three males and two females, when he was hit in the back of the head. The taxi driver fell to the ground, hit his head, and lost consciousness. He later died at St. John's Hospital. Joining me, an all-star panel of guests to make sense of what we know right now. But first, let me go to a special guest. It's Tina Moore, our friend and colleague, the New York Post Police Bureau Chief of the New York Post. Tina, thank you for being with us. What can you tell me about this dad of four and this brutal death? So he gave, what was it, five people a ride.

Then they tried to rob him and took off? Right, they tried to run without paying the fare. That's really how this started. You know what, I started with a pointed question. You start at the beginning and tell me, Tina Moore, what happened. So the five people, they tried to run without paying the fare. That's how this really got started. He chased them.

He wanted to get paid. He worked really hard really got started. He chased them. He wanted to get paid. He worked really hard, long hours, and one of them hit him. One of them, a young man, a 20-year-old, allegedly hit him, and he hit the ground. He was taken to the hospital and died. You know, this guy, this father, Kutin, supporting four people, working crazy hours. One of five delivers a fatal blow to his head that knocks him unconscious. Believe it or not, the five include three girls. Girls. And you can see them in video, taken, I guess, by bystanders, beating, kicking this unarmed cab driver, the dad of four, in the head, the side, the stomach, it looks like a violent gangland movie where the victim is lying on the floor, cringing, going in a fetal position, and the kicks and the hits just keep on coming. To Tina Moore joining us from the New York Post Police Bureau.

Tina, who took the video? It's a surveillance video, Nancy, from the scene. You're talking about the girls. I feel like, and this is really just violence for violence's sake, it seems like, which is terrible. I doubt the girls realize the repercussions, though. I'm sure only that man who hit him is going to get charged with murder or some level of manslaughter. Well, I have to say i disagree joining me peter smith with the law offices of ken belkin joining us out of new york his specialty one of them

criminal defense and you can find him at belkin law no no i am not going to be happy with just the one person that delivered the final fatal blow, being charged with murder. O-H-E-L-L-N-O. That's felony murder. They were all acting together. For instance, Peter, if you and I go into, let's just pretend, Chase, Manhattan. You're in New York, right? We go in and I've into, let's just pretend, Chase, Manhattan. You're in New York, right? We go in and I've got a gun.

Let's just pick an Uzi. No, let's go with a sawed-off shotgun because I can easily hide that in my armpit. So we go into the bank and you tell me right before we go in, remember, nobody gets hurt. I'm like, sure, sure, sure. Let's just get the money. We go in, and all of a sudden, I go haywire, and I open fire with my Uzi and gun down the two security guards and a teller and an innocent person cashing their check.

And you're like, what did I just tell you? Guess what? You're going down for murder too, Peter. That is correct, Nancy. That is what you're describing there is felony murder. And that is a murder that is committed during the act of or commission of a felony. So by going into the bank and intending to rob it and commit a felony, if there's a murder that takes place that I didn't anticipate, I didn't think was going to happen, I had no intent whatsoever, it doesn't matter. It's one of the

few crimes where the mens rea, which is the intent of the crime, doesn't matter because you're already in the act of a felony. And you said something interesting. You said a murder that occurs during the commission of a crime, but I understand felony murder to be a death that occurs during the commission of a crime. Let's go on with our bank scenario. Okay, you're mad because I shot four people. Then we get in the car and it doesn't end there. I'm driving the getaway car and I run over somebody by accident, as my twins say, on accident. That was entirely not part of the plan.

That is also felony murder because a death occurs, even unintentionally, during the commission of a felony, a bank robbery. What about that, Peter Smith? Nancy, I have to say, you're correct again, and you might be the defense attorney expert here because your description of each one of these crimes is absolutely accurate. And it is true that it does not have to be a murder because, you know, murder carries an intent mens rea as well. So if you are driving that car after the commission of a felony and you hit somebody, you would be charged with felony murder as well. So if you are driving that car after the commission of a felony and you hit somebody, you'd be charged with felony murder as well. I'm just thinking about this family, this mother, and these children.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, you're hearing about the fatal, the fatal kick to the head was delivered by a guy. We think it all plays out on video as the three girls are dancing around, kicking him in the side, the stomach. Joining me right now out of Fort Worth, renowned medical examiner, Dr. Kendall Crowns, the chief medical examiner in Tarrant County. That's Fort Worth, who is also a lecturer at University of Texas and at Texan Christian University Medical School. As if you have time, Dr. Kendall Crowns, thank you for being with us. Explain what happened to this dad of four, Kootenjima. So when you're looking at the video, you can see that he's being punched or assaulted, punched and kicked multiple times, and he gets knocked to the ground a few times.

And then there's the final hit right at the end that looks like it's connecting with his head and neck and probably knocks him unconscious. He falls to the ground and hits his head. So there can be a number of things. He can get from an unprotected fall from a standing height, which he was at, you can actually fracture your skull and you can get what is called a subdural hemorrhage, which she was at, you can actually fracture your skull and you can get what is called a subdural hemorrhage, which is a... All right, can you slow down just a second? What now about the fall? So a fall from a standing height, if you fall without catching yourself on the concrete,

you can potentially fracture your skull if you're, you above five foot tall because there's enough force generated from that fall to the ground on concrete that it can actually cause you to have a skull fracture but the other thing is is your brain because your brain's kind of floating in your skull or your cranial cavity with the csf of the cerebral spinal fluid it's it's not like solidly in there it has a little wiggle room and when it hits a solid surface suddenly it causes the brain to jar and these little veins that come out of your brain that attach to the dura which this covering that's over your brain a protective covering okay you kind of lost me you lost me when you're saying the brain floating around in something.

What? Cerebral spinal fluid. It's the fluid that's associated with your brain, giving it nutrients, things like that. But your brain is not like fixed in your skull. It's slightly floating. So when you hit something hard, it causes your brain to suddenly move and it tears vessels. And when those vessels tear, you get bleeding in your brain that's called subarachnoid hemorrhage or subdural hemorrhage. And that bleeding causes you to, because your brain doesn't have a lot of wiggle room in the skull,

any space occupying lesion like blood causes your brain to become injured or damaged and causes you to die. Dr. Kendall Crowns, renowned medical examiner, joining us. Dr. Kendall Crowns, as you and I know, typically autopsy photos are not allowed in front of a jury. They never see what happens at the morgue. However, in this case, they may very well be allowed, and I'll tell you why. You just said subdural hemorrhages. The jury may not be able to tell from looking at the crime scene photos or looking at the body of this data for pre-autopsy that there's any bleeding at all. And I remember how hard I had to fight one time in a murder case. It was a Jane Doe. You couldn't see any injuries until the head,

very delicately done with a scalpel by somebody like you, very carefully the skin pulled back from the head, and then the subdural hemorrhages, the bleeding, the bruising, under the skin is on full display. They may be able to look at this guy and not realize what really killed him until you look under the skin. You only see that after the autopsy. Right, and I've seen this before. A lot of people with these one punch falls, hit their head. Of course, this gentleman is not a one punch, it's multiple

punches and kicks. But you can kill someone if you punch them and they go unconscious and they fall to the ground and hit their head because of the injury that's caused by the jarring force hitting the ground causes bleeding on the brain and all that. So one punch can kill you if you knock them out and they hit the ground. Now, as his wife that you heard earlier, Abigail, and their four children were going about their business, little did they know that Daddy was being attacked in broad daylight by a pack of thugs. But they found out soon enough.

Take a listen to our friends at CBS2. We're told within two hours of leaving for work this morning, police called with the tragic news. Described as a peaceful man, took his last ride at work Saturday morning. Why do you have to attack somebody for no reason? How much maybe is that money? And you took somebody's life. Come on. Police say the taxi driver drove his five passengers to their far Rockaway destination.

And it was there at Beach 54th Street and Arvern Boulevard where the suspects didn't pay their fare and tried to rob him. All over a fare. All over the fare. They get out, take off running. He tries to run after them to get paid for the fare. And they turn on him like a pack of hyenas, is the way I understand it. When I look at these pictures, Tina Moore, it's amazing.

Over, for instance, a $30 fare, they've all surrounded him. He's down on the ground. And it looks like the three girls are almost dancing with their feet up in the air, their hands up in the air, kicking this guy down on the ground on the cement. They've got him totally surrounded. It's horrible. It's so violent. It's just unbelievable. It's horrible. It's so violent. It's just unbelievable. It's just really bad.

I don't know what to say. You know, it feels so bad for his kids, his four kids. And another thing I noticed, Tina, is this is in broad daylight. He's only been gone from home two hours. And it's right beside, it looks like, a playground or a tennis area. I can see park benches and trees. They're right there at a playground or park in broad daylight. They have no fear.

They don't care who sees them. No, they don't seem to have any fear at all. They're not that much older than his kids. So it's just a horrible tragedy. Which brings me to my next point. Guys, speaking of the age of the thugs, take a listen to our friends at CBS2. This is Alicia Reed. The devout Christian. He and his wife have four children. The oldest, only eight years old. She's so young to fear this with four children. Too bad.

State Federation of Taxi Drivers is offering a $15,000 reward for information leading to an arrest. Friends and family are trying to wrap their minds around this terrible loss. Loving, loving and caring gentleman. Hardworking, hardworking. Takes care of the family yeah we've really lost a dedicated father funeral expenses are being covered by gimme's employer the state federation of taxi drivers is holding a rally sunday morning we're told the family is expected to attend all in all how many perps are suspected, Tina Moore? Five. I understand they range from 20 to 13 years old.

We believe they are 13, 15, 16, 20, and 20. To Dr. Angela Arnold joining us, a renowned psychiatrist, joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. And you can find her at AngelaArnoldMD.com. Dr. Angie. Yes. It's a pack mentality. People do things in a group they wouldn't normally do if they were by themselves.

Years ago, it was called wilding. When preteens, teens get together and just go crazy. They may knock down mailboxes. They may spray paint or murder. What's the mentality? Well, Nancy, people can do things in a pack and feel like they're, first of all, they feel supported if they do things in a pack, okay? It's also known as herd mentality, mob mentality, and gang mentality, okay? So when you say gang, you're not meaning that they're the Bloods or the Crips or some other gang.

It's just a group of people. Yes, yes, you're exactly right. And it's defined by elements of hostility and fear, okay? And if you're within the pack, you have to play by the rules of the pack or you might get kicked out of the pack. So that might be what was at play here also in this pack mentality. You know what's so odd? Joining me, Chris Byers, former police chief at Johns Creek, 25 years on the force, now private investigator and polygrapher at chrisbyersinvestigationsandpolygraph.com. That's a mouthful. That said, Chris Byers, you don't normally see girls, teen girls, this young, we believe 13, 15, 16, brutally kicking an adult male down on the ground in the stomach, the chest, the head.

I mean, think about the mentality of rearing back like you're kicking a football and kicking somebody in the head. Is there lying on the ground? Yeah. All I can think when you were talking just now about her being 13, the youngest, my daughter turned 13 last week. And all I can think is, you know, what can bring a 13 year old to that much anger? I mean, there's just zero respect for life there and you know i think back when i first started in law enforcement in the early 90s this was you never saw girls especially teenage girls involved in this kind of stuff so it just shows

where we've come as a society now and how much we respect life now or disrespect life you know it's interesting i want to follow up on what Chris Byers just said, PI. Dr. Angie Arnold the other day, my son, they're 14, they're twins. John Dave was tormenting his sister, and she took a spiral notebook and hit him. And can I tell you, all H-E-double-L got rained down on the both of them because there's no hitting, no hitting. And that was just over a swat with a spiral notebook. I mean, how do you get to the point where it's okay and you go along with kicking an unarmed man?

This dad, Kooten, and I'm thinking about my own dad and my husband, down. He's down on the ground. And they're continuing to kick at him and I'm sure screaming and laughing and cursing at him. And they don't let up until he's dead. Well, you know, Nancy, they're probably, I mean, they, again, the mob and the gang mentality that is going on creates its own energy. And no one wants, once they get into this, no one wants to seem like a wimp. None of them are going to say, oh, we better stop. Okay?

Because they're also, believe it or not, trying to gain a certain amount of status. Who are these people? I can't even call them kids or children. Because when you look at these videos, they're killers. They're killers. And you know what I'm looking at right now? This incredible photo. He's such a handsome man.

And here he is with his wife, Abigail. And they're pictured together. And they're so in love. He's all dressed up in a suit. And she looks like she's got on a church dress. And these beautiful smiles. Their whole life in front of them. Their prides and joys.

Their four children. And looking at him, it just reminds me so much of my dad, who would get up, sometimes, as he called it, he'd work the first trick, Peter Smith, which means the first shift, sometimes second, sometimes third, sometimes overnight shift on the railroad. Never complained, never complained. Peter Smith, you have tried and investigated so many cases. Did you ever wonder why is it always the really great people that get murdered while the evildoers, the POCs, technical, legal term, piece of craps, they live. Yeah.

Well, I mean, so I actually grew up in New York in the bad old 80s and 90s. And, you know, I remember the palpable fear of, you know, not knowing what was going to be around a corner when you turned it. And I think that, you know, a lot of the times it's the good people that are victimized because they're the ones that are out there still doing their jobs, still plugging away and having faith in the city as a place of opportunity. So it is heartbreaking. And my heart does go out to the family of the victim. You know what I've noticed at Peter Smith? Have you ever had a vehicular homicide and the perp that kills everybody is totally drunk and they live they're like sprawled out on the seat and all the family in the other car they're all dead have you ever seen that and

i always walk away going why does he get to live and this whole family's been wiped out by this one guy the all the good people the innocent people are killed and they walk free. And the perp walks free. Yeah, I mean that happens often times and it is a tragedy and at the same time that perp needs

to live with what he or she did for the rest of their lives. And often times that prison can be pretty horrific alone. But I do agree that it is a tragedy at all times. Please, Peter Smith, if you're starting with me about how bad prison's going to be, thank you, Tina.

I couldn't bring myself to laugh, but that's what I was thinking on the inside. I recognize your laugh, Tina Moore. So who are these perps? Take a listen now to our friend Johnny Fernandez at ABC7. Now police say we're originally looking for three teenage girls. Now police are looking for two of those girls. The other girl is treated as a witness. In regards to the one that police are looking for, they are expected to be charged with gang assault. Today his widow spoke out again about the heartbreaking death. It was my children's hero.

It was my backbone. It was the one I looked up to. I look up to God, but aside God, he was the only one I looked up to. And now his life has just been cut short just like that. She says she forgives the people involved in the homicide, but wants justice for her family. Turn themselves in because they're going to be caught wherever they are. Even if they are not caught by man, God is going to bring them in. You know, this woman that is enduring so much right now, can you imagine just today, her waking up?

Nobody's on the other side of the bed. There's no money coming into the home. The children are wondering, where's Daddy? What happened? And she's got to feed them and clothe them and get them to school and somehow explain to them how everything is going to be all right when inside she knows it's never going to be all right. They're going to grow up the rest of their life

without a dad. There's just really no replacement for your bio mom, your bio dad, or your adopted parents. You know, you lose one of them, Dr. Angie, and I don't think you're ever the same. Well, you're not, Nancy. You know why? Because, Nancy, that sense of security is taken from those children. Nothing will ever be normal or the same for them. And you feel so secure within your family that your parents have built for you. And now to have someone just taken away, particularly in such a tragic way, how will those children ever sleep through the night again and feel secure in themselves? You know, another thing, Dr. Angie, that you can address, Dr. Angela Arnold joining me,

psychiatrist out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. You know the story when I gave birth, Lucy and I almost died. And I remember being in the hospital and my lungs were just full of blood clots. And I was praying, Lord, please just let me live long enough to get them out of the hospital and to get them well because they were really premature.

And then, so I made it that far. And I'm like, Lord, just help me live to get them settled in and healthy and established in school, you know, making their way. Every year, Angie, I'm like, oh dear Lord in heaven, there's something else. Now they're teenagers. Now people are going to want them to drink and do drugs and get in trouble and get run over and blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, oh, dear Lord, help me live. And wait until they go to college, honey.

I know. I'm sure God is like, here she goes again. What does she want this time? But these children are as young as three years old. Well, the three-year-old is probably going to be a bit better off than the older ones because the three-year-old will live a different life than they live. The eight-year-old is going to be the most affected by this because that one's life is going to change. The three-year-old, believe it or not, Nancy, will, I mean, I hate to say this, but they will fare better than the

rest of the children. Why is that? Because their new normal, they're going to have a new normal and they're not really going to remember how it used to be. And they'll become very accustomed to their new normal. Okay. That was harsh. The other kids are going to be shaken up. The older children will be, because their life is going to change. Tatina Moore joining me, the Bureau Chief at the New York Post Police Bureau. Tina, how do you, I mean, I've gone in and hauled out witnesses and defendants out of public schools, out of private schools, you name it, off playgrounds. How do you go about finding three teen girls? The video surveillance is grainy, to say the least. How do you go about finding these five perps that killed the father of four?

I don't know what kind of evidence they had from the ride itself, if they had anything, if any of them dropped anything, or how they summoned the car, maybe to an address where they had been. And then also, the older kids were probably easier to find, but I'm sure they knew who the younger kids were. I'd be surprised if police didn't already know who those young girls were at this point. You know, you just brought up something really smart, Tina Moore, backtracking the fair, the taxi fair. Where was the pickup?

That's what they do. I mean, if it's in front of a home, well, there you go. Who lives there? Who lives in that neighborhood? And once you crack a case, Peter Smith, here we have five co-defendants. If you can catch just one, let's just go with a 13-year-old girl, she'll talk. We hope. How does that work?

That's correct. And I think that the state's best approach here would be to get one of the other children, other than Mr. Amos, to flip. You know, he is the one that struck the fatal blow. And if he can get to, if the state can get to some of the other perpetrators, they'll be able to use them to prove their case and to identify anybody who hasn't been identified at this point. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Chris Byers, former police chief, Johns Creek at Chris Byers Investigations and Polygraph.com. Chris, how do you do it? How do you, without violating the Constitution, of course, how do you get a 13-year-old girl to tell you the names of the other perps? You just, of course, with 13, you're going to have law enforcement interviewing them and probably somebody from child advocacy. But you just find something whenever you've got somebody in an interview room doing an interrogation, you find some way to connect with them, some way to show them that by telling what you're looking for is going to be better off on them in the long run. But gosh, having a 13 year old in there is just it's just tragic.

And I would hate to be the investigator having to do that. And there are special protections to make sure that what they say is safeguarded constitutionally so whatever they say will come into evidence guys uh the search for these five thugs is on take a listen to our friend astrid martinez police say a 15 year old girl was taken into custody just a couple of hours ago. This as the search continues for those remaining two suspects. Three people are now in custody in connection with the beating death of a Bronx taxi driver, Kutin Gemma. His widow was emotional after hearing of the first two arrests.

His life has just been cut short just like that. hearing of the first two arrests. Gemma in the red shirt was kicked and punched by a group of passengers after he confronted them. Police say they refused to pay their fare and tried to rob the driver early Saturday in the Far Rockaways. And of course, the 15-year-old starts blabbing. Take a listen to our friend Nicole Johnson at PIX11. Sources tell PIX11 News Amos turned himself in with his mother Thursday morning. He has at least six prior arrests including for robbery, criminal mischief, sexual misconduct. Porter is currently on probation for larceny. Police say at least two girls were also involved, ages 13 and 15. This 20-year-old guy, Austin Amos, has quite the criminal history.

At least six priors, robbery, criminal mischief, criminal contempt, sex, misconduct. And then he comes into the station with mommy supporting him. You know, before I get into him and his six priors, Dr. Kendall Crowns, I'm thinking about the data for Kutangema. He laid there on the cement, bleeding internally. He was pronounced dead when he finally got to the hospital. That tells me that he laid there and suffered. Do victims like this, are they aware of what is happening to them? Do they want to try to get to the phone and call their wife or their

family? I mean, he was seen raising his arms to protect himself from the attack, and they continued their onslaught. At one point, he got up on his feet, and one of the men, who I believe to be Austin Amos, whacked him in the head, and it sent him literally flying to the ground. So he was bleeding internally. How would he have died, Dr. Krause? And what would he have been conscious of?

So probably with the head injury, he's going to die from the bleeding on his brain. Probably that last blow, he was knocked unconscious and is completely unconscious, so not really feeling anything. But prior to the last blow, he's, you know, he's feeling the pain of the punches, the fear of being assaulted, not knowing what's going on, and all that. You can, with brain bleeds, have a period of consciousness where you're still able to function.'ll have a headache you'll start vomiting and things like that from the injury to the brain but apparent from what i saw in the video it seems to me at that last blow he's knocked unconscious he's probably not feeling anything at that point

you know uh what so it's like salt in the wound. After the five suspects flee the scene, leaving Gemma to bleed out with a fatal head injury, lying on the sidewalk, they are actually caught on camera again, walking away and heading inside a residential building. And they're all smiling. I'm looking at the video right now. They're all smiling after they literally take turns. They get the guy down on the ground and they take turns kicking him. And then they're smiling, Peter Smith, high profile defense attorney. What would you do with that other than try to get it suppressed? Your client taking their turn, beating the guy already on the ground, kicking him in the head, and then they're all smiling and laughing as they walk away. What do you do with that, Peter?

Have fun. I appreciate that, Nancy. You know, the biggest issue here, and I know we spoke about it earlier, is always going to be intent and, you know, what the intent requirement is for the crime. If it is manslaughter, you know, did they intend to cause an injury that was a substantial risk of death? Them smiling and laughing, and I hate to say it, but could be evidence of the fact that they did not believe that their actions would cause serious injury to the point of death. And so that they lack that intent necessary to prove the crime. Good luck with that. I have a question for you, Peter Smith. You're a very wily criminal defense attorney. Isn't it true that under the black and white letter of the law, that the law presumes you intend the natural consequence of your act?

For instance, if I took a piece of fine china, you know that china that's so fine you can kind of like see through it? And I take the china and I throw it down on a cement floor. Wouldn't the law presume I intended to break it? No, the law is not going to assume that you had that intent. We are all innocent. No, the intent, you intend the natural consequence of your act. So there are always two parts of a crime. There's the mens rea and the actus rea.

The actus rea is what you're describing. You threw the plate down on the ground and it broke. The other side of that is always the intent and the law is not going to presume to know what your intent is. They still have to prove that. So in this case, they would have to prove that the perpetrators intended to cause serious bodily injury that could result in death. And, you know, there's a possibility that in the commission of their original crime, theft of services, and they were trying to get away, that they did not have that intent. What do you think would be the natural consequence of kicking someone repeatedly in the head? I mean, the natural consequence or the natural intent could be to simply delay them from continuing to pursue you

and not necessarily to cause death or to cause serious bodily injury. Guys, this is not the first time a cabbie or a delivery person has fallen prey to jackals like these five. I don't know if the name Ryan Graham Muncy jogs your memory, but this will. Take a listen to our friends at NBC5. Wife and mother of three small children, Ryan Graham Muncy was working her Uber Eats delivery job Saturday night when she was murdered, found in the breezeway of the Northern Cross Apartments in Haltom City. I believe she was delivering food to somebody in that building. The 31-year-old did not make it to the customer's door before she was killed.

A motive isn't being made public. There you see this wife and mom of three working Uber Eats on a Saturday night attacked just doing her job. And she's not the only one. Joshua Ungersma, listen. Lafayette police were called to this address just after 11 p.m. last night. When they arrived, they found two men shot and killed in the street. One of them was a Domino's pizza delivery driver. The Domino's store less than a mile away confirms 37-year-old Josh Ungersma

was making deliveries last night. Josh was a delivery driver for us for over a year. He was a great guy and a great employee who was working a second job to provide for his family. To Dr. Angela Arnold, people out working trying to support their family. I'm very curious about the thinking of predators that attack them. Well, Nancy, do you think that necessarily the predators are just attacking them because they're out working? I have a feeling that they're out working and that makes them an easy target because they're out and about. I don't necessarily think that the predators think, oh, this person's working, unless they're thinking about the money they may have on them. To Tina Moore joining us, the New York Post Police Bureau, what happens now? They've got to get, I agree with the person, I believe it was the attorney who said they've got

to get probably one of these kids to turn on what else happened here, right? For like to get to intent, like, you know, what was their intent or what are they trying to do? And to, they have the main person, the puncher killer identified at this point and in custody. And they have two other people in custody. So finding, like I said, I think they already probably knew, I'm sure they know who the other two girls are at this point. It's a matter of figuring out how to put their evidence together to build a strong case against the people they want to charge with the most serious charges.

There is a $15,000 reward. Go to 1-800-577-TIPS, 1-800-577-8477. There is also a GoFundMe online for Kutin Jimah, K-U-T-I-N-G-Y-I-M-A-H, a husband and father. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace Crumb Story signing off. Goodbye, friend.