Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Damning evidence in case of 26-year-old gunned down inside own apartment by cop claiming 'wrong apartment'

Episode Date: September 17, 2018

A Texas grand jury will be ask to decide if Dallas police officer Amber Guyger should be charged with murder in the shooting death of her upstairs neighbor, Botham Jean. Officer Guyger is already facing a manslaughter charge after admitting she fired the shots that killed the 26-year-old. Benjamin Crump, a civil rights lawyer who represent's Botham Jean's family, talks to Nancy Grace about the case. Also on the panel are private investigator Vincent Hill, North Carolina lawyer Kathleen Murphy, psychologists Caryn Stark and Lauren Howard, and syndicated radio host David Mack. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The number one answer that I want is, what happened? I have asked too many questions and I've been told that there are no answers yet. I'm looking forward to all of the powers that be to come up with the answers to make me more satisfied that they are doing what is in the best interest of getting justice for Botham. You are hearing the mother of Botham Jean. That's Allison Jean speaking through her pain as she searches for answers as to why her son, a really shining star,

a 26-year-old young man with his life before him. Had done great in school. Had an awesome job. Had a beautiful apartment that he kept neat as a pin. He's at home reading in his apartment at night when a cop, a Dallas cop, comes through the door. He stands up and she guns him down dead. And the defense is, I hope you're sitting down, that she was in the wrong apartment. She thought it was her apartment. Now, I had a problem with that. Now, a lot of people claiming, oh, it's a

racial issue. You know what? Maybe it is. I don't know that. But my real problem, I don't care about the white, the black, the this, the that. I care about how can a cop who's just come off duty, who we assume is going to be stone cold sober, maybe even a little wired up from working a beat on the street, still in uniform, goes to the wrong apartment, doesn't notice a key fact about a bright red doormat. His apartment has it. Hers doesn't. Did you notice that? We're now taking a close look at the apartment itself. The numbers on the apartments are lit up in neon. Neon. You walk in, you can't see that's not your furniture, but still gun somebody down.

Now we are hearing that the doors to the apartments, and I've had these in many places where I live, so I know, and still in New York, a heavy metal fire door is your door. That's very common. A heavy metal fire door that automatically slams shut, allegedly in this building where Botham lived. And listen to this natural sound we've obtained of the video of how this door works. okay you can't hear it at the beginning but you can hear it with the shutting that that's one of those heavy metal doors when my apartment door closes uh you can hear whether you barely, it's three inches to the door jam or not, you can hear clunk just like that. That says a lot to me, which I will explain. Joining me right now, syndicated talk show host, Dave Mack.

Also with me, renowned New York psychologist, Karen Stark, Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina lawyer, and Vincent Hill, Nashville PD turned private eye. Dave Mack, let's just start at the beginning for people that are not familiar with the shooting death of this young 26-year-old man, Botham Jean. What happened that night? An off-duty police officer who had just finished her shift, who lived directly below the victim here. She comes home, she parks in the wrong parking deck, one deck higher than she normally parks, and goes into, if you believe her story, she goes to her apartment, what she believes to be her apartment, and the door is ajar. She opens the door, lights are all out, and she sees the silhouette of a man who is not obeying her commands to

do whatever. The problem here is that we don't have an answer as to why or anything else, except for the fact that we have one dead 26-year-old young man and a police officer with no reasonable story that can be believed. I'm taking a look at the door right now. The front door of apartment 1378, directly below both of James. Now, this is Amber Geiger, the police officer's front door of apartment 1378, directly below Botham Jeans. Now, this is Amber Geiger, the police officer's front door. The panel to the left of her door has the apartment lit up in neon. You can't help but see it.

Jackie, look at this. See, that's how it looks. It's a long rectangular strip by every door. Very clear. And it's kind of like, I don't know what that style of art would be, geometric. It's a rectangle. It looks to be like maybe three or four feet long. It's beside, to the left of every door, it's decoration. And there are several

squares, lit up white neon squares within the rectangle. It's vertical. And underneath the first square, you see your apartment number lit up, 14781378. It's literally lit up in neon beside the door. That's what I'm saying. Botham Jean was shot and killed by a Dallas police officer, Amber Geiger, who says it was a mistake that she went into Botham Jean's apartment, 1478, thinking it was her own, 1378. But the door numbers are clearly visible. Now, let me go back to you. David Mack, syndicated talk show host, what can you tell me again about the red, bright red, deep red doormat?

Well, it was something that Bo put there on purpose to differentiate his apartment from all of the others around him. And if you actually look at the pictures we've seen, nobody else has a red mat in front of their apartment and certainly not Ms. Geiger. She didn't have a mat in front of her apartment. There's no excuse there that that could have been a mistake. There's nothing to her story. A red semi-circular doormat outside Botham Jean's apartment. Hers was bare. I would have noticed that. If I came home and suddenly there was a bright red doormat that I hadn't bought,

because I know, I can tell you this, my husband David is not slung up at the Bed Bath & Beyond. That's not happening. And nobody but me is going to take time out to order anything on Amazon. Not happening. In fact, our code to Amazon is highly classified because if the twins had that, I'd be in the poorhouse for sure. So if I came home and see a red doormat, I'm going to notice it.

And you've got to keep in mind, as I was describing how the numbers are lit up in neon, I'm looking now at the front of the apartment. It's very geometric looking. Check this out, Jackie. Jackie Howard here in the studio with me. See, everything, if you look at the front of the building, is tall, rectangular. It's very geometric designing the building is a square it's very let me just say contemporary and the front of the building is decorated in rectangles different types of rectangles now also as she would Jackie's holding up a sign yes that you would feel the doormat as you walk across and get your key, which leads me to the key. Hold on, Vincent, Kathleen, and Karen.

I just got to give you these facts. David Mack, tell me about the key. It's an electronic key, right? Yeah, they're electronic keys, and they won't open any door other than the one that they're coded for. So the key for 1378, Ms. Geiger's apartment, would only open 1378. It would not have opened 1478. And you got to remember, her claim that the door was ajar, we already proved earlier that that wouldn't happen because they automatically closed. So the options for what she's claiming, nothing holds true to her story at all. But that key,

the electronic key, the only one that would work is 1478. And both those keys were found inside the apartment. Guys, speaking of murder, if you have heard about the murder of Jessica Chambers, do not miss the new docuseries on Oxygen. It's the true story of a teen girl, a cheerleader in Mississippi, who is burned alive. and the story of the man accused of this heinous crime. Is it the right guy on trial? Who is he? And who is Jessica Chambers? And how does such a horrific crime occur? With more questions than answers, this is a case that has captured national headlines, taken over social media, and leaves a small town divided. This is a must-see TV event.

It features exclusive interviews that take you inside the investigation as the search for answers and justice goes on. Unspeakable Crime, The Killing of Jessica Chambers, Saturdays at 7, 6 Central on Oxygen, the new network for crime. I am faithful because of Botham. As you all know, there are times when you feel like giving up. I could not give up because of Botham. I'm right now in his death. I can never give up. Because I know

that Botham is singing with the angels and I want to join that choir. The incredible composure of Botham Jean's mother, Alison Jean, speaking before the church congregation about her son who was shot dead in his own apartment, reportedly lying on the sofa or sitting on the sofa reading when a Dallas cop, a female, Amber Geiger, comes in and opens fire. Joining me, Vincent Hill, private eye, former cop, Kathleen Murthy, North Carolina lawyer, Karen Stark, New York psychologist, and syndicated talk show host, Dave Mack.

Let's start with you, Vincent Hill. What do you make of it? Nancy, there's so many things missing here that I question with this story. I mean, she says she went in, she saw a guy which she thought was her apartment. But here's the thing. As a police officer, if I'm yelling commands, I would expect some neighbor to be able to say, yes, I heard her say, show me your hands or something like that. We didn't hear any reports of that, Nancy. And we also tell citizens, hey, if you get to your house

and you see your doors open, don't go in. Come out and call police. Why didn't she call for backup if her door was ajar as she claimed? And more importantly, where's this missed key reading if she put her key into that door? Because it's all electronic. It's all monitored. So we should be able to go in and see, yes, she did indeed put the key in the door, but I don't think we'll be able to see that. You said something very important. Well, everything you said was critical. In my mind, Vincent Hill, you're a former cop turned private eye. Speaking of the neighbors not hearing her say, stand down, stand down, put your arms up, put your hands in the air. No, in fact, witnesses are coming forward claiming they heard bamming on the door and a woman yelling out, let me in, let me in.

Now, Vincent Hill, eyewitness testimony is often attacked under cross-exam. What about earwitness? Yeah, I think there's no question these neighbors heard exactly what they heard. The problem, of course, when this goes to trial is how can you identify that voice? You know, but at this point, that's neither here nor there. More importantly, Nancy, I would expect someone, because trust me, as a police officer, and I did that job for many years, if I'm yelling at someone with commands and my weapon is drawn, you better believe the entire

neighborhood would be able to hear me. Man, you're not kidding about that. If you've ever been at a scene where cops yell, put your hands up, put your hands up, they are screaming it out. Kathleen Murphy, veteran North Carolina lawyer. Kathleen, I can't help but wonder if there's some connection between Botham and Botham Jean and Amber Geiger, the cop, because the story doesn't make sense to me. But on another note, when I'm saying eyewitness testimony is often attacked in court, earwitness testimony could be a problem as well, unless there's more than one witness saying they heard it. Well, there is a connection, Nancy, and I'd like to read this,

but she wrote a complaint to the apartment complex about our victim, that he was making too much noise. And that was about a week before this incident happened. And Vincent makes wonderful points. But on a previous show, he also made a point that she would have not gone into a dark room. She would have had her flashlight on. And Botham's sister said he's afraid of the dark. So was he reading a book in the dark?

And there's just too many holes in the story. And there is a connection there. You know, she had only lived in the building for a very short time. It was a very expensive building. The price is in the block. It's Dallas's gentrifying Southside area. Start at $9.45, rising to $2,435 a month. Now, the Dallas Police Headquarters on Lamar Street is directly next door. Now, this guy, Botham Jean, was a graduate of Harding University in Arkansas. Now, it appeared that both he and Geiger had good relations with all of their neighbors. I'm very curious about this noise report that you're telling me about that she filed on him. I know there were noise complaints that day about upstairs activity in his apartment.

He got a call about noise coming from his apartment from the downstairs neighbor. That had to be her. Is that the report you're talking about, Kathleen? It is the report I'm talking about. And I don't know if it's a written report or not. I don't know if she called it in, but there's a report out there made by her against our victim. Now, according to his family, they say they did not know each other. There was no relationship. Katja, she had only been living there a month, a little over a month prior to the shooting. And if it's her, had already been complaining about noise overhead.

I'm looking at her right now and him. According, again, according to his family, no relationship. To Karen Stark, New York psychologist, we now have complaints that the victim in this case, Botham Jean, who never has had any police problem, nothing, is now being attacked and dragged through the mud. His reputation. Why? I would think that that would have to do with the fact that she's a police officer, Nancy. So they're trying to find ways to make it look like he was doing something wrong. There was something suspicious going on, trying to back her up in some way by denigrating this guy, which, along with the whole story, is a mess because it doesn't make a lot of sense. This is a good kid who really sounds like he was sitting there innocently and was shot. And I wonder about her own anger, the policewoman. Was she excessively aggressive?

Did she have a history where people knew that? What's her history in the police force, too? Well, what they're saying right now, there are complaints. Dallas police investigators seeking evidence reportedly, according to their critics, to discredit Botham Jean, who was shot dead by a white off-duty officer. Now, that's according to the victim's family. Police did execute multiple search warrant at Botham's apartment in the aftermath of the killing. And complaints are they should have been in her apartment looking for whatever they could find, evidence relevant to the homicide investigation.

But instead, they were looking in his apartment. What about that? You're a former cop, Vincent Hill. Well, Nancy, I can understand the search warrant of his apartment simply because it was an active crime scene, right? There was a shooting there. So I understand that piece of it. But what they found in that search warrant has absolutely nothing to do with the shooting. There's reports that 10.5 grams of marijuana were found there. So what? He was in his apartment. If he's using marijuana for recreational use, who cares?

It has absolutely nothing to do with the shooting. But I would assume a defense attorney will come back and say, well, there was marijuana found. That's why he wasn't listening to her commands. And that's what caused the shooting. I think that's what the intent here is, Nancy. Well, what about the use of deadly force? She just says in her own statement that she saw him and took out her pistol, took out her firearm. I don't understand that that is the correct standard for an officer to use deadly force, Vincent.

Well, any citizen can do that, Nancy, if you come into your home and you see someone in there, and you can protect your domicile in that way up to deadly force. So I understand that part. But what I don't understand is based on her training and based on what we tell citizens to say, there's someone in my apartment, send backup. Nothing like that, Nancy. Only until she called 911 from her cell phone did she even alert police that something was going on. When police go in to search, it's signs of life, and they're very poignant. A half-eaten bowl of cereal, a flip-flop still lying there where he was killed, metal fire doors that slam locked, contradicting her claims that it was open and she went in. I'm looking at the scenes, and it looks as if he was sitting there, maybe even having

cereal and reading. I'm looking at it. It's an autobiography of Gucci Maine. There's his flip-flop, the home with a large stack of pillows on the sofa, pillows and blankets there. I'm just looking at it. It looks like a typical guy's home, kind of messy, kind of clean. And I can imagine him sitting there minding his own business just before he is gunned down. Right now, more questions than answers in the shooting of this unarmed man in his own apartment, just 26-year-old. Right now, joining me, a special guest, the lawyer for Botham Jean's family, longtime friend and colleague, Benjamin Crump.

Ben, thank you so much for being with us. Now, why are you sure, or are you sure, that the shooting was racially motivated? We don't have any evidence at this time to demonstrate one way or the other whether racism was a factor in this crime. I would be more focused at this point on finding motive. Of course, the state doesn't have to prove motive, but in this case, any jury is going to want to know the motive if it's not a racially motivated crime. For instance, I know that she, the officer, had complained and made a noise complaint. Did they have words? Was she angry? Was he angry?

According to witnesses now emerging, they heard a woman bamming on a door saying, let me in, let me in. But let me ask you this, Ben, do you have any reason to believe Officer Geiger and Botham Jean had any connection before the shooting, like some kind of relationship. Again, we don't have any information to know that at this time. And that's one of the big things is we're waiting to get the phone records, not only from Botham Jean, but also from the police officer's phone records to determine if they had any interaction whatsoever.

You know, everyone with me, Benjamin Crump. Ben, how could Geiger not know it wasn't her apartment? Because of the big red, and I mean red, candy apple red rug, you know, one of those semi-circular rugs, doormats. And there was a different number. Not only that, it was lit up in neon, Ben. It's just mind-boggling when you think about it. Botham John had a big red rug right out front in his apartment

for the very reason people would know that that was his apartment. Also, when you think about the probable cause affidavit that they used to issue the warrant, in that statement, the Texas Rangers, based on what we believe could only be her account, says that the door was ajar, that it wasn't locked. And that's hard to believe when you look at that door, how it has a very heavy latch that pulls the door closed. The door won't stay open on its own. And the fact that she claims to have put the key in the door, well, if the door is open, why would you put the key in the door? These are things that just trouble Botham Jones' family to no end because they still cannot understand why he is in his apartment, minding his business, doing everything he has the legal right to do, and The police officer breaks in and kills him.

And now she's attempting to claim in some way a self-defense argument. It just makes no sense to them at all. I mean, guys, you've got to look at this from both of Jane's family point of view. Think about it. If you're in your own home and a cop comes in the front door and shoots you dead while you're in your own home there was a half-eaten bowl of cereal there were books laying around was he just sitting there having cereal reading a book and now he's dead we are looking for answers and to you vincent hill uh former cop turned pi vincent did you hear what ben just said and he he's right I've been concerned about this big

metal door. We just played it. You can hear it slam shut. And I can relate to that because that's the way the door is in our apartment in New York. It slams shut. I have to rig it to make it be open. Like if I go out to throw trash down the shoot, down the hall, I have to rig the door to make it be open. Like if I go out to throw trash down the shoot, down the hall, I have to rig the door to make it stay open or it will shut behind me and I'll be out in the hall. So we played that. You can hear the door shutting, but listen to this, Vincent Hill, based on what Ben Crump just said. Officer Geiger does say she used her key. Now, I think it's an electronic key, but if the door was ajar, why would she need to use her key? Why would you even go in if the door is open when you get home, Vincent? This story doesn't make sense. Well, Nancy, there's just too many contradictions in

what she says. It was ajar, but I used my key, which is an electronic key. Again, I want to see a record that the wrong key was put into his door. That should be recorded because all of that is electronic. But police officers tell people, when you come to your house, your door is ajar, call us, wait for us to go in and clear it. And I'm troubled that I didn't hear any radio transmission from this officer saying, hey, someone's at my house, please send some additional units so we can go in and clear my house, because she didn't know if it was her apartment, what was on the other side of that door. It could have been five or six people

waiting there to ambush her, so why would she just go in? Well, here's another thing to Dr. Lauren Howard, New York psychologist joining me. Lauren's the thing she probably and I'm projecting felt that as a cop she had to explain I had to say something give some explanation okay she couldn't take the field for Pete's sake but her story is getting all twisted up well it's getting all twisted up because when a story gets twisted up what does it tell you that the story's not accurate you know one thing we know is police do uh gather around one another i mean it's pretty rare for police to get convicted and and that's wrong i mean that is patently wrong whether this was racially motivated or based on a past history between the two of them, some disagreement they had, or simply just she screwed up, walked in the wrong apartment, saw a large person, and shot first.

It doesn't matter. I mean, when you say cops rally around each other, they're like family because they've been in basically combat conditions for years on end. And in their mind, they're like, I know her. She did not do this on purpose. But they may or may not be wrong. I hear what you're saying. Back to Ben Crump, the family lawyer for Botham Jean's family.

Ben, what has the family learned, if anything, from all the neighbors? I understand they've come forward to you with information about what they heard that night. Certainly. There were neighbors who came forward to the family and they believed that they heard not only conversation or verbal communication before the gunshots, they also heard knocking at the door on uh more than one

occasion before they heard the gunshots so if this was allegedly her apartment so she says why would she be knocking on the door that door that was open in their mind. So they don't think the things that are coming out in the media are accurate. So that's why they came forward to the family, and we then forwarded them to the district attorney's office and the law enforcement authorities to make sure that their statements were recorded for the use of information gathering in this case. Also, I might add that she admits that there were verbal commands that she issued. I want to ask you this, Nancy. You're in your apartment.

Somebody comes in and they start yelling at you and issuing verbal commands. Wouldn't the person say something back in response? Well, based on what we know from this affidavit, she claims that Botham Jones doesn't say anything in response. In fact, she claims that she just sees this dark figure in the shadows, and she shoots into the apartment from outside the apartment. Now, this is something that I don't believe even a reasonable citizen would do. But this is supposed to be a well-trained police officer. Where is that in the training, Nancy?

Where is that in the policy where you shoot into a dark apartment that you don't know who is in there? Why couldn't she have just taken the perimeter? She felt her place was being burglarized and called for backup. The police department was less than three minutes from this apartment complex. There is no reason Botham John should be dead. Black people get killed in some of the most arbitrary ways in America, you know, driving while black, while we're in our automobiles, walking while black, while we're in our neighborhoods. And now it's living while black, while we're in our own apartments and

houses doing everything that we have the legal right to do. And that's what's so outrageous about this case. Not only is it shocking to Botham Jones' family, it is astonishing to many sensible people, not only in America, but all around the world. This is Crime Stories. We are taking your calls. We are talking about the shooting of an unarmed man in his own apartment. The female cop that gunned him down claims she thought she was in her apartment. 90949-CRIME-909-4927463.

Let's go straight to the calls. This is Morgan from Texas, a law student. Hi, Morgan. It's very confusing. There's a lot of different facts and a lot of different theories out there. And I looked at this affidavit. It's not all adding up. And on top of that, I've seen that the victim's family is now being represented by Lee Merritt, a civil rights attorney. And he's contesting several allegations from, you know,

the way that Geiger has claimed to enter the apartment to the interaction between Bottom John and Geiger. And now I'm hearing of this new witness who didn't come forward to the police but is now telling the family that she overheard conversation and knocks and gunshots. So what do we do with this evidence or these facts, Nancy? And do we think that this manslaughter charge is going to stick, or do we think we're going to see a murder charge? I anticipate that the charges will be upgraded by the grand jury. Let me throw that to Vincent Hill, private investigator, former cop. Vincent, the ear witnesses that heard bamming at the door and let me in, let me in, they're going to be attacked on cross-exam because, again, there are those big metal doors and the defense is going to claim they could not possibly have

heard that. Well, I disagree because it's hot. There's a very good chance they may have had their windows open, but that's going to be an issue for a jury to decide if they're telling the truth. Yeah, that's definitely going to be up to the jury to believe it. But, of course, the defense is going to say, well, why didn't you go to police immediately when you heard that? Just like the caller said, you went to the attorney first. So as a defense attorney, of course, they're going to say to say well how do we know you're not making this up how come you didn't say this when police were there on the scene when he was shot so all of that stuff will come into question when this goes to trial nancy joining me right now a lawyer from florida welcome what's

your question one question i had Nancy is has there been any further discussion or mention of some photographs of the two of them of the victim and the and Geiger together I know some of those are floating around the internet I don't know if they're real and I wondered if you had any more information on that again knowing that you may not have access to a lot of information yet because it's an open ongoing criminal investigation anyway thank you for your hard work Nancy thanks for your call I have been disturbed by those photos as well and I've learned the hard way you think it's

someone in the patron it turns out to be someone similar to them so I'm waiting for these photos to be verified of both of Jean allegedly with officer Geiger before this incident I honestly cannot look at it objectively and say yay or nay so I'm waiting for that to be verified and if it is verified she is in a lot of trouble because it would prove they had some sort of a familiarity before the shooting very quickly to Ben Crump before he heads back into court Ben officer Geiger got some real curb services, I like to call it, by the police. She got in at 7 30 in the evening and out by 8 30, booked out the back door so she didn't have to do a perp walk. What was that, Ben? We certainly are concerned that this police officer is getting

preferential treatment. not only is she not arrested the day of the shooting because consider this nancy regular citizens you're an officer of court you're an attorney if somebody claimed that they allegedly went into the wrong apartment and then they shot and killed the innocent homeowner, we won't be allowed to go home that night. You would be arrested that night. And not only that, she is the suspect, but she's interacting with the crime scene, with the police officers while they're doing this alleged investigation. And so we believe that she is getting preferential treatment,

and she's been getting preferential treatment from the beginning. It took them over 72 hours before they finally arrested her, and that was very troubling to Botham Jones' family because they understood that their son was in his apartment innocent, and the person who killed him got to go home and sleep in her bed for three nights before she was even arrested. Oh, yeah, would still be in jail right now. Ben, what does that family hope the grand jury will do? Well, Botham Jones' family hopes and believes and expects that the grand jury will hear all the evidence, and based on that evidence, based on what they know, they believe it should be murder.

However, we have told them as their family attorneys that it is very difficult to convict a police officer, especially what we've seen in history, when the person is a person of color and the police officer is white, that there will be a conviction of murder. A manslaughter is an easier conviction to get from the prosecutor. However, if what these witnesses say are true, then it certainly will lean towards that this was a murder. We will wait until we get all the information to make that determination, Nancy, and then I will gladly come back on and share with you not only what we believe is strategy going forward in the civil wrong for death matter, but also what the family believes is the correct choice

based on the information that they are being given as the victims. Question, how is his mom doing? Well, Nancy, as a mother, you can imagine that this is her son, her child. He came from her womb. It is something that is so unnatural in so many ways, and Botham was doing exceptionally well in life. He was just a tremendous young man. His homegrown celebration was just one that would rival the best citizen

that anybody would ever know. He had the chairman of Price Waterhouse Cooper Accounting Firm. He was college educated. He was an accountant. He was doing everything right. He was a believer. He sung in the church choir. I mean, he was a tremendous young man on every level.

And so his mother is devastated. His mother is completely devastated that she had to bury her child. Ben Crump, thank you for being with us. Vincent Hill, Lauren Howard, Dave Mack. We wait for justice to unfold. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.