Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Dead North: A serial killer serves up victim as BBQ?

Episode Date: June 1, 2018

When Iron River, Michigan, police responded to a missing persons call, Chief Laura Frizzo had no idea it would start her on a years-long trail that would lead to a suspected serial killer. Kelly Cochran later told a detective she has murdered as many as 21 people, including two husbands. Frizzo, who lost her job as chief in a dispute with a city council member, is the host of an Investigative Discovery documentary about the case. Frizzo is Nancy Grace's guest in this episode, along with lawyer & psychologist Dr. Brian Russell, host of Investigation Discovery's "Fatal Vision" series, forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan, and DailyMail.com's Sean Walsh. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. finder truth finder may reveal court records bankruptcies contact information social dating profiles assets and a lot more you get it all in one easy to read report why fork out thousands of dollars to a private eye when you can do the job yourself go to truthfinder.com slash nancy and enter any name to get started. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. Did a beautiful young woman actually murder her lover and feed his remains to guests at a barbecue? As fantastical as that sounds, there is evidence that Kelly Cochran not only murdered her lover, but also her husband. As a matter of fact, this brunette beauty may be responsible for at least a dozen deaths. And joining me right now is a special guest, the former Iron River City, Michigan, police chief, Laura Frizzo, who has investigated and prosecuted this woman, Kelly Cochran.

Also with me, Dr. Brian Russell, lawyer and psychologist, host of the hit show on investigation discovery, Fatal Vows, forensic expert, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, Joseph Scott Morgan. And with me from DailyMail.com, Sean Waltz. To all of you, thank you for being with us. First to you, Laura Frizzo, former Iron River City, Michigan police chief. When did this woman, Kelly Cochran, first make a blip on your radar? Well, actually, it was the day that I took the complaint from a friend of my victim, Chris Reagan, who said that she believed something was wrong and that he was missing. It was probably within 12 hours of taking that initial complaint.

Wow. Wow. You know what, Sean Walsh, DailyMail.com, we've got two stories to cover. Thank goodness we've got former Police chief Frizzo with us. Sean, we've got the husband we think was killed by her and the lover, or the lover as you like to say. Let's start with the one that ended up on the barbecue pit, Sean. Well, this is an interesting one. Her friends and family have told investigators this stomach-churning tale of how Cochran allegedly served the lover's remains to her neighbors at a barbecue. It's kind of disgusting, Nancy. And one of those stories that left Daily Mail readers shocked that this could actually be happening.

But I don't understand. To Laura Frizzo, former chief, Laura, why would we think? And first of all, I got a problem with Sean Walsh to say that, oh, this is really interesting. You've got a very unique definition of interesting, Sean, but that's a whole other can of worms. Chief, if I may call you that, why do you believe that I did with Jason and Kelly Cochran's neighbors, who really ultimately are the only ones that socialized, spent any time with them. And through this, it was a three-hour interview that I did with them in which I let them basically talk to each other to kind of, you know, remember things that had occurred shortly after or around the time of Chris Reagan's disappearance. So, you know, Kelly Cochran had been fired from her job. They didn't have an income. The neighbors recall, you know, having them over for dinner because they felt bad for

them. They weren't eating. They didn't have any food. They didn't have any money. They recall, you know, this is the same interview where they recalled, you know, hearing these power tools running during the middle of the night. And then it was, you know, the week after that, you know, the Cochran's are inviting them over for dinner. They had them over three times that week for dinner. They thought that was odd. Where did they get the money? And, you know, then they recalled how there was, you know, just an abundance of meat. That it was, you know, nothing really,

any side dishes to go with the meat. It was just shish kebabs one night, and it was, you know, tacos one night. It was pizza. It was a lot of meat. That's what they recalled. And this is something that they recalled while talking to each other. This wasn't me questioning or, you know, kind of heading them in any direction. This was just, you know, what they came to, you know, through their own discussion. That was actually the first time that I became aware of the possibility of dismemberment, which, as you know, we found out did occur. So as things went on and, you know, later finding, you know, Chris Reagan's, you know, skull, and that being the only part of Chris Reagan that we found,

there's been many unanswered questions for me regarding, you know, what actually did take place and that, you know, if something like this could have occurred. Former Police Chief of Iron River City, Michigan, Laura Frizzo, with me. Chief, you've got me. I'm drinking out of fire hydrant here. It's just too much to take in. I'm talking about a barbecue spit where they serve nothing but meat. No sides, no buns, no salad, nothing.

And they invite them over three times in one week. They have tacos. They have shish kebabs, nothing where you could really identify if it's a chicken or a steak. All right. And I find that Sean Walsh, DailyMail.com, very probative. In other words, proving something. It's not like you cook a rotisserie chicken and you can look in the oven and there's a chicken or you grill steaks and you can see the T-bone. It's meat that has been processed in a way you don't know what it is. It's a mystery meat. Like I asked the children, what'd you have at school? Mystery meat. Well, why do you say that? Because I don't know what it was. It was just in a taco.

I don't know what it was. Here you've got shish kebabs and no veggies, just the meat. Then you've got tacos. I forgot what the chief said was the third night. But it's mystery. It's a mystery meat. Nancy, it sounds like when I stop by a food truck at Manhattan at 1 a.m. in the morning. Well, that's why you should not go to a food truck at Manhattan at 1 a.m. in the morning. Well, that's why you should not go to a food truck in Manhattan at 1 a.m. First of all, nothing good happens after midnight, Sean.

I've told you to go home and be inside before midnight. Everything goes sideways after midnight. You don't need to be out walking around in a food truck. But again, why is it always with you, Sean? It's always another can of worms. All right, you just go down these rabbit holes. But again, why is it always with you, Sean? It's always another can of worms. All right. There's just you just go off these down these rabbit holes.

Back to you, Chief. Can you tell me that one more time? The neighbors say in one way. First, they hear power tools all night. Then they're invited over. Now, I assume you're saying the husband and Kelly Marie Cochran invite them over because she's accused of helping her husband kill and dismember the boyfriend. Then she's charged with killing the husband to, quote, even the score. So if they, in quotas, are inviting neighbors over,

I'm assuming it's her and the husband are inviting neighbors over? Yes, that's correct. Chief, why would they want to kill the boyfriend? Why not just break up with him and be done with it? Well, that was, you know, a puzzle for a long time. I mean, from the very beginning of the investigation, I kind of went from, you know, thinking it's most likely that the husband, you know, had an issue with the affair and he, you know, he snapped. He had some emotional issues and, you know, basically was looking at him like, you know, he's the one.

And as time went on and I was able to obtain an extraction from, you know, Kelly Cochran's phone and read some, you know, text messages and communications. As I, you know, spent time reading those and going through their history, it became very evident to me that that wasn't the case, that this was Kelly's idea, that this was something that, you know, sadly actually turned her on. And that was evident in a text message that she sent to her husband just following the death of Chris Reagan. What was the text? You know, I mean, again, talking about the history of the text messages between them prior to Chris Reagan being killed, you know, Kelly and Jason did not have a good relationship. She was not good to him. She was not good to him. She was

mentally abusive to him. She was controlling. He was treated very poorly by her. She definitely controlled everything he did. And once Chris Reagan was out of the picture, and I want to say the day following his death, she's texting her husband, you know, calling him handsome, telling him that she's on her way home and that she wants him to, you know, bleep her. I don't know if I can say that word on this program. So basically very... I usually say have relations. Yeah, very explicit sexual messages, completely the opposite of the kind of relationship she had or the way she spoke to him prior.

What police believe went down? And Joe Scott Morgan, I want you to weigh in on the difficulty you face in dismembering. It's not like Dexter, where which i love by the way where you see dexter who this is a um i guess it was hbo or us i can't remember anymore long running series where dexter worked at a crime lab in florida and would find out about bad guys that slipped through the cracks and he'd go kill them. He was a serial killer. And he would do it in such a way that there was never any forensic evidence left behind. And in a TV show, it would take about 20 seconds for him to dismember somebody and get rid of the body.

That's not how it is, so I want you on the reality of that. But police believe that this woman, Kelly Cochran, and her husband, Jason, came up with a plan that the next night she would lure her boyfriend, Christopher Regan, who's also a co-worker, to her home with the promise of sex. And that Jason would then kill him. I'm not really sure what the motivation was, but that was the plan. The plan worked. And when Jason, quote, caught Regan with his wife, he shot him dead. Then the dismemberment began. Joe Scott Morgan, forensics expert, how difficult is it really to dismember someone? It is quite the chore. Nancy spent a lot of time in the morgue over the years, over 7,000 prosections of bodies during that period of time. And I've had some experience at this sort of thing in the morgue.

And it's not for the faint of heart and it's not to be done, entered into lightly without the proper tools. I'd like to say, first off, Chief, it's an honor to meet you. I think that you're a very brave person. And this whole case has got me really thinking a lot here, hearkening back to what Nancy said about dismemberment.

I'm amazed. You said that you guys had recovered the skull. I'm interested because one of the things here, you mentioned the sound of power tools, and obviously that is something that's in the forefront of your mind here. When you found his skull, did you guys at any point in time consult like a tool mark expert to see how the skull was essentially removed from the body? Were there any marks on there to indicate that there was a tieback to any specific type of tool?

Good question. What about it, Chief? That is a good question. You know, when we located the skull, it was, you know, the lower jaw was missing. There was a, you know, first thing that I looked for was the wound to the back of the head. As Kelly had described, that's where he had been shot and located that. You know, I had the ME out to take and collect the skull. The skull was sent to, you know, out to a forensic anthropologist for further examination

and identification. And I really, you know, I'm not sure that it was even, you know, able to be. Well, if the lower jaw was missing, you would not see a tool mark at the neck. Right. Right. For me personally, there was no indication of anything there. But again, there was a lot missing. Yeah, Chief, I was wondering, was there, but again, there was a lot missing. Yeah, Chief, I was wondering, was there, you talk about this injury to the back of the skull, and I'm assuming that there was an indication that this is a firearms injury. Was there any kind of communicating injury on the forward aspect of the skull? Like, you know, did it appear to be a through and

through injury? Were you guys able to recover a projectile? Did they bring out metal detectors and this sort of thing to search the area? So, interestingly enough, the ME did look for that possibility of damage, you know, within the skull for, you know, possible, you know possible exit wound or injury to the inside from that projectile and was not able to determine that. However, there was an area of the left side of the cheekbone that was missing. And amazingly enough, we recovered that piece. Really? Probably, I don't know, within

200 to 300 yards from where the skull sat. And that was the only other piece of human bone that we recovered in that entire area. Wow. And I think I know why. To Sean Walsh with DailyMail.com, isn't it true that it is believed

that Kelly Cochran used an electric saw known as a sawzall so husband Jason could cut up the corpse and then they divided his body between garbage bags and threw the bags in the woods around the Iron River in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. I believe that that's the theory cops used on the dismembering of the body, which, as I was trying to describe, is a really hard thing to do. Sean? That's correct, Nancy, and that's what DailyMod.com has been reporting, that the Cochran said about dismembering Reagan's body. She later admitted to getting a cord for an electric handsaw, as you called it, the Sawzall,

and so Jason Cochran could indeed cut up the corpse. Now, the body was believed to have been divided amongst multiple garbage bags and thrown into the woods around Iron, Michigan, in the Upper Peninsula. Reagan was then reported missing a few days later, and his car was found abandoned at a park and ride lot about four miles east of Iron River. Okay, so he's reported several days later. I guess when he doesn't show up where they had both worked. His car then found, as Sean Walsh tells us, at a park and ride about four miles east of the Iron River. Now, according to the local news, the daily news there,

police hone in on Kelly Cochran because she's the last one to see the boyfriend. And remember, she's still married at this time. Police search her home with the FBI and they found nothing. Absolutely nothing. To Dr. Brian Russell, lawyer and psychologist, host of the hit series on ID Fatal Vows. Dr. Brian, can you imagine how difficult it must have been to clean up the scene of a dismemberment of the body? That leads me to think they took him somewhere else to dismember him because they found nothing when they first went to search the home. Yeah, absolutely.

If what the neighbors heard with the power tools was the dismemberment going on in that house, and Joe Scott Morgan, of course, is the forensics expert here, but it's almost inconceivable in my experience that there would not be a trace of that activity on the scene. You know, this case is so, it is so morbidly fascinating because it really is like the movie and the musical Sweeney Todd come to life, in which, you know, of course, the husband played by Johnny Depp in the movie was the barber, the demon barber of Fleet Street, who would kill the clients in the barber chair with the straight razor. And then the wife who had the bakery downstairs would bake the remains into mincemeat pies and serve them to customers.

There's this idea of not only do you have a murderer or murderers, but you also have the additionally almost unfathomably grisly pleasure that they take in then getting unsuspecting third parties to participate in their cannibalism unknowingly. And so, you know, if I didn't know from being on Investigation Discovery for six years that the network is about real stories about real people, you would really just think that this is some kind of adaptation of Sweeney Todd. Wow. Just bring up the specter of Sweeney Todd. I hear you, I hear you. So Dr. Brian Russell, Joe Scott Morgan, Sean Walsh, two former chiefs, Laura Frizzo, they're in Iron River City.

Where do you think they dismembered the body of the boyfriend? I think that they did it right there in the house, in the basement, like we suspected. You know, as you know, it's hard to collect samples in concrete or areas of high iron. And one thing that we did notice later on subsequent searches in that house was that the Cochran's had these huge rolls of plastic, you know, that you would generally use if you were going to, you know, winterize your windows or whatever. And so we have these huge rolls of plastic. And one thing we noted in the basement

later was, you know, why is there some of this plastic kind of hanging up in the rafters and stapled up onto the rafters, the wooden beams on the ceiling of the basement. And I kind of looked at that area and realized that it's very, very probable that, you know, they had kind of like a little tent area there where they actually, you know. Wow, it is just like Dexter. That is exactly like the way Dexter would dismember bodies. Well, one thing to note is that Kelly Cochran has, you know, she went to college for forensics, and she has a degree in psychology.

So this is someone, you know, who actually knew not only how to act in her interviews or not to act, but she also was very familiar with the forensic angle of things. Okay, so even though at the beginning police found nothing to suggest a murder had occurred in the home. Cochran gets antsy, and she and her husband pack up and move to Indiana. Police go on with their investigation, and they believe that she is a person of interest, but a year passes, and still they got nothing. Then take a listen to this 911 call Kelly Cochran makes the day of her husband's death. Is that a hotel? No, I'm in a home. Okay. And how old is the person?

37. Just get me an ambulance here right now. Okay. Stay on the line with me. Okay. You said he's breathing, difficulty breathing? Three. Two.

Okay. I can't understand what you're saying. Difficulty breathing, sweating? No, no, he's still breathing. I'm on the phone with him right now. What exactly? Okay, I need an ambulance here right away. Okay, they've been dispatched.

They have been dispatched, but I need you to stay on the line. She goes on to write, and I think I need to shrink on this, Dr. Bryan. She goes on to write, she holds a memorial service, writing on Facebook that her husband's death was, quote, the hardest thing I will ever have to deal with. All right, Dr. Bryan, we know in retrospect she killed her husband. And she is writing on Facebook, this is the hardest thing I've ever had to deal with. Help me out, Brian. Well, you know, some of the most depraved killers that we see are actually quite good at manipulating other people.

One of the hallmarks of the sociopath is that they actually understand pretty well what makes other people tick. And this is actually the kind of intelligence that we're really talking about when we talk about the sociopath. Many people say, oh, you know, sociopaths and psychopaths, they're very intelligent. And really, that's not necessarily true in terms of intelligence like we would measure with an IQ test, like being able to do math problems and put puzzles together. Some of them are intelligent like that and they're extremely dangerous because they can actually think of ways to really minimize evidence and reduce the chance of getting caught and do lots of damage before they get caught. But how they're really intelligent is emotionally intelligent.

They are able to figure out how do I manipulate other people into becoming my victims? And then after the fact, how do I manipulate other people into thinking that I am a victim myself or that I had nothing to do with this? You know, you might wonder what was the motive the first time around when the boyfriend, the lover was killed and now the husband? Well, maybe the two are linked regarding motive. Take a listen to what Hobart, Indiana, police detective Jeremy Ogden says. Now remember, the husband and the wife, Kelly, moved to Indiana after the lover is murdered.

Here's what Indiana police say. Her and her husband had entered into this agreement on their wedding night that if one had an affair on the other, that it was their responsibility to kill the person that they had the affair with. And that if they didn't take care of their responsibility, then the other one could kill them. She's a very calculating, manipulative killer. I wouldn't necessarily put that number on it. I would say that, you know, I'm pretty positive that there are others. Tashaun Walsh with me, DailyMail.com. Sean, okay, so the lover's murdered. She and the husband moved to Indiana. The husband suddenly dies of an overdose overdose and she is playing the grieving widow. So how is she connected to his overdose? How do police know that was not an accident?

Well, it's interesting. So you say that she moved to Indiana, you make it sound really lovely, Nancy, but in fact, she was spooked and her and her husband packed everything up as quickly as they could, and they moved to Lake County, Indiana. The police continued their investigation with Kelly listed as a person of interest, and even though a year had passed, they still had nothing. Then in February of 2016, Jason died of an apparent heroin overdose. Kelly held the memorial service, as you said, and she talked about how hard it was to deal with, but police still weren't buying it. Michigan authorities then charged Kelly with Reagan's death. The U.S. Marshals Service tracked her down in Kentucky, where she was arrested that April and taken into custody. But how did they do it, Chief Rizzo? How did they determine

that the husband died of a murder, not an accidental OD? So I had been communicating with Hobart PD from the time that Kelly and Jason fled Michigan after I did that initial search warrant and just keeping an eye on them and, you know, kind of monitoring what they're doing and how they're living, you know, because there were other things that we needed to take care of with them and we wanted to be able to locate them. So Hobart really kept an eye on things and worked with us quite closely. And so when Jason Cochran died and we got word of that, there was actually a tip called in to the FBI tip line, as well as Hobart PD, from a friend of Jason Cochran's who said, you know, my friend is dead. I just got news. And,

you know, his message was, I feel like something's not right. I feel like the life might have been involved. And of course, getting that call in the tip line was huge because investigators weren't called to the scene of Jason's death. And had that not happened, it could have been, you know, the medical examiner may have not done as thorough a search for the indication of a homicide versus overdose. And so because of those things, Detective Ogden jumped in. He attended the autopsy. They did, you know, a very thorough examination. And then from that point,

Detective Ogden just jumped right in and investigated. This is what we learn. Police in Indiana get suspicious that her version of what happened tonight, her husband died, it kept changing. And as Chief Rizzo told you, investigators were not called to the scene of the overdose because they thought it was an accidental overdose. They got there. EMTs found Jason unresponsive.

They could not revive him, and it looked like he died of an overdose. But when he goes for autopsy, the Indiana Lake County coroner discovered the husband, Jason, did not die of an overdose. He died from asphyxiation, not heroin-Tribune reports that it's believed she, Kelly, delivered an overdose of heroin to her husband and then put her hands on his neck, until he died about one minute later. That is how we know it was not an OD. It was asphyxiation. To Joseph Scott Morgan, a limited question. How can you tell someone has been smothered or strangled dead?

In the event that someone has been smothered or strangled, you're going to look in the eyes for particular hemorrhages. And also on the surface of the neck, if they did an autopsy, there might be hemorrhage into the small muscles in the neck as well in this particular case. Take a listen to Hobart, Indiana, police detective Jeremy Ogden. She put it back on her husband as calling him, you know, a monster, possibly two different people inside of one person. And I think the judge called it right after her statement was over with. The judge said, you know, he feels the same as probably most of the people in the room, that she's the monster. To Dr. Brian Russell, lawyer and psychologist on Discovery's Fatal Vow series, same as probably most of the people in the room that that she's the monster to dr brian russell

lawyer and psychologist on discovery's fatal vow series how do you get to this point in a marriage where the two of you are cheating or one of you's cheating and you have a quote pact to kill the other everybody you you sleep with that the two of you will then kill them. It's crazy, Dr. Brian, but these people were not crazy. Yeah, you know, we've talked on this show so many times about, and certainly that's what Fatal Vows is all about, right? Marriages that have ended in some kind of a murder of somebody involved. And we've talked about in those contexts, the fact that when you have a cheating situation in a marriage, everybody involved is in danger.

The cheating spouse is in danger. The cheated on spouse is in danger. The person with whom the cheating spouse is cheating is in danger. And it is a morbidly fascinating illustration of the fatal vows situation here, because what we appear to have initially is a cheating situation in which the justification then for killing the affair partner is that, you know, we're going to make this right somehow. We're going to give the husband the satisfaction of seeing the affair partner killed and dismembered, maybe even consumed. OK, and then once that's done, then the husband becomes the target. And so, you know,

what we have here is this love triangle and, and only one of the three, uh, end points is still around. And that is this woman who apparently she comes up with whatever reason she needs to. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Laura Frizzo with us, former Iron River City, Michigan police chief. You actually had a chance to sit down and speak with Kelly Cochran. What did she say to you? I actually, I sat down with her while she was in her jail cell the very first night she was brought to Michigan from Kentucky. And she told me a little bit about her life.

She kind of opened up. It was a different side of her. I'm not sure why she was presenting that. But through that discussion, she told me many things about herself and how, you know, she was born the way she is. Nothing happened in her life to cause her to be that way. She doesn't have feelings. She doesn't feel sadness or remorse. And, you know, and actually the following day, we continued our discussion.

And I asked her, you know, how do you choose your victims? And her answer to me was opportunity. Opportunity. Wow. Listen to this. At the Caspian pit behind her house, Kelly shows police where she and Jason tossed part of the murder weapon. That's big stone directly in front of me,

right before that reed grass or whatever that is. So, out in that area? A little to the right and back towards us a little. It's not far because I figured I'd never tell anybody. When the Michigan State Police dive master called me and let me know that they found the gun, I was extremely excited, obviously. For me, it was validation. At Kelly's old house,

where she claims her late husband Jason shot Chris, Kelly points out a crucial piece of physical evidence, overlooked when investigators conducted multiple searches. Well, you said something about forceps? Yeah. Is that what you're talking about? Yeah. Here you go.

You're saying you used those? Yep. Kelly says Jason made her use forceps to try and pull the bullet out of Chris Reagan's skull. Did you know about a recent law that could leave your personal data exposed online for anybody to find? If you've turned on the news lately, you know the Internet has created a dangerous new world. Data breaches expose private information. There's a new cybersecurity threat every other day.

And criminals can sell the identity of you and your family on the dark web. It's time you take the power back by using a new website called Truthfinder. Truthfinder allows you to find out exactly what information exists about you online. Have you gotten a speeding ticket? Received a lien from the IRS? Forgotten about an embarrassing social media profile. Truthfinder searches through millions of public records, puts all that data together in one easy to read report. Members get unlimited searches so you can also look up those close to you and make sure they're not hiding something from their past. You also get free dark web monitoring to make Truthfinder the ultimate tool in identity protection. If your personal info appears for sale on the dark web, you'll be the first to know.

Visit truthfinder.com slash Nancy. Enter your own name. Get started. To Sean Walsh from dailymail.com who's been on the story from the beginning. We're talking about a young woman who injects her husband with a lethal dose of heroin, then smothers him with a pillow, who may have killed others and even served her lover's remains at a barbecue. Sean, why do you believe she is now linked to about nine other murders at the minimum? I mean, it's frightening, Nancy. It's beyond frightening that this is the case because, as you said, as someone else just pointed out, it would make her a serial killer. But she's making these claims.

So we just have to see if this is the case. I mean, you've got brilliant investigators on the case here and how great it is to have them on the call today. But, I mean, this will lead us to the determination if this is the case. I mean, it takes my breath away, to be honest. You know, Sean, another fatality in this case was what happened to Chief Laura Frizzo. Because according to the city manager, she was, quote, bullheaded in her investigation style and ended up choosing between her job as police chief and catching a killer. Listen to this.

My name is Laura Frizzo. I used to be the police chief here in Iron River, but I had to make a choice. I could either remain the chief or I could catch a killer. Police in Iron River are asking for help. If you know anything about his whereabouts, you're asked to contact the police department.

He's gone. I had no doubt in my mind something terrible's happened. It's not a missing person case. This is a murder. You're telling me that's blood, right? We got a positive reaction. Kelly, why? She was the mastermind behind it all.

She doesn't have feeling. She doesn't it all. She doesn't have feeling. She doesn't feel sadness. She doesn't feel remorse. I wasn't going to give up. Be nice. You know that's not in my DNA. Sean Walsh, DailyMail.com. Did you hear that?

Nancy, if something was to happen to a member of my family, and God, I pray to God that it never does, I would want Chief Frizzo on the case. Chief Frizzo is one of those dedicated police chiefs that you want in your corner. And I think what happened to her was a travesty. And I think that any police department in this country or around the world would be lucky to have someone like Chief Frizzo running their department. With me is Chief Frizzo along with Joe Scott Morgan and Dr. Brian Russell. Laura Frizzo, it hurts me that, you know, not just you, but very often when women stick to their guns, they're, quote, bullheaded or a bitch.

You ended up being relieved of your duties just as, just as Kelly Cochran admits to having other, quote, friends buried in Indiana, Michigan, Tennessee, and Minnesota. Looks like you weren't bullheaded. You were right, Chief Rizzo. Yeah, I mean, there is a lot to that other part of life for me that it's obviously been killing me because I am very, I tend to be very outspoken, honest, forthcoming. But unfortunately, I, you know, I'm going to have to discuss that at a later date. And there's a lot to be said about it. It's, it's, it's killing me that I can't

discuss it. And, but it is actually in, it's in litigation. I understand. I understand. And that's a whole nother tangent, a whole nother side avenue to this case. What happens, what we're talking about now is are there other victims of Kelly Cochran? And Laura Frizzo, you were on the case and closer to the case than anyone. Explain to me why you believe there are so many other victims, maybe past a dozen. Well, again, I mean, I honestly, you know, two to three months into the initial investigation of Chris Reagan's disappearance and going through, you know, documents, phone records and other things. It was very apparent that these people were good at what they did. This couldn't have been a first time for them. And I adamantly believe that there could have been something shortly before they were able to compose themselves, answer questions,

clean up, this is not, there's no way this is the first time for these people. So learning later on, a year later, that there's potentially other victims coming from her own mouth, there's no doubt in my mind that there are other victims. Guys, there's a two-part documentary airing on investigation discovery, and it tells Kelly Cochran's story through the eyes of the Iron River, Michigan police chief, then Laura Frizzo, who was pulled into the case after the lover, Chris Regan, goes missing. I mean, question, Laura Frizzo, what do Regan's family have to say about all this? Well, that's why the opportunity was so good for Kelly Cochran, because, you know, Chris Regan was new to the area in Upper Michigan. He really, he had no family there. He had only been there approximately nine and a half, ten months.

And so he really didn't have, and he was a very private man, so he really didn't have friends. He didn't socialize. So his two boys were young at the time. I mean, they're still young, but they were, you know, early 20s. And they, you know, their parents, their father and mother were divorced, you know, a few years before. So for them, they were just kind of in a state of shock. They didn't know really how to react.

And the first time I met them and saw that look, and I just, I felt so sorry for them thinking, you know, they have no idea how to handle this. They have no idea what direction to go in. And they're very private. They're, you know, every time I would learn a new detail, they are the first ones I would contact. I wanted them to be prepared for what was going to be said or what, you know, and how to avoid it if they didn't want to hear it, you know. But I tried to keep them prepared every step of the way. Isn't it true, Laura, that Cochran's own brother says he believes his sister is a serial killer? I mean, when your own brother says that, that's bad. You know, the first time I met with her brother, I asked him, the first thing I asked him was, you know, how long have you known that your sister is this way? And he said, you mean a sociopath?

That was his response. So they had a good relationship. They did. I mean, he's considerably younger than her. So a lot of his memories are, you know, from when he was a young boy. But, you know, he, for whatever reason, knew that, you know, she had the potential to be exactly what she is. It's something that he sensed from a young age. Wow.

So she was that way her whole life? From what his account of things are, yes. Even listening to Kelly have discussions with her mom on the phone. I mean, her family knew that there was something with her forever. I just don't think they realized, of course, who would, what her potential was. It's a showdown between good and evil. Serial killer Kelly Cochran versus the then Iron City Police Chief Laura Frizzo, and it will all play out in a documentary on investigation discovery and the search for her other victims

goes on. Take a listen to what Hobart, Indiana police detective Jeremy Ogden says. I have two cases that I've asked her about. I have nothing else that I can provide on those situations, but you never know one day. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. Did you know a recent law can leave your personal data exposed online for anybody to find? If you've turned on the news lately, you know the internet has created a dangerous new world. It's time you take back the power by using a new website called

Truthfinder. Have you been issued a speeding ticket? Received a lien from the IRS? Did you forget about an embarrassing social media profile? That info may already be online. Truthfinder can help you find it. Truthfinder searches millions of public records, assembling the data together in one report. Members get unlimited searches, so you can also look up those close to you and make sure they're not hiding something. Visit truthfinder.com slash Nancy. Enter your own name. Get started. This is an iHeart Podcast.