Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Dead wife's FitBit says hubby's lying; 'Munchhausen' mom update & kids tortured at daycare

Episode Date: December 20, 2017

A FitBit bracelet on Connie Dabate's wrist told a story that landed her husband in jail on a murder charge. Nancy Grace updates the case against Richard Dabate, who told investigators a masked intruder tied him up and fatally shot his wife. Forensic psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober, forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, lawyer and child advocate Ashley Willcott, and reporter Ninette Sosa join Nancy. Reporter John Lemley updates the case of a mom who allegedly faked her son's illnesses for years which resulted in 13 surgeries and 320 hospital and pediatric center visits. Grace & experts also look at a daycare worker who allegedly burned 5 kids with a hot glue gun and then laughed.  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Connecticut suburb. Was Connie the victim of a home invasion as her husband Rick claims? Or was she collateral damage in a love triangle? A security alarm went off. State police rushed inside and that's when they found Connie DeBate in the basement, dead from multiple gunshot wounds. They find Rick tied to a folding metal chair, moaning, telling cops, quote, they're still in the house. Connie's husband Rick is arrested. DeBate is charged with murder, tampering with evidence, and making a false statement. Could the alleged motive be found? In the revelation of a now-admitted affair between Debate and an old high school friend, he says he impregnated. A marriage marked by secrets and lies.

What we know right now is that Connie DeBate was found dead in her home. Her husband, Richard, claims that a masked intruder, here we go with the masked intruder, breaks into their upscale Connecticut home. And let's see, how does he say this? He ties him Richard debate to a chair. P.S. It was a folding chair. And when cops got there, he had one arm and one leg tied to it. Okay. Uh, but for some reason they didn't tie the wife to a chair. They decided to chase her through the home and murder her. Now, this is the problem. Richard, the husband, calls the cops and tells them everything that happened.

And then cops get there. They find the wife brutally murdered. No forced entry. No burglary alarm goes off. I don't think anything was taken. I guess they just broke in and committed murder and left. You know, forget about the TV, the VCR, and the jewelry and the money. Just, you know, okay, that didn't work out, so they left.

And they left a witness alive. Oh, yes, I forgot one important fact. Nanette Sosa joining me. He claimed the masked intruder sounded a lot like Vin Diesel. So I'd like to find out where Vin Diesel was at this time. But here's the problem. The Fitbit. I'm Nancy Grace.

This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with me. Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist and M.D. Ashley Wilcott, lawyer and well-known child advocate. Joseph Scott Morgan, forensic expert and professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. Nanette Sosa, crime stories investigative reporter joining us. Nanette, what does a Fitbit have to do with Richard Debate's story to cops? Well, the Fitbit, and it's actually referred to in some places as the Fitbit murder,

the fact is that it shows that she was active at the house, but it was one hour after he said the alarm was stripped. Whoopsie. So how would that be possible? I just hate when that happens. Ashley Wilcott, his whole timeline is blown. So the cops show up, and he goes, yeah, yeah, they murdered her like two hours ago. And I've been tied to this chair all this time and I just got loose and called you.

And then they find her Fitbit. I don't know how she did it. I don't know how Connie did it. But after she was brutally murdered, she walked around the house for about an hour and a half logging like, what, three or four thousand steps? How does that work? Right, and this is one of the first times you hear about publicly using a Fitbit by criminal investigators. What a great tool. This has solved the murder mystery, but it did in this case. Pretty good investigation here, and i just think he's an idiot let's be honest not only is he a murderer he's an idiot when you look at his story

it doesn't make sense late late one night in november uh connie debate was texting her husband a photo of herself and some sexy lingerie so obviously she had no idea that anything may be wrong within the marriage but one day before that back to nanette so so crime stories investigative reporter one day before the sexy lingerie photo she sends to her husband her husband richard debate was texting somebody else who the girlfriend nancy he has a girlfriend she's 10 weeks pregnant hold on wait a minute wait a minute Nanette Nanette I know that you're used to just rattling off the information and knowing every detail but I gotta I gotta take this in for a moment Dr. Daniel Bober with me I think I need to shrink I'm pretty sure I just heard Nanette Sosa say as his wife is sending him photos of herself in sexy lingerie.

He's texting his 10-week pregnant girlfriend. Dr. Bober, help me out. Do I hear motive, Nancy? This guy really is an idiot. His story has more holes than Swiss cheese from the first moment. And between the Fitbit, it seems like he's all done. 10-week pregnant girlfriend. All right.

Nanette Sosa, this girlfriend, apparently somebody he's known since childhood? Yes. According to Richard, they had gone to high school together. He told investigators, well, he gives investigators a couple of versions of the story first and one part he says that he and his wife Connie had an untraditional type of marriage and that Connie was okay with this and that they planned to co-parent and that there was cheating on both sides so there's that part Dr. Daniel Bober hold on hold. Hold it, Nanette. I got to go back to our shrink on this. Dr. Bober, why is it always, have you noticed a trend?

Now, this is just anecdotal on my part. I haven't done a statistical study, but why is it always the man who is standing over the dead wife's body going, oh, yeah, she was fine with me dating other people. We had an arrangement. We had an open marriage. Why isn't the woman We had an arrangement. We had an open marriage. Why isn't the woman ever saying, yeah, we had an open marriage? Why isn't always the man bober? It just seems to work out better for men that way, Nancy.

I'm not really sure why, but it seems like whenever they make that assertion, the only person that can refute that is dead. I'm so glad you didn't even bother to put up a fight with me on that one. Ashley Wilcott with me, renowned lawyer and child advocate. Ashley, an open marriage? No. Bull. He's just full of crap. I mean, he's just saying what he thinks he can say to get away with it.

Because, no, I cannot imagine she said, oh, yeah, that's great. And the other thing is she knew something was amiss with the marriage. I stand by, and I've always said, if any spouse, male or female has gut feelings or writes, um, things down about reasons to divorce my spouse, you have some sense that something's amiss, even if you don't know what it is. Nanette Sosa, I so rudely interrupted you, but I had to just isolate the fact that the husband, when his girlfriend pops up 10 weeks pregnant, says to cops, oh, we had an open marriage. She was fine with it. Nanette, what were you about to say? Well, there was that one version, and then the other version is where they have text, police sorts of text about him to the Nanette Sosa. A slow-moving divorce. That's his words, Richard DeBate's words, not mine.

A slow-moving divorce so as not to affect the children. Yeah, let's just rip the Band-Aid off very slowly to just drag out the pain. To Joe Scott Morgan, Connie DeBate was shot dead in the Ellington home with a.357 Magnum. What kind of bullet is that, Joe Scott Morgan? A very large bullet, Nancy. It's fired from a revolver, which is a weapon with a cylinder, and it's a very ominous looking handgun when you see one of these things compared to say like something an old-fashioned 38 special you know even more significant though i think than the size of the bullet which i was interested in that the killer would inflict so much pain on the victim is the fact that we now know joe scott morgan this 357 magnum was when her purchase her husband had purchased just a month or so before the shooting this is she's murdered

with her husband's own gun yeah and there's tie back to that you can place this weapon in his hand at the time of purchase and what's really kind of compelling about this, Nancy, is the fact that this woman didn't want guns in the house. She didn't feel comfortable around them, but yet he purchased not a small weapon, but one of the largest weapons you can purchase over the counter at a gun store where you walk in and say, yeah, I don't want a small one. I want to get the.357 Magnum. To Dr. Daniel Bober joining me, forensic psychiatrist and medical doctor, the husband, Richard DeBate, claims that he was subdued. Okay, brace yourself.

DeBate tells police he struggled with the masked intruder, but that the intruder subdued him by, quote, applying pressure to DeBate's wrists. What does that mean? Pressure on your wrist? I mean, he didn't even have a bruise, Bober. Nothing.

He didn't even get roughed up. Nothing. Nancy, it's just, it's just complete nonsense. I mean, he really, he really should have thought it through better if he was going to come up with a story. There's just too many holes here. Well, how can you subdue?

What does it mean to put pressure on your wrists? I guess he's trying to say that he was trying to immobilize him by putting pressure on the wrists so that she couldn't move her hands. Debate says the intruder put pressure on his the husband's wrists to subdue him.

Now, how did he get Debate's gun? It doesn't fit. It doesn't make any sense. Again, as we have learned, Connie did not like guns, did not want them in the home, and there was no indications in their emails or text. She had any idea her husband was having an affair or had gotten another woman pregnant. Now, friends agree with that. The friends don't want to be quoted because they are afraid.

Why are they afraid? They say because Richard DeBate was released from prison on bond. All right. How did that happen? He was released on bond and is walking free. And during that time, Ashley Wilcott, he has gone into the insurance accounts and bank accounts and drained nearly $80,000 out of the accounts. I mean, does it never end? And I don't know how he got out on bond or why a judge would set a bond, frankly, that he could get out on because from all accounts, the evidence is there. He was in jail. I don't even understand how he's out. And

now for friends to say, hey, we're fearful, right? We don't want to quote him because we're fearful and he's been released from prison. Boy, that just adds fuel to the fire of why he doesn't want to quote him because we're fearful and he's been released from prison boy that just adds fuel to the fire of why he doesn't need to be out we also know that he had a secret credit card has charged about twelve hundred dollars at a strip club was using it for flowers for his girlfriend and hotel rooms this is during his wife's life the focus right now is the legal issue of the Fitbit. As Danette Sosa told us, this has been called the Fitbit murder case. I think, Ashley, it's going to be like every other test in court. Like the first time they used fingerprints, somebody said, wow, I don't have much faith in this. Or the first time you used DNA or fiber or hair analysis. You have to undergo a test of reliability and prove that

in court. So how are we going to get, I mean, I see it being the way of, for instance, Siri and Alexa and OnStar Fitbit. We surround ourselves with technology. We rely on it. And now, you know, you live by the sword, you die by the sword. How are they going to get the Fitbit evidence in that his story is a lie? It's going to be like a cell phone record, in my opinion. It's an electronic footprint or record that shows exactly where the steps were and when they were taken. And so I think it's going to be a series of questions that an attorney will use to lay the foundation to do exactly what you

said, which is to show it's reliable electronically. This is the footprint. This is the record. And it's like any other record that we all have to introduce in court to lay the foundation and make it admissible. It's probably going to be challenged because it's new. But like you said, once you get that certain list of questions to lay the proper foundation, I suspect it's going. But like you said, once you get that certain list of questions to lay the proper foundation, I suspect it's going to be admitted, just like a cell phone record might. You know what's so sad? In addition, of course, her death, and they've got little children. Even with his acting out and his bad behavior and cheating, which she didn't know about the cheating, it wasn't on her list. She was still trying to make their marriage work, just doing

anything to hold her family together. And now mommy, Connie DeBate, has been murdered. Alan Duke joining me with me from LA. Now, a police spokeswoman explained the Fitbit. What did she say, Alan? Well, she explains how detectives, when they realized that she was wearing it, they accessed the data and it is what allowed them to nail down the timeline of when she actually was killed. Let's listen to it. So once that movement stops, the Fitbit stops. Detectives were able to determine the time that Connie unfortunately stopped moving. Guys, I want to thank all of you for being with us,

not just our awesome guests, Dr. Daniel Bober, Ashley Wilcott, Joe Scott Morgan, and Annette Sosa, but to you for joining us. I also want to thank our partner making our program possible, and it is Link AKC. If you're like me, you don't want to leave your pet out of all the fun this Christmas. And here's this year's quote must have gift for dogs and their owners. It's the Link AKC smart collar. It's backed by the American Kennel Club. It's a GPS locator, a fitness activity tracker, and it's all controlled through your smartphone. It even has an

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akc risk-free 90 days it's the perfect gift for you and your dog and right 30% off and free shipping on your order if you use code Nancy, N-A-N-C-Y at linkakc.com. Linkakc, alpha, kappa, C as in cat. Linkakc.com, code Nancy for 30% off and free shipping. Linkakc.com, code Nancy. Thank you for being our partner today. As soon as he was born, he started having major illnesses. And over just a few years, this little boy had 13 major surgeries. His life in jeopardy over and over and over with fatal, deadly blood infections.

After one port and one pic after the next, one catheter after the next into major arteries, it would somehow become infected and sepsis would take over his little body, the pain, the seizures, the operations, the surgeries, this poor child endured. But now he's totally cured. Is it true what police say that mommy had Varen von Munchhausen by proxy and would make her child sick for years on end, watching him suffer, watching him have seizures from the pain, going to the brink of death and back over and over again. Because if it's true, she's got a one way ticket ticket to hell, and she's sitting at Satan's right hand for dinner. That's what I've got to say. John Limley with me, Crime Stories contributing reporter. Please tell me this isn't true, that somehow I've gotten the facts wrong,

John. It seems to all be true, and even before the birth of their son, Nancy, Ryan Crawford suspected that something was wrong with the boy's mother. A pregnant Kayleen Bowen Wright would call Crawford in the middle of the night from random hospitals reporting that she had been admitted for various reasons. Once she even claimed she had a fever of 110 degrees for seven consecutive days. Crawford began to wonder. Can you even have a fever of 110? Joe Scott Morgan, can you have a fever of 110? Wait a minute. Sorry, Joe Scott, not to emasculate you, but Dr. Daniel Bober, you're the MD.

Can you even have a temperature of 110? It's possible, but you would be dead pretty quickly if that happened. Okay, so there's Bober bober as usual saying yes but maybe not okay thanks bober all right back to you limley 110 okay go ahead you're right even though this story is over the top it was nothing compared to the stories that crawford says bowen wright would tell after the premature birth of their son christopher who was born after 33 weeks wait did you say 33 weeks 33 weeks 33 actually wilcott i'm going to go to you on this one uh actually the twins were born really prematurely they were 31 weeks by one day 31 31 and lived in the uh nicu neonatal intensive

care unit and i was an intensive care unit for I don't even know how long. It's all a big blur to me. So 33 weeks, I'm like, hey, that's not bad. Am I wrong, Ash? I don't disagree with you. That's not bad. And from all accounts and the things that I've seen reported, there were no major premature medical conditions that she had to face with her particular child documented by the hospital. Okay, Limley, hit me. What happened? Well, despite that, between 2009 and 2016,

just last year, medical records show that Christopher was seen, as you've mentioned, 323 times at hospitals, pediatric centers around Dallas and Houston, and underwent 13 major surgeries, all of this according to Child Protective Services. Throughout his life, Christopher has been placed full-time on oxygen, at times using a wheelchair. He's endured invasive procedures, surgeries, including being fitted with a feeding tube that fed directly into his small intestine. And that's what led to multiple life-threatening blood infections. Okay, hold on. I got to go to Dr. Bober on something. Dr. Daniel Bober with me. Hold on, Lindley. With me, Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist. And of course, you've got to be a medical doctor and then go on to get your specialty in psychiatry.

Ashley Wilcott is a very well-known lawyer and child advocate. Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. John Limley, Crime Stories contributing reporter, and Annette Sosa, Crime Stories contributing reporter as well. Hold on, I got so carried away with introducing you. What was I about to say? Oh, yes, ah, Dr. Bober, my sister, who I love deeply, husband has MS, he's had MS for many, many, many years since the late 80s. And he's been in wheelchair bound for a while, a long time. And, you know, Christopher Reeves, Dr. Bober, also was paralyzed, and he would get, as they euphemistically call them, pressure points. That's simply a bed sore. That's what that is.

And I, when I first heard that, I thought, oh, they weren't paying attention to Superman. They weren't moving him. They weren't taking care of them. Damn them to hell. Well, I found out when you are in a bed in a wheelchair for 15, 20 years. No matter how much you get moved, you're going to get a bed sore or a pressure point, which turns into an infection. I found out by researching it when my brother-in-law got sick. And my sister, I got to tell you, she works full time. She's a college professor.

She heads her department. She's raised two incredible, incredible children, smart off the charts. And she's taking care of her husband devotedly. She got one of those mattresses, Dr. Bober, that blows up and then unblows up to keep you, you know, moving. She wakes up in the morning and bathes him and dresses him and takes care of him. I mean, I don't, she's always been an inspiration to me and she takes so much care of him. But there have been times when, um, through a shot or a catheter or something, Dr. Bober, you get a raging sepsis infection. And it can kill you, Dr. Bober. How did this little boy get that?

Nancy, actually what you were talking about is what they're called venous stasis ulcers. And they result from lack of circulation and immobility. But in this particular case, you know, I was saying to Alan that doctors do not communicate. So the way that people usually pick it up, surprisingly, is by the insurance company, by the claims that are filed. Because as we know, when you have a loved one who has multiple specialists on the case, very often these doctors do not talk to each other. So I'm saying I'm saying, how do you from a catheter or a an IV at the hospital get sepsis? How does that happen? Oh, because, for example, lack of hand washing, lack of sterile technique. There's the hospital is filled with bacteria, many of them resistant to antibiotics.

And this can happen in the home environment, too so as a result the catheter becomes colonized with bacteria and then this causes a septic infection well typically when my brother-in-law has had infections it's always after going to the doctor or the hospital so john limley this mom was inducing according to police so many illnesses 13 major surgeries on a tot boy major surgeries and she would hospital shop, wouldn't she, Limley? Like when one hospital would say, I think we should take him off the feeding tube. She'd leave the hospital and go to a different hospital. Oh, sure. She was darting from hospital to pediatric care center to hospital. At one point, she even tried to get him on the lung transplant list and had previously had him in hospice care. This is according to court

documents. Hospice care. Hospice care. As if she was saying, you know, his life was coming to an end. It was all a lie, Ashley. I mean, Ash, remember last year when I stupidly jumped off the top of a five-foot fence like I was Supergirl and tore my ACL and my whatever is down there and had that surgery. Oh, the drama. And you know, it's just like, every time there's a surgery of some sort, there's like high drama. This little boy has had 13 major surgeries. 13! You know, this does, I don't even know where to start. Let me, right. Right. And so one of the things to keep in mind with individuals who engage in this abuse of children, Munchausen by proxy, or they're also now calling it factitious, excuse me, let's see. Factitious

disorder imposed on another. Yes. And then the caregiver fabricated illness in a child, they either exaggerate symptoms that a child has, or even worse, they completely make up symptoms. And one of the things, Nancy, to remember with this is so many doctors rely, think about when you go to the doctor and when that happened to your foot, what did you do? When you went to the doctor, you said, this is what happened. This is how I hurt myself. This is how I'm feeling. Obviously, a broken bone you can see, but if you're nauseous or not, that's self-reported. That's not anything the doctor can see. And so here you have this mother who is self-reported and made, you know, what up all over the map to do this to her child. It is a form of child abuse. Let's be clear.

Well, here's another thing to Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University. It's one thing, it's bad enough when we keep seeing these cases where parents neglect the child and they're in feces and they've got diaper rash all over their body and they're malnutritioned. And it's just, I want to just go in and kill, kill the parents. I want to. That's where they're just totally drunk or high or just don't care. In this case, cops are saying from the time this child was born, the mom was making sure the baby was infected, having surgeries, going into seizures, making up complaints, actually making the child sick on a feeding tube, on a catheter. I mean, Joe Scott, for people that don't know how a catheter works, could you explain it? Yeah, it works as a delivery system where it's placed into the body.

And as Dr. Bober had stated, you're talking about taking a foreign object, though it is technically a medical device, and it's rife with infection. So just imagine this. You mentioned how many times this child has been treated. And we're not talking about treating a kid for running. Joe Scott. Yes, ma'am. Joe Scott. Uh-uh.

N-O. Why can't men get to the point? I said, how does a catheter work? A catheter goes up your penis. This mom had a catheter go up her child's penis over and over and over. You think that felt good? No, it didn't feel good. The child had a feeding tube for Pete's sake. How does a feeding tube work, Joe Scott? Tell me. Don't make me Q&A with myself. The feeding tube, very simply, Nancy, is placed into the small intestine.

And in order to get. How? How? It goes through your stomach. They cut a hole in you and stick a feeding tube into your intestine. You have to have your body cut open. I'm looking at, you know, Joe Scott, I want you to take a few moments and consider your answers. You're starting to sound like some highbrow intellectual.

And I don't even know what you're saying. But I do know a feeding tube has to go through a cut in your stomach into your intestine and a catheter goes into your penis or other. It's painful. That's what I'm trying to say. Am I wrong? I'm just a JD. I'm not an MD. Am I wrong, Joe Scott? You're absolutely right, Nancy.

You're absolutely right. I mean, look at this boy. I mean, Ash. Ashley Wilcott. I'm looking at him. Jackie, look at this boy. I mean, Ash. Ashley Wilcott, child advocate. I'm looking at him. Jackie, look at him. Look at the little face. He's in a wheelchair.

He's got a feeding tube. He's adorable. He's got oxygen going into his mouth. He's got all sorts of bags on a wheelchair. Oh. He's got something on his arm, too. Look, Nancy. It's like it's broken.

I mean, it goes on and on in one picture. And he's bald something on his arm, too. Look, Nancy, it's like it's broken or I mean, it's it goes on and on. And he's bald. His little face is adorable. His head. I mean, because we know there was nothing wrong with him. John Limley. How long has this gone on? Thirteen surgeries, seizures.

The child legitimately went into real seizures from pain. Seven years, Seven years long. And during this entire time, Christopher is undergoing ordeal after ordeal. His biological father is trying to convince Dallas County family court judges that his son was not sick in the beginning. Of course, he may be now, but they believed that the mother, who would eventually claim that their son was dying, initially from a rare genetic disorder and later from cancer. Crawford said a Dallas County judge even blocked him in late 2012 from visiting his son. This is the biological father that's trying to intervene and help.

In the end, it would take Dallas hospital staff finally sounding the alarm. After seven years. But I can't blame just them because she was hospital shopping, so you can't blame any one hospital because as soon as she didn't like what one said, she'd go to another one and then circle back later. What about this? Isn't it true, Joe Scott Morgan, you're the forensics expert, that at one point she had the child in hospice care for pain management and mommy signed a quote, do not resuscitate for her little boy when he was just five years old. Was mommy planning to kill him?

Joe Scott, a do not resuscitate, what is that? It means that no, and I mean absolutely no, heroic measures can be taken to resuscitate him in any way. And after that means bring back from life, if he's gone into, I mean, bring back to life. He's gone into cardiac arrest. Let's keep in mind, she's essentially weaponized medical treatment here where she shopped him around so much. You can imagine how worn out his little body is by this point. He's subject to all of these various infections, what sometimes are called nosocomial infections that you get in institutions because everybody's hospitals. Many times are some of the filthiest places on the face of the planet. I mean, all those sick germs i remember dr daniel bober psychiatrist and md when my dad had his very first coronary thrombosis he was taken to specialists in in birmingham at the university

hospital university of alabama hospital and a i think it was a uh oh gosh it was an infection that spread from room to room to room and there were multiple deaths on his floor at that time and I you know am just thank God he got through that and I had the time with him that I did have but it's not that they don't clean the hospitals is that you know there's all these sick germs floating around. Let me ask you this, Dr. Bober, the child was in hospice for pain, but then Bowen Wright would not cooperate with the eight-week plan there aimed at helping him live without feeding tubes, okay? And she lied and said she lied to hospice saying her insurance denied the treatment so she could get him out so they wouldn't get him well but then right after that he was admitted to the ICU for a third life-threatening blood infection related to a central line

catheter. Dr. Bober what is a central line catheter? Nancy, a central line catheter is something that goes into the internal jugular vein. It delivers fluids, blood, medicine directly into the circulation, and it's a perfect place for an infection to form if it's done either in a hospital or with someone who's not using proper sterile technique. It can cause a nasty infection, which can be life-threatening if it is the source of infection. Well, it goes on from there, John Limley. When she did not comply with medical recommendations from the hospital, she took the boy out and took him to Texas Children's Hospital in Houston,

refusing to provide medical records from previous care at the Children's Health Medical Center in Dallas. And she started this cycle of testing the boy all over again. More pricks, more ports in his body, more catheters, more surgeries, more feeding bags. I mean, Ashley, she is diabolical in her evil. If these claims are true to sit by and act like the loving mother when you're torturing your child. It's torture again. It is clear medical child abuse. End of story. The other thing I just want to just want to point out as well, do you know in some of the reports, it states that when this little boy was an infant, some of the staff at a hospital observed

her feeding him a little bit of a bottle, pouring all the milk out, and then lying to doctors and saying, oh, he drank this whole bottle. And so already when this was a little infant, she was doing things to purposely create all of these medical issues that didn't exist. In fact, detectives had added just in the past few days that these records show that Bowen Wright's mother actually helped her dump those contents from Christopher's bottles. Why, though? I don't understand why. Dr. Daniel Bober, as far as I'm concerned, she can rot in hell, the whole kit and caboodle, as long as the boy gets free.

But what causes this? What is Munchausen? It's a very rare disorder, Nancy, and as your other guest stated, it's now called factitious disorder imposed on another. Wait a minute. It's what? Factitious? Factitious disorder imposed on another. Okay, you know what? I actually think Baron von Munchausen by proxy is actually easier than whatever it is you just said. Ashley Wilcott and Joe Scott Morgan can have your legal, technical, medical doctor term conversation,

but not right here on Series 6 and 132. Please speak regular people talk, Dr. Daniel Bober. So, Nancy, essentially the difference between this disorder and malingering is with malingering, there is secondary gain. With this disorder, the illnessering is with malingering, there is secondary gain. With this disorder, the illness role is the secondary gain. In other words, people do it simply to get attention. And usually they themselves, no surprise, have a history of mental illness, sometimes a history of abuse, sometimes have a history of absent parent figures. And so there are people that are very defective, deficient and inadequate, and they use the illness of their

child to fill this void. It's a severe, severe mental illness, obviously, with victims. Well, can you tell me, John Limley, is she in jail? Just, that's a yes, no. That's all I want to know. She is being held. Bond has been reduced. Still no word on whether she, family members have been able to raise that bond. Ashley Wilcott, I think maybe we should let her have a reduced bond under the condition that she has to wear a catheter for the next seven or eight years. What about that? Yeah, let her enjoy that. A catheter, a catheter and oxygen and a broken arm. And yeah, right. Awful. You know, Nancy, can I just add one of the things give people do where they're where it's owed? And that is it's nice to see this is in a criminal context because usually you see Munchausen's in the

context of custody cases. So good for them for charging this woman. Take a listen to what dad says. It makes me feel as if the system wants to believe the mother all the time. Were you worried that she may kill him? I figured that one day that that would be the end cause. Knowing that your son is being injured, but you can't do anything about it. It's the worst pain. Christopher's father says his son now appears to be physically healthy. I am so sorry that I wasn't able to be there to stop the harm that has been done unto you. This little boy almost passed away three different times due to infections from 13 different surgeries. He has a very long road ahead of him. But somehow, I find some degree of peace in knowing mommy is in jail. And may she stay there. That's one of my Christmas wishes.

I want to pause and thank our partners making today's program possible. And one of our partners that I just love is Super Beats. When my son first heard I was involved with Super Beats, he went, Mom, those are too costly. They're $400. He thought I was talking about this really expensive set of earphones. He's all about earphones. Super Beats, B-E-A-T-S. I'm like, no, my love. No. Super Beats, B-E-E-T-S. You know, speaking of the twins, wouldn't it be great to have all the energy you wanted all day long so I could, you know, run with them all day? But fatigue gets in the way even for everyday activities. I mean, if you're up at 5.30 every morning like I am by about four o'clock, you're dragging.

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at your health food store. No. 800-516-0683 or go to nancysbeats.com today. In fact, I need to drink about a gallon right now because I need energy. You know, I always beat myself up and I'm going to go back to you, Ashley Wilcott, because you're a mom, and I think you went through this as well. When I first took the children to play school, it was two days a week, and it was three hours at a time, and they would scream and cry, and I would to fit. I was so tired from being up all night with them. One at 1230, one at 130, 330 and 530 would be up. I was actually seeing stars. It's kind of all a big blur, but I would beat myself up for taking them to play school twice a week. Okay. And, um, that was bad enough. But now I'm reading a daycare worker accused of burning at least five tots with a hot glue gun. I mean, am I reading this correctly?

I'm reading one of my favorite papers, the New York Post, which I mean, there's really nothing like it. But yeah, it's five tots, Ashley, with a hot glue gun. That's right. She did. And, you know, this is every mother's challenge what to do and where to put your kids in daycare, what services to use. Can you imagine that? And my question is, how five? How did someone not see her? And they're actually two people charged. So how did how, though, did they get away with five? It's bad enough one. But you would hope and think that after she abused one and started burning with a hot glue gun, somebody would have seen it, reported it, done something. I can't understand this day and age. The hot glue gun.

I mean, let me get the facts. John Limley with us, investigative reporter for Crime Stories and CrimeOnline.com. John, start at the beginning. This woman, the daycare worker is, what, 32? What do we know? This story continues to unfold, Nancy, in the Logan Square community of northwest Chicago. And, yes, a 32-year-old woman has been arrested for burning several toddlers with a hot glue gun at a daycare center. Her name is Lysandra Cosme.

She's been charged with five felony counts of aggravated battery to a child. This is related to a December 1st incident at Children's Learning Place. Police sources say videos show Cosme burning five two-year-olds with a hot glue gun. According to police, Lysandra brought the hot glue gun from home to work on a Christmas project. She's ordered, held without bail at a bond hearing at the Layton Criminal Courthouse, and we're still getting details about this story. Now, we also hear that the sister insists, the sister of Cosme, says that she is innocent and she, quote, made a mistake.

You know what? Under the law, Ashley Wolcott, quote, made a mistake. You know what? Under the law, Ashley Wilcott, mistake is not a defense. It is not. And so she, A, I can't believe she made a mistake, quote, unquote. And B, it's not a defense. She's still guilty of the crimes. Well, also, I could see mistake one time. Say if you're helping a child and the glue gun touches their hand,

that's a horrible mistake you know Lucy is obsessed with all things craft anything I don't care what it is Dr. Daniel Bober she has a glue gun and I gave it to her so far she hasn't burned herself or anybody else with it although she's ruined a lot of my glasses by trying to glue gun plastic appliques and just all sorts of weird stuff. The other day she got a plastic spoons, broke them in half and would take the spoony part of it and wanted to glue gun them all over the glasses to make the glasses look like a flower. Okay. So of course the end falls off and I'm stuck with these sharp knobby glue gunned on plastic appliques it's just anyway my point is Dr. Daniel Bober glue guns what can you do to somebody with a hot glue gun

and she brought it from home she says for a project well Nancy the difference in what you're talking about is obviously Lucy's doing it under your supervision but it seems that this woman was using it uh to discipline the children, which is very sick in and of itself, but it can cause severe burns and obviously severe pain for the child that it's being applied to. How hot do they get? To Joe Scott Morgan, a forensics expert, how hot does a glue gun get and what kind of burn does that create?

It can create upwards of a second-degree burn, Nancy. These things will burn roughly at about 240 degrees Fahrenheit. Oh, my stars. That's like an iron. Yeah, it absolutely is. You're talking about taking a solid stick of glue, and a lot of people in the audience will understand this because they use them, and liquefying it. And it's a horrible, nasty, nasty, nasty kind of thing. We can get second degree burns roughly at exposures of over 109 degrees. If she burned these kids with this thing

when it was going full blast, it could be upwards of 248 degrees Fahrenheit. And listen to this. Correct me if I'm wrong, John Limley, because you know the facts so much better. There's video. Of course, there's video. And the prosecutor said in court, she was spotted laughing with another co-worker during the incident. And it was captured on the daycare surveillance video. So you got a glue gun around 200 degrees and she's burning the children with the glue gun and then laughing. John Limley. Yes, a second Children's Learning Place daycare worker has been arrested and charged with a misdemeanor. And she's the one accused of just standing back idly during the glue gun incident. The prosecutor says in court that both women are seen on video, on surveillance video, laughing during the incident.

Let me understand something right now. John Lindley, what is she charged? What's the charges? The charges right now are aggravated battery to a child, five felony counts. So what you're looking at on aggravated battery, Ash, Ash, you woke up with me. Aggravated assault is when you put someone in fear of serious bodily injury. That's typically like you shoot them or you stab them. Aggravated battery is when you actually lose the use of, say, your finger, your hand, your arm, your eye. Aggravated battery is even

more serious. What is she looking at? Because they're five counts and five kids, obviously looking at a longer sentence. I'm a little surprised she wasn't also charged with child endangerment, but I, you know, I'm glad she's been charged with aggravated battery. She's looking at a good number of years. You know, what's crazy, you know, what else is crazy to Dr. Daniel Bober. If you look at this woman, it's often the case, Nancy, and those are the ones that are more dangerous, sort of the wolf in sheep's clothing. I guess so, because the parents trusted her. Exactly. Do we know if, John Limley, if the burn was from the hot metal or the glue itself? I'd bet the glue that's gotten heated up to about 200 degrees. That seems to be the case. And at one point, parents have mentioned that when they went to pick up their child, she actually went to the trouble of asking if there had been an incident at home

in which there was, you know, a burn or something that was happening, sort of trying to place the blame onto the parents instead of herself trying to get ahead of the game, so to speak. Well, I can see that happening. You know, the thing about glue that makes it even worse is it continues to burn because you can't get it off. I hear where the defense is going. They're trying to say this happened at home.

But the likelihood that five children getting hurt from hot glue at home and manifesting in the video, manifesting the injury all at the same time, plus the video, it's not going to work. Okay, we're on it. I want to pause and thank our partners making today's program possible. 1-800-DENTIST. If you're like everybody else, you are really overindulging over the holiday with sugary treats, you need to call an awesome dentist and schedule an appointment with 1-800-DENTIST.

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at Sirius XM 132. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.