Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - DEADLY "THREE-HOUR-CRUISE"

Episode Date: May 13, 2022

Linda Carman and her son, Nathan, set out on a night fishing trip. They don't return. A week later, Nathan Carman is found in an inflatable life raft, but his mother is nowhere to be found. Now, police say Carman killed his mother and sank the boat intentionally for a $7,000,000 inheritance. Carman is accused of enlarging holes in the boat, "Chicken Pox," to ensure it sank. The boat's insurer National Liability and Fire Insurance Co., asked a court to deny any insurance claim on the boat following an investigation that revealed Nathan compromised it before the accident.  The insurer's report states that in "removing his boat’s trim tabs hours before departing on its final voyage, Carman not only failed to properly seal four thruhull holes he thereby opened at the transom’s waterline, but two recent depositions establish Carman enlarged those four holes.”   This is not the first time Carmen has been eyed for a murder of a family member: He was reportedly named a person of interest in the 2014 shooting death of his wealthy grandfather, John Chakalos. Warrants say that Carman was the last person to see his grandfather alive before the 87-year-old man was found shot to death in his Windsor, Connecticut, home. Nathan reportedly purchased a gun that was the same caliber as the weapon that killed his grandfather, a multimillionaire developer, and declined to let police know this during questioning. He also declined to take a polygraph test. Joining Nancy Grace Today: Andrew Norris - Maritime Attorney and Consultant, Tradewind Maritime Services Inc. (Old Mystic, CT), TradewindMaritimeServices.com Former Captain, U.S. Coast Guard, 22 years U.S. Coast Guard Attorney, Qualified Marine Casualty Investigator, Maritime Security and Governance Professor, U.S. Naval War College  Dr. Kathleen M. Heide, Ph.D. - Psychotherapist, Distinguished University Professor, University of South Florida, Department of Criminology, Author: "Understanding Parricide: When Sons and Daughters Kill Parents" and "Why Kids Kill Parents"   Robert Crispin - Private Investigator, “Crispin Special Investigations” CrispinInvestigations.com Dr. Kendall Crowns – Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth), Lecturer: University of Texas and Texas A&M, Affiliated Faculty: University of Texas Medical Branch Bob Audette - Reporter, Brattleboro Reformer (Brattleboro, VT), reformer.com, Twitter: @Bobbleboro   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A mom seemingly goes overboard on a pleasure cruise. What really happened? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. First of all, take a listen to our friends at WPTZ. Around 1130 Tuesday morning, Mayna was getting ready for work and her daughter Alyssa had stopped over for a visit. All of a sudden you heard people get out and they were shouting. That's when they saw multiple vehicles pull into this home on Fort Bridgman Road in Vernon. They snapped this photo. I saw a wrecker here, a ramp truck and then there

was a sheriff's car here and then there was someone in the boat. All the activity happening at the home of Nathan Carman. usually quiet at this house very very quiet neighborhood beautiful homes and this family is essentially rolling in money it's very rare have you ever noticed it Robert Crispin private investigator Crispin special Robert, have you noticed the more money in a neighborhood, the less you see the cop cars? Exactly. Exactly. Now, wait a minute. See, you're the investigator, and I was expecting a little more from you than exactly.

You're basically like what she just said. No. I think crime is just as ubiquitous in wealthy neighborhoods but somehow they managed to keep it quiet exactly you did it again crispin why are you on the panel tell me something tell me something i don't know i'll tell you what nancy the reason you don't see a bunch of police activity in all these expensive neighborhoods is because these people take care of their own problems internally they have their own a lot of people have their own security internal forces their own protection and they address all these internal family issues or any issues with anybody internally so it doesn't get out to the public that's normally

why you don't see a lot of stuff but when it goes down it goes down big yeah let me go to andrew norris his specialty, maritime law. He knows his way around the courtroom. Andrew Norris joining me out of Rhode Island. Andrew, if you go to a regular criminal arraignment calendar, felony court, very rarely do you see a bunch of rich people in there with, let's just say, 13 boys. Because the rich people will send them off to some kind of a rehab school or a therapeutic school, and everybody else is left to go to juvie jail.

Have you ever noticed that? Nancy, there's an expression, something to the effect of money is the root of all evil. Now, Andrew, you and I have had this conversation. It's the love of money is the root of all evil. It is true. It's often at the heart of spectacular cases. So what is happening in this wealthy neighborhood where the neighbors are all looking out their windows and oh dear lord in heaven they see a patrol car take a listen to our friends at inside edition he says he survived seven days lost at sea after a tragic boating accident and his first words on getting home about his mom who is presumed drowned and i just want to thank the public for their prayers and for their continuing prayers for my mother but now a twist. Nathan says he was fishing with his mother when their boats

started taking on water. The boats dropped out from under my feet. When I saw the life raft, I did not see my mom. Have you found her? No, we haven't been able to find her yet. Coast Guard radio responding, no, we haven't been able to find her yet. Now, that is a crew that I really respect, the Coast Guard. You never hear about scandal or problems. They're out there doing their job every single day. And when they say they can't find her, I believe that they've really looked. Joining me in All-Star panel to make sense of what we know right now, first of all, legal expert in maritime law.

He's maritime attorney and consultant with Tradewind Maritime Services, Inc. in Old Mystic. You can find him at TradewindMaritimeServices.com. Andrew Norris joining us. He is a professor at the U.S. Naval War College as well. Dr. Kathleen Heide, psychotherapist and distinguished university professor at University of South Florida, Department of Criminology and author. Robert Crispin joining us, private investigator. You can find him at crispininvestigations.com.

Dr. Kendall Crowns with us. Private investigator, you can find him at crispininvestigations.com. Dr. Kendall Crowns with us, Chief Medical Examiner, Tarrant County, that's Fort Worth, Lecturer, University of Texas, Texas A&M, and Faculty, University of Texas Medical Branch. You know how hard it is to get to be a medical examiner, much less the Chief Medical Examiner? It's not easy. But first, I want to go to a special guest joining us from the Brattleboro Reformer at Reformer.com, Bob Audet. What happened? I'm trying to get my mind around what happened.

How, why was Linda Korman with her son son out on what kind of a vessel was it? It was a fishing boat. It was, you know, not a huge vessel, but it was adequate. Well, first tell me about the vessel. What do we know about the boat? We know it was named the Chicken Pox. Okay, what? Why is it named the Chicken Pox? Why would you name your boat after an ailment? Well, I don't i don't know but he has a new boat and it's called out foxed um but the uh you know she's been out apparently she's been out with him before on fishing trips not unusual so that it's not unusual

the two of them go fishing now um this was september 17 and this happened near Martha's Vineyard, Rhode Island. How cold would it be out on the water on September 17 in Rhode Island? I would think it would be rather cold, and I would think the water temperature, which never really warms up off in New England, was rather cold as well. Jackie, what was the temperature off Block Island? 49 is the high, Nancy. Okay, so let me go to Dr. Kendall Crowns joining us, Chief Medical Examiner, Fort Worth. Dr. Kendall Crowns, if the ambient air outside is 49,

what would you expect the temp of the water to be? Usually when it's cold outside like that, the temperature of the water will also drop as well. So you'll see a fairly cold water matching the outdoor air temperature, if not even colder, especially if it's in a big open ocean area. So at least 49 degrees would be the answer, minus the speculation. And you're saying the water would be typically colder than the air. Correct. Okay. So in the 40s, for a human to go into the water, Dr. Kendall Crowns,

let's just go with 45 degrees. How long would it take for a human to get hypothermia? 45 degrees water, it would probably take several minutes probably on the outside 10 to 15 maybe a half hour at most but you're gonna cool pretty rapidly. So I'm gonna go with 15 to 30 minutes for hypothermia to set in and what is hypothermia? Hypothermia is you're basically your body being shut down by the cold surroundings. It affects your heart rate.

It starts slowing it down, and then that causes you to basically become unconscious and then eventually die. So let me understand. The human body is usually at what, 98.6? Is that right? That's correct. And to get hypothermia, you have to be at what temp? To be officially hypothermic. When you start getting below the 90s, you know, you're starting to really get into that hypothermic range.

Really, the body can't handle much variation in temperature either way. So once you start getting below 90, hypothermia begins to set in and you're saying within 30 minutes you would succumb? Yeah, 15, 30 minutes, even maybe 10. It just depends. Now is that to be hypothermic or to die? I would say to die. You probably start being hypothermic within about five, ten minutes. So in 30 minutes in 40 degree water, you're dead? More than likely, yeah. Have you ever handled an autopsy where someone died of hypothermia? Yeah. Were they in the water or in the air?

Both. I knew you were going to say both. I knew that. How many autopsies have you done? Just toss me a number. Over 8,000 probably. I'm going to quit bragging about my number of jury trials. Okay, that ends today, right now, never again. I can't compare it to his 8,000 autopsies. So, Dr. Kendall Crowns, tell me what happens to the body. I mean, how can you look at a body and know the person died of hypothermia? Well, there's a couple things you can see.

You can see these little dots in the stomach lining. They're called Wyschniewski's ulcers, but they look like little pinpoints. Okay, I need to write that down. Andrea Norris, you probably already know this since your specialty is maritime law, but this is all new to me. What did you just say, Dr. Crowns? You have these little dots in the stomach. They're called Wyschniewski's ulcers.

Wyschniewski's ulcers, okay. Correct. Why do you get ulcers? They're called Wyschniewski's ulcers, but they're kind of like little pinpoint hemorrhages throughout the lining. It's just something that they've seen with hypothermia cases. That and hemorrhage in the pancreas is the other kind of soft findings you can see with hypothermia. But the problem is, is both those findings can be found in other things. Such as?

Diabetes is the main one and so uh what what it is is you kind of use circumstances and then those findings those findings with circumstances equals hypothermia if you don't have those findings and the person found in a cold environment uh again you can go hypothermia if they have no other cause of death i don't like that, doctor. I don't like what you just said because you're making it sound like it's kind of a process of elimination. Well, it kind of is. As to the COD cause of death.

I wish I hadn't heard that, but I've heard it. But Dr. Kendall-Crowns, say you're diabetic. Would you have the Wyschnitzki ulcers in both the pancreas and the stomach or just the pancreas with diabetes? The ulcers are only in the stomach and in both hypothermia and diabetes. But it's very uncommon with diabetes, but it has been found with it. I also believe that chronic alcoholism is another one, but it's only in the stomach. So with diabetes, what you're going to look for is also you can look at the electrolytes or the glucose level that you get from the vitreous taken from the eyeball. Let me refine my question.

Say you find a body, a body that washes up to shore two weeks later. How could you tell if the person died of hypothermia or they drowned? Well, again, you'd look for those findings that we talked about. But the main thing is, you would still, there'd be no way of saying, well, they got hypothermic and then drowned or they drowned without hypothermia. If you find those findings, you know, you'll be like, okay, they were probably hypothermic before they drowned. But anybody that lands in water, you got to consider drowning right away. Listen, this is the kind of discussion that happens in every good trial preparation. You've got to be prepared. For instance, if I had Dr. Kendall Crowns on the stand on direct exam,

I would have to know the answer to all of these detailed questions because if I don't know it, I guarantee you they're going to bring it up on cross-exam and they're going to ambush me because I won't know what's true or not true. And evidence can be twisted to make it appear to be something very different than what it really is. So minutiaia, the details of what we've just heard, which is new ski ulcers that appear in the stomach when someone has hypothermia, that a trial could actually turn on a minute fat like that. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace In this case, we have just heard the son say,

I did not see my mom. Have you found her? And and Coast Guard stating we haven't been able to find her yet. So Bob Audet, they go out quite a bit fishing alone together. But what about these cold temperatures? I don't know for sure. But, you know, the water temperature never really changes, to be honest. So then probably, yes. Guys, we are talking about a mom, Linda Carmen, that goes overboard on a fishing trip. And to my understanding, her body has never been found.

Is that right, Bob? Her body and the boat, neither have been found. Okay, guys, take a listen to this. Carmen was on a fishing trip with his mother, Linda Carmen. The boat allegedly started taking on water and sank. Linda Carmen's body was never found, but her son Nathan was rescued from a life raft by a passing ship. The Coast Guard then brought him back to shore. The boat was never seaworthy, putting the blame on the former owner. Quote, Mr. Carmen was a young 22-year-old kid with more money than experience. He, the former owner of the boat, took advantage of him and sold him the boat. Back to you, Bob Audette. There are claims that the boat was the problem, that the boat began taking on water.

I don't understand how the boat can go down and the boat's never found. Well, there's some discrepancy about where it actually happened. He told folks it happened off of Block Island, but an expert at Woods Hole said that it could have never happened there. And he could have sunk that in two mile deep water somewhere. So why did the experts say this could never have happened off Block Island? So he filed for an insurance claim and it eventually got denied in court. But another merit harm lawyer said that he spoke with folks at Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, which said that if his life raft had deployed at Block Canyon, the life raft would not have drifted for 40 miles southeast but rather would have drifted

in the opposite direction about 40 miles northwest where coast guard would have found him on september 19th because that's where they were looking for him oh i get it to andrew norris joining me maritime expert lawyer and consultant actually professor at u.S. Naval War College, Andrew Norris. Now I get it why one expert said it couldn't happen off Black Island because of the current. The tide would have taken the boat in a different direction. The raft, the rubber raft. Does that make sense to you, Andrew? It certainly does.

So the story would be that the boat sank he somehow got on the life raft was adrift for a number of days and then was recovered so when the coast guard gets a distress call like this or or discovers uh somebody in the water and does a search one of the key things that the Coast Guard does is look for the prevailing currents, the drift patterns, and they actually form a search grid based upon factors like that. So very much the drift, what the water does in the area would be a central component of the Coast Guard search. So let me understand with me expert lawyer Andrew Norris. Andrew, you are so familiar.

You know these waters and this type of investigation like the back of your hand. Is what Nathan Carman saying happened possible? And I'm including the fact that the boat, the chickenpox, was never found. Is it possible? Yes, it's possible. Boats sink and people sometimes are never found or they're found some days later. So is it possible? Yes. There are some issues with this. It got underway at 11.13 p.m. as in almost midnight. Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Bob Audet,

they went out fishing at midnight? And the boat was not seaworthy according to testimony that was presented at his insurance trial. Wait, did they go out fishing at midnight? They did. Okay, Andrew Norris, what else have you learned? And everybody jump in because that's very significant to me. Hold on. Andrew Norris, I've got to speak to a shrink. Dr. Kathleen M. Heide is with me, a renowned psychotherapist joining us,

distinguished university professor, University of South Florida. Dr. Heidi, I'm an outdoors person. We love to camp. We love to sleep under the stars. We love to RV. We love to hike. The whole shebang. But I do not want to go out on night dives once.

Enough to know I did not want to do it again it takes a unique outdoors person to go out at midnight in 49 degree temp and hey Jack we need to look at that temp again I bet it dropped by midnight that night 1 1 a.m. Uh-uh. Dr. Kathleen Heide, I'm having a hard time believing this. Well, people do go out at night. In fact, I boat myself at night, and I've worked for many years with the Coast Guard. So some people go out seriously in terms of, you know, fishing and night expeditions. So it is unusual, particularly in that climate.

And I would absolutely agree that it's going to be cold and the water is going to even make it more cold. Now, my understanding is that this is a way that the mother tried to spend time with her son. It may strike some of us as unusual, but that is apparently on the record as something the two of them did. You know, Dr. Heidi, you just answered all my questions because when my son was a little boy, I would take him. He loved arcades, video games, all that. The ones where you dance on them and where you swing baseballs. We would go for hours. The last thing I want to do, well, nearly the last,

is play video games, but I would do that with him. I've played Mortal Kombat. I've played where you dig tunnels, Minecraft, everything, all sorts of board games, just you name it. And same thing with my daughter. You spoke to my heart just then, Dr. Heidi. I get it. Why mom would go out at night? Okay, enough said. Andrew Norris, what else can you tell me? So the mother had apparently filed a float plan, which shows that

it's very responsible boating type activity. And that float plan indicated that they would return by about noon the other day. So it was intended as about a 12-hour trip, mostly at night into the morning and then returning by noon the next day. Of course, the boat never came back. And further, what the federal prosecutors believe

is that Nathan murdered his mother, then at some later point sank or otherwise disposed of the boat, and then was gotten into life raft himself and was found and rescued. So the theory at least that he murdered his mother intentionally and by gunshot or however, and then disposed of the boat and was later rescued. So that is a suspicion, something that Bob Audette said earlier regarding the insurance company. It's absolutely correct. Take a listen to our friend Jennifer Egan.

She's at WCVB. The insurance company's attorney asked Carmen about his mother. Quote, she didn't scream when the boat fell out from underneath her, to which Carmen replied, I did not hear a scream. Carmen mentioned his mother in his email to the insurance company, writing, quote, I did not see my mom after the boat sank, though I looked around and called out for her while I was in the water and after getting on board the life raft. Carmen was rescued by a passing cargo ship and brought to shore by the Coast Guard. The insurance company hasn't paid Carmen's claim on the chickenpox,

saying alterations he made to the boat before the fishing trip voided the policy. Wow, so many questions. Now, to Bob Audet, what alterations did the son make to the boat? He removed some sort of plug, four plugs actually, and actually made the holes bigger. And then when he repaired them, he didn't do it up to specs that would ensure that the boat wouldn't take on water. So wait a minute, he altered the holes in the bottom of the boat, which would have allowed water to come up into the boat, the boat to take on water, unless the plugs worked accurately.

Is that right? And there's really no understanding why he would even make that sort of alteration to what was before the alteration, the seaworthy boat. How many days had the son been floating in the water? Nathan Carman, how many days had he been floating in the life raft? Nathan had been in the life raft for about a week. And when they rescued him, he definitely looked like he'd been in a life raft for a week. Did he have any provisions on the life raft, food or water? Apparently he had 30 days worth of food and water on the life raft.

Okay. Let me go to our lawyer, Andrew Norris, maritime expert. He had 30 days of food and water supplies on the life raft of that capability aboard and that amount of provisions, that's a sign of responsible boating. What really strikes me as odd about all this, though, is the fact that he was supposedly adrift for six days. He was ultimately recovered on September the 25th. It looks like the Coast Guard even suspended its search for him and for his mother and for the vessel the day before they were rescued. So six days of Coast Guard searching couldn't find him. They're not that far offshore. So it's interesting to me and really struck me

as unusual that it took so long for him to be recovered. Makes you wonder exactly where the boat was. That's another curious aspect of the case to me. You know, Nancy, if I could jump in a little bit about this whole boat situation. Is this you, Crispin? It's Crispin. Go ahead. So, so much of this boat is so important for the modifications that happen to the boat and why this boat went down.

And to understand how a boat actually operates, other than just floating on the water and understanding when people are starting to do modifications there's intentional things that you do are going to sink your boat the the trim tabs were taken off what are trim tabs well trim tabs are the things that are in the back of the boat and you can adjust them by a switch when you're driving as the captain to bring the bow up and down those trim tabs are held on screws. If those screws or one or two of those screws come out, you're going to start to get a leak into your bilge. That's the back of the boat. The second thing is he also took out the bulkhead. What's a bulkhead? A bulkhead goes from starboard to port or left to right, and it's a support beam for that boat. If that is not there, then that boat, when it's underway, is going to start to flex, and it's going to start to let that boat crack.

Also, according to the indictment, it talks about he replaced that bilge pump a bilge pump is a pump that automatically kicks on it's hot wired whether your boat where your boat is on or off and it kicks in and it kicks the water out of the build so your motor can keep going one of his statements are he looked in there and it was filling with water so understanding when a boat goes down they do go down quick i have seen it i've investigated them and i these boats do go down quick but if you're underway or you're fishing you're starting to notice a change in the boat and you're going to start to see things are wrong and then you're going to start to take evasive action for that he admits that he never checked to see if that bilge pump

worked or not his own statement is pointing to this is an intentional act. I don't know why he would remove the bilge pump ever. I'm not a great boater, but I know that much. And let me remind everybody about a previous case we covered of Angelica Griswold, who sent her fiance out on the water in the Hudson River, and then it was later learned that she pulled the plug. That phraseology, that adage, is real. You pull the plug on something, it's like pulling the plug out of the bottom of the boat,

and it fills up with water, and you all go down. Now take a listen to our friends at Inside Edition. The Coast Guard had questions. Look how remarkably fit he appeared after seven days lost at sea. And there's this witness who says Nathan and his mom were not prepared for a fishing trip. I didn't see any fishing poles. I didn't even see him with food. Why would you go on a fishing trip without poles? It's starting to look worse and worse for him.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, for those of you just joining us, a young man and his mom go out on a nighttime cruise, which ends in disaster. Neither the mother nor the ship have ever been found. Listen to this. The case has generated wide interest Carmen's aunts have accused him of murdering his grandfather in 2013 and then killing his mother in an attempt to collect a seven million dollar inheritance and the attorney also asked Carmen why he didn't radio for help when he noticed that the boat was taking on quite a bit of water Carmen said that he had an aversion to

doing so unless he felt he was in real danger. That attorney, though, pointed out that he had called for help one time before. Okay, how does the grandfather fit into this? What happened to the grandfather, Bob Audet? And I'm talking about John Chakalos. Is it Chakalos or Chakalos? Chakalos. What happened to him? Well, three years ago, he was murdered in his bed while he was sleeping, shot apparently with a Sig Sauer rifle in Windsor, Connecticut. How many times was he shot?

At least twice is my understanding. Now, you were just hearing our friends at WCVB. Now take a listen to our friends at Inside Edition. Speaking of the grandfather. Nathan is now facing a firestorm of questions with the revelation that he was a suspect in the shooting death of his 87-year-old grandfather, John Chakalos. Chakalos was well known locally for the elaborate Christmas decorations at his palatial estate in New Hampshire. The last person to see him alive, Nathan Carmen. His missing mom, 54-year-old Linda Carmen, inherited his $40 million estate with her siblings. Here's Stephen Fabian.

Police here in Connecticut, where the grandfather was slain, actually drew up an arrest warrant for Nathan almost three years ago. But the young man was never arrested or charged. This person killed at least once that we know of this person's gotten away with murder and chances are it will happen again okay Andrew Norris that breaks my heart I remember here's just one example when you're in Vander Sloot got away with murdering Natalie Holloway at that time, predicting that he would kill again five years to the day.

He killed Stephanie Tassiano Flores. Here you have Andrew Norris, Andrew Norris, high-profile lawyer joining me out of Rhode Island. He's a professor at U.S. Naval War College. You have the family saying, whoever killed our grandfather is going to kill again. Now you've got the mother dead. Why was he arrested then? An indictment had been drawn up. What went wrong? You know, the DA hasn't really spoken about it much, but I would think

that, you know, there was no murder weapon found. And I think that probably they were worried if they took it to trial, that piece of evidence being missing would derail the whole thing. Well, you know, many cases have been tried without the murder weapon, Robert Crispin. Why would they not go forward with what they had? Because I think it goes even further when they did the search warrant at his house and they found out that he took the GPS out of his truck and he also took the hard drive out of his computer. So we're not going to find any more physical or any more electronic evidence that would have helped us.

Well, to me, that's evidence right there. Why would you take, if somebody told me to go take the GPS out of my minivan, I would have to go look it up on Google to figure out how to do it. What person removes the GPS from their vehicle at the time their grandfather is murdered? He's an heir to multi-millions of dollars.

I mean, Bob Audet, the home where the grandfather lives looks like a government building. It's huge. And tell me about that gigantic Christmas-like display they put on every year. So this was his second home, actually. And it was on Spofford Lake which is a pretty ritzy place in New Hampshire and it recently sold for 3.7 million dollars. It's been on the market since John's death. Yeah he would deck that thing out with tens of thousands of dollars of Christmas lights every year and he would encourage people to come by and look and

donate bags of food to the local food shelter. And that's the grandfather that was murdered in his sleep? Yes. And then the prosecutor chose not to do anything, to just sit back on his thumb, do nothing, and now the mother, the grandfather's daughter. Okay, guys, we're trying to figure out what happened. But I want to go to Dr. Kathleen M. Heide joining us, renowned psychotherapist. Dr. Heide, you actually wrote a book called Understanding Parasite, When Sons and Daughters Kill Parents, and Why Kids Kill Parents. Why do they?

Well, from my research and clinical practice, there really are four ways, and I'll spell them out quickly. You know, some kids kill their parents because of longstanding abuse, and they're basically desperate or they're in fear of their lives, and they want to end the abuse. So that's the severely abused. The second I refer to is the severely mentally ill child or parasite offender. They're individuals who kill because of severe mental illness, usually longstanding and documented. And so that would be something like psychosis typically. A third type are the dangerously antisocial. And these are individuals who kill because of a very selfish reason, oftentimes with their parents that may be longstanding and something sets it off, often fueled by alcohol or drugs. So those are four primary pathways or motivations why individuals, both juveniles or children, adolescents, and adults kill parents.

So it's been narrowed down to those four general reasons. But to murder, unless it's in self-defense or unless you've been a longtime abuse victim, which is, in my mind, much the same, why is the alternative murder? I mean, this guy right here, Nathan Carman, who declares he's innocent, he's a grown man. He's almost 30 years old. Why not just go out and make a living? I mean, take a listen to Grace Feinerman, our cut to WMUR. Listen to this. According to the indictment, Carman got around $550,000 from accounts set up by his grandfather as a result of the murder. Three years later, Carmen's accused of planning a fishing trip with his mother, Linda Carmen, only to kill her after leaving the marina.

The indictment says Carmen reported the boat sank and his mother disappeared at sea. He was rescued off the coast of Martha's Vineyard. In July of 2017, the executor of Carmen's grandfather's estate filed an action in New Hampshire Probate Court, claiming he killed John and Linda. This, trying to prevent Carmen from benefiting from their deaths. Throughout this process, the indictment says he provided false information to law enforcement. False information to law enforcement. What would that be, Bob Audet? Basically lying about everything. About the circumstances behind his grandfather's death,

about the boat, about the sinking, about what happened to his mother. He lied about it all, according to the indictment. I'm wondering, Andrew Norris, whether the circumstances surrounding the grandfather's death will come in in the trial regarding his mother's death. What do you think? Well, it certainly would. And the interesting thing is, so he's charged with eight counts. Seven of them are fraud related.

One is the account for murder. And it should be pointed out that if convicted of murder in the first degree, the punishment is life in prison or death. So first degree murder is capital offense. Second degree murder is punishable up to life in prison. What makes something first degree murder versus second? Well, principally that it's malice aforethought, that it was planned. And so the evidence of the planning for the killing of his mother is what will be relevant in his trial. But I would think that in proving that he, the planning element of his mom, that this wasn't just an accident, the prosecutors would also be attempting to bring in evidence showing this sort of continued plan by him to further the case that he committed

first degree murder in this particular case. I mean, the guy just got almost a million dollars, nearly $600,000 already. What? He can't be happy with that that did he have to kill his mother to get all of her millions take a listen to our cut six wcvb nathan carmen and his attorney are seen here arriving this morning at federal court in providence shortly before opening statements began in the civil case brought against carmen by the insurance company for his sunken boat chicken pox carmen filed an eighty five thousand dollar claim for the loss of the by the insurance company for his sunken boat, Chicken Pox. Carmen filed an $85,000 claim for the loss of the boat. The insurance company has rejected that claim. During opening statements this morning, the attorney for the insurance company told the judge hearing the

bench trial, quote, this is a case about a boat that left Point Judith with holes in it and sank 12 hours later. The plaintiffs claimed that Carmen made modifications to the 31 foot vessel that voided the insurance policy saying quote he made it unseaworthy listen that boat went down so fast I suspect that that boat probably went down within the first 10 or 15 minutes out that didn't much that's a fast sinking problem right there we also should point out that half a million dollars was pretty much gone by the time he pushed off from tour. What happened to all that money? Just in a way, somehow. I mean, who the hell knows?

I mean, isn't he living at home with mommy? My understanding was no. He has a house in Vernon. It's his own house. Nathan owned that house. According to tax records, that house belonged to Nathan in Vernon. Bob Audet, what house belonged to him? The house in Vernon where he was arrested. And was that once part of his grandfather's estate? As far as I'm seeing on tax records online, he held the deed. Nathan held the deed.

Right. Was it bequeathed to him? Was it once part of the grandfather's estate? No. I believe Nathan bought that. So it says that he bought it in October 2014. Would be a little less than a year after his grandfather was murdered. What were you saying, Dr. Heine?

I wanted to just point out, Nancy, so you're aware of it. You mentioned he was 28 years old. He is now, when he killed the grandfather, he would have been about, I think, 19 or 20 and the mother about 22. So he was younger, not to say that that exonerates him, it clearly doesn't, but it'll bring in issues of brain development and in terms of his awareness of, you know, the consequences. So let me understand something dr heidi this is a guy who just got nearly six hundred thousand dollars and he still wants more money that's what it appears to be um i mean it let's put it this way if he isn't involved in orchestrating the deaths

of his grandfather and father it's quite possible that it was done for a financial motive and greed. And I've had cases where offspring have killed parents to basically hasten their inheritance. I mean, that reminds me of the Menendez brothers. I was just going to say the Menendez brothers. Yeah, perfect example. Although they claimed they were molested by the father. Why shoot the mother too? She was crawling down the hall trying to get away? To Bob Audet, where does the trial stand, the criminal trial stand right now? The judge detained him until a detention hearing on May 16th,

and prosecution urged the judge to have a mental health evaluation between now and then. We wait as justice unfolds. Can this murder case be proven not only without a boat, but without the mother's body? Why would an adult son murder his own mother and his grandfather? We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye.